GENERAL ASSEMBLY

Globe, Volume VIII, Issue 1002, 11 September 1877, Page 3

GENERAL ASSEMBLY

[By Telegraph.] [per press agency.] HOUSE OE REPRESENTATIVES. Monday, September 10. The House met at 2.30 p.m. hawke's bay land transactions. Sir G. Grey gave notice that if the committee on the Hawke’s Bay land transactions was appointed he would move an instruction to it to inquire into the charges against Mr Ormond and against Sir George Grey in the House, in reference to land transactions. The debate was resumed on Mr Rees’ Hawke’s Bay Land Committee motion.

Mr Cox desired to make a personal explanation. In January, 1807, Sir George Grey visited the South Island as Governor, and spoke to him of the advantages offered for grazing purposes by the North Island. Nothing more took place till lie came to Wellington during the session of 1807. Mr Henry Russell then came to him, and quoted Sir George Grey’s and other opinions about the nature of the grazing country in the North. He then, at Mr Russell's request, went and had an interview with Sir George on tire matter. Had in all three meetings with him. At the first he told him that several gentlemen were prepared to form a company to take up country. He told him they wanted from 250.000 to 300,000 acres if they were as good as he represented, and told him fully their plans. It was to bo south of Lake Taupo, and the precise locality was indicated. A tew days afterwards another interview took place. At tiro outset Sir G. Grey made a proposition in the words, “ Would it in any way interfere with your .operations if I was allowed to take a share in your venture ?” He (Mr Cox) at once said there would be no objec tiou. The intended operations were then discussed, and the probable amount of capital required was mentioned, he saying that £SOOO each would probably be required to carry on operations on a suflieicnt scale. Sir G. Grey made many suggestions, amongst others that the Maoris should have a claim on them for provision for (he support of themselves and children, that they should be none the worse off by the company’s operations. He left with the full impression that Sir G Grey wis a parluer in Hit- transaction, but lie was not ivrcpared Lu cult 1 into a discussion a? to the legal meaning of the word partner. But the affairs of the company were fully discussed with Sir G. Grey, under the impression that he was a party concerned In the transaction. He quoted a number of definitions of what constituted a partnership. A third interview took place, and the first thing said by Sir G. Grey was—“ 1 must ask to be allowed to retire from this proposed partnership. I have reasons for this request. I cannot afford to give ray enemies a chance of representing or misrepresenting that I am conpected with any irregular transaction. Erwin tlaat day Sir G. Grey Iwd potuiug more

to do with the matter, as his request was at once complied with. The idea of Sir Geo. Grey being corruptly connected wall the transaction had never occurred, and if any such impression or insinuation had got abroad, it was entirely mistaken. He had never anything to justify such an xmpi’ession, and there wais no ground for it. He did not know whether Sir G. Grey ever knew who the persons were who were to be the members of the company at the time of the interview. He believed Sir G. Grey did not.. Sir G. Grey gave them certain letters to natives, and' he and Mr Russell, with Mr Locke, w’ent up to Taupo, hut only saw one of the persons. They then returned to Wellington. Subsequently Mr Locke was sent up, and there were then others in the held. Mr Locke was urged by Mr Russell to push matters on. Mr Locke went up several times, and negotiations went on for some six months, till near the end of 1868, when, for many reasons—amongst others To Kooti’s proceedings—the project was be abandoned. When he had heard Sir G. Grey talking against any man having above fifty acres, he had said to members that he was tempted to get up and tell the story of the Taupo company, and of his having had a great deal to do with inducing him to come to the North Island and investing in land. Ho only did this to expose Sir George Grey’s inconsistency. He now came to the letters. When he saw Mr Locke in the street he asked him if he remembered anything about his instructions as to the Taupo affair. Mr Locke said he thought he had the letters. He then said he would like to sec them. A few days afterwards Mr Locke brought the letters. He read, and re-read them, and said that every one of the seventy-eight or seventy-nine letters, except part of one postscript, referred entirely to this Taupo transaction. All he had stated was fully confirmed by these letters. He had told Mr Ormond what the letters contained, and he gave Mr Ormond permission to read them with Mr Locke’s consent. Ho believed that consent had been obtained. Had he been consulted he would have objected to the way in which the matter had been brought before the House. He had not known the matter was to be brought forward. No one but Sir George Grey, Mr Russell and himself could give direct evidence as to what took place at the interviews between them. He did not approve of the course adopted by Mr Ormond of using these letters, but be could not say what he might have done himself had charges such as those made over and over again against Mr Ormond been made against him. If such charges bad been made, he too might have allowed his tongue to run away with his reason. Mr MacFaulane thought the matters in dispute must ultimately come before the Supreme Court, and should go there at once without [the intervention of any committee. Ho would willingly see money voted to assist the Natives having a thorough investigation by the Supreme Court.. He moved the previous question. Mr L C. Brown asked Mr Cox whether the Taupo land company proposed to buy or lease the land. Mr Co v said it was intended to lease, not buy, the land. Mr Hursthouse confirmed the statement just made by Mr Cox, saying he (Mr Cox) told him last session substantially all he had told the House just now. Mr Cox, he said, did not impute any corrupt motives to Sir George Grey, but merely his inconsistency in denouncing in others what he as Governor sanctioned, and was prepared to take a share in. He thought the House had had sufficient explanation of these matters by this time, and he would vote against a committee of any sort. Mr Stout said he had been waiting for the Minister of Public Works to withdraw the accusations made against Sir G. Grey as he had not been supported in his statement by Mr Cox. If a member gave the House to understand a Governor of the colony had thwarted a public company until promised a share of the plunder, and had said he had authority to use documents which he had not, it was duo to his position as Minister of the Crown and to the dignity of the House that such accusations should be withdrawn. Mr Ormond said he did not withdraw his imputations on Sir G. Grey because he considered them sustained by Mr Cox’s statements. He brought forward his statements to show that Sir G. Grey’s statements last session were inaccurate. Last session Sir G, Grey had contradicted similar statements when made by Sir D. McLean. Mr Cox had told him that this dcmaljwas inconsistent with facts. Ho had not used the term purchase, but had accused Sir G. Grey of attempting to acquire country. He did not on perusing the letters acquire a single new fact beyond what Mr Cox had previously told him. He had been accused of unnecessary bitterness. He had spoken under frequent and gross provocation. He had since compared his speech with some of those of Sir G. Grey’s and Mr Rees and his was nothing in comparison. Ho did not say it was desirable to use strong language, but men were mortal, and could nut always rest still under such charges as bad over and over again been made against him and his friends. He had at last felt bound to reply and retort on those who had made such attacks. Ho believed Sir D. McLean had actually been murdered in this way, and that, had it nut been for the false charges made against him last session, he would have been alive now. The only mistake he had ever made was as to the time Sir George Grey was a member of the Taupo company. He had been under the impression that it was for a. longer period than was started by Mr Cox. He would not withdraw a word he had said regarding the Orakanui affair. The amendment to have his conduct inquired into was moved the other night by Mr Whitaker at his especial request. It was the Opposition, not the Government, which had thrown tins out. He had no objection to the fuller inquiry. It wordd be a shameful wrorg to the people of Hawke’s Bay to appoint such a committee in the way asked for by Mr Roes. Many of the eases were pending in the Supremo Court, and the House should not go behind it. He tlar-lore supported the previous question lie believed >i special commission was the only means o! sifting all the Hawke’s Bay land transactions thoroughly, and people there would be glad to see such an inquiry instituted. Mr Bunny urged the production of the letters, as from quotations made by Mr Ormond in the first speech, he had gathered a very different impression from that borne out by what Mr Cox had said. Air Cox said that the term of lease proposed by the company was twenty-live or thirty years. Mr Carrington said Air Ormond’s first ■ speech hud created a very unfavorable ita*

preesion as to Sir G. Grey’s conduct, but this had been removed by Air Cox’s speech. He should, therefore, vote as a man of honor and a gentleman.

Mr Barer strongly condemned the tone of the debate, and the example set by Mr Ormond. As a former colleague of Air Rees in the Westland County Council he defended him from the imputations made by Mr Ormond. He believed if Air Rees stood for the representation of Westland he would be returned by three to one against Air Ormond. Air Lusk said ho had been listening to a Alinister of the Crown to-day repeating slanders, knowing them to be slanders, uttering untruths when a few minutes before he had the opportunity of learning the truth. He did not think members, when entering the House, left their characters as gentlemen behind them, but he could not reconcile Mr Ormond’s conduct with that character. He maintained that a committee could inquire into matters which the Supreme Court could not, and afford valuable information as to the policy which had been pursued, and which it was desirable to pursue, in dealing with Native lands. He did not think a commission was desirable or proper. It was with the view of endeavouring to find from what causes the Hawke’s Bay difficulties arose, and with a view of avoiding them for the future, that he would support a committee, not from any personal motives. He appealed to the Government not to make such a mistake as to endeavor to stifle inquiry. Mr Bowen deprecated indulgence in personalities and invectives, but for thx-ee years members of the Government had been subjected to constant attacks, not on their policy but affecting their personal honor. The imputation of using their position to give big estates to their friends was one

of these. The Government had sat patiently under the most gross imputation, because they did not desire to impede public business, and they had been taunted until they were at last provoked beyond measure. When a resolution aimed at him was brought forward Mr Ormond retaliated. A cry was raised about personalities being indulged in. Were Mr Wakefield and Mr Barff men entitled to lecture Mr Ormond on propriety of conduct. No member who spoke without party feeling could deny that Air Ormond had been more provoked and insulted than any member of the Opposition. The questions at issue about Hawke’s Bay land transactions were now avowedly going before the Courts of law, and therefore the House should not interfere. When the House had refused to inquire into specific matters indicated in Air Whitaker’s amendment which Mr Ormond desired to be inquired into, it should certainly not enter on a g neral inquiry into matters ponding before Courts of law. Dr Hodgkinson said the country would accept the Government opposition to enquiry as an admission of the guilt of those whose character was impugned. Mr Woodcock thought a committee could not do any good, and might do a gx-cat ileal of harm to 1 lie people of Hawke’s Bay. All who were concerned woxild have to be sunxmoned here. Inquiry should be restricted to specific charges of malpractices, cither against Air Ormond, or other charges made against Mr Ox-mond must be enquired into, one way or auothei’, cither by commission or coxxxmittee. Air Montgomery thought Mr Cox’s statexnexxt enthdy exoxxex-ated Sir Geox-ge Grey from the serious imputations cast on hixxx by Air Ormond. He strongly condemned fixe personalities which had beexx indulged ixx oxx both sides of the House, and ho thought that Air Ormond’s speech, made in a cold-blooded way, was in no way justified by what might have been said weeks before.