GENERAL ASSEMBLY

Globe, Volume VI, Issue 692, 7 September 1876, Page 3

GENERAL ASSEMBLY

(Per Press Agency

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Tuesday, September 5. THE AGENT-GENERALSHIP.

Mr Lusk said he would vote for the motion of the member for Wairarapa. Because the question being made a Ministerial one was no reason why their should not be an expression of opinion. He did not look upon Sir J. Vogel as the right man for the office. It appeared to him that the question they were discussing was whether they should bestow on Sir J. Vogel the appointment which he had broken up a Government to obtain, and he thought the House should not countenance such a dangerous precedent. The policy of the present Ministry was economy, both here and at home, and whoever was to be Agent General should be one who could fall in with the wishes of the Ministry. Why the hon gentleman had no appreciation or conception of economy. He had increased the cost of administration within the last few years about £550,000 in this colony. He never showed economy here, and he was not likely to do so at home. If the Agent General’s office was to be wound up, as they were told, he did not know that Sir J. Vogel possessed any qualities in that direction. He had been connected with several things which had to be wound up, but they had always been wound up by others. He disagreed with the arguments of the member for Taieri, as unworthy of him. There was no occasion to buy bir J. Vogel with a billet of £ISOO a year, as he was going home in any case, and he only hoped he would be more successful in managing his private affairs than he had been in managing those of New Zealand. Mr Pearce deprecated the injurious practice that was growing up of the House interfering with matters that were purely executive. This was a case in which the House, or rather two or three members, forced the Ministry into the position of announcing what they intended to do in regard to the Agent-Generalship. There were only three points of objection. Taking the question of cost first, he would point out that it was utterly unfair to compare the cost of the New Zealand Agent-Generalship with that of any other colony, because none of them had carried on anything like the immigration or public works that New Zealand had done for the last few years. Speaking with some knowledge of the matter, hemaintainedthatif the matter were fairly looked at, it would be found that the Agent-General’s department had been not at all costly. Had they got their work at home done in the same way as was the case formerly, by commission, they would have had to pay £40,000 where they had only paid £17,000 or £IB,OOO. The hon gentleman pointed out that while they exclaimed against Sir J. Vogel for not being economical, and gave that as a reason why he should not be sent home, they were still loud in demanding that he should remain on the Treasury benches. He was accused of deserting his post, as if he alone of all the public men in New Zealandhad abilityenough to pursue and carry out the policy he had initiated. He for one would be sorry to take that view of the matter. Mr Wakefield took exception to the appointment on the ground that a Ministerial crisis was brought about in order that Sir J. Vogel should get the Agent-General-ship. It was a fitting ending to his whole career, which he believed had only one object, namely, his own aggrandisement—perhaps not vulgarly the mere obtaining of money—but the love of popularity and perhaps ultimately a renown in a larger sphere than New Zealand afforded. He believed the motives of the hon gentleman were selfish to the very core, and as soon as ever the Agent-Generalship ceased to aid him in his fortunes, he would kick it from him. They were told of the examples of other colonies in matters of this kind, but that was no reason they should copy everything other colonies did. A pretty mess that would soon land them in. There was a time when the statesmen of New Zealand could be pointed to as men of high j principle and purity of motives, but j that time had passed. It had been the I fashion to pass most flattering eulogiums on j Sir J. Vogel, such as that by the Native | Minister, both of whom seemed to have con- | stituted themselves into a Mutual Admiration | Society ; but the people would find that when the golden mist passed from their eyes, how basely they had been deceived. He sincerely hoped that when Sir J. Vogel and Sir D. McLean went home, they would be so prosperous that no earthly inducement would make them come back again. He dis agreed with the vicious principle enunciated by the member for Taieri, of buying off our enemies, though he believed that it would have paid the colony to give him £16,000 a year if he had lived in some remote part of the world for the last few years. The hon gentleman then went on to speak of the extravagance of Sir J, Vogel since coming into office. He received some £30,000, and had two trips to Europe ; and had found offices for six ex-ministers in seven years. He introduced the innovation of making the colony support a Minister’s wife and family when he was absent; was this man a sufferer or a martyr by this seven years’ service to New Zealand ?—a gentleman who drew twice as much, and profited twice as much as any other Minister since the Constitution Act, They heard a great deal about the patriotism of bir J. Vogel, bur patriotism was of various kinds. The patriotism of the member for Timaru consisted in living in New Zealand, that of Sir J. Vogel found vent in living on New Zealand. Why, he did not pass half the time he had been in office in the colony. The hon member referred to the “ banqueting speeches” of the hon member, and quoted an expression made use of then by the hon member, who in replying to what he called calumnies against him said that his dearest hope was to live and die in New Zealand, and in the September next he left the colony for sixteen mouths. Ho firmly believed that when the Premier called Parliament together in June he had foreseen the present position of affairs. It must have been noticed that the late Premier took no interest in the Government measures this session. Instead of his wonted fire and vigor there was nothing but languid apathy. He had all along this session looked upon the AgentGeneralship for himself, and it migne be fairly said that he appointed himself. It was perfectly absurd to say that the Ministry forced the office upon the late Premier. The hon gentleman argued that Sir J. Vogel purposely kept secret his intention, in order to aid him in carrying out the object he bad in view, namely, the most iniquitous job that was ever perpetrated in the colony. As to the help ha was likely to render the

colony at home, by repelling the accusations cf mischievous writers, he said the colony did not want or should not want, any help of that kind. As a matter of fact, the replies the Premier made to a couple of letters at home, really did the colony far more harm than the letters themselves. The hon gentleman endorsed all Mr R. Wood said with regard to Sir J. Vogel’s alleged overbearing nature and quarrelsome disposition. An opinion seemed to be entertained that the post of Agent-General should be given as a reward to the hon gentleman, but he utterly opposed such an idea. It appeared that, if the hon gentleman’s health required to be restored it would be cruel to detain him a moment, nor should he be burdened with any other duty than tbe duty of looking after his own private affairs. The hon gentleman accused the Government of trying to burk discussion on this question, and be thought it a bad omen that the new Ministry should treat them in that way. Month by month and year by year he had been strengthened in the opinion that our affairs had drifted into a wrong groove. The hon gentleman ridiculed the arguments adduced by Mr Pearce and Hon 0. C. Bowen, why Sir J. Vogel should be appointed AgentGeneral. In accepting the amendment of moving the previous question by the hon member for Dunedin, they fell into the trap set for their humiliation with a precipitancy that said but little for their judgment. But they would very likely find that it would result in increased discnssion.

Mr REESjaaid that three years ago he foresaw that the colony was approaching a period of very great peril owing the tactics of the hon member for Wanganui, and the great corruption of the public service; and referring to Hon C. O. Bowen’s argument, that the Agent-General should be a well-known administrator, he said the hon gentleman was far too well known at home already for the interest of New Zealand- Referring to the argument of the member for Taieri, that it would pay the colony to give the Agent-Generalship to one so dangerous and who demoralised the House, he asked would any man apply such a principle to his own affairs, and if not, why apply it to those of the colony 1 The post required a gentleman of high qualities to fill it, but the arguments used that night showed that the hon gentleman had possessed not a single one of those qualities. It was even said that his memory was not always in accord with those with whom ho might hold confidential intercourse. The hon gentleman travelled over the arguments as to Sir J. Vogel’s unfitness for the office. He accused the Ministry, as well as the member for Wanganui, of disingenuousness in regard to the appointment by telling the House the appointment had not been made while the bargain was made all the time. Mr Pearce had pointed to the state of the colony and the state of the Maoris in 1869, and to its position now ; but little as he had in common with the member for Timaru, be felt bound to say that the neck of the Maori war was broken by the troops of that gentleman—the Hunter’s and Von Tempsky’s heroes —who, while lying stark and cold, were called a bastard soldiery, by a member of the FoxVogel Ministry, when they got into power. Any peace we had since had been bought basely from a savage in a blanket, thus degrading our race, and as to the socalled statesmanship and that of those who filled the benches for the last few years, it was to get all the money they could, and purchase as much support as they could, to keep them in office. Coming to Sir J. Vogel’s qualities for the Agent-Generalship, the hon gentleman quoted from the telegram between Sir J. Vogel and Sir G. Grey, and asked if such insolence was a qualification for the post. Another of his qualifications was the destruction of those institutions which made the country prosperous and happy, and thereby making tens of thousands of people throughout the colony almost ready if not quite ready to take up arms. He challenged anyone to show a single thongnt originated by the Premier that was above that of the merest money-lender. The public works scheme was nothing but to obtain a lot of money to purchase majorities. Coming to the appointment, which he presumed was now made, he believed if it was endorsed by the House it would be done solely to keep the Government in office. Could a sick man. and one who had to attend to his private affairs—a man who was condemned by a large section of the House and by the press and people of the colony for his action in this matter—could such a man be said to represent the colony as its ambassador. If there was one man in New Zealand who ought to remain in the colony, it should surely be bir J, Vogel, who owed all he was to the colony, and who had spent all our money without leaving anything to show for it. If he had any pluck, or anything in him, he should have stood to hia post like a brave man and seen it out to the end. He hoped the House would stamp its condemnation upon this practice of placing in responsible positions men who should stand or fall at their posts. Mr Rowe replied to some of Mr Rees’ statements regarding the motives which actuated members in supporting the Ministry. He held that members who made statements of that kind without being able to substantiate them deserved the contempt of the House. As to the appointment, ho held that a more suitable man could not be found under the circumstances. There was ao doubt whatever as to hia general ability and knowledge of public affairs, and he believed he would do credit to the colony in the office.

The Premier said that he would not attempt to reply to the speeches,'which had been painful to hear, and the sooner they were forgotten by the House and the speakers themselves, the better It would be—it was impossible to please certain members of the House, and he did not intend to try, because it was impossible to meet them upon a common platform. He would always, however, be prepared to meet the Opposition on questions of policy as fairly as could be. Two parties opposed the appointment, one said there was no need of the appointment, and another said Sir J. Vogel was not fit. Although he told the House he would be prepared to discuss the question of continuing the Agent-Generalship next year, he did not wish them to think they were likely to do away with the office, because he did not think they could do so for some time, without great loss to the colony. He denied Ihe great expense of the Agent General’s office. IE they calculated the cost by the number of immigrants, they would find it about twelve shillings a head. As to his not being amenable to orders and his quarrelsome disposition, he was prepared to give both an emphatic contradiction. While be was at home there was cot a single

attempt to set his judgment up against that of the Ministry here, nor had he ever, while here, taken any responsibility without acquainting them fully with all matters in connection with it. He had been accused of making dummies of the Crown agents The fact was, he said, the colony wanted the four millions, and if they could not get. money he would. Under similar stances, he hoped the Crown agents would be made dummies of. Speaking with a full knowledge of the financial needs of the colony, be would inform the House that, had the money not been raised, the result would have been disastrous. The speech of the member for Wairarapa gave him great pain and made him wonder how it was possible for him to have been so long a consistent supporter of Sir J. Vogel while holding such opinions. Regarding the subject of the appointment, he defended the course they took in the matter as the only course they could take under the circumstances. They were bound to inform the House as promised, but they did not not ask the House to become responsible. They had the courage of their convictions, and that was why they accepted the amendment of the member for Dunedin, The matter was purely executive, and ho hoped the House would not interfere unless they looked to remove the Ministry.

Mr Montgomery said the Government should have made the appointment without informing the House, because the matter was purely executive. It appeared that whether the hon gentleman’s course of action in breaking up the Ministryiwaa right or wrong, the opinion of the majority of people throughout the colony was, that, as the affairs of the colony were approaching a stage of embarrassment, he thought it would be easier and pleasanter to enjoy the position and emoluments at home of Agent General. He agreed in the condemnation passed upon Sir J. Vogel for his unnecessary quarrelling with the Crown Agents. He denied that the prosperous position of the colony was due to the policy of Sir J. Vogel. A wave of prosperity had passed over all the colonics. He admitted the undoubted ability of the member for Wanganui, but he had other qualities not so good. His policy was to rule at all hazards, and borrow money, but we would yet have to suffer for the extravagant expenditure we had been guilty of. It was not for the credit of the hon gentleman to go home now. Had the House been asked to vote him five thousand instead of sending him home us Agent-General, there would have been more votes for it. He regretted the action of the Ministry on this occasion as unworthy of them. Mr Hodgkinson supported the motion, A more imprudent, unfit, uneconomical, or insolent person could not be obtained for the post. Had not a new term been coined— Vogel ism—which was synonymous with all that was recklecs and extravagant 1

Sir G. Grey aaid the Government should have carried out their promise of last night, and staked their existence upon the question. The hon gentleman denounced the Ministry as not representing the people. They represented the squatters, while the Opposition represented the opinions of the people. He accused the Premier of misstating the fact of his case. He was prepared to show ihat the cost of the Victorian Agent-Generalship was as small when they were largely carrying out immigration as when they were not. He maintained that the whole of the vast expenditure carried on at home was wholly unnecessary, and perfectly shameful. There was no way to carry out the economy promised, He disapproved of the appointment altogether. It was wrong he should leave the country at such an impending crisis, and leave others to bear the blame of the disaster that might ensue. If he must leave he ought not to ask the House to endorse his past acts as successful and satisfactory . Hon F. Whitaker deprecated the quantity of irrelevant matter dragged into the discussion as to whether they represented the majority of the country or not. Why was not the matter tested at once in the ordinary way as a direct issue, and find i out who represented the majority. He agreed with those who said this matter should never have been brought before the House. It placed them all in a false position. No discussion should have taken place before the appointment, but after. He for one was strongly opposed to informing the House till after the appointment was made, but unfortunately a promise had been previously made which they felt bound to keep. The promise was injudicious ; it was one false step leading to others. When he joined the Ministry he was informed there had been no promise made regarding the appointment, and he felt free to consider the matter upon its merits. Under the circumstances there was no man in the colony who would better suit them for the office. While there might be as suitable men in the colony for the office, they could not gv.t any gentleman to go home for only twelve months, the term after which the whole department would be remodelled. The hon gentleman p oceedecl to defend the action of the late Premier in his dealings with the Crown Agents as right and beneficial to the colony. It was no wonder that those gentlemen were not pleased to be superseded, and the work done for the colony that they could not do. The hon gentleman went on to explain that he for one would not offer Sir J. Vogel the Agency fur more than one year, and that his duty should be to curtail the expenditure and narrow the functions. Touching tire praises bestowed upon the Crown Agents, he held they were very highly paid, and that when the colony could do without them advantageous'y it ought to do so. When Dr Feathorstou died there was Mr Kennaway, quite competent to carry on the work of the office, but the Crown Agents immediately appointed a friend of their own to the office. The hon gentleman defended Sir J. Vogel in the correspondence between him and Dr Fcatberston, and pointed to the correspondence to show that Dr Featherston constantly violated bis instructions, and that Sir Julius Vogel never did. It had been raid that the cost of the agency was unnecessary, but the time to discuss that was when the estimates for the agency came on, and they could dispose of the appointment of the Agent-General at the same time. There was no desire to shirk any responsibility or any discussion.

Mr Stevens waa unfavorable to the proposed appointment. Having read all the Loan correspondence, he mutt say that while the Crown agents showed courtesy throughout, Sir J, Vogel showed the very opposite. In fact the correspondence was humiliating. He would give Sir J. Vogel all credit for the way he sold the loan. He could not say he did What was best with it after it was raised, jie acted improperly

when he charged the Crown agents with making an eager bid for business. The non member further analysed the correspondence and Bank correspondence, to show that frir J. Vogel acted very improperly, and displayed throughout a desire to be headstrong and have his own way. He was afraid that a person with those qualities would be dangerous to appoint to so important a position. Mr Andrew having replied, the amendment was put and negatived by 41 against 24, this being equivalent to carrying the previous question and in favor of the Government. The following is the division list : Ayes 24. Mr Andrew Mr Rolleston Baigent Seaton Burns Sharp De Latour Stevens Dignan Swanson Fisher Thomson Fitzroy Tole Sir G. Grey Tonks Mr Joyce Wakefield Montgomery Wason O’Rorke Wood, B.H. (teller) Rees (teller) Wood, W. Noes 41.

Major Atkinson Mr Lumsden Mr Ballance Macfarlane Barff Sir D. McLean Bastings Mr G. McLean Bowen Moorhouse Brown, J. E. Murray-Aynsley Brown, J. G. Ormond Bryce Pearce Bunny Pyke Button Reid, D. Carrington Richmond Cox Rowe Sir R. Douglas Russell Mr Gibbs Shrimski Harper Stafford Henry Stout (teller) Hunter Tawiti Hursthouse Tribe Kelly (teller) Whitaker . Kennedy Woolcock. Kenny Majority for Government, 17.

Wednesday, September 6 SIR J. VOGEL’S EXPENSES.

Sir G. Grey gave notice to move for a select committee to inquire into the cost of Sir J. Vogel's two missions to England.

QUESTIONS.

Mr Tairoa asked if the Government would place on the estimates £6OOO, and interest to be paid to the native owners of Princes street reserve, being rents due to the issue of the Crown grant. Sir D. McLean asked that the matter be postponed till Wednesday, when an answer would be given. Mr Reynolds asked whether Government intended legislating this session to stop the practice of driving workmen in ballast trucks in front of locomotive engines. The hon gentleman instanced two fatal cases that had occurred through that practice. Hon. E. Richardson had given the matter a good deal of consideration and did not see their way to take any legislative action. The practice might be dangerous, but was not always avoidable. Mr Wakefield asked what steps had been taken towards repairing the Rangitata bridge ? Hon B. Richardson said the designs had only just been completed and no delay would take place in calling for tenders. In reply to Mr J, C. Brown, Hon E. Richardson said he expected that in about four months the railway to Lawrence would be opon to traffic. notice of motion. Mr Rees gave notice to move for a Select Committee to enquire whether certain circumstances in connection with certain members of the House and Government were in violation of the Disqualification Act. THE DAYS OF SITTING . The Premier said that it was probable the Government would this week ask the House to sit on Mondays for the remaindtr of the session, THE EXECUTIVE, Mr Murray gave notice to move—“ That no member of the House be made a member of the Executive without going for re-election.” attorney-general’s act. The Attorney-General’s Repeal Act was read a second time. PULLIC PETITIONS COMMITTEE. Mr Murray moved—“ That any member of the public petitions committee absent three consecutive sitting, except through illness, or absence by leave, should cease to be a member of the committee.” The Premier opposed it as unadvisabie. because it would enable any hon member who wished to evade a disagreeable duty to do so, by merely absenting himself three times. He would, however, undertake to have the whole matter considered during the recess. From the discussion which ensued it appeared that the main cause of dissatisfaction was owing to many members systematically absenting themselves during the taking of evidence, and then coming in and giving their votes entirely unacquainted with the facts of the case. The motion was withdrawn, MAGISTRATES’ COURTS. Mr Stout moved—“ That the Magistrates’ Courts and offices should be provided with the ‘ New Zealand Jurist.’ ” He gave as a reason that many magistrates were not lawyers, and such a publication would be useful. In Victoria the Government subscribed annually for a number of analogous publications, Hon C. 0. Bowen said Government were at present publishing an authoritative edition of judgments in the Court of Appeal which would be far more suitable for the purposes referred to. Before they stopped that publication they thought it but right to consult the judges. If the motion were withdrawn the Government would undertake to communicate during the recess with a view of ascertaining whether the “ New Zealand Jurist ” was likely to become a satisfactory and permanent publication. Mr Button pointed out that the “ New Zealand Jurist ” was more valuable than Mr Bowen thought, because while the cases before the Appeal Court were very few, those in the “Jurist” were many, and although the decision of single Judges were still exceedingly valuable. The motion, amended so as to include all other reports of New Zealand decisions, was then agreed to. THE WAIKATO. Mr Taiaroa moved that the request made by Mr Tawhaio for a restoration of a portion of the Waikato should be given effect to by the House. In the course of his remarks, he said the Waikato natives spoke of fighting if 1 the land was not given them,

! The Native Minister said the- course I taken regarding the confiscated lands was to j take a portion iu all those distiica win re { they took part in the war against Europeans. I When he had an interview with Tawtnio. he distinctly pointed out to him that it was quite impossible for him to gat any portion of the Waikato. They would not dispossess the Europeans who bought their land. He had no objection, however, and he thought Government would not. If Tawhaio would apply for some portion of the unsold confiscate.! lauds still in possession of Government, they would bring the matter before the House, because he thought it was highly desirable there should be a friendly under standing between the two races. The motion was negatived on the voices. GOVERNMENT WHIP. Mr Wakefield moved —“ That in the opinion of the House the position of the Government whip is incompatible with that of chairman of the public petition com mittee.” He disclaimed any personal or political feeling in the matter, but merely because the T e had been considerable dissatisfaction as to the incompatibility of the positions. Mr Macandrew seconded the motion for similar reasons After some discussion as to the incompatibility of the two positions, and requests from several members that question be withdrawn, the motion was accordingly withdrawn. The House rose at 5 30. The House resumed at 7.30. local elections act. A message from the Legislative Council notified its agreement in the amendments made by the House in the Local Elections Act. SECOND READINGS. The Otepopo Atbenreum Heserve, Dunedin Tramways, and Waiuku Grants Bill were read a second time without discussion. HARBOUR BILLS, The adjourned debate re messages from the Governor, introducing Harbour Bills, was, on the motion of the Premier, postponed until next Monday, when the whole of the Harbour Bills will be submitted to the House. ASHBURTON AND MOUN T SOMERS RAILWAY. The Ashburton and Mount Somers Ilailway Trust Bill was discharged. CANTERBURY PASTORAL LEASING BILL, Mr Kollekton hoped the hou member iu charge of the Bill would consent to the Bill being read this day six mouths. Mr Wasou defended. Messrs Montgomery, Wood, Stafford, and Sharp opposed. Sir G. Grey was entirely opposed to any legislation at present, with regard to the waste lands of the colony such as that indicated by the Government, at this late period of the session, but would support the Bill now before the House, as in his opinion it was a movement in the right direction, so that the present pastoral leases might be submitted to public auction, with a view to the subdivision of the enormous tracks of country now in the bands of a few individuals. Mr Bastings would vote for the second reading, but hoped to make certain alterations in committee. On a division for the second reading 20 voted against and 36 for. It was thereupon carried that the Bill be read this day six months. DUNEDIN MUNICIPAL BILL. The House went into committee on the Dunedin Municipal Bill. Clauses 1 to 21 passed without amendments. Clause 22 was postponed. Clauses 23 to 26 passed, upon which progress was reported. LAWRENCE ATHENA!UM RESERVES This Bill was committed and passed without amendment. SECOND READINGS. The Lawrence Recreation Reserves, Dunedin Reserves Exchanges, and Dunedin Waterworks Extension Act Amendment Bills were read h second time without discussion. LYTTELTON PUBLIC RESERVES. The Lyttelton Public Reserves Vesting Bill was committed aud passed without amendment. MESSAGES FROM THE GOVERNOR. The House then went into committee to consider certain messages from the Governor. The first was a recommendation to raise money for immigration and public works. The second was re the consolidation and inscription of the New Zealand stock, and to empower the Government to make arrangements with the Bank of New Zealand in 'reference thereto. The third was to give Treasury bills extended currency ; and subsequently in the House, the Bills were introduced aud read a first time, to give effect to resolutions passed in accordance with the above messages. EDUCATIONAL RESERVES. The Otago Educational Reserves Management Bill was read a second time. LAW PRACTITIONERS ACTS AMENDMENT BILL, This Bill has special reference to the petition of Mr Smythies. Mr Whitaker considered that Mr Smythies having given a receipt in full of all demands, in consideration of having received £IOOO from the colony, he was not entitled to any further consideration from the House. The debate was adjourned till Wednesday, Smythies receipts to be printed aud distiibuted. GOLDFIELDS ACT. The Goldfields Act Amendment Bill was road a second time, wito an understanding that the discussion hereon comes off on the motion fur committal. MUNICIPAL ENDOWMENT. The Napier Municipal Endowment Bill was read a third time aud passed. The House adjourned at one a m.