GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume VI, Issue 641, 8 July 1876, Page 3

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

«. (From, a correspondent of the Press.') HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Thursday, July 6. the murderer winiata, After Sir G. Grey had moved for papers in re Winiata, Sir D. McLean, in laying the correspondence on the table, said that if he had not been informed on the previous evening by the member for the City West that he intended to speak on this subject, he would have laid it on the table when the hon member gave notice of his motion, but he thought it was due to him to afford him an opportunity of addressing the House on this matter. With reference to the honor of the country being involved in anything that transpired during his visit to Waikato, he absolutely denied he had in any way compromised the dignity of the Government! He went to the country in compliance with repeated invitations from Tawhiao and other leading chiefs. He had previously vißited Tawhiao in 1875 at Waitomo, and he (the Native Minister) believed that the visit had been productive of most important results to the country at large, as waß proved by the greatly improved relations which had existed between the King natives and the European settlers since that visitj and he had no doubt that testimony would be borne to that effect by all the settlers along the frontier. Before the meeting at Waitomo, Nuku bad gone to the place where it was expected that the meeting would be held, but when Tawhiao heard of it he peremptorily ordered Nuku off the ground*; and during the meeting Nuku was at a distance. That was the action that Tawhiao adopted on that occasion, and he (the Native Minister) might also inform the House that there was no murderer present at the meeting at Kaipiti,* or at any meeting he had held with Tawhiao, and had there been any such person present, he (Sir Donald McLean) would have instantly withdrawn—[Cheers,} When the assertion was made that & murderer was present, he deemed it his duty to send a telegram to the resident magistrate, Major Mair, to inquire if there was any foundation for the report. The telegram was to the follpwiDg effect ; "It is alleged there were murderers at Kaipiti during the time I *held the meeting with Tawhiao. Let me know if there is any truth in the report.—Donald McLean." The reply was as follows :—" The report that there were any murderers present at Kaipiti during the meeting with Tawhiao is utterly without foundation. Nuku had been in the neighborhood, but was sent away before you arrived. Yoa may remember that Sir George Grey took Tapihiana, the man who committed the murder on the great South road, to accompany him to Kawau, when he went to examine as to the fitness of the place for the prisoners." He could only say that the eflect of the speech of the hon member for Auckland City West was only io find fault with and throw obstacle in the way of those who were endeavoring to bring about permanent friendly relations, to vilify the actions of the Government on every possible ".occasion (hear, hear), and to prevent the natives from coming to any definite understanding. Hon members and the people of the colony generally would remember the unfortunate results which followed the escape of the Maori prisoners from Kawau during the "period when Sir George Grey was Governor. (Hear, hear.) He would point to the seven years during which he had enjoyed [the honor of administering the native affairs of the colony, ana confidently appeal to the House as to who been most successful in that administration, and who had saved the country the largest expenditure. He denied emphatically that any action of his had in any way compromised the dignity of the Crown—[cheers J —and he denied that he had ever held intercourse with any murderer*. He would not have been present for one moment at the meeting at Kaipiti had any murderers been there. [Cheers. J He thought that these allegations get up for political purposes were most reprehensible, and he of all other men from his previous position, and knowledge of the natives, should abstain from causing trouble, and his entering into direct communication with natives more or less hostile to the Government was not likely to lead to the peaceful settlement of the country. He asked the Houee to look at the position during the tjmetbey had the conduct of hative affairs, and to say whether they had been carrying them on successfully in the interests of both races, and a desire to save the country the expense and lo?s of life .which had occurred prior to the time that the administration of the native affairs was in the hands of the present Government. He was not going to discuss now the question of native policy, but he "asked the Houee to say whether or not he was. able to be trusted with these matters. If they said he was not, he Was quite satisfied with the verdict. So far as lay in his power, he had done his utmost, and he believed with a considerable amount of success, while previous ejjforts in ths same direction at-different times had been attended only with iiidiaerent success. That was not the place where discussions of this character should be initiated. Delicate nego'iations with powerful and influential chiefs ought to be left in the hands of the Executive, and not to be meddled 05 interfered with. If the fioverp{ijenti did not britfg them to ! a satisfactory termination, then it would be proper for the House to find fault with its action, but while these matters were pending, these accusations—none of which which had been substantiated ought not to be made. Constant jealousy was evinced, and these accusations constantly made by the member for City West, but when the allegations were disproved, he did not apologise, but repeated them over and over again, knowing well ther§ was no truth in, them. He (the Native Hiaigteri had j[earned'when in Auck : sn#, that the hon jnember had sent up an emissary, in the person, of one Alley, to the king country, who pretended to be on some other mission, and those emissaries set to work in every possible wayto vilify him (Sir D. McLean) and send false misrepresentations to the press, and to throw obstacles in the way of the final solution of our difficulties with the natives, and the establishment of peace and between boih races'. jiOn'eers] ' ,r Mrß:j!out 'regretted the tone wbich had been imported into the debate. The people of the South had for some years past left the management of native, affairs in the hands of

Sir D. McLean, in order that the country might be saved from the disastrous consequences of war, but the Native Minister appeared to be of opinion that the House ought not to discuss native affairs at all. [" No, No."l Mr Burns thought that if there were murderers present at Kaipiti, the Native Minister should have personally endeavored to seize them. As.illustratingthe mischievous effects of many telegrams sent South from here, he mentioned that shortly after the publication in one of the Dunedin papers of an account of Sir D. McLean's interview with Tawhaio, he was travelling in a railway carriage with a brother of Mr Todd, who was murdered by Nuku, when his companion said if the published account were true, Sir D. McLean deserved to be branded as a coward.

The Hon Major Atkinson said the Native Minister was not present at Kaipiti in the capacity of a mere policeman, but simply in hi 8 political capacity, and therefore it would have been manifestly wrong and foolish on his part to have adopted such a course as that suggested. The position the present Government had assumed|throughout is this, and it was the position assumed by every Government since the war commenced, that when the Queen's writ should run through the country then the surrender of all murderers would follow, and Parliament had repeatedly admitted that there was a tacit understanding that it was not possible to make the Queen's writ run withont entering into a war, which the country was anxious to avoid. Successive Governments had declared that when the Queen's writ did run, if fifty years hence, all murderers would be dealt with by law. The member for Auckland West, when Governor, invariably said that the king natives knew perfectly well, immediately a final understanding was effected that the one condition would be the surrender of all murderers. If his hon colleague had acted in the manner suggested, he would not only have degraded his own office but defeated the end the House had in view in establishing one law throughout the country. To his mind the discussion, in the form it was taking, could lead to nothing but harm, because if it meant anything it meant this, that we were to have no communication with the natives until they put themselves absolutely under our feet. The natives would not treat with us except on an equality, and the House had admitted that position. The member for Auckland City West, in his advice to the natives, had entirely misstated the law's operation. If his rendering were correct, what was the use of extradition treaties 1 Our relations with the native race left no alternative but to temporarily submit to what were we dealing with another civilised race would be considered degradation. To enforce our law meant entering upon war of extermination, and it would be manifestly wrong on our part to proceed to that. The whole course the Native Minister had pursued had been wise and judicious. The House had wisely and prudently determined on avoiding war, and bad affirmed the necessity of an exceptional mode of dealing with the natives by legislation specially applicable to them and of gradually educating the natives up to our standard, instead of endeavoring to exterminate them. (Hear, hear.) He trusted the House would give the Native Minister its absolute confidence, for without it it was impossible to carry on in the laco of these charges, and if he was to be subjected to such accusations as were made by the member for Auckland West. He said further the latter was doing immense harm to the country at the present time, and it was quite possible through the action he had taken the peaceful settlement of the country . might be delayed many years. Mr Moobhouse had carefully watched the progress of the native administration, and it was h}s opinion that nothing was so essential fov the good of the country in its present circumstances, as the fact of it being known that the Native Minister had the complete confidence' of both Houses of the Legislature. The country was now watching and watching keenly, a conflict raging between two great Maori men, and for himself he did not deprecate a conflict of the kind. If the member for Auckland West could adduce any reasons why the Native Minister should be disturbed from, his office, the matter should be fully, carefully, and exhaustively debated, but a succession of attacks such as those of the hon member referred to could only have the effect of disgusting the House, and producing a disturbing effect upon the minds of the natives. [Hear, hear.] He (Mr Moorhouse) considered that one of the greatest blessings euer conferred upon tlhe country was the assumption of the control of native affairs by the present] Native Minister. If the hon member for Auckland : City West would bring down some definite issue, he (Mr Moorhouse) would vote upon it conscientiously apart entirely from any personal inclination, but perpetual nagging on every question that ! • arose, and these absurd references to English administration, could only disgust the c6untry eventually. It was perfectly clear to him that the Opposition had little chance this time. The hopes of some of their leaders must be deferred for another session. Those hon members who called themselves " We " and assumed the authority of the House were a small minority. He assured the House that he was at qne with his con.stituents in demanding effective and proper administration, and if he found that the administration of this Government wa3 indifferent, he would not for a single moment withhold expressing his 'opinion t'6 that eGect, and, acting against. the government. "Mr HpfiSTEOUSI. said he, like many other young men, had been taught to look up to that House with reverence and respect, but he was sure that most of the new members would be as disappointed as he had been. As for Sir George Grey, whom he had always regarded in time past a 3 the great example for New Zealand youth, he could only say be had witnessed his conduct this session with pain. Mr Rpiß thought the present policy only a limited 'suc.£es,B ( ' and, anyone could have accomplished what the Defence Minister had done if they had had the ssme means at their disposal. The South had provoked the last war,'and stopped supplies at a critical moment, while had the war been continued six months longer the native rebellion would have been crushed once and for ever.

Mr Wakefield expressed surprisa at the Native Minister condemning interference with the Natives, y?hep he bad don.e the tfviu'g ! iq 18'6§. He referred at length to the blue books and said Sir D. M'Lean in preventing the departure of Ropata and his force from Napier to the assistance of Colonel Whitmore on the West Coast, bad been guilty of. disloyalty to the

Crown. | Noes and Opposition cheers.J The supposed mystery overhanging Native affairs, was, in his opinion, an absolute delusion, and this Maori doctor business one of the greatest pieces of humbug. It was perfectly marvellous to his mind how this Assembly, with the interest of the whole colony in its hands, could listen with common patience to seeing the enormous sums as appeared on the estimates for the native office and defence being asked when it was unnecessary, because the country was at peace. If there was anything in the Native Minister's assurance that he had secured a permanent peace, and that the relations between the natives and Europeans were most why vote nearly £15,000 a year for the defence and native department. The twoHhings were not compatable. He believed th& native department should be abolished and the expenditure considerably curtailed. No ill effects would follow from the former, and we should treat the natives on exactly the same footing as regards civil administration as we did Europeans. Captain Russell, and Messrs Nahe and Lusk having spoken. Mr Reader Wood thought none of the member for City West's charges had been disproved. The Native Minister was desirous of making Tawhaio a king or head policeman, and at his back he had a constabulary force, not one man of which' dare cross a certain line to capture the murderer. With such a large constabulary force as the colony was main-" taining, they should have goce into the King Country and taken the murderers. The Defence Minister had used the t unds placed at his disposal in such a way "as to corrupt both natives and Europeans. He had used them for political purposes in every direction, to obtain support for the present Government, and enrich persons who were supposed to have considerable political influence. If no other result was arrived at, he hoped the discussion would cause the House to look carefully into the native expenditure when they came to discuss the estimates, and to limit the funds placed in the hands of the hon gentleman, The House had been hood-, winked by the Native Lands Purchase department. Hon C. C. Bowen said if the speech of the hon member for Parnell meant anything at all it meant that—Put an armed force immediately intotheKingcountry. He would ask the House if it wished the Government to take such a step as that. | Noes.] It meant another Native war, and he thought the country had had enough of that. He did not pretend to know more of Native affairs than was known to a Middle Island man who had carefully watched the progress of Native affairs, but but he knew that men who passed through the ordeal of native difficulties, and who had faced them bravely, without flinching in the slightest, deprecated another native war, while those who sneered about cowardice at the anxiety of men who had their families exposed to danger had never seen a shot fired. He asked the House whether the expenditure that had been going on under the direction of his colleagues had been anything compared with Cue expenditure that would take place during sii ? * months if another war was to break out. Members had complained of the warmness of his colleague's remarks upon the member for City West, but they seemed to forget the tone in which the motion was made, and the direct attack mado on the Native Minister's conduct. He could not understand on what grounds the member for Auckland West thought it right to correspond with natives, whom he knew were not in a friendly position towards the Government. History told them what happened to a citigen of a State who entered into negotiation'with a State hostile to his own. He was somewhat surprised that the member for Auckland West with his experience, having held such a high position, and having such a reputation for the conduct of Native affairs in this country should have adopted such a course to day. Sir G. Grey, in replying, said he did not affirm of his own knowledge that the murderer was present at the interview between the Native Minister and ; the so-called Native King. What he did was to read a report; to the Southern Cross of the interview furnished by a special reporter taken up by the Native Minister. That gentleman actually; saw the murderer there, and he (Sir Gi Grey) heard from the natives that it was. correct, whilst other murderers were in the immediate Vicinity of the meeting. ' He denied that at any time he had while Governor absolute control of native'alfairs, that he knew Tapiahana was a murderer until after the escape of the natives from Kawau. He told the House that the Native Minister's meeting with Tawhaio was far from satisfactory.' The former was not welcomed. The natives state'distinctly he was received with ridicule, inasmuch as only the old women criOd "Welcome." The one constant command of the King was that the Waikato lands should be given back and the Europeans driven off, while the King's last words were, "Give me back my thumb." The statement given forth by the Government reporter that the Waikato had been taken off was uutrue; the dignity and honor of the Crowu had been degraded by an interview for the Queen's representative being submissively asked for, and the dignity of the country degraded by the Native Minister being preqeny at an interview at which muideiera were present. tie commented geverely upon tho Govern. ment misrepjecentinfji and trying to lowejhim in "the eyea of the natives. After this interview a sister of the King's wife brought him letters earnestly desiring him to go up to the Wa'kato, and he told her he could not go up through the jealousy of the Government, upon which she replied " How can you mention such a word as jealousy or consider such a thing where the welfare of a people is concerned." It waa then, he wrote the following;, the £|rgt political letter he oyer wote to. the natives. " June IQth, 1876.' Sir,—l have felt greatly distressed on account of y-our aiding and abetting murderers. I allude now particularly to the case of Winiata. Take my advioe, and do you all assent to that man being at once apprehended by Te Whero ; that he may be taken to the Courts and fairly tried. Children of mine, do not you be led astray by t&e action of Sir D. McLeau in thjs matter. The opinious of the majority of good and sensible men w}li np,t approve pf tho conduot of Sir Donald McLean in this affair. No j they will thoroughly disapprove of your aiding and protecting Winiata from justice. If this action is persisted in it will disgrace Tawhaio, and destroy his reputation. I felt absolutely a'-hamed when I heard of the line of conduct Sir D. McLeaa pursued in reference to this affair,.for I felt he had Bhown himself want»

ing in that true courage which should have made him speak the plain truth to you in this matter, as any real friend of yours should have done. Now it is my duty to speak plainly to you as a true friend, and as one who entertains a real regard f®r you, and to tell you that you should at once consent to what I have asked, in order that Tawhaio and all of you may retain a good name and reputation in the sight of your fellow-men. At present the custom followed between all civilised people is this—lf a man murders another man in any country, and if the murderer then flies and takes refuge amongst another people, the people into whose territory he has fled, allow their officers to apprehend him, and they give him up to those in whose country the man was murdered, in order that he may be fairly tried in their Courts. My children, you, the representatives of many early friends who are now dead, give, I pray, your earnest attention to these recommendations, which proceed from one who ha? a real regard for you. From your true friend, G, Grey. To Wiremu Kumiti, Te Ngakau, Hone Parengarenga Kiwi, at Te Kopua." Had Te Whero been allowed after that letter, he might have gone into the King Country and captured the murderer, because the King natives upon its receipt came to the determination to warn the two people who were doing so, against supporting Winiata, that if they did po it would be at their own risk, and the King, natives would give them no support. In demanding him the letter had excited the King natives' gratitude, and if they could they would give Winiata up, but such a length of time had elapsed that they doubted their power to do. so now. The system of giving presents to murderers and men connected with them, and of bribing the disaffected for a time, and so securing their apparent acquiescence, was producing a very bad effect, and if continued there was no hope of the well disposed being able to restrain the evil disposed from committing crimes of the atrocious nature he had described. It was due to himself that he had Bent no accredited emissaries to the King. Alley never direotly or indirectly wag an agent of his. Tho charge of disloyalty hinted at him by the Minister cf Justice was unfounded and uncalled for ; had be had the control of the police force in his province, Winiata would have been captured with the greatest of ease. As Governor he had always left the colony in a state of prosperity and peace, and the second time he came he found it driven into a war by the Defence Minister and his Taranaki friends. He had been accused of repeating accusations which he knew in the first instance to be uutrue, after they had been disproved, but in point of fact all his charges had been admitted. [Opposition cheers] ORDERS OF THE DAY. The orders cf the day were disposed of, the Wellington Rivers and other local Bills being passed, and the rest postponed. The motion for tho production of papers re the conduct of the returning officer at Port Chalmers, led to a debate, in which Mesi-rs Reynolds, Burns, Reid, Barff, Macandrew, and Stout took part. NELSON CROWN LANDS COMMISSIONER. On the motion of Mr Gibbs, it was agreed that all correspondence relative to tho resignation of the Commissioner of Crown Lands at Nelson should be tabled, Thursday, july 7. foresters' trust bill. The Foresters' Declaration of Trust Private Bill was read a second time without debate. It now stands referred to the Select Committee. MAORI MEMBER OF EXECUTIVE. In reply to Mr Tairoa, the Native Minister said the matter of appointing a Maori member to the Executive Council was now under consideration. The Government were of opinion that there should be a Native member. PUBLIC WORKS STATEMENT. The Minister of Public Works, in reply to Mr Murray, said he would probably be able to make his public works statement about the end of the month, and the Premier said the tables usually appended, to. the financial statement would also, probably be ready by the end of the month. lighthouse at akaroa, In reply to Mr Montgomery, who asked what steps have been taken to erect a lighthouse at the entrance of Akaroa Harbor, the Commissioner of. Customs said that the fittings for a number of important lighthouses were now on tljeir out, but would not be erected until the new steamer, now building at home, information of the launch of which was to hand, arrived, then as. soon as these principal lights were fairly under construction the Government would order lights 'for Akaroa, Cape Saunders, and other, places,,

DEBATE ON FINANCIAL STATEMENT. Some discussion took place as to when the debate on the financial statement shoull commence, the Premier suggested Tuesday, Sir G. Grey wanted to go on at once. Mr Stout wanted the County Bill circulated first. Mr Montgomery wanted the financial tables first, and Mr Stevens wanted as as much time as possible to consider the matter, as well as futher information on certain points which he stated. Mr Reid wanted to have the whole of the constitutional measures and the tables before them before discussing the financial policy. Mr Reader Wood thought it would be a great mistake to take the debate on the motion for going into supply as proposed. He thought the discussion had better bo postponed till all the Government measures were before the House.

Sir J. Vogel replied that he thought the remark of the member for Parnell, that they were endeavoring to shirk a discussion, was very discourteous. In answer to the member for Christchurch, Mr Stevens, as to how much of the million loan was in the handg of those in whom it was supposed to be permanently placed for investment, ho said that he had no official information on the matter ; and in regard to the hon member's second question whether a sufficient amount had been deposited with the Bank of New Zealand, to pay the £ per cent extra, that there had'fyeeu no specific agreement ac to the amount to remain in the Rank during twelve months, ' \t waa understood that the average amount should be one and a half millions during the first twelve months and £750,000 during the second. He believed the extra quarter per cent had been paid. The House should allow the Government a certain amount of discretion in conducting tho business of the House. While the Government were anxious to go into committee of supply on Tuesday, they were quite willing to Dostpone the discussion till the Tuesday following i* necessary, although he was of opinion thai the House would be prepared to go on wh the matter on Friday nest,'in which time he would probably be

in a position to bring down the Waste Lands Bill, and the other Bills referred to in the financial statement. local elections bill. On Sir J. Vogel moving the second reading of the Local Elections Bill, several members wished a postponement. Messrs Woolcock and Lumsden objected to the desire manifested to postpone the consideration of all measures. Sir J. Vogel, in replying, said he would be willing to add to the clause that the Governor in Council shall bring the Act into operation—a provision that he shall only do so at the request of the local body. The Bill was then read a second time, and its committal fixed for Tuesday. LEVYING RATES BILL. On the second reading of the Levying of Rates Bill, Mr Stout objected to the clause exempting churches and religious schools from payment of rates. The Government should have no religious opinions at all, and there should be no distinction between religious schools. Provision should be made for giving to the person rated note (served personally or through the post) of the rate or valuation made, and section 21 should be altered bo as have the Revision Court selected by district Judge or Resident Magistrate instead of the Supreme Court Judge. Mr Seymour pointed out that justices, who were members of the Legislature, might be disqualified from acting as members of the revision court. He gave notice of his intention to move that clause 22 be struck out, and he raised the question whether reserves and lands held in trust by Superintendents, were covered by the words " lands belonging to her Majesty" in the list of exemptions. Mr Fitzroy would be sorry to see subsection 4 of clause 40 struck out. In the country districts denominational schools had a great struggle to make both ends meet. Mr Kennedy urged that coal mines should be exempted from the payment of rates. Mr Hodgkinson and Mr Joyce favored an acreage rate, which|Mr Reid very strongly opposed. He advocated the imposition of an improved land tax after classifying the land. On the whole the Bill was a very desirable one.

Sir J. Vogbl, in reply, said, in reference to exempting churchee, schools, &c, the Government had adopted a medium between the Otago Ordinances, which were very liberal in this respect, and the present Municipal Corporations Act. There would be discussion enough on tbat point in com* mittee, and he was not going to anticipate that discussion. The question of acreage or annual value rate was one that would also be well considered, but the opinion expressed by the Government was in favor of a uniform annual rate. [Hear.] He did not think in devisirjg a system of local government they should go out of their beaten course to consider how to punish absentees or encourage farming. If the House determined npon either, it could be done by a separate measure. The Constitution Bills would be brought down within the week. The Bill was then read a second time, and its committal fixed for Tuesday, (Per Press Agenoy,} The House resumed at 7.30. The report of the committee of inquiry into Sir G, Grey's election for the Thames was read, and it held that Sir G. Grey's election for the Thames was quite in accordance with law in tlie colony and at home, and that he was eligible to sit for that district. Mr Stout immediatelj gave notice that on Tuesday next Sir G. Grey would declare for which constituency he would sit. The Premier moved, the second reading of the. Municipal Corporations Act, explaining its provisions. There was a general concurrence in the principles of the Act, but there was a strong desire expressed that the different constituencies of the : colony should be afforded an opportunity of expressing an opinion on the Act and offering suggestions as to amendments, while exception was taken to many of the details.

The Government expressed its willingness to consider many of the objections raised, and concurred in the desirability of not hastening its passage through committee, but depreciated the apparent desire of many hon members to postpone everything. As long as they had something to go on with, they would not hurry the Bill, but they wanted to get on with the business. The Bill was read a second time on the understanding that it would not be pressed on Avith undue haste.

The adjourned debate on. the Coroner's Act Amendment Bill was resumed.. Great exception was taken to this Bill by several hon. members on the ground that the change was unnecessary and undesirable, and that it was superseding an old system allowed by centuries, and that worked Bmoothly except in a few isolated instances. Arguments were used on the. other hand that the Bill was a desirable ohange from the sytsem that ought to have been abolished long ago. Public- harm was predicted on one side, and public benefit anticipated on the other. Strong objection was taken as to inefficiency of the medical coroner's inquiry into fires. Ultimately the Bilf was read a second time on the voices, and the House adjourned at midnight.