THE HON. MR. STAFFORD AT TIMARU.

Globe, Volume VIII, Issue 951, 12 July 1877, Page 2

THE HON. MR. STAFFORD AT TIMARU.

[By Telegbafh.]

[from the special reporters OP THE PRESSj Timaru, July 11.

The Hon. E. Stafford, M.H.E. for Timaru. addressed his constituents in the Mechanics' Institute, at Timaru, to-night. The time announced for the commencement of the proceedings was half-past seven o'clock, and by that hour a large number of persons had assembled in the Mechanics' Institute. Amongst the audience were Messrs Eolleston, M.H.E. for Avon, Mr Shrimski, M.H.E. for Waitaki, and Mr Edward Wakefield, M.H.E. for Geraldine.

The chair was occupied by his Worship the Mayor, who introduced Mr Stafford in a brief speech. Mr Stafford was loudly cheered on rising to address the meeting. He said—Your Worship and gentlemen, I have very great pleasure indeed in again meeting you. I have always had that feeling when I met my constituents in Timaru, as, indeed, ought naturally to How from the fact of having been so remarkably well treated by the people here. No member has been so well treated as I have been. From the first time I had any political connection with the people of Timaru —from the first time you asked me, unsolicited, to become your representative, there has not been one single amount of difference of any sort, so far as I am aware. It has always been a matter of pleasure to me to come down here and learn what your wants are. I may say also that it is a very great pleasure on the present occasion to come amongst you, because I have observed that that progress which has been so marked between every occasion of my visiting you before—that progress is more observable than it has ever been before. During the past twelve months both the town and the district have made really wonderful progress—a progress that is obvious to the most cursory observer; and that alone points out the fact that as representative of a progressive district I ought to—and you ought to as well—feel proud that you are members of a community which is largely taking advantage of the good things of the earth. Before I refer to matters of colonial and general interest you will naturally expect me to refer to a subject of very great local interest to you all. That is the celebrated Timaru breakwater. [Hear, hear, and cheers.] "When I last had the pleasure of addressing you I told you that I did not anticipate that the necessary legislative action for that work would be obtained without considerable opposition. I was quite aware of the jealousy and opposition entertained outside of Timaru and the immediate district, but I was not altogether prepared for the fact that even within the district there was an amount of opposition which, although not outspoken, yet was used to influence very largely the members of both branehes of the Legislature in opposition to the scheme. That opposition did then and does now exist, and there is no use concealing that fact. It is just as well, as a matter of business, that you should know that; and not only is there outside opposition arising partly from ignorance and partly from a sceptical doubt as to the feasibility of the scheme, but partly, perhaps, from other feelings of jealousy; but there is also, as I have said, within the district itself an amount of dormant opposition which makes its influence felt, although it is not very openly expressed. In addition to that, last year the Bill which was considered necessary to promote the work was rather specially placed. It was not, as it might have been in ordinary sessions, one of two or three Bills of the same character which would then necessarily be treated on their merits, but unfortunately, as I think, there was a rush of Harbor Bills, amounting in all to, I think, nineteen, and the aggregate demands of those Bills were very formidable. When they came to be totalled up together, speaking in round numbers—when these Bills were first presented to the Legislature—there was a demand for between £BOO,OOO and £900,000 of money, and from 400,000 to 500,000 acres as endowments in land. The amount of money asked for was £846,000. For one group of harbors to the South—Oamaru and Moeraki—4oo,ooo acres of land were asked for as an endowment. The fault was that the Legislature not unnaturally got more or less alarmed attheforniidableness of the aggregate demand, more especially the members of the Legislative Council. They said, "If we are going to have all this absorbed for harbors we shall have nothing left for anything else." And therefore, I think, there is no doubt that the question of the Harbor Act was very largely prejudiced, from the fact that so many Bills of an analogous character were submitted at the same time. Now, as I am referring to that, I am very happy to see a gentleman opposite to me who gave very considerable assistance in getting the Bill passed, as far as the money endowment was concerned —I mean Mr Eolleston. [Hear, hear, and cheers.] I am aware there is a feeling entertained that Mr Eolleston has been opposed to this scheme from the first. lam not prepared to say what his real opinions on the practicability or impracticability of the work are. He has never told them to me. But I will say this —that, whatever his opinions may have been, he gave the very greatest assistance in reserving that £IOO,OOO for the furtherance of the object; and if he entertained opinions opposed to the work he deserved all the greater credit for having taken a course of action which certainly tended to further that work. It was quite true that the Provincial Council in two sessions had appropriated this money, but these appropriations had lapsed, and if Mr Eolleston had not included the amount in the estimate of requirements between the 30th June and the 31st of December last, it would have been much more difficult to have got the Government to assent to that money being set apart for the purpose. [Hear, hear.] I approached the Government on the subject before the session commenced, but got no conclusive answer except that it would be taken into favorable consideration. I have been long enough in the Government of this colony to know what "favorable consideration"' means, and do not therefore attach very much importance to a communication of that nature. It was very little better than saying that they could not accede to the scheme. When I went to the Government after the session began, they met me at once by saying that the matter would be largely facilitated if Mr Eolleston included that sum amongst the other requirements during the six months which would accrue between the 30th of June and the 31st of December last. That was done; and to another gentleman also you arc considerably indebted. I refer to the Hon. John Hall. That gentleman took charge of the I Bill in the Legislative Council, and no person 1 took more trouble than Mr Hall did, both in

and out of the Council, to get the Eill passed in the shape you desired it. [Hear, hear.] After the first vote, which threw out the landed endowment, Mr Hall used all his influence to get members to reconsider the question, and to give their support to the Bill. In fact, he did all he possibly could towards getting the endowment clauses passed. Since I have become aware of certain resolutions which were arrived at at a public meeting held here on Monday last, and I have to-day had the pleasure of receiving a deputation appointed by that meeting to see me on the subject of modifications in the Bill. It strikes me there is no rational objection to these modifications which the Legislature can take. They refer to the constitution of the governing body. Mb doubt there is a great difficulty in securing the constant attendance of chairmen of Eoad Boards living at a distance to take part in the matter. At the same time, if you will allow me to make a suggestion, I should say that I think it would be unwise of the people of Timaru and the surrounding neighborhood if they turned their backs absolutely on the people living in the country. [Hear, hear.] These people can do a great deal to retard the work if they are incited to it, and they can do a great deal to promote it, if you show a desire to work harmoniously and cordially with them. [Hear, hear.'] lam glad to see that in the prsposed modifications you are to have the Chairmen of the Geraldine and Waimate County Councils placed on the Board, so as to keep up the link of interest between the people of the town and those residing in the country districts. Objection has also been taken to the 28th section of the Act, which requires that no work shall be commenced until it is submitted to a commission appointed by the Governor. It is quite true that hitherto the clause has not been any obstruction, because you have not yet asked the Governor to appoint a commission to consider any work, and therefore you do not know what the result would be if such a request were made. Still that is an objectkmable clause which is not to be found, I believe, in any of the other Harbor Board Acts. That clause was put in with the hope, the certainty, of securing the support of two members of' the Legislative Council, who said they would not vote for the Act if the clause were not put in the Bill. They distinctly told me that without that clause they would not Tote for the Bill. Therefore I thought it better to have the clause inserted in order to secure that £IOO,OOO as a certainty—a nest egg—even if in after years it was found necessary to have the clause struck out. I hope you will consider the discretion I exercised on that occasion was not misplaced. [Hear, hear.] I think there will be no objection to repealing the clause if you leave certain power, which, I think, the Governor and the Government have a right to ask where so large an amount of money is at stake, and where large endowments are required for the prosecution of the work. I do not know that there is anything more I should say specially on this subject. I think you will not question for a moment that all my energies and any little influence I possess will be exercised to give effect to your wishes in this matter. [Hear, hear.] I have, as you are aware, always declined to express an engineering opinion on the question. It is not for me to do so, but when I find a very eminent engineer propounding a plan which has not yet received a criticism from any person competent to give an opinion upon it, I am prepared to say that that plan deserves a fair trial. I am quite aware that amongst the Public Works officers there is a difference of opinion, but I do not recognise that they are competent persons to criticise any proposals of Sir John Coode. Prominently amongst those who express a difference of opinion is one whose own works are not beyond criticism at all. [Hear, hear.] He has shown no competency as a marine engineer, and as a land engineer he has failed to show that care which is necessary to ensure that the public money is not wastefully expended. Until he is beyond criticism in his own department I think it would be as well for him not to attempt to criticise so eminent an engineer as Sir John Coode. I don't know, gentlemen, that an account of the actions of the past session would be very interesting to you. So far as I can see the probabilities of next session will be far more in accordance with the predisposition of colonists, rather to look forward than behind. I will say this, however, that, having been for more than twenty-five years connected with political matters in New Zealand, I never recollect a more dreary or profitless session. One section of the members of the House made a protracted fight during the session. I don't say one word about the action these gentlemen thought fit to take. If they thought they were right, it was perfectly open to them'to take the opportunity of expressing their opinions. But, gentlemen, they, as well as the other members of the House, must have arrived at a foregone conclusion as to the course of the debate, but yet, with what Shakespere calls a " damnable iteration," they kept on, and the effect was to drive members out of the House, and to protract to a wearying extent a most profitless debate. The result of this was that there was a great accumulation of work thrown on to the end of the session, and the discussion of most important questions, such as education, &c, were driven off entirely. In referring to the action taken by a portion of the members of the House, I may say that this does not apply to all of them, because a number of those who at first associated themselves with the party I have spoken of, declined to take further part in a factious opposition and great waste of time. Therefore the waste of time was due to a very small knot of members. As regards next session, I do not think that this waste of time will be repeated. There has been a very large defection from the party, in the shape of those members who, as I have already said, disapproved of the very great waste of time in profitless discussion. 'The subject of Separation will, I suppose, come up for discussion this year. It will, I think, be productive of profitless discussion, because, so far as I can see, I think the result arrived at will be similar to that of last year—namely, that there will be an overwhelming vote against it. One subject, to which I will just now refer, is the semi-political semi-public works system which has been introduced under the name of the County system. I think it is a pity that the counties in Canterbury have not given the system a fair trial. The ratepayers were ready to do their part in the matter of the election of worthy members, and I think, as I have said, that it was a great pity that the counties have here not to a larger extent —I think only one county has accepted the Act entirely—given the system a fair trial. [Cheers.] But while this is the case, it is also very peculiar to remark that the suggestions for amendment in the Counties Act; proceeded, not

from those who hare had experience of the working of the Act, but from those who Icnew nothing about its practical effect. Certain resolutions which had been cut and dried were passed, but it was one with closed doors, and in private, the reporters being excluded. We are not told whether the resolutions were pissed unanimously. My idea is, so far as the Act is concerned, that the permissive clause should be eliminated from any amended Act. I know some people say that the Road Boards are sufficient to carry on the work of the colony, but, be this aa it may, I hold that if the County system, is to be made of any value, it should be placed in the power of the people of the whole colony to say whether they will have it or not. Some parts of New Zealand, it may be remembered, have not the Road Board system at all in force. I may say that it is necessary to have something to act between the Govern - ment and the people. Hence, where there is no such body as the Road Board, the people require something. In the neighbouring province of Otngo, for instance, there is a large urea of country in which Road Boards have never existed. Thus there is a necessity for some provision for local government, and I think, therefore, the County system will supply the want. There is one work, however, which should be committed to the General Legislature, and upon this I hold strong opinions. That is the provision throughout the colcuy, from one end to the other, of the" means of speedy _ and safe locomotion [Cheers.] This _ is a point which I have always in my place in the Assembly advocated. I have not succeeded yet in obtaining it, but I hope to do so yet. It is desirable as a matter of policy as well as from a financial point of view. I will put it to you this way—ln a very short time we shall have our railway system opened up in this island from the Bluff and for fifty miles to the north of Christenurch. In the North Island railways have also been constructed in various parts. But there are parts of the colony—notably on the West Coasts of the Middle and North Islands, and other portions where railways have not been nor are likely to be constructed. They have not been included in the scheme, nor are they likely for years to receive the benefit of iY ilways, but the people residing in these localities have to contribute towards the cost of the construction and maintenance of railway's which are of no use to them. It would, I contend, be eminently unfair to them that some provision should 'not be made by Avhich improved means of locomotion should be secured to these people. If we are to have a united people, which I look forward to being one of the greatest, objects we should have in view, we should not have such disparity in this matter as now exists. That is, we should not have existing in one part of the colony far greater advantages in the matter of locomotion than in others, without making an attempt, so far as possible, to equalise them. [Cheers.] Therefore, as a matter of equity M well as policy, I say that the General Government should take up the construction of arterial lines of communication in those districts which have no railways. By this means you secure a uniformity of action, and, more than that, you secure the work being done properly. If not, you will have one county objecting to do a work, such as making a road through its boundaries, which is a necessity to open up an adjoining, and give access to the seaboard. For instance, the County of Wairnrupa would not, had it been necessary, have undertaken the work of cutting through the Rimutaka Range to give access to the County of the Hutt. Therefore, what we all want to see is the Government undertaking to provide a system of locomotion from one end of the colony to the other. [Cheers.] Well, but it may be asked, and certainly will be asked, if the General Government and the General Legislature undertake the construction of the arterial roads and bridges, where are they to get the money to do it ? Because the consolidated fund is quite as heavily reduced as it well can be. Well, then, I saw we should throw a large amount of the land fund into it, as I think the land fund is the proper source to bear a share of the burden. Indeed I have always regarded it as a mistake that the land fund was not included in the Public Works and Immigration Policy, so as to have strengthened the scheme. And here let me refer to another matter which acts very prejudicially towards us here. If the land fund had been included in the scheme as bearing a portion of the burden of the works to be constructed under iy we should have been in a far better position on the home market. As it is now, when comparisons are made —as for financial arguments they very frequently are —between the revenue of New Zealand and other colonies, we appear to more disadvantage. This is the case, because in the returns the land fund of New Zealand is not included, and thus, when the financiers at home take our revenue returns, they only glance at the general totals. This results in a loss to us of nearly one-halt' of what it otherwise would be were the land revenue, as I contend it should be, included. In Victoria and New South Wales the land fund goes to help the total. Hence when the comparison comes to be made we are at a disadvantage as compared with these colonies. This is not reasonable, because we may have, as wo probably shall, to go on the London market again to borrow money to carry out our works which we may find necessary in the future. I should therefore like to see the land revenvte, as well as the consolidated or general revenue, brought into one total. It is a matter on which I have always felt that a change was necessary, and what I have seen has confirmed the opinion I have always held. We have heard u great deal about the land revenue, but really it is charged with so many burdens that it does not exist. I will tell you what are the proposals of the Government with regard to it, and you will see at once that what I have stated is a fact. So late as the 9th October, 1870, Major Atkinson made an estimate of the receipts from land revenue, in which he calculated them at £358,770, but shortly after this he proposed charges upon it to the amount of £416,483. Now where is your land revenue after that ? [Cheers.] The real fact is that the land revenue is being appropriated as fast as possible. Last year we had Education put on it. It is true it was said that it was for six months only. But gentlemen, I don't believe for one moment, nor can you, that education can be supported as wo should all like to see it and as it must, because a national benefit, without the land revenue comes in to aid it. lam in favor, as I told you last year, of throwing the charge of the maintenance of schools on the consolidated fund, and that the interest and sinking fund and the cost of the erection and establishment of such other schools as might be found necessary should also be paid out of the consolidated revenue. It is useless to think that we can only put

certain charges on for a time. Every year we shall find that we are called upon to provide for necessary wants. Departments must be kept up, and, though I want to see economy practised wherever necessary, the natural increase of the country will entail upon us increased expenditure in this direction ; besides which, the natural increase of children to which elementary instruction will have to be given at the cost of the State also entails a large increased expenditure. Therefore I say it is useless to talk of putting education on the land revenue for six months. The wisest course would be, as I have already indicated, to place a certain amount of land revenue on one side, and deal with all the rest as consolidated revenue. [Cheers.] This would be productive of good results, and would, I feel sure, be the cause of making us more national in our feelings. A fictitious land fund has been created—an absolute sham that cannot stand alone without support for an instant in the shape of treasury bills. Did anyone ever hear such a system of finance as this ? They say that out of the land revenue certain charges will come, but in four-fifths of New Zealand there is no land revenue. Therefore theyare going to create a land revenue by the issue of Treasury bills, which is supposed to be a temporary advance to the consolidated revenue of the State. Here they are called Treasury bills. Exchequer bills as they are called in England, is a supply given in anticipation of revenue coming in from Customs, &c.—but here, by means of the issue of Treasury bills, a fictitious land revenue is created, which, as I said before, is all a perfect sham. lam quite aware that the present Colonial Treasurer (Major Atkinson) admitted as fully as anyone could do that it was not a sound system of finance, and expressed a hope that it would only be required for the six months expiring last June. I don't know what his views now are on the subject. I have had no communication with him or any member of the Government on the question of finance. I have seen nothing but the published accounts, and these are accounts that only a very few experts can understand. The system of advancements, recoveries, and transfers, so complicated the the accounts that in one instance the revenue of the colony was made to appear £14,000,000 in one year. The accounts are so complicated that I do not profess to understand exactly how the finances are. At the same time lam not disposed to take the same gloomy view as has been taken by the " Lyttelton Times." I think it will be found that the small balance which the year commenced with, and the saving which has been made on the votes of the Legislature, will about make up for the deficiency in the estimate of receipts. There may be a few thousands short, but practically I think it will be very far short of the £200,000 or £220,000 which the "Lyttelton Times" assumed to be the likely amount of deficiency a week or two ago. Now last session a series of resolutions in the direction which I indicate, referring to the land revenue, were put upon the supplementary order paper by Mr Wakefield. I have brought these resolutions with me to-day. They created more or less interest at the time, and I may say I gave very great consideration to the subject, and that with the principle of those resolutions I cordially agree. The principle was that the net land revenue, after providing for the cost of surveys and land department (which are essentially a first charge upon it), should be divided into two portions, one of which should go in aid of the ordinary revenue for providing for the ordinary departments of Government, for the interest and sinking fund on all loans, whether colonial or provincial (provincial loans are already ebarged on the land revenue), for primary education, and oilier Executive services, such as gaols, police, asylums, maintenance of all railways constructed, and for arterial roads and bridges, and for subsidies to Road Boards and Municipalities in the proportion of pound for pound, and that the other moieties should be devoted to local roads and bridges, hospitals, charitable institutions, and penitentiaries, not being public gaols. I could not convince myself that such a plan would ever financially work. The proportion sought to be given for purely local works only was too large, and it would not have left anything. The consolidated revenue would not have had anything to meet all the charges thrown upon it by its getting one-half the nett revenue. Therefore I could not see my way to supporting the proposal. If persevered the principle was acceptable to me. The same principle being observed it is a question of proportion, as to the proportions to be paid into the consolidated account. In my opinion if the various localities got from 20 to 25 per cent they would be infinitely better off than they are under the present hand-to-mouth system, by which they do not know what they will get after the money is voted by the Assembly. The question is not without its complications. I do not know any question of great importance in New Zealand that is not a very complicated one. We have grown up under different systems, with different sympathies and supposed different interests, and whenever we try to act as one body we are met by vested interests and complications of different courses of administration and legislation, and this land question has prominently one lion in the path, and that is the disparity of the price at which the land has been disposed of in the various parts of the colony. I will take the case of Auckland and Canterbury, because they may be looked upon as exponents of the highest and lowest price systems. One, under the system of free selection, has always maintained a high price for its land. It began with £3 an acre when the Canterbury seltlement first started, and since the Constitution Act was brought into force, with the exception of a short interval, when Sir George Grey authorised land to be sold at 10s an acre, which was immediately taken advantage of by two large capitalists, but, with that exception, Canterbury has maintained the unvarying price of £2 per acre. It is difficult to say what Auckland had done with its land. It has given it away ; it has sold it at every sort of price, in scrip and for 4s and 5s an acre. [Laughter.] It is difficult to know what it has done in different cases. Up to 31st December, 1875, a return was made out showing the amount of acres disposed of in every Province of the colony, and the amount of cash which has been received in return for those acres, and this is how it worked out. In Auckland the land disposed of from tho foundation of the colony to the 31st October, 1875, was 2,128,225 acres. In Canterbury, the amount of land disposed of from the sth of July, 1850—only because before that time it was sold in England by the Canterbury Association at £3 an acre—to the 31st December, 1875, was 2,014,G96 acres. It is very nearly the same amount of acreage —rather less on the part of Canterbury by about 114,000 acres. Well, Canterbury, exclusive of what it had received for the land sold

in England at £3 per acre, received £3,128,126 in cash, which was devoted to public works mainly. There may perhaps have been a few appropriations which did not go directly to public works. Auckland only received for a larger amount of acreage £312,288. [Laughter.] And yet Auckland says in the boldest way, we are going to make ducks and drakes of our land, and you who have husbanded your land are to give us our share of the revenue. That is not parity of position, and until that lion is removed and a more common mode of disposal of land established, no satisfactory settlement of the question can be arrived at. I do not mean to say by that that there is to be only one system of selling land, because we must all recognise that a system which may suit one part of the colony may not be adapted to another part of it. In country densely wooded, mountainous, and full of deep ravines, the same system would not apply as would to Canterbury, where such facilities for agriculture are afforded. Here you have simply to put the plough in and get a wheat crop within eight or ten months after commencing operations. Canterbury and Otago have acted prudently in the disposal of their lands, and I am bound to say that Wellington also has shown some prudence in this matter ever since Sir Wm. Fitzherbert, the Speaker of the House of Representatives, became Superintendent of Wellington. That Province has since acted prudently with regard to the disposal of its agricultural land, and some of it lias been sold at £3 and even £5 an acre. But we must have some understanding as to the disposal of land in the future, and until that is done we shall not have such a complete system of finance as I should like to see in the colony. Therefore I declare that as a preliminary there must be some arrangement between those lands which have been recklessly dealt with and those which have been prudently dealt with. Gentlemen, there is a subject that we all feel an interest in, to which I have adverted to a considerable extent. The subject has also a local interest, in respect to the mode of administering educational matters. I may say I was very much disappointed, and expressed my disappointment in my place in the House last year, that when an Education Board was constituted for Canterbury there was not a Board appointed for the district south of the Rangitata. [Hear, hear.] I have had almost a positive assurance from the Minister of Justice (who is entrusted with the preparation and charge of educational matters to be brought forward next session) that there will be a separate Board for that district. [Hear, and cheers.] I don't know how those Boards are going to be constituted, but I have every reason to think they will be elected Boards, but I have no information on the matter of an official character. Then comes the question, how arc the schools to be maintained? After the question as to whether the consolidated fund with all the charges upon it can maintain without assistance primary schools, comes the question of assisting the consolidated fund, and making it larger, for it amongst other purposes. There are people who say they would like to see school fees charged or taxation levied to maintain these schools. Now, with reference to fees, even if they are small fees that would not be appreciably felt, they appear to me to have this disadvantage. There are many people who doubt occasionally whether they will send their children to school or not, especially when they arrive at that age when their work will tend to contribute towards the family resources. If a parent holds that doubt he knows that the sending of his children to school will have this effect—not only to deprive him of that child's services, but he will also have to put his hand into his pocket and pay the school fees. This very often solves the doubt, and the child is kept from school. For that reason I object to the system of fees, as it tends in many cases to discourage children being sent to school. On the other hand, if you are taxed whether you send your children to school or not, you will naturally say, "Oh, if I have to pay I will send my children." I don't know what the Government will propose; still less do I know what the House will accept. The whole question is one that ought to, and, I believe, will receive a great deal of discussion. Ido not know any question which will come before the Legislature during the next session which ought to, and no doubt will, receive more careful and anxious consideration than that of education. In connection with this is the question of the higher schools and Colleges, and on this last point I desire to say few a words. I know there are many who say that the State should not go beyond elementary education, and they use the argument that it is supporting the rich to the exclusion of the poor. But, gentlemen, this censuring is entirely wrong. The rich man will give his children education whether the Government provide the means or not. It is just the poor man who requires the aid of the State to educate his children in the shape of scholarships and higher schools. Gentlemen, I know instances within my own knowledge of sons of tenant farmers, and even of lower positions, in Scotland, who, through the system obtaining therein, have been enabled to take the highest rank in educational matters, which they never would have been able to do under other circumstances. It has always seemed to me a standing reproach on so great a country as England that they should have so neglected to contribute towards her system of education. With a revenue amounting to sixty millions, all that was contributed towards education was £OOO,OOO. Compare that with what is done in the colonies. While we find that in England the contributions to the cause of education is what I have stated, the colony of Victoria alone contributed one-third of its revenue. lam glad to be able to say that the colonists early recognised their duty in this matter. The old provinces of Nelson, Canterbury and Otago have shewn from the first a feeling that it was a primary necessity that elementary education should be afforded to the youths growing up amongst us. I can only express a hope that this is the leaven which shall leaven the whole lump, and that all parts of the colony as a whole will act up to the example set to it by the portions I have referred to. As regards the question of hospitals and charitable aid I desire to say a few words. I allude to it now because I think it is altogether owing to a mistake that the support of these institutions lias been thrown on the municipalities in the past. It was entirely owing to the fact that the Counties Act in many parts has not been brought into force. It was never intended that it should be so. My idea is that districts should be grouped with special reference to their ready access to the towns in which hospitals exist, and that the cost of their maintenance should be found pro rata. Of course the greater proportion of cases would be likely

to come in from the country districts, owing to the greater probability of accidents, but I think no fairer method could be adopted. [Cheers.] As we have now come to the full development of the Public Works and Immigration policy, and have arrived very nearly at the end of the works in connection with it, it seems to mo a very proper time to review what has been done in connection with it. In the first place, I may say that from the outset I gave a cautious support to the sell erne, although, as will be seen from my speeches which appear in "Hansard " and elsewhere, I was an early exponent of it. Why I did this was that, from the first, I did not approve of the mode in which the scheme was carried out. It was ill-digested and crude in it? application. Early in the year a scramble took place, the committee being invited by the Government to say what they wanted and promised by it that they would give effect to their wants ; but, putting this on one side, some of the works were pushed on in a hurried manner, to the exclusion of other works which would have been far more to the interest of the colony had they been executed. This hurry and its effects are now just beginning to be seen, as the work then executed has had to be reconstructed in many instances, and in others large repairs have been found to be necessary. I say this, and do so without fear of contradiction, that there is no country in the world, no line that I can think of, which affords such facilities for railway works as that between Timaru and Christchurch. It consists, as you know, of rolling plains, with shingle, which could be utilisad for ballast, close alongside, and yet we find that repairs of some magnitude, and, in some cases, reconstruction has been necessary; but it is not alone here. In the province of Marlborough they have a small railway of some twenty miles in length, which has had to be reconstructed three times. The line selected for the railway was one which, had those selecting it used their eyes, would at once have been seen to be subject to floods. It was a place where I myself, in clays before a railway was thought of, have seen a horse obliged to swim. There are other instances that I could give you, but I will not detain you by quoting other circumstances. Hurriedly and without any large amount of forethought this scheme was brought into work. This was the fault of the Legislature to a very large extent. My friend Mr Eolleston and myself attempted with others to stem the tide but unsuccessfully. So far as I can gather we have got a mileage of railways actually constructed, or in course of construction, of nearly 1000 miles, and this has cost us nearly £7,000,000, or that is about £7OOO per mile. The original calculation was from £3OOO to £3500 per mile. I admit that the original calculation has been altered by the increased price given for the land required for the railways. But this should have been known beforehand. The fact is that in many cases the lino was laid out and the rails actually on the ground before the purchases were completed, or in many cases before the negotiations as to price, &c, had hardly begmi. Of course the arbitrators, acting on the increased value naturally accruing to land from the making of a railway in its proximity, had no other course but to give their award accordingly. But I may say that, approaching it in this way, of course the cost was very largely increased. I believe that in many localities at the time, so keen was the desire to have a railway, the residents would have been willing to have given the land, and I think that yet they will do so, and that many branch lines will be made on these terms. The result of this lias been that we have got only about half of our money's worth for our money. It is true that the colony has advanced some twenty-five years by the carrying out of these works, but we have certainly expended double as much money as we have received value for, and this is mainly owing to the reckless way in which the scheme was managed at first. The blame of this state of affairs cannot be taken off the shoulders of the representatives of the country. They are primarily responsible for it. And when we talk about representative institutions we must not forget that if they are in accord witli the Anglo-Saxon character, they have their disadvantage when viewed financially. There is no doubt however about this, that the people of New Zealand are the most extravagantin the world. They seem not to care for the expenditure of money, without much reflection as to the means of repayment. This does not only apply to our public matters, but goes with us into our homes. [Cheers.] With regard to immigration, I may say that the number introduced up to date is 71,000. As to the cost, I am not in a position to state what the amount is precisely. I know that a million was asked and voted for it, and I think it is probable we shall find that this has been exceeded somewhat. I may say that I have always been dissatisfied witli the future of legislation for settling the people on the land. I said this in IS7O, but now we are worse off than we were, because our land is gone in the parts where the people on the land would be of infinite benefit to the colony as a whole. They could have been settled on the lines of arterial works, where capital and labor could have been interchanged. Had this been done the system would have worked infinitely better, and the results would have been far greater. The Premier, I am glad to see, has announced the intention of the G-overnnient to take means to settle the people on the land, but he lias given no indication of the mode which he proposes shall be adopted to secure this. It is now late to do this, as I think it should have been done before. Had this been so we should have reaped the benefit of it before our land was all gone, and before the millions had all been expended. However, lam glad to hear that something is to be done in the matter. There is one subject which is of great interest to the people here. I allude to the railway amff which has recently been introduced. On tin's subject I have received a telegram from the Hon. Minister for Public Works, addressed to the Hon. John Hall, which I will read you. It is as follows : —" I hear that you address your constituents at Timaru. As it is likely that some questions will bo asked upon the railway tariff. [Mr Stafford—lt shows how conscience pricks itself occasionally. (Laughter.) Evidently the Minister for Public Works had a feeling of conscience that it would be attended to. (Hear, hear.) I send you telegram addressed to Hall, which jo\i can make any use you like of. [Mr Stafford —I make this use of it, namely, to send it to you.] T have requested Mr Lawson to give the Agricultural and Pastoral Association any information re railway tariff you require, and which he may be able readily to give. Will you remember that on the Christchurch and Lyttelfon section the new tariff will produce £12,000 a year less than under the fate tariff, and that all railway borne produce and imports pass over that

piece of line and get the advantage of the uniform rate. The new tariff is a general reduction on late Otago rates, and is about the same as the rates heretofore charged on the North Island lines. It compares favorably with Victorian rates. The classification of goods was arranged by the Railway Commission, and will require modification as experience shows necessity. The new rate for stock trucks is, I see, objected to. I find the old Canterbury rate is very low, viz., for one floor trucks, twenty miles, 10s ; thirty miles, 13s 4d; forty miles, 16s 8d ; fifty miles, £l. The new tariff rate for one floor of sheep trucks is, twenty miles, 12s Gd ; thirty miles, 17s 6d; forty miles, £1 2s 6d; fifty miles, £1 7s 6d. Tht iiew tariff rate ior high sided goods trucks used for stock is, twenty miles, 16s 8d; thirty miles, £1 5s ; forty miles, £1 12s 6d; fifty miles, £2. I incline to alter the tariff for high sided goods trucks to the rate for one floor of sheep trucks as above quoted. The carrying capacity of one floor of sheep trucks is the same as that of the high-sided waggons, viz., thirty long wools or fifty merinos. The following alterations in the new tariff have been determined on, viz : Class E, grain; if less than two tons, then as per class D rate. Class F, coal; if in bags less than two tons, then as per class D rate. Also, I shall be glad to receive the views of the society after enquiry. J. D. OEMOND, Wellington." Mr Stafford—l shall give the telegram to the reporters, and you will all see it. [Hear, hear.] Well, gentlemen, I don't know that I need say anything more. You see the G-overnment are aware they have made a mistake, at all events in some items in the tariff, and have become sensible they have made a mistake, and admit they are prepared to make modifications. [Hear, hear, and cheers.] I don't know that there is any subject to speak about beyond those I have already referred to, except the question of separation. As to that question, I have only to tell you —certainly not for the first time —that I am an absolute and determined opponent of separation, and especially on the basis proposed last year. I should rather see the separation of certain portions of this colony than such a proposal as was made last year carried out. I should absolutely prefer to see certain portions of this island made into separate colonies, looking at it financially, and that is a point we cannot afford not to look at it from. The proposal made last year could never be accepted by the people of this island. No provision was made for subsidizing the ocean mail boats, or for the cable which keeps us in communication with Europe and the rest of the world, nor for any of those services necessary for both islands, and if either party failed to pay what was required of it the greatest disaster would ensue upon the other parts of the colony. When asked upon what basis the proposed division was calculated, Mr Eeader Wood stated frankly that it was on the basis that that is all we can pay and will pay. Well, gentlemen, we were not going blindly into such a trap as that. If there were a separation of the two islands on such a basis as that proposed last year, all the aspirations of my political life would be destroyed. I believe we are becoming much wider-minded and much more open to the sympathies and interests of others outside the narrow street we ourselves dwell in. I believe that the whole tendency of the age is that of people putting shoulder to shoulder,instead of separatin g them - selves into littlejbickering sets. Oddfellowship, G-ood Templarism and the like are but a recognition of the tendency of the age that it is the duty of man to co-operate with his brother man, and so make one common family for the common good of all. Therefore upon the very ground of expediency, sentiment, sympathy, interest, and finance, I shall be found to be a determined and consistent opponent of Separation. [Hear, hear, and cheers.] I have no doubt that the question will be debated next session, and perhaps very factiously, but I trust the same conclusive result as last year will be arrived at. I believe this will be the case not only next session but in subsequent sessions, whenever the question is revived. [Hear, hear.] Gentlemen, I have now touched upon all the subjects of which I had made a note, but I shall be very happy to answer any questions upon subjects to which I have omitted to refer or on which you may wish to have more full information. I thank you most cordially for the'attention which you have given to me, and the large attendance which is here to-night. [Cheers.] I only ask you to believe, in retiring, that I feel that no one could be better treated by any body of men than I have been by the constituency of Timaru, and I shall, so far as I am able, give you in return my best energies for the advancement of your interests and for the public benefit. [Loud ar.d continued cheers.] An Elector —I have received this document from the railway to-day. If the Minister for Public Works will tell me what it means I shall be obliged to him. Mr Stafford —I am not the Minister for Public Works, but, so far as I can see, it seems to be a receipt for fish. [Laughter.] Mr Archer said that he had very great pleasure in moving a cordial vote of thanks to Mr Stafford for his able address, and he would also ask the meeting to endorse a vote of renewed him. [Loud cheers.] Mr Hall would have very great pleasure in seconding the resolution. In reply to questions, Mr Stafford said, respecting the extension of the line from Opawa, that was not in his district. It was in that of the memberfor Greraldine. He might say, however, that it was one of the points brought under his notice by the deputation which had waited upon him that day. At the same time, he told them frankly that he thought there would be but little chance of it being carried, as so many places would be applying for branch extensions. With regard to the Local Option Bill, this had exercised his mind more than any other question which he had had to consider. It could not be denied that the habit of excessive drinking had in all Englishspeaking communities been the cause of much crime and disease, and the evil effects of it not oidy affected the individual but also those dependent upon him. He did not believe that human nature would be content to exist without stimulants of some kind. In all nations, whether savage or civilised, the use of stimulants of the nerves or brain power was common, and he did not think that they would ever be enabled to get rid of their use altogether. He would, however, say this much, that the principle of the Local Option Bill was one which deserved a trial. [Cheers.] He had not made up his mind to oppose it, and had very nearly made up his mind to support it. [Cheers.] He had not seen Mr Stout's Bill, but he knew that Mr Stout claimed for it that it was an improvement on the present one. Now, under the present law, ii the house was badly conducted it could be closed, but as he read Mr Stout's own defini-

tion of his Bill, he took it that if it was decided that a house should receive a license it could not be closed for three years. In this the present law was better than that proposed by Mr Stout. There was one point in which it certainly was an advantage, and that was that it recognised the principle of representative constitutions having a voice instead of the Licensing Bench in the granting of a license. He thought that this should be extended so that adult women should have a voice, because no one suffered more from the vice of intemperance than the wives, mothers, and daughters. As regards the dealing with the laws in 1880, he certainly was opposed most strongly to the granting of small tracts to the mining community. To do this would simply be to get. people into these tracts to starve. Tin's was a proposition which had been made from Waiimte, but he was de. cidedly opposed to it. He was of opinion that they should deal liberally with this question, but to carry out the principle to which he had referred would not in any way advance the interests of the colony. The Chairman inquired if any other person had any questions to ask. No further questions were asked, and the vote of thanks and renewed confidence in Mr Stafford was then put and carried unanimously, amid loud cheers. Mr Stafford—Gentlemen, you have again placed me under a very great obligation to you, and have given me very great encouragement to go on and merit your confidence in the future. [Hear, and cheers.]

The meeting terminated with a vote of thanks to the chairman.