GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume IV, Issue 372, 21 August 1875, Page 2

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. [By Electric Telegraph.] (From a correspondent of the Press?) Thursday, August 19. abolition debate. Mr Curtis, during the ten years he had held a seat in the House, had been always of opinion that Provincial Councils and Governments should be looked upon as temporary. He had always advocated that those institutions should be abolished so soon as there were increased settlement and improved communication. Last session it was proposed to deal with one portion of the colony only, to establish two constitutions in this small colony, and he was not prepared to support that proposal, and spoke and voted against it; but when the Government brought down a Bill saying that during the year, they had considered the matter and saw that it would be advantageous that abolition should be extended over the colony, and brought down a measure which appeared to him to him to meet the wantb of the country, he felt bound to give it his support, One great objection to the resolution of last session, in addition to what he had already referred to, was that it contained no indication of what were to be the institutions with which it was nroposed to carry on the business of the country, and no intimation of the character ■)f. the finance by which it was proposed to maintain Uio:;e cube'ituted institutions. The p; esse ut Bill contained distinct appropriations, which he considered most unfair to all intsceats parts cl the colony, It was perfectly true it did not abolish anything viaii Superiniendentr. ar.d Provincial Oonaeila, E.nd soiar his satisfaction was of a ner.'"?,t'.vc :iiarac;ter, but his mind waa greatly relieved v.'hen ne found that it was not intended that Roai Boards and municipalities should be wholly substituted for Provincial (louttJiis, Road Boards were -.-. ry useful for the purposes for which they were o< iginalU intended, but he uid not look upon them as capable of carrying out the functions now discharged by the Provincial Governments, fto soon as he niK.de up his iqind to support the Bill through all itti stages, ho made known his determination to hose gentlemen with whom he acted last session. Before going into the character of ch<3 Bill, he would say a few words about the legal doubts ruiflnr! as to the powar of the Assembly to pass the Bill. He expreasetl regret that cho Government had not acted upon (he suggestion .of the Attorney (reneral, at all events, to obtain a coniiimatio : of hit opinion from t,ne legal authorities a.r borne. A? the 5 rtorney C4e e.-=il :'fr,a eloselj? eon n ■•••: ' i'-b '*■'•- ' *c.-"----s,»"-1 i'.c, it was natural iliu', hi.. '..,.■■:. '.■-. ■■■<.(: : ; ;; m to fche.'u. tie u-.-'li-r i...»•.. i fritirn „;>-.<> Jyi i nkijer or Justice thai th U'A"_Tnau ut wouln as* j the, Imperial Goiroruiutjot tu pass an Abe

confirming the Act of the colony. If that was the case the House might proceed at once with ihe consideration of the Bill. He reminded the member for Selwyn, in reference to his assertion, that the abolition of the provinces meant a breach of the com pact of 1856, that the ground was cut from under his own feet by his own argument, that the Assembly could do one 'lay and undo next. He supported the Bill from very different reasons to those alleged by the previous speakers. In his opinion theevils of provincial institutions were—firstly, the legislative powers they exercised ; secondly, their influence upon the finances of the colony. He supported the abolition of provincial institutions because he believed a fiimplo code of laws could be adopted to the wants of the colony, instead of the mass of legislation produced by ten legislatures. The member for Avon said that the legislation of the provinces had practically ceased for a long time past. It was true that the active legislative powers of the provinces had been greatly diminished, but still they had the power to legislate on many important subjects. They still had absolute power to deal with that very large question of education, with the establishment of Road Boards, with fencing, sheep, scab,, and more than all had the practical and legal power for the disposal of the waste lands of the Crown. The provincial boundaries were rightly retained by the Bill, for the mass of provincial legislation existing could not be swept away at one blow. It would be many sessions before all the subjects upon which the provinces legislated could be satisfactorily dealt with by the Assembly. He did not support the Bill on account of the administration of local affairs by the colony being improved. That was not his belief. There was nothing in the Bill upon which he could depend for better local administration in the future, than already provided by the Provincial Councils. In 1872, he moved a resolution to the effect that it was desirable that the ser-' vices of the provincial organisation should be utilised in carrying out the Immigration and Public Works policy. That resolution was received with little favor by the Government, and with less by the House, and was ultimately withdrawn. Had it been done in reference to immigration, he was inclined to believe, if that plan had been adopted—he did not mean that the control should be handed over altogether—it would have resulted in a large saving of money and a much better supervision of the works. The abolition of the provinces would also possess a great advantage by simplifying the defence of the colony. That could be easily seen by the fact that the last financial statement was more easily understood than any that had gone before it, for the reason that it was uot encumbered by provincial finance, having treated of the affairs of the colouy as a whole. The Bill did not propose to be advantageous to the Road Boards and Municipalities, except in the older, more settled, and more wealthy districts. However, he hoped to see this mended in committee. Abolition would not lessen the cost of administration. On the contrary, the necessarily prolonged sittings of Parliament would involve the payment to members at a largely increased cost. He did not approve of the localisation of the land fund, which meant that the districts least needing it should have the most money to spend. In that respect the Timaru and Gladstone Act had proved an entire failure. It should be repealed, and the district put on a level with the rest of the colony. He approved of the maintenance of the provincial districts, which would enable each district to be charged with its fair share of the immigration and public works loan. Tnese were the grounds on which he supported tha Bill, and which would cause him to support its becoming law this session. He was astonished to find that one small favoured district should be made an exception from the measure, and he hoped the Government would reconsider the matter. The Timaru aud Gladstone Act should be repealed, aud the district thrown upon the same footing as the rest of the colony. Referring to the request of the Opposition that the matter should be referred for the decision of a general election, he remarked that abolition was by no a new subject. Public opinion had been attracted to it during the last twelve or fifteen years, and during the last twelve mouths it was prominently before the public mind. Meeting after meeting had decided m favour of abolition. [Opposition il Noes."] He repeated his assertion, though he admitted opinion was divided as to whether abolition should take place immediately. The position of the Opposition was like the song—- " Who are the people, those who cheer you ; Who are the law, those who cheer you." He pointed out that the Opposition meant delay which, with a new Parliament, might result in postponing the matter for years. He should support the Bill in all stages, because it was jnst and fair in the interests of all parts of the colony, because it would simplify legislation aud finance, and improve the credit of the colony, because he believed it would promote and secure a united colony; and lastly, because he believed firmly that a large majority of the people wished that the Bill should be passed. ( Cheers.] At the conclusion of Mr Stafford's speech, and when the cheering had subsided, there were loud cries of " Question" and " Divide." After a space the Speaker said if no gentleman was prepared to. address the House, he would call on the Treasurer to reply. Mr Buuuy looked about him with much apparent anxiety, jumped suddenly into his place and cried "Sir;" but sat down on finding Mr White had risen. Mr White opposed the Bill at some length, criticising the various parts of the preceding speech. With the mass of the people, he was in favor of a change in the mode of Government, but so far as the preseut proposals were concerned, they were better than that which they contemplated superseding. He would vote against the second reading, and would also be found voting in the direction which would remit the question to the constituencies. Mr Mervyn moved the adjournment of the debate, which was carried. Friday, August 20. reserves. Mr Wales, in asking a question without notice, remarked he had seen it stated in one of the Metropolitan journals that the reserves now vested in the Superintendents of Provinces would on the abolition of the Provinces be referred to the Assembly, to ue dealt with as the Assembly might seem lit. He had to ask whether, in the event of 'h<: Abolition Bill being passed, it would be jOusible for the Governor, in whom the reserves would be vested, to divert them to

purposes other than that for which they were made, and for which they were now held. The Treasurer said the Government wt;re advised that the reserves were absolutely secured in the way hon gentlemen wanted. In the financial statement he stated that the various educational reserves would, after abolition, remain subject to their present trust, aud similar reserves would be made in districts where there were now none. If the clause in the Abolition Bill did not secure the reserves for their present purposes, they would be prepared to introduce or accept an amendment that should absolutely secure them for the purposes intended. That was the full intention of the Government from the first. CLERICAL ASSISTANCE. On a complaint by Mr REEVES of want of clerical assistance to committees, the discussion took an interesting turn. A complaint had been made by Mr Reeves that the printing trade was paralysed by the Government entering into competition with private enterprise by offering high wages and bonuses for compositors to come to Wellington to the session. He advised the Government to introduce a number of compositors, whom he was sure would find employment in different parts of the colony after the session was over. Messrs Luckie and Creighton followed suit. Mr O'Conor strongly objected, saying that while artisans received 16s to 20s a day, printers only barely made enough to support their families. He had often seen printers tramping over the colony in search [of employment. Mr Creighton denied this. Hon Major Atkinson said if the newspaper proprietors would requisition the Government to import compositors, and could show that the men would be employed on landing, they would instruct the Agent-Gene-ral to send out men. Mr Creighton said such representations had been made to the Government. Mr O'Conor hoped the Government would do nothing of the kind until the proprietors guaranteed the men employment on lauding. Mr Buckland suggested that if employment was given to boys, a remedy might be effected. Mr Creighton answered, if boys were put into the offices, the compositors would shut up the establishments. The subject then dropped. [Per Press Agency.] abolition debate. The Abolitiou debate was resumed by Mr Mervyn. who said he was forcibly struck by the unanimity shown by the objectors to the Bill. Their great objection seemed to be that the time was inopportune, and that the people were taken by surprise, but there was no foundation for these objections, because the questiou had for the last twelve months occupied the attention of the people of Otago. Even the Superintendent of that province had given his opinion on the question. He could also inform the House that, when he was elected, it was distinctly upon the question of abolition. Very much needless stress had been laid upon the fact that this Bill invaded the people's rights, but the fact was studiously ignored that this measure was merely a makeshift, and was only intended to pave the way for something more suitable. The hon gentleman pro* ceeded to show that if provincialists had desired to improve their local government they did not show it by their opinion towards the BiH introduced in 1867 by Mr Stafford to grant local government, and although in the following year his Road Board Bill was passed by a majority of six or seven, it dropped at that, solely through the influence of the provincialists; His experience of provincial management had not created any sympathy with them. He had seen his district neglected systematically by the Provincial Government of Otago, while the revenue contributed by the out-districts was lavished within thirty miles of Danedin. Another great cause of complaint he had against provincialism was the way in which the waste lands were administered. The land laws were made with a view to prevent their occupation by bona fide settlers, and to allow the original leaseholders about twentyeight years to purchase if not the whole of their runs at least the choicest portions of them. Mr Macandrew—Who made those laws ? Mr Mervyn—They were made by this House, but only upon the strong recommendations of the different Provincial Councils, for his remarks applied to Nelson, Canterbury, and Marlborough, as well as to Otago. If for no other reason than the alteration which the Abolition Bill would effect in this direction, he welcomed the Bill. He was quite satisfied with the provisions for local government, made by the Bill, and he could dot understand why people should want the Bill relegated to another session. Another great reason which induced him to support the Bill was that education would be attended to then if the money came from the land funds or any other fund. He would vote for second reading of Bill. . ( Mr O'Conor said when he first came to that House he did.so as an abolitionist. He did so because the large out districts were continually neglected. He presented a petition on the subject, but in consequence of combination among the Superintendents the grievance was looked coldly upon. While he deemed it an honor to be a Provincial Councillor, he maintained that it never was intended that Superintendents of provinces should be more than chairmen of municipalities. Had they been confined to that, it would have been better for the colony, and it was the fault of the Assembly that they had not been so confined. The House could always have done it, aud could do it now. His chief reason for supporting this Bill was that he expected true local government from it. Another great reason for his supporting the Bill was its tendency to give them a common pursd. They had a common creditor, a common interest, and they should have a common revenue and a common purse. He cared nothing about this compact or that compact. It was iniquitous that one portion of the colony should be rolling in wealtn, defraying provincial charges out of the land funds, while other parts of the colony were in very great need. Charges of maladministration had been made against the Provincial Councils, but these were charges which might and would be brought against any Government that occupied the Government benches of that House. While he was desirous of seeing provincialism abolished, he did not approve of the way in which they sought to bring it about. There were various ways in which ihey could have deprived Provincial Governments of their ; ower of legislation, and have given more to out-disiricts. This Bill asked them to hand over all their legislation foe

twelve months, upon the promise that at the end of that time they would get a s.ys tern of local Government. Why give them promises only ; why not give them in the Bill all that was wanted. How would it be under the Government proposals, suppose he wanted a bridge and was a Government supporter. The Government, of course, would support him, or he could not support them. Extend this principle and they at once had Government by party. The strongest would get the best of it. One thing he could compliment the Government upon was the way they dealt with the gold mining districts. He thought it would be an improvement to abolish the gold duty altogether. He disapproved of how the land fund was proposed to be dealt with. He was strongly opposed to giving such large sum-; of money to large centres of population. There were a great many parts of the colony that had no Road Boards, and had to depend upon Provincial Governments alone, and this measure made no provision for them. Another feature he strongly objected to. He hoped the Timaru and Gladstone district would be placed in the same position as the other parts of the colony. He hoped if the Government found it necessary in the transition stage that the services of people to supervise local affairs were requisite, they should place these appointments in the hands of the people. They had no right to be deprived of that right. It was altogether improper that any Government on the eve of a general election should have such an enormous amount of patronage in their hands. With all the objections he had raised to the Bill, he thought that on the whole it was in the direction of giving the people more and better local government than they had now. ■ The Government admitted the Bill had imperfections, and they invited assistance and suggestions to improve the Bill, and he hoped members would act upon the invitation. He could not but think that those hon gentlemen who said that after the second reading of the Bill they would wash their hands of it altogether, would act improperly to the country. Mr BASSTIAN referred to the feelings on abolition in the part of the country he came from. He said he never heard a single word opposed to abolition except from one person, and he was a member of the Provincial Executive. It seemed extraordinary to him that the country could not be governed without little Goverments. He did not apprehend any great damage or dislocation of the machinery of Government by the present change. When Southland, after governiag herself as a a separate province, became once more joined to Otago, no one could detect any difference in the way affairs were conducted. As far as the result were concerned, no one could tell that any change had taken place. Nor in this change did he anticipate any difficulty in the transition of provincialism. He would vote for the measure. The House adjourned till 7.80, when Mr Fitzherbert began to address the House. Mr MACANDREW moves the adjournment of the debate. An understanding has been come to take the division on Thursday.