HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Globe, Volume VI, Issue 670, 12 August 1876, Page 2

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Thursday, August 10. The House resumed at 7.30. ADJOURNED DEBATE ON SEPARATION. Mr Moeray-Aynsley said years ago Inhad been in favor of separation, but in 18G2 there was not the same debt on the colony as now, and he recognised that if it was desir able then it'was not desirable now. Provincial Governments had done good in their time, but the time hud now come when there should be better localisation of Government. For years the provinces had been gradually

losing their power in reference to large subjects, and smaller matters of administration, could best be dealt with by smaller bodies in several districts. As to the financial condition of the colony, he thought it was such as to necessitate prudence and care ; and though it was advisable to complete works which had been commenced, and carry on others which naturally followed them, still it would be advisable to go more slowly in future. If progress were desired unity must be consummated. Mr Macandrew said his opinion on the subject was so well known, and so well expressed by the preceding Opposition speakers, that were it not for his position as premier representative of the commercial capital of the colony, he should not have troubled the House at all. He considered the matter one of the most important which had ever been before the House, and he should vote for the resolutions, because he felt confident that were they carried New Zealand would have much better Government than if the proposals of the Government were given effect to ; and another reason, which alone should for him be sufficient, was, that were the r cheme of the Government accepted, somewhere about £203,000 a year, in addition to the large sums already contributed by the province to colonial finance, would be required from Otago. On the other hand, if the policy indicated by the resolutions of the member for the Thames were carried, with the exception of being responsible for a large portion of the debt of the colony, the bulk of the revenue of Otago would go to the people there. That would be very sufficient justification for his voting in favor of the resolutions. No doubt he would be told he was narrow minded. Well, let it be so. He considered the revenue of Otago more important than any sentiment, and not only that, but more important to Otago than the unity of the colony. He urged the expediency of reducing the powers of the central Legislature, because of the great injury done to the colony by the system of colonial finances. He challenged any member of the House to say he understood the accounts of the colony. Twenty-two years ago a select committee reported it was impossible to unravel the accounts, and the perplexities had gone on increasing as the colony grew older, till now the only thing the House could make out was that last year there had been a balance of £363,000 of expenditure over revenue. That was a very alarming matter, and a matter which demanded very serious consideration; and to get rid of this difficulty there were but three courses open—first, by adding to the taxation of the country; secondly, by putting their hands into the pockets of Canterbury and Otago; thirdly, by retrenchment. The second mode seemed to commend itself to the Government, but he and those who thought and acted with him should prefer to see retrenchment on a sufficient scale to achieve the object in view. This was the meaning of the resolutions of the hon member for the Thames, and he could promise that if the resolutions were given effect to. there would be sufficient [retrenchment to save the cjlony. It mu3t be very clear to members on both sides of the House that the colony was living far beyond its means, and that under the circumstances it was but reasonable to attempt to get rid of expensive luxuries; but the General Government bad not an idea of curtailing extravagance. Each day new departments were being created. There were the appointments of an Inspector-General of Forests, Inspectors of Prisons, Inspectors of Lunatic Asylums, and one knew not what. It seemed to him that in New Zealand the parable of the prodigal son was reversed. Here, instead of the son wasting the substance of his father in riotous 1 ving, it was the father himself who was spending the substance of the son—[a laugh J —and he was not content with wasting the substance of one son, but he treated nine sons all alike. It was time the sons to a large extent took the management of the estate into their own hands and cut down the establishment of the fast old gentleman. [A laugh.] This General Assembly cost the colony £35,000 a year at present, but that sum would be very largely increased, perhaps doubled, if the whole business, which had been so well performed by the Provincial Councils during the past, were to come before it. The cost of the three Governments to be established, if the resolutions were carried, would be very much less than that. Taking the Provincial Council of Otago as a sample of the legislature which would be created in the South, ho found that that body, composed of forty-seven men, fully equal in intelligence and capacity to any forty-seven members of that House, only cost £3BOO a year, including travelling expenses, honorarium, printing, and expenses of every kind. This they had in Otago, although they did not give them pretentious names—a Treasurer, Provincial Secretary, Minister of Public Works, Minister of Railways, Minister of Education, Minister of G/bldfields, and the whole cost was £5300; that if there were three executives and three legislatures in the colony their cost would not be more than £9OOO each, and in all would not cost one-half what this legislature cost. Replying to the remarks of the Minister of Justice, he continued that a change in the form of goverbmerit would give the colony a fresh start. It would impart new political life to both North and South, and infuse fresh energy and vigor into the whole body politic throughout the country. He believed that the proposal if carried would fill the hearts of the people with the noble quality of self-reliauce and free Iheur from the grinding iniluence of centralism. On the other hand if the county scheme were carried it would prevent hundreds of capable men entering public life, who would spend their time in pottering about with Coucty Councils and i-Soad Boards, and how many clever men were there who could not afford to leave their business and their places to stay at Welling', ton from three to six mouths in the year ? If the legislature were within easy reach of them by rail, these men would make a little sacrifice, but they would not make the great sacrifice of coming to Wellington. And where was the necessity for the sacrifice- ? Was there anything in Wellington which added to the value of the laws; w?s there any reason for Otago to ask the Hawke's Bay and Taranaki people to assist in framing its Bcab Act, or for asking the Auckland people to assist in spending its revenue 1 The proposals of the Government were absurd. He felt convinced the system of county government would not be acceptable to the whole of the colony ; it would not be applicable to the whole of the colony ; and he pointed to the number of Road Boards and municipalities in the province of Otago, to show that provincialism rather fostered than repelled the demands for district

government, where the people were ripe for it. The whole of the colony was not ripe for it, and would not be for years to come. Par better then to have allowed the system of Provincial Government to exist ; and he would point out that the local bodies in Otago were not unendowed bodies ; all of them had substantial endowments, and were working well, because they had amen as necessity called for them. As the hon member for Mount Ida said, local self-government to b? really effective must emanate spontaneously from the people themselves—from each locality. This system of counties had never been asked for, but neither had abolition been asked for. It had been said that the table of the House was to groan with the weight of the petitions for abolition ; but all the petitions the House had seen were two. The hon gentleman referred to the utterances of the hon member for Timaru, whose whole aim in life had been to mischievously tamper with the constitution of the colony. It was a most peculiar feature in connection with New Zealand legislation, that the tendency had been not to comply with the wants of the people, but to act with a sort of Mlletanti anticipation of those requirements. This was a very singular fact in the history of the New Zealand legislature. He recognised Provincial Councils ns channels through which the government of the country should flow, and the provincial form of Government as the best for the outlying districts. With this idea in his mind he should have preferred seeing two Governments for each island, and had no doubt that it would come to that in the end. As a means to an end he should support the resolutions of the hon member for the Thames as they now stood. One fact had been lost sight of. Otago was now paying upwards of £90,000 a year interest on money which had been bsrrowed for the purpose of conBtructing works in the country districts, fully £45,000 of which was paid for money spent on works on the goldfields. The proclivities of the Otago Legislature had from the very first been to decentralise. (Vho first set the example of giving £2 to £1 for local works, and promoting private enterprise, and subsidising steamers and manufacturing companies, and which had given assistance to the introduction of salmon, which would be of more value than a goldfield ? Who but that Provincial Legislature of Otago ? If the Provincial Government of Otago had shown the same incompetency to govern as the General Government had, he for one would not have shed a tear to see it Bink into the sea of abolition with a bubbling groan without a grave, unknelled. uncoffined, and unknown. Mr Montgomery did not look upon the resolutions as a vote of want of confidence. When he saw those resolutions, he considered them vague ; but he thought the speeches explaining them would have dispelled that vagueness. It appeared to him that the resolutions were inopportune, and the House should have as a preferab'e course gone on with the proposals of the Government, so that their value should have been estimated by the treatment they received. He regretted to say that the explanations of the resolutions by the member for the Thames had not been satisfactory to him. One disadvantage of these resolutions was, it would take a considerable time to give them shape after they were discuesed, besides time that would be lost in obtaining the sanction of the Imperial Government. The explanations of the member for Waikato were eminently unsatisfactory. Even supposing the House were favorable to separation, which it was not, why should the land fund of Otago and Canterbury be made the common property of the South Island any more than, of the whole colony ? Why should Canterbury be called on to divide with Nelson and Westland ? It was time some understanding was arrived at on this matter. Taking the position of the North Island, if these resolutions were carried, where would be the power of that part of the colony to repress and and put down a native rising if it took place? He did not won der Otago and Auckland felt sore because they struggled against abolition, but the Ministry had brought down measures this session that practically neutralised abolition. The Ministry's measures this session were not only against abolition, but went so direct against the interests of many districts that it was no wonder they were unpopular. He deprecated the way the counties had been formed, cut out of established districts by arbitrary lines, and generally laid out in a way that was not creditable to the Ministry. The Ministry had left one party, and went over to another. Such actions were demoralising, and it would take a long time to get over the ill effects of such conduct. The hon gentleman then quoted from the speech of Mr Stafford at Timaru to show that the land fund was to be localised, though in the same speech he made it clear that the only provinces having land fund were Canterbury and Otagc. Well it was a matter for regret that he should have gone round since to the contrary opinions. The hon gent'.eman did more by his speech the other night to open the door to separation than anybody in the colony. The danger of going away from solemn compacts was that they could not say where such things would stop, or where forfeiture of moral obligation would end. There were people in the colony who owned immerse tracts of land and might not the rights of these people be infringed in the same way as the rights of the provinces. He deprecated the slightest infringement of that which had been in the minds of the people as a solemn compact—one existing for the last twenty years. Before he sat duwn he would state that though the Government measures did not take away the laud openly, they did so insidiously. He was anxious to preserve the unity of the colony, and did not wish to see it divided into two provinces. If it could be shown to him that separation would be for the benefit of the colony, he would be open to conviction, but whether that camo to pass at some future time or not, he hoped the Government would not attempt to build up their system by general spoliation, and the taking from the districts that laud fund to which he firmly believed they were t oroughly entitled. Mr Lumsden said he had heard no argument during the debate justifying abolition. If any particular province desired to be abolished, let it be so, but don't coerce those opposed to it. It ap- , peared to him that the Road Boards were quite equal to all the requirements of the colony at present. It was not yet ripe enough in progress or population to require the county system. He denied that the outlying districts had been so unfairly treated as to call for such an innovation. More had been made out of that cry than was justified. He believed that the system of provincialism was eminently calculated to develop national

feeling, while much of what he heard in that House from the would-be supporters of national feeling, showed a decided tendency towards disunion. He believed that had it not been for financial difficulties looming in the distance, the country would have heard nothing of abolition. Government was needy, and coveted the property of the provinces. Mr Manders did not agree with the statements of the other Otago members, at least so far as regarded a satisfactory feeling with provincial administration in the district of Wakatipu. It was true he promised to support separation—not separation as proposed by the member for the Thames, but a very different kind of thing. He distinctly stated that he stipulated for local self-government in each district. The resolutions made no provision whatever for that. It was like a bantling thrown on the floor of the House to be dressed. He held that on the contrary, the Government proposals provided all that the people of the colony required, and believed they were in favor with the people of the colony generally, except in such centres of population as Dunedin, that progressed at the expense of the outlying districts. He : opposed the resolutions. Mr Fisher had promised hie constituents he would support separation if any attempt, was made upon the land fund of Canterbury. While supporting the principles of these resolutions, he objected to their details as shadowed forth by the member for Waikato, Mr TAWITI said if the colony was going to be divided into two or three parts, from what portion was the Maories going to benefit ? He thought there ought to be but one Government, so that they might know where to lay their grievances. At present if they applied to the General Government, they were told to go to the province, and if to the province they were told go to General Government. It appeared all that was sought was to remove the Government, and take their places. The present Government did a great deal of good to his district in establishing a school for native children, and he should be sorry to see them turned out. Mr Karaitana supported the resolutions. He opposed Government because they wanted to lay their hands upon the native lands. He thought that as affairs hitherto had been very bad as regarded the natives. by supporting the resolutions the natives might have a chance of benefiting. Mr Tole supported the resolutions, the principle of which had been amply proved by the speeches of SirG. Grey, MrWhitaker, and Mr Kees. The hon gentleman argued at considerable length that the arrangement proposed could be conducive to the prosperity of the colony, and that it was made absolutely necessary by the extravagance and improvidence of the General Government. Hon member read a telegram from his constituents, asking him to oppose the Counties Bill in all its stages, and to endeavor to make the land fund colonial revenue, failing that, to support separation. If these resolutions were not carried he really did not know what would become of them. If they were lost it would be by the treachery of the Auckland members. The great grievance of Auckland had always been the division amongst her members. Mr Gibbs had not been convinced by any arguments he heard in defence of the resolutions. He did not, however, think the Counties Bill was exactly what the people wanted ; but he hoped it would be put in workable shape in committee. Still it was better than what was proposed. He pictured to himself the position of Nelson, and especially the position of the district of Collingwcod, as an outlying district, with an Otago Government for the Middle Island sitting at Christchurch, and he did not consider the position very enticing. He did not think the land fund of the rich provinces of Canterbury and Otago should be devoted exclusively to the benefit cf those provinces. That, however, was a question that would soon settle itself. Our public creditors would have to be satisfied. He could not tee how dividing ihe colony into two provinces would improve the financial position of the colony. The insinuation thrown out that force might be resorted to if these resolutions were not carried, was really too nonsensical to be seriously thought of. Mr Stevens moved the adjournment of the debate, and the House adjourned at 12 25. Friday, August 11. The House met at 2 80. QUESTIONS, Id reply to Mr O'Roike, Hon Major Atkinson said it was not the intention of the Government to extend the chain of settlements throughout the Seventy Mile Bush so as to connect the settlements in Wellington and Hawke's Bay provinces. In rep'y to a question of Mr Bees in regard to the appointment of Agent-General, the Premier said the matter had not yet come under the consideration of the Government. Members would readily understand the reason for that under the present position of affairs. gbsat southern railway. Mr Wakefield asked the Minister for Public Works whether he had received any reports or other information with regard to the unsafe condition of pa ts of the Great Southern Railway, particularly the timber viaduct in the approach to Timaru from the north. i Hon E. RICHARDSON said his attention i had not been directed to the matter lately, and the department had received no communication about it. On a previous occayion his attention was called to these viaducts. At first they were constructed with a view to the lightest class of traffic ; subsequently they were strengthened to carry the heaviest rolling stock and engines. It was the intention of the department, when the enlargement of the Timaru station was made, that these viaducts would be made perfectly safe. NATIVE LANDS THTUCITASE. A good deal of diseusaion ensued upon a question by Sir George Grey as to whether they would lay before the House any reports received from the Native Lands Purchase Commissioners in Poverty Bay district. The Native Minister did not deem it advisable to produce reports which refiecte 1 upon the character of a Government officer without giving the officer an opportunity to give some explanation. Sir George Grey moved an adjournment, in order to allow freedom for discussion. Meesrs Bees, Sheehan, and Wakefield supported the motion that the House adjourn until the papers are produced, or until the Native Minister gave a more satisfactory reason than he had yet done for doing so.

The Premier spoke at some length in order to show that the demand made would establish a very bad precedent. The fact of it was, this Government officer in a report sent made certain grave charges against several other Government officers. Well, Government had not deemed it right to demand an enquiry before they had acquainted the accused with the ex parte charges made against them, and calling upon them for an explanation. Surely that course was only what a sense of justice would compel them to follow. Personally the Government had not the smallest interest in the matter. He hoped the House would refuse the productiou of papers until the case was _in a different position to what it was in at present. Mr Reader Wood spoke very strongly against refusing to lay these papers on the table. It was well known there weie numerous suspicious circumstances in connection with.native land transactions ; and when it was found it was impossible to drag any information from Ministers upon these matters, the only inference that could be drawn was that they were true. „ Mr Stout argued in the same direction. " The Native MINISTEBsaid there was no earthly objection to lay the papers on the table, but they wanted to inquire into the matter first, in fairness to the accused. He believed that in three weeks the whole of the papers would be laid upon the table. Mr Stafford regretted the ruling which enabled a debate to be raised in such a manner, as he foresaw great difficulties being likely to arise from such a practice. It appeared that if the full explanation given by the Premier had been given by the Native Minister in the first place the House would not call for the papers. Sir G. Grey commented upon the fact that the Native Minister concealed from the House the reports. Referring to the remarks of the member for Timaru, he said that hon gentleman misapprehended the whole spirit of his remarks, and he begged to inform that hon gentleman that the whole course of his political career had been to rob hi 3 fellow subjects of their lights and privileges. The Speaker called him to order for travelling out of the legitimate line of debate. Sir G. Grey went on to comment upon Native matters generally, such as the murders of Europeans by natives, and said if any more occurred it was very probable the Europeans would go in and apprehend these murderers, and further that if the Government persisted in purchasing native land in the same way as at present, a native war would ensue. Sir G. Grey then withdrew his motion for adjournment, NATIVE LAND SALES. The Native Minister introduced the Native Land Sales Bill to be read a first time. Mr Sheehan pointed out that this Bill would seriously affect the welfare of the natives of the North Island. It might be a good Bill, but it might also not be. If a Gas Bill or other Bill of a similar kind were to be introduced, a month's notice should be given in the newspapers ; yet here was a Bill affecting the interests of thousands of natives, who had not the slightest opportunity of knowing anything of it. Important Bills like this ought to be introduced in the early part of the session. That was due to the natives and the House. He suggested that the Bill should be referred to a Select Committee. The Premier said that the object of the Government in bringing the Bill forward now was to enable the second reading to come on as early as possible ; after which it would be referred to a Select Committee before proceeding further with it. Messrs Taiaroa and Karaitiana sup ported Mr Sheehan's views, and asked that the Bill be circulated amongst the natives. Mr Lusk asked that under the peculiar circumstances of the case, the Native Minister would allow a committee to be appointed at once. Mr Rees spoke forcibly against the conduct of the Government in the matter. So important a Bill ehould have been circulated I three months, aud went on to show how native wars spring from less causes than that, and said that to show iuch want of consideration for the rights of the natives, w.is aiming a desperate blow at the peace of the couutry. A month at least ought to be allowed to elapse before the second reading was taken, so that the natives should be enabled to make their ideas known upon the Bill. The Bill was then read a first time. The Native Minister asked that the Bill be read a second time that day week. Mr Wakefield considered the action of the Native Minister the most extraordinary piece of assurance he ever saw. Government were bound in honor and justice to the colony that this Bill should have been brought down at the same time as all the other Government Bills. He had looked like a cat watching for a mouse for this Bill. Why the whole future financial arrangements of the colony depended upon this Bill. It would be intimately linked with the creation of a land fund for the North Island. Government wronged both races in delaying the Bill so long, but now that delay occurred, it was imperative upon them to increase the delay. It was perfectly impossible to ap- . proach the consideration of the Bill properly , under three weeks with such an important ■ debate progressing. It had been suggested : that the Bill should be published in the Walni Maori and the Tc Wanaga. They might as well paate the Bill on the underside of the table as publish it in the Walta Maori, 1 for that was the greatest scandal he knew in i connection with the native management. The whole object of the WaltaMaori was to - praise up the policy of Government. He moved as an amendment that the Bill be read ; that day three weeks. J The Premier was interested in the • pleasant lecture of the hon member, who i vva3 kind enough to refer to the assurance of ' the Native Minister. If they wanted a sample of assurance they need not go the length of the Native Minister. The Premier v then explained how the Government did all f that could possibly be done to advance the 3 business, sketched out the whole progress of '■'■ the business since the session opened, to show it could not well have been brought fc forward before. 1 The Native Minister deprecated these r warnings, that sounded like threats, with 3 legard to native uprisings, and announced he would shortly make a statement regard- - ing uat ; ve affairs that would disabuse the • minds of hon members respecting imaginary terrors, purposely conjured by certain memd bers of the House. 2 Mr Sheehan replied to the Native 9 Minister, and as he spoke till 5.30. it was not y settled when the Bill would be read a second time,

On the House resuming at 7.30. Mr Stevens took up the Separation debate, saying it was not brou° ht forward so completely as by Mr Whitaker in 1856. At one time he favored Separation, but of a different kind to that shadowed in the present resolutions. He strongly reprobated the practice of saying Parliament was not a representative body ; it represented the colony very well in whatever Avay they liked to look at it. While prepared to deal with the general policy or finance of the Government from an independent point of view, he could not look upon these resolutions as in any way connected with the conduct of Ministers. The hon gentleman then proceeded to consider the scheme embodied in the resolutions from a financial point of view, and went on to show that the scheme proposed by Sir G. Grey would be most injurious to the credit of the colony. Touching upon the land revenue, he would not agree to see that interfered with; but while lie maintained the right of Canterbury to what she had enjoyed for twenty years, he was colonial enough in his feelings to vote for enabling Auckland to maintain an effective Government if she was unable to do so herself. He submitted to the House an imaginery financial statement as to the cost of governing the South Island in case of Sir George Grey's resolutions being carried, and though he professed to have taken the provincial estimates for these calculations, he showed that the Government machinery of the island could not be maintained in good working order under a million and a half per annum, which would compel them to make common stock of the land fund or impose additional taxation. The people of Canterbury were quite prepared to give of what they had, but they were not going to give anything to galvanize into life the corpse of provincialism. He must oppose Separation whether he looked at it from a selfish or sentimental point of view. Mr Donald Reid supported the resolutions in a long speech, in course of which he criticised unfavorably many of the details of the Government policy, and argued that, according to his estimates (mt:ch more moderate than Mr Stevens'), he would be prepared to to show that the government of the islands, including federal government, could be carried on a great deal cheaper than the over-grown system at Wellington. He denied that the resolutions meant a vote of want of confidence. The Ministry were probably as good administrators as any set of men in the House. It was not them he objected to so much as to their system. Any other ministry, under the same regimen, would be objectionable, and if the resolutions were not carried, he would not assist to turn them out of office; but he warned them that they must not hope to force their proposals upon the people without creating feelings of discontent that would not be easily allayed. The hon gentleman then went at considerable length into the proposals of the Government, to show that they were not only undesired by the people at large, but were utterly unBuited to their wishes and requirements, and that under them it would be impossible to localise the land fund. Mr Moorhouse opposed the resolutions, and defended the Government from the accusations of incompetency, and extravagance made against them, especially the Premier and Native Minister, and maintained that from his experience of the liberal and imposing style with which the Provin cial Government was carried on in Otago i aud Canterbury, it would be quite impossible to carry on the three Governments proposed as economically and efficiently as their present Legislature was carried on. To him the only object appeared to be to embarrass the Government. Mr Larnach supported the resolutions, on the grounds that the work of the Government at present was unnecessarily extrava gant, and that substantial economy could be attained under Sir George Grey's proposals, though he did not blame the Government so much for that as the House. He denied that the change would necessarily injure the credit of the colony. Mr Rowe opposed the resolutions, and deprecated the extraordinary personal rancour displayed against individuals of the Ministry in debate by certain members of the Opposition. Mr Wakefield moved the adjournment of the debate, and the House adjourned at 12.45 p.m.