GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume VIII, Issue 969, 3 August 1877, Page 2

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

[iir TELEGRAPH. PEE PRESS AGENCY.] LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Thursday, August 2. The Forest Trees Planting Encouragement Bill was read a second time, after various members speaking. The Bill is to be committed on Tuesday next. BILLS PASSED. The following Bills were passed—Friendly Societies, and Industrial and Provident Societies Bills. LUNATIC ASYLUMS. Dr Pollen, replying to Captain Fraser, said the (rovernment intended to carry out, as soon as possible, the recommendations contained in the report of Inspector-General of Lunatic Asylums on the Dunedin and other Lunatic Asylums. The necessary funds required first to be appropriated. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Wednesday, August 1. The House resumed at 7.30 p.m. NOTICES OP MOTION. Air Rees gave notice of a motion condemning any Ministry that used its influence and means in defending an action brought by one private individual against another to recover damages for alleged libel, and that after the distinct expression of the opinion of the House last session, that House regards the conduct of the Government in still carrying on the u Waka. Maori” as highly reprehensible. He also gave notice of a motion for a committee to inquire into the circumstances under which the Bunk overdraft of the Thames was paid by the Government. CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS BILL. The debate on the Charitable Institutions Bill was continued by Sir G. Grey, who commented upon the poverty of the speech with which the hill was introduced by Mr Reid. Justice was not done to the House in that speech. In fact, important principles were concealed that took away the rights of the people. The hon. gentleman then narrated all that had been done by himself in establishing charitable institutions throughout the colony, and under which no human being was allowed to suffer dire extremity. These institutions, presided over by Superintendents, were more efficient than any system that could possibly be managed under any central authority. Disguise this Bill as they may, it wasa poor law —nothing more. If Government had intended to perpetuate a race of paupers they could not have devised a better plait than their Bill. The lion, gentleman went on to say that the Government had done all they could to reduce the native race to paupers, notably at Tauranga, where their land had been taken without being open to public competition. The friends of the Government, even the Land Purchase Commissioners, had been allowed to acquire enormous fortunes in the land. Ten thousand acres of coal mine land was given to one individual to enrich him. Higher up Waikat o a similar thing was done. Borne down by grief at these things he had been thinking of fleeing from a country where such tilings could be, but at last he made up his mind to attack,, and never cease attacking, these monstrous, wrongs until justice was done. Every human being had a right to subsistence from theState, and to call that communism, as thePremier did, was outrageous. It. simplymeant pillage. The poor had as much riglu to subsistence as they had to air. To hand over the control of charitable institutions, asproposed in the Bill, was an abdication of the functions of the Government. The Bill would corrupt the charitable as well as the poor. The Government ought to have said during the recess—“ We will appoint a commission, as was done in England and Ireland,” and they would have furnished information on which to frame a Bill. Until the Bill was prepared the old institutions should have been kept going. He objected to the subsidies forthese institutions being taken from Customs duties. Why not take it from the- incomes and land of the wealthy, and, the squatters whojmade the land a desert ?• They worn told that what the colony wanted was ’political | rest. Did ever minds grovel so before ? i Did any nation ever reach greatness bv political rest ? Were the men who uttered such a sentiment fit to lead a young nation j forward ? I Mr Bowen said he failed to gather, alI though listening attentively to ascertain, what 'the hon. gentleman would propose instead of j the Bill. As he always did, whether apropos i or not, the lion, gentleman continually made j vague charges against the Government, indi- ; vidually and collectively, but they were made in such a way that it was impossible to reply to (hem. They would be only 100 glad lo court enquiry. The lion, gentleman had talked of depriving the people of the land, but he well remembered that when Sir George Grey was Governor he enabled land outside of Christchurch to he sold at 10s per acre, in spi.G> of the indignant remonstrances of the people of Canterbury. The gentleman spoke of a poor law as a charier of rights. Well, hr could only say God help she country that looked upon a poor law as a charter of rights. England- was the oulv country where it was held the destitute hair a claim upon the r.\U-s, and yet there was no country in which there were more deaths from pauperism,- Referring to poor law rates, hesaid ii rates were high, wages would be low, and it would be better to. have low rates and high wages than high rates and low wages. The system proposed was not new, it was working very well in Otago and elsewhere. Ho might refer to one evil which existed under the old system. Some who could well iUiord paying for hospital assistance pvevt’di Upon the State, and that lie called plundering the poor. The right of maintenance, as it was called, was ready the right to survive, and in England had the effect of encouraging the worthless to lead a life of idleness. Certainly no honest poor man ever looked forward with, satisfaction to the charity of tin; State, Mr Ma NUKUS, speaking for the district, ho came from, said flic people there would be quite prepared with a subsidy of pound fair pound to take ciuv of their poor. Mr Russell pointed out that the qeiestiun was essentially social, but ho f«sirud the. oiuqucnt speeches of the member for the Thames gave it a political character. The Bill hail nothing to do, with paupers, and (hey should not have been dragged in. They had no pauper class, and the Bill was only intended lo deal with extraordinary cases. There was no likelihood of a pauper class springing up For very many years, and he ha'.:, no fear of private sympathy failing in the colony. There were numbers of institutions in England supported without State vr- cuduwuiwutj ettiwty ty pi-ivata

benevolence; and there were not the great fortunes here there were in England, but there was more wealth in proportion to the population, and the people of Hie colony were as benevolent. The Act was a good one. It reminded him of a person travelling over a plain and saving there was no walor. Only let him sink artesian wells, and he would find a perennial flow. So with this Bill. Let them once tap the springs of private charity, and they would find a perennial How. Mr Delatouk considered the Bill as much a poor law as any in existence. If. was said over and over again that the Bill was the same as the Otago system, but it should be remembered that the Otago institutions were a growth, not a creation. The miners first established them, and then called upon the Provincial Government to give them what help they could. Mr Swanson would give the Government all the assistance he could, as some measure was imperatively needed, but at the same time he hoped they would withdraw it. He was surprised at what fell from the Government, that the poor man had no right of subsistence. Let a man starve his children, or throw himself over the wharf, and it would soou be discovered that children were owned by the State ; or if a man attempted his own life, he would have to answer to the State. Let Government make provision for these institutions out of a personal or property tax, and he would support them. The Government ought to find sites and build Government institutions on them, so that poor people could go there and demand assistance, lie did not like the voluntary system. People ought to be made to do their duty. There would always be an enormous field for private benevolence after the State did all expected of them. To provide for the destitute of a country from private contributions would be found as impossible as to suckle a child at the breast of a stone statue. Mr Rowe told the House how well the system worked at the Thames, but he forgot that all their worst cases came to Auckland. They came from all round, and from vessels, and they all had to be kept somehow, Mr Bastings would feel constrained to vote for the amendment that Bill be read that day six months. He demurred very strongly to that part of the Bill which threw upon local bodies, orphanages and reformatories. If the Government did not soon take charge of reformatories they would entail cost to the country.

Mr Joyce said, though ho had accustomed himself to defer to a certain member of the House (Sir George Grey) he entirely differed from the line of argument be adopted. He touched subjects that should have been traversed on a fitter occasion, more especially, and to the purpose. As to the Bill he did not believe it would d<> all that was required, but it was a ■step in the right, direction, and would, while leading up to something better, do great good. It would stimulate the latent Samaritanism of the people, as was seen in the South. Whether Otago institutions were created or grew, it. appeared to him the same thing—they served their purpose and served it- well. Reference had been made to the difficulty ol collecting money, but lie apprehended little, even in ■country districts, for lie had seen shearers unasked contribute from their earnings towards hospitals. In fact, they did it customarily.

Mr Stott, in commenting on the Hill, said the speech of the .Minister of Justice admitted that large landed estates, as was pointed out by members for the Thames, were a cause of pauperism, but since ever that Government was on the benches they had taken no step to abate the cause of pauperism by legislation to cut up large estates. Still he agreed with the principle affirmed by the Premier, that a person had no right to come to t he Government for sustenance. For instance, lake two shearers. One took care of his earnings; the other squandered them. Were you to impose an additional lax upon the thrifty man to support the recklessness ol: the unthrifty ? Instead of the Bill not going far enough ; it went a deal too far. Why, when a school was established, it had only to bo called a charity school and at once become entitled to Government aid. Some restrictions should be placed to prevent this. Ho depre- | cated discouraging private beneficence which j had a most humanising and elevating effect, j He was astonished at the posit ion taken upon this question by Canterbury members, who all opposed provincial institutions last year, and yet wanted to retain what was part of that system. He would support the second reading. Mr Roheston would support Mr Stevens’s amendment that the Bill bo read a second time that day six months. He did so chiefly because there was not sufficient information before the Government to enable them to deal properly with this question. Referring to the statement of the Premier that the charitable institutions of Canterbury for the hist year, before being taken over, cost £29,000, he said that was incorrect. The only way he could have arrived at that was by including lunatic asylums and orphanages. The lion, gentleman argued at considerable length against the provisions of the Bill, especially voluntary contributions. He disagreed with the reference made to [the Knglish poor-laws by the Minister of Justice as having a pauperising effect, but that question hud been fought out nt home. Besides circumstances wore different, although lie did not admit poor-laws caused pauperism. The Bill was copied from the legislation of another colony, but lie hoped the House would not get outside itself in framing a Bill upon this question. Mr Wiiit. utek, referring to the many remarks made by the speakers regarding The poor laws, said, (.hough lie would not discuss tlic question at that late hour, that, the introduction of a poor law into the colony would be very mischievous. He feared that some speakers mistook the scope of the Bill when they said it made no provision for certain things. Charitable institutions would be much benefited by this —very much ; but it did not deal without poor relief or hospitals supported by permanent legal provisions. He denied that the pauper had any legal right upon the State. He might have a moral one, or it might be expedient, but. that was all. It was a mistake to say the Bill destroyed any institutions. Those supported by the Government would continue to be so supported until other arrangements might be made. This Bill had nothing whatever to do with him. He quite agreed with the suggestion of the member for Wanganui, as to the appointment of a commission to collect information and enquire into the whole question, so that next, session they might have the whole thing before them, along wit h the report of the Commission. There were two principles lie hoped would not be lost sight of, namely, that those who raised the money should have the spending of it. Mr Beyce said he was puzzled ail along to find out what the leading principle of the Bill was, but the speech, of the Attorney*

General completed his confusion. Touching upon the right of the destitute and improvident to demand assistance from the State, he said the true sequence of that was that the class of feeble, reckless, and improvident would gradually out-number the careful class, and ontail a state of things unpleasant to contemplate. He would support the second reading of the Bill, though he hoped they would be able to amend it in committee. Mr Kennedy would support the second reading. He failed to see why there should be any apprehension that large cities like Auckland, Christchurch, and Dunedin would not support their institutions by voluntary donations, especially when it; was remembered how ranch smaller places on the diggings supported theirs. He objected to the voluntary system being imposed on country institutions, while those in large cities would be supported by the colony. Mr Fitzroy, accepting the explanation of the Attorney-General, would support the second reading. Mr Stafford said the House was asked at short notice to solve a question that had not yet been solved in the civilised world. It could not be settled in days, nor years, nor probably, to give general satisfaction, so long as there existed those who had and those who had not; and if Hew Zealand did it, she would have succeeded in doing what had not yet been done. Ho regretted a commission had not been appointed. He pointed out that it must have been apparent for some time that a change must be effected in the way their charitable institutions were supported, because the land fund could not last for ever. Whether paupers had a claim upon the State or not, deserving paupers could not, bo allowed to starve among them —one such case, and the whole country would ring with it. He would vote for the second reading. Mr Brandon also supported the second reading. Mr Reid wondered should be so much misapprehension as to the Bill, when it was clearly explained that the Bill did not apply to any institution but those of which the managers applied to be brought under the Bill. The member for Avon denounced all the provisions of the Bill, but could not recommend anything in its stead. All experience showed that private charity decreased just in proportion as that of the State increased. He contended, in the face of all that had been said, that the only people to be entrusted with the management of charitable institutions were those who contributed to their support. He had no doubt whatever, from what had been experienced in this colony and other colonies, that if a commission was appointed, the result of that Commission would be that it would endorse the Bill with its imprimatur. Had the Otago Provincial Council existed another year the support of the hospitals would have been thrown upon the City of Dunedin; and ho ventured to say to those who were so eloquent about what they called their noble institutions, they would find that after the Bill became law these institutions would not be long before they came under the Bill. The hon. gentleman quoted from Victorian and Hew South Wales returns regarding the success of the voluntary system. The Inspector of Hew South Wales, in his report, stated that the Government was giving so lavishly that pauperism was increased. Owing to the lateness of the hour the lion, member cut short his remarks. The second reading was carried by 12 against 11, and the Bill was ordered to be committed on Thursday next. Clause 25 of the Bill is to be considered in Committee of (he Whole to-morrow. The House adjourned at 12 35 a.m. Thursday, August 2. The House met at 2.30 p.m. NOTICES OF MOTION. Mr Macandrew" gave notice to ask whether the Colony is likely to lose the services of Sir J ulius Vogel at the cud of the present year. Mr O’Rouke gave notice to move for a grant of £SOOO in aid of public libraries throughout the colony. Mr Stout gave notice to move that the Governor of the Colony be in future elected by the people of the Colony. " Mr Bees gave notice to move for a committee of inquiry into the practice of telegraph officials altering press telegrams without the consent of the senders. | THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. The Premier, in reply to Mr Brown | (Tuapeka), said it was not I,he intention of the Government to recommend any further nominations to the Legislative Council this year. DESPATCH TO EARL CARNARVON. In reply to Mr Stout, the Premier said the despatch of 9th January to Earl Carnarvon was written by His Excellency. PRESS TELEGRAMS. In reply to Mr Bees as to telegraph otlicials amending press telegrams, Mr McLean said, so far as he was informed, it was not true that they had altered or excised words from a telegram, but it was their function to decide what was press matter and what was private, a matter which affected the revenue considerably. RAILWAY TELEGRAPH OFFICES. In reply to Mr Fitzroy, Mr McLean said arrangements were being made for opening telegraph offices at all the principal railway stations. HILLS READ. The following Bills wore read a first time; —- Triennial Parliaments Bill, Manhood Suffrage Bill, Central Otago and South Canterbury Bailway Bill, Dunedin Drill Shed Reserve Amending Bill. the railway commission. Mr Burns moved for return showing the cost of the railway commission, with the individual expenses of each member, and when the Hinemoa was engaged, and her cost of maintenance during the trip. That commission took away several officers of Government, and it struck him if the duties of these officers could be carried on satisfactory during their absence their services might, bo dispensed with altogether. The commission, too, made railway management; worse than it was before. It was a mistake to suppose that any uniform tariff could be made mutually satisfactory to the Horlh and South alike. Mr OKMON D said the Hinemoa, was not engaged at all. The other information asked for would be furnished. As a matter of fact the tariffs were lower now than before. Mr Reader Wood said there was nothing but downright mismanagement of railways from one end of the colony to another. They went right in the face of the recommendations of the Auckland Commission, which said the rates were generally too high in Auckland, except from Auckland to Onchunga, which they conaide red reasonable. The first tiling the Government did was to double the fare ou that line, and now omnibuses were running alongside the railway full of people at Is, while the cars that changed 2s aud wout empty.

Mr Brown (Ashley) agreed with all the charges of mismanagement, and he hoped a committee of the Mouse would be appointed to inquire into the whole matter. If the Minister of Public Works intended to carry out the recommendation of the report he woidd find it result in lamentable failure, 4 /The motion was agreed to. WEATHER REPORTS. Mr Burns moved for a Select Committee to inquire into the necessity for the weather report ing and storm-signalling department; also to enquire into the working of the steamers Ilinemoa and Stella. Agreed to. LAND FOR EDUCATION PURPOSES. Mr Reynolds moved that a return be furnished setting forth the amount of town and country land in each provincial district for educational purposes, particularly whether held by the Government, Education Boards, trustees or corporate bodies. Mr Bowen expected to be able to furnish the information required in a few days. CONVEYANCE OP IMMIGRANTS. Mr Johnston moved for copies of tenders for present contract for conveyance from the United Kingdom of immigrants and Government material be laid before the House. Copies were laid upon the table. SURVEY OFFICE FEES. Mr Wakefield moved for a return of the amount of fees levied without the authority of law by the instructions of the SurveyorGeneral during t he past year. Mr Reid explained that the practice of charging fees for examining certain plans and maps had existed ever since he could recollect. The fact of some inconvenience being caused to the people of Canterbury was due entirely to a misunderstanding of the circular of instructions ; but that was withdrawn, and another issued more in accordance with what was desired. The object of charging fees was .not, for revenue, but to prevent the time of valuable otlicers being taken up and valuable worki g maps (of which there were no duplicates) becoming delapidated. They were, however, getting lithographed copies of these maps, so that the public could inspect them free. The amount realised by fees in Canterbury was :tkl, (5s (Jd ; in the whole colony U 33. Mr Gi SHORNE protested against such an unconstitutional taxing of Her Majesty’s subjects. By what authority was such a tax levied, and under what part of the revenue would it come ? Whoever heard of taxation by circular without even the authority of a Minister ? The motion was agreed to. THE VVAKA MAORI. Mr Ekes moved —“That the House if of opinion that it is unjust and unconstitutional for the Government to defend an action brought by one citizen against another, and that after a vote of the I louse last session striking out the item asked for the “ Waka Maori ” newspaper, and the strong expression of opinion that the Government shoidd not support the paper as before, and that their conduct in doing so was highly reprehensible.” “It should not be allowed that a servant of the Government should be allowed to go out of his way to commit a wrong and the Government to step in and defend him. That would upset all notions of justice. The Government saitl they could show that their servants were justified in what they did. In that case he maintained that these servants should be allowed to fight out their own case, because then they would be acquitted by the Court. He believed this case was costing not less than a hundred pounds a. day. The Government had no right to have a. publication that could be made the vehicle for calumnious attacks against any body, especially a member of tfie Legislature who happened to bo an opponent of the Government. If members of the Government were shown to be responsible for the libellous matter, the legal sequence of that would be that the members of the Executive could be placed in the dock as criminals. It .appeared to him that it would have been the duty of the Government to have apologised for the appearance of these accusations made in their paper. There was no doubt that would have set tled the matter ; but, no ; they must set up a plea of justification and then used the influence and money of Government to procure evidence. This kind of thing struck at all constitutional Government. Mr Whitaker said as the matter was now before a court of law it would be much better to allow it to bo settled there before bringing it before the House. The hour of 5.30 arriving, the debate was interrupted.