GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume IV, Issue 412, 7 October 1875, Page 2

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

(By Electric Telegraph.) {From a correspondent of the Press.) LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Tuesday, October 5. ABOLITION BILL. At the evening sitting, Hon Dr Pollen moved the second reading of the Bill, and said that so much attention had been already absorbed, and so much had been said, that were it not that he desired to place on record the opinion he held upon the subject, he would scarcely have troubled the Council with any remarks. With regard to the seat of Government, he thought that was settled by the Act of 1863, and was of opinion that further legislation was not necessary in that direction, because they had no desire to change what the force of circumstances had brought about. A tyrannical majority had decided that the seat of Government should be Wellington, though a standingorder then in force had tobe brought into operation in order to shut up a long and stormy discussion, and to silence a tyrannical minority ; perhaps it would have been well had that standing order not been repealed, so that it might have been used on a recent occasion. All views as to the unsuitability of Wellingtonhad been modified, and if occasionally they did see an elderly Demosthenes defending the so-called popular rights of talking against time, all were opinion that the politics of Wellington were not more stormy than elsewhere. He then referred to the land question, and the complaints which had always been made as to the unequal burdens imposed upon the various provinces, owing to the arrangements of the past, especially that between the North Island provinces and the New Zealand Company, and traced the his tory of the land question from the compact of *1856 down to the present. He traced the history of the colony from its first settlement, and in reference to Sir G. Grey, said he raised the colony from a state of chaos to an orderly condition; in fact, placed the colony on its feet again, and wdl earned the honors which Her Majesty had been pleased to bestow upon him, and deserved better recognition at the hands of

the colonists than he received But during this time, the Government was the most despotic that was in existence in any dependency of the British Crown, except Norfolk Island, and the Governor had not then learned to value responsible Government and popular Governments and liberties so much as they had since been valued. He sketched the leading incidents in Sir George Grey’s Govcrnoiship —the charge laid against him of habitually writing untruthful despatches, the petition for his recall, the petition of right, the proclamation of Constitutional Government, the institution of Provincialism, the meeting of the General Assembly, &c, The first complaint against the centralising influence of provincialism was heard in 18 r >B, Since then the provinces had increased to nine, most of whom were governed under a system of responsible Government, with Ministerial crises, &c, but in some, as in Auckland, despotisra or rather Cmsarism was in vogue, for the Council passed resolutions one day, and rescinded them the next for the simple reason that they would interfere with the plans of the Superintendent. The question was—are these institutions to continue 1 That was the question which had been settled by the people long since, and the Legislature was now asked to give effect to the views of the people. The physical difficulties v'hich once rendered provincialism a necessity were gone, as was strikingly illustrated by the fact that the conductors of the Otago administration could hold office as provincial administrators, and at the same time conduct the other duties in Wellington devolving upon them by virtue of their constitutional offices and as members of her Majesty’s Opposition. And again public works and immigration now were undertaken by the General Government, and had passed out of the hands of the Provincial Governments. The question as to whether the Legislature had power to abolish the provinces was hardly worth debating. He did not intend to discuss it. Ample time bad now elapsed to enable all parties to get the opinion of the highest authorities on the subject, and when he said ho apprehended that there would be no difficulty, the Council would doubtless be satisfied ou that point.

Hon Mr Waterhouse had listened with interest to hear if the Premier would give a reason for the introduction of the resolutions of last year. He had desired to hear the antecedent circumstances of those resolutions, because he remembered that they had had been introduced in a moment of anger with the avowed intention of crushing an, opponent. He intended to vote for the Bill because his vote would be in accordance with his long established views. He was not a new convert to centralism, or rather a colonial policy, and should not then show a new born zeal by attacking the institutions of the past. Provincialism had been a necessary consequence of the early difficulties of the colonists, owing to the geographical configuration of the colony ; and although he would not say the provinces had not made mistakes, he would say they had done much towards the development and progress of the colony and the proper administration of the land fund, and provincial misgovernment had not been more flagrant than that of the General Government. Many inconveniences had resulted from provincialism, but the greatest of all was the uncertain character of provincial legislation, owing to the difficulty of keeping within its bounds and abstaining from encroaching upon the supreme power. Another fault was its insufficiency to meet the requirements of the colony. For instance, the surveys, so far as particular provinces were concerned, might be admirable, but when looked at from a colonial point of view, they were unsatisfactory in the extreme, and other matters showed the same failure to legislate for the whole colony.. There was scab in sheep in other colonies. This disease had been eradicated, but not in New Zealand, solely owing to the want of united action. Provincialism had also fostered local jealousies ; oue province prevented its cattle aud sheep from finding their way into the markets of another province, and ships arriving in a port of one province had been placed in quarantine ostensibly because the ship had first touched at the port of a rival province. The necessity for provincialism had passed away when improved means of communication had come into use, and there was now less trouble in governing New Zealand from Wellington than there had been a few years ago in governing Otago from Dunedin. As England, from John O’Groat’s to Land’s End could be governed from London, so New Zealand, from the Bluff to the Bay of Islands,, could be governed from Wellington. In places oufcof the colony peoplecould scarcely realise the complex system of Government existing here, and to illustrate this view the hon gentleman mentioned a conversation he had had with persons in Europe. One of the chief reasons which should induce him to vote for the abolition was the belief that a large number of persons of great ability, being set free from provincial politics, would; turn their attention to the affairs of the ■ whole colony. Public opinion too would be' strengthened, and rendered sound and; healthy. At present public opiniom was confined to local politics, which were made to be supreme. If this were done away with, aud public opinion fostered and brought to bear upon the General Government, the good effect upon the colony would be soon apparent. It was a hope of this consummation which mainly influenced him. With reference to the financial proposals of the Government, he asserted that they could not be carried out for any length of time. In other colonies, where Government bad a land fund and were free from all difficulties which surrounded New Zealand finance, such a liberal assistance to the local authorities could not be afforded, and he submitted that if it could not be done in more favoied places, it could not be done in New Zealand. He believed that even next session the proposals would have to be modified or an extraordinary amount of taxation must necessarily bo imposed to put the large sum into the treasury which this scheme would require. He referred to the arguments against the Bill, aud said the liberties of the people would not be interfered with. The General Government were the true conservators of their liberty, and not the Provincial Governments, or rather the people themselves, for so long as the people were educated up to the present standard in the land, their liberties would not be lost. In connection with the cry that the people should have time to consider the matter, he concurred in that, but it had struck him that the people had seemed to have settled the matter already, for at almost every meeting called to consider the matter, they had decided at the outset that the abolition of the provinces

was desirable. That expression of opinion was really all that was desir'd, for cmi

stituencies would have to d a! with ihc principle only, and leave the d'-iails to tlm representatives. He should vote for the Bid in its entirety.

Hon Mr Chamberlain opposed the Bill, although he supposed his opposition would not avail much. In fart he had been told that only another and he would support his view. That might be, but still, if he were the only opponent, he should speak and vote against it. As for the financial proposals, they were a mockery, delusion, and snare. He did not say it was undesirable to abolish the provinces, but he thought, the attempt to pass the Bill without consulting the people, and without having first distributed the Bill throughout the colony for the people’s consideration, was very unjust. He moved that the Bill be read a second time that day six months. Hon J. Johnston seconded the motion. Hon Mr Whitmore said the Government deserved very great credit for having brought forward the measure, as in having thrown aside their previous supporters they had proved their courage and honesty. He had not voted with them frequently during the past six years, but he should give them bis vote on the present occasion with the greatest pleasure. He did not suppose there would be a great saving of money, or that their sessions would be any shorter. He believed they would have long and troublesome sessions, but all this would be compensator* for by the growth of a national feeling. The best men would give up local politics and come face to face with the difficulties of the .country. The people hitherto had seemed ■to forget New Zealand's interests in furtherring the interests of the particular province in which they happened to have settled. He hoped that would be done away with. He approved of ■the measure, because he thought the public credit would be improved. The debenture holders in England watched the course of events here narrowly, and when they saw that immediately after a large loan the colony was endeavouring to consolidate their security, their confidence would bo increased. He believed the colony had great reason to look back with pleasure on the present administration, and attributed their ilaches to the defects in the original constitution, which had been absurdly drafted :after the American constitution. It they bad been purely administrative, he believed (they would not have been swept away, but would have solved the puzzle of real local self government—a puzzle the solution of which exercised the mind of all AngloSaxons. He regretted the presence of the appropriation clauses; but having got so far he thought it would be exceedingly wrong to go back, or in any way endanger the safety of the measure. He was glad they had conquered themselves, and had got rid of all local jealousies, and the setting of place against place, which had hitherto been the bane of the colony. He trusted they had now entered a newera which would add to the prosperity of New Zealand. Hon Mr Hart said that from the very outset he had believed the colony would be over-governed, and had felt that Provincial Government would become an encumbrance to useful work. At an early time he had expressed these views, and subsequent events bad but strengthened them. The other branch of the legislature had been much interfered with by a conflict of interests, and measures desirable for one province which affected another province were opposed by the members representing the latter with a total disregard of what was good for the colony. He mentioned, as an illustration the opposition to the appointment of an inspector in bankruptcy, which was almost a necessity ; but owing to local jealousies it had not been done. Again, the proposal to borrow £400,000 for the purposes of defence in the North Island, the people of the South Island had objected to bn made responsible for, and the North Island had to bear it. That had been a proposal in accordance with sound public policy, for if the North Island suffered from war, immigration to the South Island and consequently its prosperity would be interfered with. Thin colonial finance had been paralysed by the action of the provincial members ; for the several provinces uniting together could prevent any Government from carrying out its plans He expressed very great satisfaction at the prospect of this state of things coming to an end. He admitted that the provinces had been useful, but, as had been said before, improved means of communication had caused the necessity for their existence to cease. He complimented the Government on having brought the measure forward, and said the people, through the press and public meetings, had signified their approval of it.

A motion was made by the Hon Mr Buckley for the adjournment of the debate, which was negatived. Hon Mr Menzies remarked that after the full treatment the measure had received at the hands of another branch of the legislature, it might seem ungracious and even arbitrary for the Council to dismiss it after one night’s consideration. In .speaking to the question, he referred to the power given to Sir G. Grey to establish six provinces, and said he believed that gentleman had made a cardinal mistake in dividing the colony into six provinces instead of establishing six provinces in the colony, for evil had resulted from this; and another error was committed in calling the Provincial Councils into existence before the General Assembly, thus giving the latter the appearance of being subsidiary, and giving the provinces a taste of the sweets of power. In reference to the conflict between the centres of population and the outlying districts, much might be said on both sides, but the worst phase of the question were the struggles in Parliament which followed. He had always leaned towards colonialism in preference to centralism, and if he did not altogether approve of the measure it was because of the fear that they might go too far and sweep away local administration, which the General Government could never grasp, but must be conducted by a local Government. He did not approve of the measure, but he had expected from the first blow given to provin- , cialism in 1867, when the provincial debts were consolidated, through succeeding years, that the measure would come. The Bill was destructive and not constructive, and that he thought objectionable. Government, before sweeping away, should have raised up institutions to take the place of those swept away. In a democratic country like this, . institutions must have the favor of the , people, and the best way to secure that favor ■ was to how them and allow them to approve those institutions under which they were to

j be governed. He did not think the proposal ! of the Government worthy of the occasion. He did not think Road Boards sufficient to supply the place of the present institutions. A higher organisation was necessary, in order that the Colonial Parliament might get rid of such parochial mailers as had been before them this session, as for instance a ToUgates Bill, &c, which would come before Parliament in shoals if something was not clone. Hoad Boards were not fit for exercising this power, and he hoped something would be done during the recess to constitute a* body capable of dealing with tolls, ferry rates, taxes on stock, suppression of noxious weeds, and a host of such matters, which, while above the work of Road Boards, si ould not be brought before the Colonial Parliament. The consolidated revenue was but two and a half millions, from which he drew this deduction, that although the Government might be able for one or two years to meet the charge without recourse to the land fund they must in a very short time, notwithstanding the compact of 185(5, and all promises now made, have to turn upon the land revenue, though he did not place much importance upon these matters. The question of the proper administration of local affairs was in his mind much more important. He admitted that he was quite prepared should the necessities of the colony demand it to give up the land revenue for general purposes, lie believed it would be indispensable that the General Assembly should be able to apply the land revenue both of the North aud South Islands to the liquidation of the annual general charges, and he further believed no provinces would be disposed to withhold their revenue if they saw that the necessity of the country demanded it, or that somejprovinces for want of assistance were subjected to heavy and unnecessary taxation. Therefore he was not disposed to criticise closely the financial proposal of the Government, although he had no doubt that they had no desire whatever to mislead the public. With reference to the remarks made by the Premier that the Otago members were enabled to perform the work of a Provincial Ministry, also that of members of the Colonial Parliament at the same time, and were able to govern the province from Wellington, he would point out that substitutes were left there. There was a Deputy-Superintendent and acting administrators, who performed all the work with sca;cely any interference from those absent from Otago. It was said that many persons would be free to become members of the Colonial Parliament, but he doubted it. Many persons were able to travel a day’s journey from home and attend the Provincial Council for a few weeks, but very few would be able to come to Wellington and stay perhaps three months, or as in the future it might be six months ; nor did he think the abolition of the provinces would affect the character of the Assembly, for instead of having members accustomed to such work and possessing a knowledge of the forms and procedure as Provincial Councillors were, it might be that they would have a class of men totally ignorant of all this necessary information. There would be no schools for training men, and that this training had been beneficial was clear from the fact that even this session men trained as Provincial Coun cillors had come to the House and had proved themselves capable of holding their own against older members of the House of Representatives, The same thing was occurring day after day, but if they swept this institution away, that training school would be lost. Road Boards would not educate a man for political life. He should vote against the second reading, Hon J. Johnston opposed the Bill, and said if blows had not been struck at the Provincial Governments by the Central Government, there would have been no attempt at abolition, for the Provincial Governments would have had plenty of means to carry on with. He considered that the Council should give real effect to the 27(h clause, and reject the Bill, so that the people might express their opinions on the matter. So far there had been no genuine expression of opinion from the electors, for public meetings were worthless tests. He complained that the Ministry last session had put words into the mouth of the Governor when proroguing Parliament which were untrue. It was said in the Governor’s speech that from the debates which had taken place in the Council there was no room to doubt that the Council would affirm the desirableness of doing away with the provinces, whereas no such debates had ever taken place. He expected an explanation from the Government. They should keep and improve Provincial institutions, for they had done good, and the principle of provincialism had lately been introduced into the Belgian constitution, with the exception that instead of elective Superintendents an appointee held the corresponding office. He referred to the prosperity of Belgium, and said that no one had heard that because of the increase of railways and telegraphs it was sought to do away with the constitution. He also quoted Switzerland in support of the system. He urged that the Council should give the people an opportunity of looking into the matter, and expressing their opinion through the ballot box. He contended that New Zealand had no cause to complain of the Provincial system, . The prosperity and progress of the colony had been surprising, and anyone who had visited either Victoria or New South Wales would see that this colony compared more than merely favorably with them. Railways, telegraphs, roads, and badges, extended in every direction, aud this not alone in one province, but in every province throughout the colony. Even in Hawkes Bay he had been [surprised to see the amount of work which had been done. Audit mght be true, as had been alleged, that there had been complaints about Superintendents fighting on the floor of the House for money ; but suppose they had done so, for whom had they fought ? Was it not right for a Superintendent to look after his province, and could anyone say that the money so obtained bad been improperly used or expended ? Lot the Council not hastily abandon I hat which they now knew as beneficial, for something they knew not what. The Premier had told them nothing, when moving the second reading of the Bill, of what was to come after—what they were to have in place of the provinces. True, there were certain money clauses to the Bill which provided for a donation to Road Boards, but hon members had already declared that it was questionable if these sums could possibly be paid, and he believed it was exceedingly problematical whether they would be able to redeem the promise ! If the Council parted with the provir.ee what did they do 1 strengthen the lands of the General Government, and he was not at

all prepared to say that he favored that idea ; in fact, after what he had heard lately, he did not think it at all desirable to do so. The transactions with regard to the native lands, which had been brought before the Council, were not in any way reassuring, and when the Premier stood up and defended those transactions, and dignified them with the word “policy," and said Government were frequently obliged, in order to carry out that “policy,” to make use of shaky instruments, they had no right to come there to ask for more power. But it was not the manner in which they had dealt with (ho native lands alone which made him (Mr Johnston) very distrustful of the Go vernraent. He did not like the manner in which the affairs of New Zealand generally were being condncted ; with the manner in which the gentleman now in England, and who had once been Colonial Treasurer, had acted with respect to the negotiation of the four million loan. The time for the final debate had not yet come, but he could not help saying that to the best of his know ledge and belief the negotiations had been carried through in such a manner as to bring discredit on the colony. Discredit was a strong word, but he thought, it was justifiably used, when they considered that, notwithstanding that the immense influence of the house of Rothschild had been brought to bear, notwithstanding that even distinguished gentlemen who were members of that house being on the committee of the London Stock Exchange that committee had refused to allow the loan to be quoted, had denied the bonds a place in the list of securities. Then further, a member of the Parliament of Great Britain had thought it necessary to move that the negotiations connected with the raising of the New Zealand four million loan should be referred to a committee then sitting on some doubtful foreign loans. What did it mean ? It meant that the negotiations for the loan had been of such a nature that a civil or criminal enquiry into the matter was deemed to be necessary. That was the meaning of the reference to that committee. These were not pleasant things to say. but nevertheless they were true,; and if the Premier could in any shape remove suspicions, he should be glad to hear him do so. He trusted that he was not speaking to no purpose, and that Council would respect itself, and as the conservative body in New Zealand defend the rights of the ballot box, and lay aside all feelings against provincialism in order that the electors might have an oportunity of saying what they thought upon the matter. There was no reason whatever to distrust provincialism for a few months longer. Within the past, year 50,000 or 00,000 immigrants had been imported, and had now been long enough in the country to express an opinion, and were entitled to a vote. Perhaps when invited to come out Government agents had told them of the benefits of provincialism. He had no doubt it was so, for he had in his mind’s eye three gentlemen in England, who when they were in the colony were staunch provincialists. Doubtless they had dilated upon the benefits of the system—told the people how easily they might step into the legislature of the colony, and how they or their children might rise to the highest point. This being so, he claimed for these people the right to say whether they approved of the change. He hoped his words would have some effect, so that the Council would not agree to this Bill till the people had been consulted. The debate was then adjourned till next day. Wednesday, October 6, The Speaker took the chair at the usual hour. ABOLITION BILL. After some preliminary business, the Council again proceeded with the Abolition of the Provinces Bill. Hon G. Buckley, as a member of a Provincial Council for many years past, desired to say a few words on this subject. For years past he had admitted that some altera, tion in the present system was required. A few years ago he had moved and carried in the Canterbury Council a resolution to be forwarded to the General Government, enclosing a proposition for such an alteration and modification of existing institutions as should lead to their being much more in harmony with the General Government ol the country. Had this proposal been carried out, he had no doubt whatever that there would have been no necessity for the Bill now before the House. There seemed to be a feeling that this Bill had been sent up to the Council merely as a matter of form, and their consent would be merely a matter of form He disagreed with that feeling, and thought the Council should deal with the details and fully discuss them. None could say they were unimportant, and he must admit that it was the consideration of details which mainly influenced him in opposing the measure, He was not at all satisfied with the way in which the large provinces of Otago and Canterbury were to be treated, and although it was true they were told the matter was to come before them the next session, that might not be the case, and it was the duty of the Council to consider the proposal at once. He for one was not prepared to see provincial institutions swept away until something more satisfactory than the Bill was put before him. Borne of the clauses he should refer to particularly. Clause 10 he could not approve of. It provided for the carrying on of education; but he wished to point out that so soon as the Act came into operation the machinery for carrying on education in Otago and Canterbury would cease. In the former province members of the Executive were also members of the Education Board, aud if the Provincial Executives ceased to have existence, so must the Education Boards. |ln Canterbury there was no Board of Education, and here again, unless special Bills were introduced to carry on the work of education, the whole scheme in these two provinces would fall to the ground so soon as the Act came into operation. He then referred to the 14th clause relating to flues on scab in sheep, and said such a provision would be quite out of place in Canterbury. In speaking on clause 16 he said the House of Representatives had made a great mistake in eliminating the provision for immigration out o f the laud revenue, as every one knew for some time past. Immigration had been charged on loan since 1870, before which time the provinces had borne the charge. But the consolidated revenue would be called upon to meet this expenditure, which in the interest of the country could not cease, They must have a continual small stream of immigration. The consolidated revenue could not have the charge on it. it had already too much upon it. Then where was the money to come from? The land revenue could most

properly be called upon to defray (he cost and a great mistake had therefore been committed. Clause 17, providing for the issue of Treasury Bills, was the most important and most vicious in principle of the clauses in the Bill, He believed the £IOO,OOO worth would be issued, but that would be all, for the money would never be repaid. The who’e land revenue of the colony, would suffer in consequence, and the compact of 1856 would be broken by making the whole land fund of the provinces contribute towards the general revenue of the colony. | Hear.] He dwelt upon clauses 19 and 20, contending they were misplaced, and their positions in the Rill should be reversed ; and as for tlie promised sub-idies, he said they were a sham, and were bribes to the centres of population. The consolidated revenue would not be able to bear such a burden for any length of time, at any rate not more than a year. The claims now on the consolidated fund were quite as numerous as it could bear, seeing that in a year or two he believed there would be a strong cry, and a cry which the Government and Parliament could not withstand, for a considerable reduction in the Customs duties. He believed there should be a system of classification of these local bodies. There should be two classes, first those cities and towns long established, and, secondly, those only established a short time, or outlying districts, otherwise the populated towns, as had been seen in Victoria for example, would receive all the money, leaving new towns and out lying districts to starve. Then again with reference to preventing Provincial Councils from reassembling, he believed a great mistake had been committed, for there was a great deal of business which had already accumulated waiting to be settled by the Councils, and if it were not settled he did not know what the result would be. As an instance, he might say, that he knew a number of Road Diversion Bills had been prepared* for the General Government could not interfere, and if the Provincial Councils did not, there would bo confusion till the next session of the Assembly. Altogether, he was much dissatisfied with what had taken place, for the Government had shown themselves to be incapable of bringing in a really proper measure to be considered by the Legislature and the people, and therefore he was not able to vote for the Bill at any stage. Hon Mr Lahman said the part of the colony from which he came—Westland would hail the Bill as the best thing which could possibly befal it. Whatever might have been the cause, provincial institutions are now effete, and the country cried out for a simplification of Government. As for the examples of Belgium and Switzerland, quoted by the Hon Mr Johnston, the Council had only seen the bright side of the picture. If they looked behind the scenes, they would find that the systems did not work well, particularly in Switzerland, where not only had taxation been heavy, but bloodshed had resulted. He was satisfied there was nothing like the English constitution, and it was to this they should refer for a guide without going to countries with which they had nothing in common. The people of New Zealand were tired of small provinces, and looked to the colony for that justice which had hitherto been denied them. In his opinion there was not the slightest fear that any of the ills which in the other House had been prophesied would result from the Bill, and he firmly believed the Government would be able to redeem all their financial promises. The Hon Mr Scotland deprecated the course being taken by an expiring Parliament, and expressed himself favorable to the retention of Provincial Governments, giving them increased power, and decreasing the powers of the General Government. The promises of the Government never could be fulfilled, but the result would be a breach of the compact of 1856 ; or, in other words, wholesale spoliation of certain provinces. Hon Dr Pollen, in replying, said he had he had not, when proposing the second reading, thought it well to give details believing thatmembers had followed the long discussion in another place, and the debate had showed him that his presumption was well founded. He defended the Bill against Mr Chamberlain’s remarks by saying that as he had brought no arguments forward to support his assertions, he (the Premier) should merely say those assertions were incorrect. It had been said that the Government could not carry out its financial, proposals ; but he would remind the House that the Colonial Treasurer had gone fully into the matter before making the promises, and he had proved by figures in the other House that the promises could be redeemed. He thought, therefore, that the Treasurer’s calculations were of more ,value than private members’ assertions. As for the statement that the Bill was brought forward for an electioneer ing purpose, he denied it, and said even had they done so, the Government would not achieve their object, for the Bill went forth as embodying the opinions of the majority of the legislators, aud not as the Bill of a particular Government. He combatted the opposition of the Iron Mr Menzies on the ground that the House had not been told what was to succeed, or what was to be substituted] for provincialism, by answering that there was to be no substitute, because none was necessary. These institutions had been created to meet certain circumstances. The circumstances had passed away, and the institutions were no longer a necessity. Everything was changed, and the want for Provincial Governments no longer existed, and they might be properly swept away. Those institutions for local self-government which were to succeed the Councils had not been settled, but those which were to immediately succeed them were Road Boards. What the future was to be must be determined in the future, but Road Boards would, in the opinion of the Government, well answer the purpose. These useful institutions had no chance in the past. Their growth had been checked, aud real self-government thus checked, but under the new system they would be allowed to expand. They would have the control ot revenue and be of increased usefulness. However, the people were in favor of a change. Provincialism had practically ceased, and the form future local self-government should take must be according to the wishes of the people. At the coming election they would express their pleasure, and return representatives who would mould the Local Government Bill according to their views. The Government had indicated what they thought best, but it would be for the people and their representatives to decide. The operation of the Abolition Bill would be to centralise legislative power, and to centralise and strengthen as much as]possible executive administration. He then referred to the

objection that there had been no expression of opinion in favor of the Bill, and claimed that inasmuch a- the provincial party had used ivcy «ff • t to render the change unpopular, and vet had failed to elicit any expression of opinion against abolition, therefore the people tacitly approved of the course the Government was pursuing. In combating the points of Mr Johnston’s speech, the Premier refi.rred to the compdete answer given by Mr Lab man to that portion of the Iron member’s remarks respecting Belgium and Switzerland, and then proceeded to object to the remarks of Mr Johnston regarding the four million loan. He took exception to the word “discreditable,” because the use of it was not justified by the facts of the case. The whole of the transactions with reference to the loan had been before the public, before the representatives of the people, and before that House, and the unanimous verdict was that the negotiations between the late Premier and Treasurer and Messrs Rothschild were properly and satisfactorily conducted. The Grown agents and Agent-General of the colony had been consulted by the late Premier and Treasurer, and the general verdict was that for a loan of such magnitude, considering the circumstances under which it had been brought forward, the result had been most satisfactory. Instead of being termed “discreditable,” it should have been characterised as “eminently successful” for the colony, and eminently creditable to those who had negociated it. He was at a loss *o understand in what sense the word “discreditable” could be applied. What was the evidence of its discreditableness 9 First, it had been refused a quotation upon the Stock Exchange, and next that it had been referred to a committee of the House of Gommo’.s for enquiry in common with other foreign loans. With regard to the first proof, he might say that the debentures had not been refused a quotation, but merely the scrip before the debentures were issued, and this refusal had nothing to do with the Government or the agents of the Government, but because it wasalleged there had been irregularities on the part of the Rothschild firm. These irregularities consisted, as was imputed, that before tenders were called for, half the loan bad been privately placed by Messrs Rothschild, The firm explained that in doing that, they were but following a usual course. The loan was then admitted in the Stock Exchange. The fact was, there had been an attempt on the part of certain persons to depreciate the loan. The money was raised as it usually was. Other arrangements than usual had been made, and human nature on one side of the world being the same as human nature on the other side, those who were disappointed at having what they believed to be vested interests interfered with, were rather annoyed, and acted as persons when annoy* d generally did. With regard to the reference to a committee of the House of Commons, that was a matter of no moment, till an unfavourable report was presented. He trusted the explanation given would be satisfactory to every one. In answer to the objections of Mr Buckley he said they could better be discussed in committee, but he would remind the hon gentleman that arrangements were to be made to prevent inconvenience arising from the non-assembly of the Councils. A division was then taken with the following result:— Ayes 23—Hons Messrs Baillce, Brett, Edwards, Gray, Hart, Holmes, Johnston, G. K. Kenny, Kohcre, Lahman, Mantell, Menzies, Miller, Ngtata, Nurse, Peter, Pollen, Richmond, Robinson, Stokes, Waterhouse, Whitmore, Wigley. Noes 4—Hons Messrs Chamberlain, Johnson, J. Russell, and Scotland.