THE PREMIER AT WANGANUI.

Globe, Volume V, Issue 550, 23 March 1876, Page 3

THE PREMIER AT WANGANUI.

We take the following report of Sir Julius Togel’s speech at Wanganui, from the Evening Herald. We hare omitted those portions referring to matters of interest only to Wanganui, the steps taken for the inscription of Kew Zealand securities, the laying of the telegraph cable, and the management of the harbors of Wellington and Wanganui:— ABOLITION OF PROVINCES, I now come to the question of the Abolition of Provinces. During the last session of the Assembly which I attended—the session of 1874—it became evident to my colleagues and me that all hope of preset ving the provincial system was at an end, and that it was our duty in justice to the colony itself to come down at once with resolutions upon the subject. 1 do not say it did not give me very great personal regret. The Government, even then sharing with me the same regret, attempted to stem the tide by dealing with the provinces of this island. As you have no doubt heard, it was just as the atmosphere was calm and peaceful, when the session was rapidly coming to a close, wheu there was no great difference of opinion between members, and when the Government having a large support could hope to end the session with very little opposition —circumstances naturally pleasant to any Government—that those resolutions were brought down, We therefore did not come down with those resolutions without entertaining a sense of great responsibility. Wo did not bring them do'Vu because they might improve our position, for any desire of personal convenience, but we brought them down because at the cost of our own convenience we felt that our duty to the colony required us to do so. In my own case I may say that it was at the cost of many personal friendships. I bad to contemplate the severance, or let me hope the disturbance for a time only, of political friendships of long standing; for example,! had not from the time when I took office any stronger supporter or firmer personal friend than the Superintendent of Otago, Mr Macandrew. I felt for him great esteem. I felt for him an esteem 1 founded on the conviction that there was no i man in the colony more disinterested or public spirited than he was, and yet I knew so strong were his feelings in favor of provincialism that his support was likely to be lost to me. I knew well that the support 1 which he and others had long given to me would be risked when 1 came down with 1 these resolutions, but I saw —and I take no credit to myself for seeing it, because in the 1 position which I occupied I was bound to see ' it—l saw that the position of the colony 1 required the change. I became at last an 1 an advocate for,the abolition of the provinces, I as my friend Mr Bryce may say that he had ' always been. I had thought that they should 1 be continued so long as they could be, but I 1 saw the time had come when the country 1 could not support them, or, speaking in plain terms, the system was one which it was ) beyond the strength of the colony to con- 1 tinue. It was the finance question, as I j have before said, and probably shall often I say again, which made the change necessary. 1 Still, I hoped the change needed only to be 1 partial. I thought we could say to the pro- 1 vinces of the North Island —“ We will put you into a position in which your public f services can be properly continued, and your ( public works carried out by yourselves with- t out entailing on the colony a cost which it f cannot bear and that we should be able ( to say to the other provinces, “ Continue r if you like, raise your own revenues, expend 1 them, and, when you can no longer rely on t yourselves, we will adopt towards you the e same course we have adopted to the North c Island.” But we found the country was not e willing that there should be exceptional [ treatment ; that it should be “ all or none.” 1 That was the terra used, and we found that : the financial question was raising the con- t elusion more rapidly than we supposed, and i that the large provinces required to bo dealt 1 with just as well as the smaller ones ; in « fact, fired with emulation on seeing the ( immense amount of provincial work which : the colony had been doing, they were rndea- i vouring, to the utmost extent, to carry on the same thing ; and there were nine provinces, you may say, striving to spend as : much borrowed money as they could get hold of. This was a state of things which could i not be continued. When we brought down our public works and immigration policy, ( the colony had teen abandoned by the Im- i perial Government ; they had taken away 1 their troops, and left us to ourselves, with a i burthen of about £6,000,000 of debt. We i were here comparatively a handful of people, but vigorous and strong, although for the time in a depressed condition. For some time past public works and colonisation had been almost abandoned; in fact, in the North Island they had never been carried out, except to a small extent along the coast-line, therefore we said, we must see if we cannot bring to the country a larger number of persons to share its burthen, and show the people that they have something to work upon. I admit it was a bold policy, and a policy that was not applicable to many countries in the world. I think there are very few countries so favored as New Zealand ; very few which could adopt such a policy ; but I say it was a policy of necessity here, unless we wished to see the colony fall into such a depressed and languishing condition as we see existing in a neighboring colony. I do not like to make invidious remarks, but I allude to the colony of Tasmania. We were safe in our convictions, because we felt that money expended in opening up two such islands could not be thrown away, but must in the cud have good results, f Applause.J That such is the case, is proved by the result of this policy, even so far as it has gone, because we have ha -I not only added in this •ountry the people who we have brought out by means of free immigration, but we have had those who attracted by what they had learnt of New Zealand, have come at their own cost to cass in their lot here and invest their money in the colony. We have expended money in bringing people here to work, but many have also come bringing with them capital to employ that labor, and it is a fact redounding to the honor of the people of the country that there has not been any cliss complaints a*, the increase of population, such as are made in neighboring colonies, where immigration was opposed by all classes, and by the working mon especially. We have seen that instead of injuring them by increasing the population, we have added to their prosperity by enlarging the sphere and scope of the wants of the people. I of course recognise that the thing may be overdone, but whilst it is not overdone, while we are able to see that labour and capital are being concurrently brought into the colony, and if we can arrange that men who earn money by

labour are able when they cease to desire such employment, to settle upon the lands of the colony, we are safe in pursuing the policy I have described, | Applause.] I do not think that many persons realise fully the force of what I have said with respect to expenditure by provinces and by the colony. As to the colonial expenditure, when we brought down our proposals to construct trunk lines of railway from end to end of each of the two islands, we suggested that the work could be done by an expenditure of about £8,000.000, spread over ten years ; but it became so obvious as we proceeded that those works were certain to prove successful, that the greatest possible pressure was brought to bear—the pressure of the Legislature itself—to cause the hastening of the works. It was said with great force, “ If these works are going to pay, as appears certain to be the case, it is better to finish them as soon as possible, and not to have to find iuterestupon them unfinished, while they would pay much of the interest upon their cost if onlj they were finished. From 1871 to the present time we have in fact done as much work in railway construction as, under the original proposal, would have occupied at least half as much more time. Hence we have borrowed more largely and rapidly than was anticipated. New Zealand has much reason to be gratified at the fact that no other colony in a similar position ever met with such success in the money market of the world. The operation of borrowing £4,000,000, which I was instrumental in carrying out, and which has been made the subject of many spiteful remarks, was an operation which, tested by the opinions of those who, from their position and knowledge, were capable of judging, was a really astouishing success, if you will consider the position of New Zealand, and the amount it had borrowed, you will all recognise that it was a very great operation to borrow in the English money market within about forty-eight hours so large a sum of money. [Applause ] But that operation was made the occasion of many cruel aspersions in England by persons who should have allowed their knowledge of and their interests in the colony to have raised them above mere personal jealousies. Those aspersions cast upon New Zealand’s position and her borrowing, made as they were by men who were supposed to be able to judge impartially in the matter, have done a great deal to injure the colony. It is wise therefore to face the fact, and to be cautious not to show any disposition to exceed or to abuse the ciedit we possess. We have a very great work before us. We have been hurried on at a rate we did not originally intend, and we have done a great deal more than we calculated upon doing up to this time ; but a great deal remains to be done, and it would have been simply impossible for us to have gone on at the same rate, and to have allowed the provinces to continue expenditure at the rate they were expending. Very few people have a conception of how much the provinces, by the aid of the colony, have been exceeding the amounts they were justified in spending. The provinces have been year by year exceeding what they have been able to find, and year by year, by extraordinary grants, or provisions, or capitation allowances, the colony has had to supply he deficiency. In three or four months we shall have to take over the provinces. As Colonial Treasurer, I shall be very happy if there are not then any provincial overdrafts at the banks—[laughter]—if there are no outstanding liabilities, no heavy engagements to be fulfilled. Indeed, taking all the liabilities and engagements of the provinces to outside people and to the colony for extraordinary assistance during the last two or three years, I shall be happy if the amount docs not exceed half a million. [Hear, hear.] I know that in the case of one large province there was a credit balance of £200,000 at the commencement of 1876, and the authorities of which anticipate being able by the end of September next not only to spend that amount, but to “ overrun the constable” to the amount of £150,000 in addition. [Hear, hear, and laughter.] lathe face of such evidence of the ambition of some provinces to spend money, is it not peculiarly our duty to put the financial position of the colony upon a more satisfactory footing if we can possibly do so ? [Hear, hear. | Well, then, the provinces are to be taken over very soon, and it has become necessary to determine how the government of the country shall be carried on, to apportion the control between local bodies and the General Government, to decide the duties of each class of local bodies, to let each know what amount of revenue it will have to command, and to take care that the expenditure shall bo kept within proper limits. We must resolve to provide a consolidated revenue sufficient to meet all demands upon it, and we must determine that these demands shall not be in excess of what our consolidated revenue can fully satisfy. If we agree to expend borrowed money, it must be only upon lona Me reproductive works —there must be' no doubt whether any particular sum we are expending represents borrowed money or not. This must be the case with the local bodies as well as wi f h the General Government. There must not be borrowing except for reproductive purposes ; there must be a broad clear distinction between the application of borrowed money and money from ordinary revenues. What could be worse than to have nine provinces pulling in one direction, and the General Government—l vvill not say pulling in another direction—but trying its best to stand against such straining. [Laughter.] You will conclude, from what I have said, that 1 look upon our finance as demanding very serious consideration. It is not that there is any reason for feeling depression or doubt as to the position of the colony; the difficulty is to be careful that we are not unduly elated by success, and so led into expending more than we are warranted in doing. We can obtain from the people by way of revenue, and from lenders by borrowing, all the money it can be desirable we should expend. What we must resolutely enforce upon ourselves is a determination to avoid anything like excess in either direction. [Applause.] There are still to be found in the colony a few people who profess a belief that there is no reason for abolishing the provinces, and with the desire of getting in some shape a double, treble, or quadruple form of Government, they suggest various plans. Borne pronose the separation of the two islands, and the constitution of a single province in each They see and admit that the provinces, as they are, cannot be preserved, and their desire is to have, if possible, something like them. I tell you the Government will give an unqualified opposition to any and every proposal of the kind. [Loud cheers. _ Kow a groat deal has been said about the compact of 1 866. I go outside the compact altoi gether, and say I believe it is a convenient

and desirable thing for every great division of the country to have an interest in the land revenue, and the principle of the compact of 1856 is one not undesirable if we were perfectly free to recognise it. That principle I understand to be, is to set apart the laud revenue both in respect to where it arises and to the object to which it is to be devoted. But what surprises me is that those who speak about it think it should only be made, only be so long as they consider it desirable. They talk of putting all the land fund of the Middle Island into one common purse, but nothing could less represent their views of the compact. But the Government will consent to nothing which does not give the residue of the land fund] for expenditure by the local bodies, and no proposal will be accepted which would make the land fund lose its special character I believe it is the general feeling of the colony that the land revenue should be specially applied. A great deal has been said lately about this compact, but I do not myself expect that so much will be said upon the subject when Parliament meets as had been predicted. My experience teaches me, and I think my friend Mr Bryce will baar me out, that there are always during the recess innumerable prophets foretelling what will take place when the Assembly meets and the subjects which will be chiefly dealt with, and that those are the very subjects which are generally most neglected during the session. ARRANGEMENTS FOR THE FUTURE. I have as yet only spoken about the abolition of the provinces, and I will now say something about the future. 1 recognise that it has become the duty of the Government, which has been the means of asking the colony to consent to the abolition of the provinces', to supply something satisfactory in their place, to supply a form of local Government of a more inexpensive character.

[Hear, hear.] We accept that responsibility, and 1 undertake to say that we shall propose to Parliament a form of local Government which will be more satisfactory, although it will not have those features of miniature Parliamenis, and miniature responsible Governments, which characterise the present provincial system. I am happy also to say that as we approach the subject more closely, the difficulties which surround it gradually disappear. I have stated even a few weeks ago, that the abolition of the provinces was not an unmixed good ; but that it would be attended with many difficulties, extra work to Parliament, and embarrassments to Parliament—which we could not avoid ; but as we approach the work more closely, all the difficulties clear away, and ray opinion in that respect has very much altered. I believe that we will establish a system which will not entail the disadvantages I have feared. You often observe as you approach a large city, that when it comes first in view you see only a large number of buildings confusedly before you. You cannot trace the streets, even discern the direction in which the river runs, it there be one ; but as you gel gradually nearer and nearer, the place developes itself and becomes quite plain. It has been very much the same with me with respect to this local Government question. Whilst I was convinced that we must find a substitute for Provincial Governments when we disposed of the provinces, it seemed to me that it would be very diffieffit to find that substitute ; but the more we applied ourselves to - to the work, the clearer it has become, and I now express the opinion that we shall give a very satisfactory form of local governing bodies, and not entail upon Parliament many of the evils I feared—in fact, we shall so preserve the local character of these bodies, that, instead of increasing the work of Parliament, we shall rather diminish it. You will not expect me to night to go into the details of the plan ; but rather to explain its broader principles. And first to speak of principles, we want to draw a broad distinction between the great public services in the provinces, which can be carried on just as well by the General Government as hy the Provincial Governments, without in the slightest degree causing inconvenience to to anyone. For instance, the management of gaols and of the police, and such duties as the Provincial Governments perform With respect to harbours, I mean administrative duties, not those connected with harbour improvements, these and otherthiugs which go to make up the great part of the cost of Provincial Government services may as well be attended to by the General Government, and can be so attended to, not only without inconvenience to the inhabitants merely, but without the great mass of the people knowing that any changes have been made. They are services which are not more of a local character than are those connected with the Post Office or the Telegraph department. We have from one end of the colony to the other postmasters who have been appointed by, and are under the control of, the General Government, and whose salaries are voted by the Assembly ; and we are able to carry on the postal service in a manner which is, I believe, decidedly satisfactory to the colony. The services I have mentioned or indicated can be performed by incorporating the Provincial with the General Government departments, and a great deal of money may in that way be saved. There is no necessity for having a department. With a departmental head in every service in every province, we are able to cany on the General Government services without many of them. I am not complaining of what has been done. While the provinces exist each must have its distinctive staff, but by incorporation we believe that we can get rid of most of those distinctive features, and that wo can save ranch money Another principle the Government can indorse in arranging for the future is that the institutions which are to take the place of the provinces must be free from the difficulties which have sapped the foundations of provincial institutions. There must not be so much friction or conflict with the new institutions as there has been between the Provincial Government and the General Government. In short, instead of having illdefined claims upon the General Government as the provinces have had, and the consequent state ’of conflict between them, the new institutions must have functions clearly defined, so that they can be constantly worked without conflict and without friction. Last session, when we brought down our proposals for abolishing the provinces, we had no guarantee that the Assembly won d agree to tfcem, and therefore we had not even an excuse for anticipating taking possession and preparing for it, as we are now to a great extent justified in doing by the simple fact that the law says, “ On the day after the close of the next session of Parliament the provinces shall come to an end. ” [Applause.] Last session all we could do was to submit a conjectural statement of the

amount we supposed to be necessary for carrying on the provincial services obtained from a study of provincial estimates and appropriations. We had no excuse for going further, for all we knew, as a Government, was that we meant to submit to Parliament a proposal for abolishing the provinces. Now that the Parliament has said that the Superintended s shall discharge certain functions until the close of the next session, and that then the General Government shall step in, we have determined, therefore, not to remain idle until the day for taking possession arrives—not to postpone action until the new Parliament meets because the Government is always much occupied during a session, but to prepare for that work which the law tells us we must undertake on the day after the next session of the Assembly has been brought to a close. The first step was to place ourselves in a position to tell Parliament what would be the cost of carrying on the ordinary services, not calculated upon surmises drawn from the last provincial estimates, but upon our cwn estimate of the staffs with which we could carry them on. In fact, we felt that we must bring down nextsession estimates which would show the strength of the staff we should need to carry on the work of the provinces which we had undertaken ; and, as a necessary step in that direction, we had to determine how we could carry out those services. What we did was this : we went through all the provincial services and discussed how far we could incorporate them into the General Government services,and howfar we should takethemover temporarily untilrelinquished to local management. We went through the services in that way, and I will tell you the results we arrived at. These steps are preparatory to our inviting from the Superintendents of the different provinces that cordial co-operation which it is to be presumed they will give in assisting us to decide wdiat officers we should continue in the service and those with whom we should dispense. I will describe the principal decisions we have arrived at ; and, although I am going rather into details, those de ails will more clearly explain the views of the Government than if I spoke more generally. In the first instance, it became plain that there would be a number of Executive departments in the various provinces which, after a time, could be completely done away with, butjwhose unfinished work must be disposed of—departments having charge of papers, records, and so forth. At any rate, something would have to be done with respect to the unfinished clerical work, and we determined that that part of the Provincial Government should be handed over to the Colonial Secretary’s Department, and an estimate be made of the expenditure required—a very small one, I hope. Next came that very strong and important service, the police. Our first idea was to hand that service over to the Defence Department, because it must be obvious that it was most natural to incorporate the police with the armed constabulary ; but n consideration of the matter showed that to

hand over the ordinary police of the different provinces to the defence department would cause great dissatisfaction, and not without justice. Some of these police forces are of very old standing—much older than the armed constabulary. I can myself speak of one force—that of Otago—which is most efficient, and deserves every consideration; and we feel that if we handed the police over at once to the Defence Department, they might entertain the feeling that they would not receive fair treatment at the hands of the department, inasmuch as it would not unnaturally favour its own force, the armed constabulary, whilst a true reconsideration of their services would not be given to the others. It seemed therefore to us better to hand over the police to another Minister, and let it be a subject for consideration between the two Ministers, from time to time, how redaction should be made and incorporation effected. We propose that the police forces of the provinces, instead of becoming part of the Defence Department, should be placed under the Minister of Justice. It is also proposed to hand over the gaols and district gaols to the Minister of Justice. The Crown Lands, Survey, Goldfields, and Sheep Inspectors, in the first instance, will be placed under the Secretary for Crown Lands. It must not be supposed, however, that we consider it right to interfere with the local administration of the land, or to propose suddenly any great changes. We do not desire to make rapid or ill-considered changes, but it is necea-sary that every department should have a recognised head when the provincial heads are abolished. With respect to the goldfields question, I am not prepared to go into it thoroughly to-night. I will only say that we do not recognise that miners constitute a distinct class, and that mining districts are entitled to the distinctive treatment that many goldfields members advocate ; but we do recognise that mining districts are as much entitled to local control in determining what is necessary for their local interests as agricultural or rural districts are. I hope that we shall be able to devise a system which will give the mining districts much larger local control than they have yet had, and I believe that by such a system we shall do more to obviate dissatis faction than can be done by any system based upon the theory that the miners are different beings from the rest of the community. The Government are sensible that whilst they desire not unduly to interfere with local administration of the laud, that something must be done to increase the facilities for obtaining land for settlement [Cheers.] There are a great many young men throughout the colony who must be enabled to possess themselves of land upon which to settle, if they so desire, and the Government have the belief that less is to be done in that way by an artificial system of special settlements than by offering facilities to all who desire to obtain land and to settle upon it. [Applause.] Upon one point the Government have a veiy strong opinion, and that is that those who want land should pay for it, but that it should be offered on easy terms of payment. Just as a large purchaser, going into the private market, would be able to obtain easy terms for his payments. [Applause.] lam not, however, prepared to state what, if any, steps we shall take in this direction at pre-

sent. 1 have indicated the direction in which the Government are inclined to go, I 'wish to make a clear distinction between

those matters upon which the Government are prepared to take immediate action, and those as to which 1 can only give yon indications of the opinion of the Government, without saying what steps will at once be taken to give effect to that opinion. [Hear, hear.J Railways and public works in the provinces, including some branch railways and many works of different kinds, must obviously devolve upon the department of

the Minister of Public Works, but the Government will hear in mind that not a few of those will only be temporarily in charge of the colonial department, because they are of a character which makes them fairly belong to the proposed local bodies —therefore it is intended not to make any sudden or great change in the management of these works, not to temporarily transfer the charge to Wellington, but as far as possible to continue under local management all works which will have to be handed over to any of the proposed local bodies. We desire to foresee and, in every way that is in our power, to avoid inconvenience to any section of the people, though, of course, a great change like that resolved upon last session, cannot be made in a day without some wrench to existing arrangements. We intend to continue for some time local arrangements for making payments on account for such works as I have indicated. We recognise that the contractors for such works would feel aggrieved if, because of a political change, they should be compelled to send vouchers to Wellington, and be kept longer out of their money than they were entitled to calculate upon when they entered into the'contract. Local treasury arrangements will be maintained to the extent necessary to prevent public inconvenience. [Applause. | Naturally the harbor departments will be placed under the Customs, and here I may explain that I am not now speaking of harbor improvements, but those duties which the colony must carefully keep in its own hands, not those duties which 1 have already told you the Government are of opinion should be carried on by local bodies and by means of local trusts. Similar remarks may be made as to the ultimate local control to be exercised over education departments. They will find their head in some department of the General Government, and it is proposed that they should be handed over to the Minister of Justice. Hospitals, asylums, and charitable institutions will be placed under the Colonial Secretary. We propose that these institutions shall be locally managed, and it will be our duty to make proposals in that direction, so that the Government of the colony may be relieved of the charge. They will be under local management, with such assistance from the General Government as the Parliament shall decide should be given to them. In the case of education, about which I shall have a few noids to sny presently, I may now add that it is a matter in regard to which, although locally managed, it will be the duty of the Government to sec that the public money is properly expended, and they will, therefore, propose to place it under proper inspection and control. The same is the case with charitable institutions, which we must see arc properly managed. I do not think I need detain you longer with details as to the management of affairs when the provinces are abolished. I may add however that, having come to these conclusions, wc are about to send three of the ablest civil servants to all the provinces, with a view of enabling them to prepare estimates, so that we may, as I have said, form a conception of what amount of expenditure we may save in taking over these departments. These gentlemen will carry letters of introduction to the various Superintendents, who will be asked to assist them. It is quite true that we might refer them to the Provincial Auditors, who are officers of the Government, but we think it better to refer them to the Superintendents, and ask those gentlemen to give them all the assistance in their power, and place them in the position of affording the General Government such information as will enable them to place before Parliament estimates of the cost of carrying on of provincial services, I trust that the Superintendents will aid us in making these estimates. We recognise to the fullest extent that the functions of the Superintendents continue, and will continue to the end of nextsession; and no doubt they will recognise that we shall have a great and important duty to carry out when their’a shall cease, and will, therefore, consider it their duty to assist us in preparing to take over their functions. There is one point which I approach with dread, because I know how popular is the notion that the members of the Civil Service are too well treated, and that Government* are always too kind to them. But the matter now involved cannot be lightly or hastily dealt with. We believe that by the incorporation of Provincial with General Government services, a large amount of money may be saved through dispensing with a very considerable number of provincial officers, but we know that if there is not at the command of the Government means of liberally compensating officers whose appointments are taken away, whatever be the theory, the reductions made will not be anything like those which would otherwise be made without such a means of compensation. This is what will happen in the case of every officer who is put out of the service ; and—l say it from personal experience—every friend and acquaintance, every person who has an interest in his pecuniary affairs, all his friends, every one who knows him, in fact, who can by any possibility get at the Minister, will get at him with representations that a great and special hardship is done by dispensing with the officer’s services, and there will be requests, in all forms and from all sides, that another appointment may be found for him, [Laughter.’] It has too often been the case when retrenchment has been attempted, that MinifJers have been driven, merely for the sake of getting some little quietness, to find other appointments for officers who had been dispensed with. [Laughter.] Togo into all parts of the colony, and to dispense with the services of officers, merely saying to each — “ Hero is so many months’ salary for you; we have done with you”—will mean so great an amount of trouble and pain for Ministers and all concerned, that I do not believe they would be willing to undergo it. [Hear, hear.] Candidly, I would not. I do not believe that those who are ordinarily the loudest in protestations for economy and Joe Humeiam, would be willing to get rid of a large number of officers, unless they had the means ol fairly compensating them. It is customary, when abolishment of officers on a large scale is undertaken, to give to the Government means for such compensation. This is not from any desire to be extravagant. but because human nature is much the same all the world over; and nobody is willing, no matter how lively the sense of duty lie may profess or feci, to be made the means of influencing distress on a number of men and their families, who are in no respect otheff than deserving, but who are to be sacrificed to public exigency, [Applause.] The provision made by the Act of last session for compensating officers whose services it may he considered desirable to dispense with, is not sufficient. Without a more

iberal provision it is possible the reduction will not be half effected; and surely it is better, when so much will be saved yearly, to enable the Government to do fearlessly, because they can do fairly, what they think necessary, than to pretend not to be aware that the inevitable result of an inadequate scale of compensation will be to continue expenditure at a rate which is really not necessary. [Applause.] The Government will make proposals to the House for more liberal compensation than is possible under the Act of last session, but whether we shall propose that that compensation shall be in land for settlement or in money I am not prepared to say, but we are convinced that such a plan will save a great deal of money in the end, and that without it retrenchment which might be made will not be made. [Applause.] And now, in this connection, as our friends the Americans say, I ought perhaps to refer to our own Civil servants. It is very easy to say that the service is too expensive, and that the number of servants is too great. I believe myself that there may be parts of the country where Civil servants might be called npon to perform dual doty, and where some officers might be dispensed with, but I do not think that the civil servants are over paid. On the contrary, considering the rise in price of articles of consumption and in house rents since the public works policy was commenced. I think that the civil servants have been sufferers by that policy. They feel that they have suffered rather than benefited by it. So much, however, has been said that, in the interest of all concerned, enquiry is desirable, and the Government will so present information as to enable Parliament to consider next session whether the service Is extravagant or not. You will agree with me that though the colony is prosperous, and can afford to pay its officers, it should not have unnecessary officers ; and I am quite prepared to admit that possibly in a few localities there may be more officers than are required, and that in the face of the many assertions that have been made it is right the Government should supply Parliament next session with such information as will enable it to judge whether the service is extravagant or not and of the means by which it can be reduced, I have now told you what we propose to do in respect to taking over the provinces, I have endeavored to show that we are not going to sit tamely by and say— 11 We passed the Act last session ; we are not going to do anything now, but will wait and see whether Parliament will reverse its decision next session.” That Act which was passed is the law, and we feel bound to give effect to it; therefore we are not going to be quite unprepared at the end of the session to take over the provinces. We are going to accept the law as it stands, and qualify ourselves to carry it into effect. [Great applause.] I think a great moral effect would follow this course. While things go on as smoothly as they do now, it is impossible for some Superintendents to realise the fact that a change is about to take place. They see dav by day the same officers coming to their offices, they receive still the same deputations, and they still read the same adulations in the few newspapers that support a continuance of provincialism. They cannot realise the fact that a change is about to take place, but now they will really see how the case stands, and that, whilst they attempted in Parliament to oppose the change, it is now their duty, since Parliament has decided against them, to enable the General Government to carry out the law, I think a great moral effect will arise from the General Government showing itself prepared to take over the provinces. COUNTY SYSTEM. I will now say a few words about the system of counties, for that is what we propose to call them, whichiwe intend to submit to Parliament next session. You are doubtless aware that whilst there was a unanimous feeling last session in favour of abolishing the provinces, still there was a feeling that the General Government should not absorb all the power—that the central power should not b« increased, but rather diminished—that there should be some extended and real system of local government. That was the view which influenced many persons in voting for the abolition of the provinces. There were a great many opinions as to the form which the local government should take, but it was agreed on all hands that it was desirable that the expenditure on works of a local character out of the residue of the land revenue should be handed over to the local Governments without a separate Parliamentary vote. The Bill which the Government introduced last session was modelled on Acta in force in some of the neighbouring colonies, by which Shires are erected out of Road Boards on something of the Darwinian principle of the survival of the fittest. That Bill did not find favour, and is no doubt open to the charge that these changes are not, as a rule, made without great opposition and conflict between the various bodies concerned. We now propose a system by which counties would be entirely distinct from road districts —in fact, neither will have control over the other. We propose to keep them quite distinct, each having its own duties, and each having its own revenue; and, while they will be able to come to any agreement between themselves as to any general works, it will not be necessary for them to do so, or to enter into opposition or conflict with each other. The general idea is this : First of all, we consider that the present provincial boundaries are too large, and are not suitable for the future divisions of the country. W« propose that the whole country shall bo divided into counties, and these divisions shall be made after due consideration. I am not prepared to say at present whether the Government will do this, or invite the House to do it, or appoint a commission to do it. It is enough to say that the Government propose that the country shall be divided into counties, and that the boundaries of those counties shall be subject to alteration if found desirable. We propose, in the first place, the Government, or Parliament. or probably the Governor, shall—arbitrarily, if you like so to call it—make in each county not more than seven divisions ; and. if it should be thought desirable, those divisions sha’l return each at least one member to the County Board, the members to be not more than seven, and the Board so constituted shall have the power to reconsider the question of increase of the number of njpsabers, subject to the limit which, I think, wc should set—that no Board shall consist of more than nine members. We propose that the Board first elected shall exist for twelve months only, and that there then shall be a fresh election, subject to any permitted modifications which the first Board may have made. We think that the Boards so elected should exist for three that

nstead of the system which is adopted in connection with most municipal bodies, of Borne members retiring, and the vacancies being filled up by elections each year, all the members should continue in office for three years, and the whole of the members be reelected at the same time. The County Chairman, we incline to think, should be elected by the whole constituency of each county. It is quite possible that it may be found necessary that the Chairman should be a paid officer, in which case he should be paid out of the county revenue ; but, in order to prevent County Boards becoming in any sense political bodies, or the creation of any of those difficulties which have been encountered under the Provincial system, we are of opinion it is desirable that no County Chairman should be eligible to sit in Parliament. [Applause.] We propose that the County Boards shall have charge of the main roads in the county, that it shall be their duty to maintain those roads, and to construct [other large works which may be for the benefit of the districts they comprise. The duties of County Boards will be quite distinct from those of Road Boards—they will be confined to the construction and maintenance of arterial works within their own district, which will each represent a large division of the colony. The Boards should have means at their disposal. You are aware probably that by the Act of last session, Parliament decided that there should be a contribution of £2 from the consolidated revenue for each £1 raised by local taxation not exceeding Is in the £l, and that there should be an equal amount contributed out of the land revenue. The Act provides that this contribution of £2 to £1 should be paid to Road Boards, but, by a subsequent clause, it was provided that in case of Shires being formed, the whole amount should be paid over to them. A like provision was made as to license fees, but what we intend to propose is that the subsidies from the consolidated revenue and the land revenue shall be equally divided between Road districts and County Boards, and that the license fees shall go wholly to County Boards—County Boards to to have the tolls on main roads, and also to have power to levy special rates for specified works, provided that the works and the amount of the [rate be first approved by a properly convened meeting of ratepayers [Applause]—so that while we shall propose to give the County Boards very large powers, we shall also provide that the constituents of those Boards shall be able clearly to express their wishes and to take care that those wishes are carried into effect. [Ap plause.] I have spjken of constituents, and you will naturally ask, who are they to be ? Our proposal will be that the electors for a county shall be all those persons who qualify themselves by payment of rates. The electors within road districts would be the electors in counties. It may ba possible, but I do not think it will be at all general, that in some parts of the colony it will be considered desirable to have a county, but not to have Road Boards ; and in any such case, the subsidies which I hare mentioned would go wholly to the County Boards. The electors in road districts will be electors in counties, but the County Boards will be entirely independent of Road Boards, and the latter ought out of their own revenues to be well able to carry on their functions, as they have been in the habit of doing. We consider it desirable not to mix up legislation with respect to the two bodies, and therefore, while we propose to deal with counties next session, I am not prepared to say we will deal with the other bodies except so far as to enable existing Road Boards to continue their functions, if any legislation should be found necessary for that purpose. There is another matter which it is important to mention, which I hope will find favor in your eyes and in the eyes of the colony. We do not propose to include any borough in any county. We think the boroughs should be as distinct as any county or road district. The counties will not, therefore, find them selves swamped, as in the past, by the towns. The counties and towns will have independent existences, and yet, whenever it is necessary to come to any general arrangement, it will be quite possible for the county, the borough, and the road district to co-operate and arrive at mutual agreement. Nor do we lose sight of the necessity to keep down the expenditure of the counties, if the counties are willing to forego the maintenance of expensive staffs. The General Government will assist them as much as possible. We will, I believe, make provision by which, by agreement with a county, the Public Works Department would carry out or maintain for the county any work agreed upon. That would be a voluntary agreement between the county on the one side and the Public Works Department on the other. We also propose that a county should have the power to borrow on the revenue raised by special rates, and cn general property and tolls, but not upon subsidies. We propose to keep these revenues so distinct that in future the colony shall not be liable for the indebtedness of any county. I cannot sufficiently express my opinion of how important is that provision. For a long time it has been impossible for. the provinces to borrow, because it was impossible to get out of the position that if the provinces borrowed the colony was liable for the debt. That is not the case, and must not be the case with the new counties—they must borrow upon their means) which they possess, and with the consent and approbation of the ratepayers, The money they expend must be obtained upon their own security, and not upon the security of the colony. The colony will have enough to do to borrow for its own works ; it has still a very great work to perform, for it has the grand system of trunk railways to Carry out, which we have so vigorously commenced. We do not want our railways to finish at thirty miles north of Christchurch, and forty miles out of Nelson, or that there should be no railways in Westland, and we do not want that the railways from Wanganui should close in one direction at Rangitikei and on the other at Waitotara, We want that the provinces in this island should have entire communication with each other, and so with the provinces of the other island. We must bear that in mind, and we must remember that our own responsibility will require to be carefully attended to. It will be our duty to do with as little borrowed money as possible until our railways give evidence, which I must say they are beginning to do in a remarkable manner, that they can pay a considerable portion of the interest on the money out of which they have been constructed. [Cheers,] If this new system fulfils all expectations, it will be a system which will give to the country the most complete local Government system it is possible to contrive. Wo RbsU Hare a tkwj of local bcdiei

throughout the country, which possessing special and peculiar functions will save Parliament inu.;h responsibility and care. They will relieve Parliament of many of those duties upon which members have looked with great dread, because they arc called upon to deal with matters with which very few are acquainted. We shall have separate borough, road district, and county governments, and each body, it is presumed, will carry out its functions withoutcominginto contact with the others. We shall arrive at. this result without renewing the provincial form of government. Care will be' taken to prevent any heavy staff expenditure ; but you will have a much better system of local control than anything you could possibly name. EDUCATION. I will now say a few words upon the question of education. I cannot give you any absolute pledge upon the subject, but the view of the Government is that it is desirable to abolish the special education rate which now exists in some parts of the colony. [Applause.] It is also our view, that whilst there should be a general control over education throughout the country, there should be a much larger amount of local control than now exists in some parts ; that there should be large school committees, amenable to school boards somewhere : and that, generally, the management should be much more local l ban it now is. I believe that in addressing this meeting I am speaking to those who have peculiar opportuniti s for judging of the disadvantages of the want of local con trol over local schools. [Applause.] On the other hand, we do not desire to destroy or upset the special features of the educational systems to be found in diffe:ent parts of the colony. As to the action to be taken on this subject next session, some Bill we must introduce : but whether it will be a complete measure of consolidation I cannot say. Our desire will be to abolish special rates, and to secure local control and management; and it will be not only our desire, but our paramount duty, to endeavor to secure that an educational system should be thoroughly carried out from one end of the colony co the other. We shall seek to insist that whilst we give local control there shall not anywhere be local neglect; for we are not willing to allow that in any part of New Zealand an uneducated population shall grow up. [Applause.] IMMIGRATION AND RAILWAYS. Allow me to add to what I have said with regard to railways and immigration, that we recognise immigration as a subject of the greatest possible importance, and that it must receive the utmost consideration. We must continue to introduce immigrants as they are required; but we must take care that we do not bring in more than are required. In every part of the colony there must be the most jealous watchfulness as to both those points; and with the facilities we now have for almost instantaneous communication with Great Britain, I think we should not have difficulty in getting all the fresh population we require without the risk of over immigration into any part. It is an essential portion of (he policy of the Government to continue immigration in such manner, and to such extent, as may appear desirable; and we regard the question as one not for counties, or boroughs, or districts of any kind, but as a colonial question. [Applause.] We are not going to abandon our railway policy. We look upon it as our duty—proceeding more slowly, it may be, than hitherto —to continue the construction of a trunk system through each island. [Applause.] We will not be content with fragments of lines, we will complete a thorough trunk system if the country will support us in doing so. Some provinces may conceivably say—“ We have the railways we want, and we do not care about the construction of more elsewhere.” But I do not think that will be generally said or felt. I have not found evidence of any such selfishness, and the more we recede from the provincial system, the more will mere boundaries cease to have force in men’s minds, and the more will we find a readiness to look upon questions as affecting New Zealand as a whole, instead of as interesting only to parts of it. EXISTING PROVINCES AND COUNTY BOUNDARIES. Of course when one is speaking under a sense of great responsibility, and having to go into many details, one is liable to overlook remarks he intends to make, and I find I have omitted to mention a most important matter, namely, that we do not consider that it will be either desirable or necessary that the counties should be conterminous with the provincial boundaries. Whilst in some cases the whole of a county may be in an existing province, we also see that in other cases counties should extend over each side of the boundaries of a province. That raises a very embarrassing question, or rather a question which seems embarrassing, that is, how are you going to divide the residue of the land revenue ; if the residue of the land revenue is to be divided, and the county oversteps the boundary of the province, how are you to apportion the residues of the two provinces? We have thought that matter out. In the first instance, on what principle would you divide the residue? If on the basis of population, then you give the more settled and wealthier districts the lion’s share, and leave the less peopled districts at a disadvantage. We think that would not be right, and we propose to divide the residue, and make half payable to the counties on the basis of population and the other half on the basis of area. This will give recognition both to area and population, and will do away with the difficulty. It will be easy under such a system to say, “ Here is a county with so many thousands of acres in province A, and so many thousand acres in province B, and also so many hundred inhabitants in province A, and so many in province B. Then the share of the residue o r the land revenue which the county will receive for area, will be from province A, as the proportion of its area in that province is to the whole area of the province so will be its proportion to the half of the whole residue. Similarly will the area proportion in province B be decided, and by like rules of nroportion will the population share in each province be ascertained. This is a matter I should have referred to before, I trust you will forgive me for having put it rather out of its place. PROVINCIAL CHARGES FOR RAILWAY INTEREST, There is another point and a very important one to which I must refer. We have found that the present system by which the provinces each continue to be responsible for deficiency of interest on the cost of the construction of the railways within its boundaries is very unsatisfactory. We have to keep a separate system of accounts and separate management in each province, in order to tell how much is to bo charged against each. This involves so much difficulty that we

propose to ask Parliament next session to authorise the Colonial Government to take over the control and management and liabilities of all the railways in the country. [Applause.] I may say, apart from the financial aspect of the question which has to be dealt with, but which I do not propose to enter upon now, this is one of the most important matters wa have to deal with. In fact, the Minister for Public Works has put it in the strongest manner, and says, *■ If I am to be asked to continue to manage the railways as they are now, I cannot do it.” If we want to take a railway from one province into another we have to keep separate accounts in each. In a few days the railway from Canterbury to Otago will run across the Waitaki, and we shall have to keep two separate accounts of expenditure and receipt. It must be remembered with respect to the provinces being responsible for the railways in future, that whilst we can keep some accounts between the provinces and the colony now, because they are distinct, these accounts will be almost imaginary when the provinces cease to exist, and the debts from one to the other will have a very unreal character. It would be as if Brown and Jones, being in partnership, should suddenly call themselves Brown and Co. and Jones and Co., and should proceed to draw on each other and keep accounts of the transactions. I hope that in future we shall have such a system of finance that we shall not find the provinces with deficiencies which the colony has to make up, for the provinces when they cease to exist can hardly be said to owe us money However, I do not wish to enter into the financial question to night. In conclusion, let me invite you to visit, in fancy, after the changes I have indicated have taken place, any part of the country which is now a province. The provincialists talk as if there is to be a fearful change when the provincial system comes to an end. I think, however, that you may after the end of next session go through a province and not be aware that the Superintendent and his Executive have passed away. You may be quite indifferent whether the police and the gaols are controlled by a Superintendent or by the General Government. If you take up a morning paper you may miss the old reports of deputations that have waited upon his Honor ; but you may find consolation in reports of meetings of county boards or road boards. [Applause.] You may not stumble upon Superintendents, or Provincial Executives, upon the expensive incidentals and auxiliaries of Provincial Governments ; but you may find that matters relating to roads and public works are being attended to by local bodies called county boards and road boards. You may not be greeted by wrangling over the conflicting claims for aid preferred by chief cities, towns, and outlying districts; but that loss may be borne, when you find in operation local bodies with duties clearly defined, revenues securely allotted, and powers of combination, but no grounds for covetous quarrels. You may not see in contrast to schools flourishing in some places, children running wild in others, because there are no schools to which they can be sent ; but you may find everywhere a proud determination that the population of New Zealand shall be an educated population [Applause.] You will learn that the charge, of harbors is in the hands of the General Government, but that local Boards with funds at their command attend to the improvements of these harbors. If you travel by railway and pass from one former province to another, you will be indifferent whether your fare would have represented a profit to the defunct Government of the former or a loss to that of the latter ; but you will, no doubt, learn that the railways of the country are managed upon a comprehensive and liberal system . You may find—for we desire that it shall be so—that charitable institutions are subsidised, and that the General Government interests itself in them as far as is necessary for seeing that the subsidies are properly applied, but that otherwise the control and the management are local. I think that upon such a survey, you would not be likely to regret the absence of anything that had been prized as provincial, when you found every where present evidence of the operation of a system of local government in the truest and best sense of the words—certainly far truer and better than was ever attempted under the provincial system. I think you will find the whole machinery of Government running more smoothly, and costing far less, than before ; and that you will discover the colony to be much less disturbed by unexpected financial difficulties. I believe that, whether they have been successful or unsuccessful, provincial authorities have been actuated by a public and disinterested spirit; but I do not believe that, under such a system as I have sketched, any one will have reason for even momentary regret that they have passed away. | Applause.] I thank you very much for the kind and attentive hearing you have given me. If I have appeared tedious forgive me, and believe that I have felt that I should not have been d nng justice to you or to myself, if I had failed to enter into details, for fear of their not being interesting to you. [Applause, j I sincerely trust that, as long as my connection with Wanganui may continue, I shall never be less pleased with my constituents than they are with me. [Prolonged cheering, during which the hon gentleman resumed his seat, his speech having occupied two hours and eight minutes.] Mr West asked if the Government intended to introduce an Education Bill next session ; if so, whether it would be founded on a system of secular education or otherwise ? Sir Julius A'ogcl repeated part of the explanation already given, and added that no measure on the subject would be introduced by the present Government which would uot be of a thoroughly secular nature. [Loud applause.]

Mr Waters asked if it was the intention of the Government to propose addition ! taxation during next session ? Sir Julius Yogel replied that if the Government had made up its mind on the subject there would be no objection to stating what the conclusion come to was ; but he could give his assurance that the Government had come to no conclusion upon the subject. He might say that they did not go with those theorists who contended that whether or not extra taxation was desirable, a property tax and income tax would be acceptable. Those taxes could no doubt be very well paid by the country, but wou'd be a very great nuisance and be exceedingly unpopular. He was of opinion that the Government should not propoaesuch taxation unless it was absolutely necessary. It must be recollected, also, that as the railways become more completed they would give larger returns. The railways already constructed were now paying ; and it was a

great result, that over and above their working expenses they were recouping about half the interest on what the colony had borrowed for their construction, [Applause ] The lines were at present merely fragmentary, and it was right to look for greater results when they were completed and ran from end to end of each island. If the colony could tide over without additional taxation for a time, he thought it might get on without it altogether. He would much rather that New Zealand should be looked upon as a colony without a property or an income tax, than that it should follow the example of Victoria. He hoped the Government would be able to avoid such a course. They would endeavor to avoid it, and he believed they would succeed in doing so, [Loud applause.]