GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume IV, Issue 361, 9 August 1875, Page 3

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Friday, August 7. [From the Nero Zealand Times.'] THE ABOLITION BILL. At 7.30 p.m. the House was crowded. The Hon Major Atkinson rose and said— In asking the House to read this important Bill a second time, I feel a sense of deep responsibility. I propose to divide my subject into three parts—First, to consider can we lawfully do that which? by this Bill we propose to do? (Hear, hear,] Second, what is it exactly that we propose to do ? Thirdly, what are our reasons for doiDg it! Sir, there can be no doubt whatever in the' minds of any hon members that the Government, if they thought fit, instead of relying upon the Act of 1868, might have brought down a Bill simply repealing the second aection of the original Constitution Act, which would just as effectually do that which w proposed to be done in the Bill now before the House. Sir, I am sure none of my hon friends on the opposite side of the House will dispute that; and I trust, therefore, that fact will go a long way in enabling any of those gentlemen whose tender consciences cause them to imagine that an unlawful act is about to be committed, to rid themselves of all doubts on the subject. Sir, 1 will say, to satisfy those hon gentlemen, that if nothing else will set their minds at rest, the Government will be quite piepared to introduce a clause into the Bill to repeal 4he second section of the Constitution Act, and so remove every scintilla of doubt that exist in their minds upon the subject of the power of the Government. [An hon ■member—l don't know about that.] But, t sir, the Goveinment, if they had that intension themselves originally, have thought better of it. We are satisfied that there is mo question of technicality, or question of law, in the matter. We are satisfied, and common sense will lead every member who ueads carefully the Act of 1868 to be isatisfied that there is power given the (Government in that Act to abolish the whole of the provinces. [Cheers.] I ask hon gentlemen to put this case to themselves: Suppose that instead of proposing to abolish the whole of the provinces, we proposed this year to abolish the provinces in the North Island merely, would not that have been according to law 7 Sir, I say it would have been. Supposing that next year we proved to abolish all the provinces in the 5 l *-h. Island, wouldnot that have been accordBoui. , wJ I say it would. Then, sir, if ing to n tbe p rOT j nC es one by one, does we can abv. ft ma ttg r 0 f course, as a logilt not follow . , t | f we can a boliah them secal sequence, thu abolish them collecparately, we can i* clear. This tively. This, sir. is t as those matter is above such tec*. '^j J op r 8 t w*e rely which have been raised. [\ wConstituupon the sacred principle in „ p £ j ne tion, that the Imperial Governme. noon the Imperial Parliament have conferred .. ,^ £ of this country the pow „ alter and model its Constitution in any v> % it may think fit, to suit the requirements o* the people and the country. [Cheers.] And this is what the Government propose to do —and we feel the responsibility of our deed—to model the Constitution according to the requirements of the country. [Hear, hear.] In proof that the Imperial Parliament intended to give that power, I ask hon gentlemen to look at the way in which the Imperial Parliament acted at the time we sent home the Bill of 1868, if they have any doubt about the matter. Sir, we had a graphic description the other night | of the way in which this Bill of was I hurried through the Imperial Parliament —£nd it was a very graphic description indeed—bn.t, I think the only one argument to be deduced from the treatment of that Bill, is an argument which cuts the whole of the ground fror fl under the feet of the hon gentleman Opposite, who used it as an argument to suit his own purpose. It is from the way in which the Bill was passed through the Imperial Parliament. Let us look at the matter. We wanted to constitute new provinces. There were a number of gentlemen who told us we could not do it—gentlemen who told us the Imperial Parliament would not permit it—it was unlawful, and so forth. We went to the Imperial Parliament, and what did it do ? At once it removed all difficulties and doubts, if difficulties and doubts ever existed. Is this an argument in the hon gentleman's favor ? Again, sir, we determined to separate the Westland province from the province of Canterbury. We had the croakers againut us: " You cannot do this, you have no power ; it is an infringement of the people's rights ;" and so forth. But, sir we did it; and what

I was the result ? The British Government and British Parliament agreed to it, they passed a Bill and sent it out. They did not stop to charge us with a breach of the Constitution —they did not send out to say what we might do, or what we might not do. They sent out a Bill, and said, " Is this what you want?" It did not quite suit us, so we prepared a Bill which did, and sent it back, and the British Government instantly passed it without a single alteration. Therefore, in this case, we have not the slightest doubt that we have power to abolish the provinces under the Constitution. By the Constitution we hold, we are redponsible for the good government of the people and the welfare of the colon/; and how can anyone say that we shall not do this or that when we feel—and ithe people give us unmistakeable proof that they feel it too—that it is desirable that the course we propose to pursue should be pursued. [Cheers.] I say, sir, there is no weight in the argument of the hon gentleman on the opposite side. There is another point This House has appointed certain legal officers to advise the Government on questions of Jaw, and by whose advice the Government, if not bound to act may at any rate always feel justified in acting; and all these officers have advised us that we have the legal power to do that which we now propose to do. Therefore we are fully justified—having the support of this House and this country, and possessing the legal power—in doing what we propose to do. [Cheers.] For my own part, I have not the least doubt about the rightfulness of the opinions given us by the law officers of the Crown. I have not the least question that these opinions will be amply borne out by the opinions of higher authorities, if it be necessary to apply to them. This division of the question is free from all technicalities, for there can be no doubt that whatever this assembly thinks to be right and good for the country can be done under our Constitution. [Cheers.] And, now, sir, I come to the next division of my subject, and I propose to consider what it is exactly that we propose to do. Well, I shall not occupy the time of hon members at any length on this part of the question, because the Bill brought forward by the Government is so clear that it speaks for itself, and is couched in such decisive language that it needs no explanation—too decisive for my hon friends on the other side, I fear. [Mr Bunny—Hear, hear.] I say it speaks for itself so decisively that there will be no misapprehension as to its meaning. It is this, that it means real local government. [Cheers from centralists, and ironical laughter from provincialists.] There is an old proverb which says, " Let those laugh that lose, for they who win are sure to laugh," which will give an excuse for the humor of hon friends opposite. [Mr .Bunny, sarcastically—Hear, hear.] I may say, sir, the Bill speaks for itself, therefore I shall not trouble the House with any lengthy remarks; but I desire to point out one or two matters connected with it. In the first place, there is the interpretation clause, and this I may say does not include the designation of the whole of the governing bodies which are to be established. The Government was not clear as to what title to give these governing bodies, whether they should be called Town Councils or Road Boards. We had doubts as to what would be proper organisations for some districts, and as it was impossible for us to appeal to these districts before the Bill was made public we shall be willing to consult with these districts on the subject, and will be prepared to make any alterations which the hon members who represent these districts may desire. Clause 6, as hon members will observe, has the object of leaving in force the whole of the original laws of the provinces. As I said on a former occasion, the Government do not desire to meddle with anything until they can amend; therefore, we consider it is far better to leave in force the present provincial laws, unsatisfactory as they are [Mr Bunny, ironically—Hear, hear.] —until we have time to consider how the requirements of the districts will be met by the various Acts, which must necessarily be made general. I don't desire to trouble hon members with any lengthened remarks on this subject, but it will be plain to hon members that some districts will be differently 'affected by the application of the general laws, and it will also be plain to hon members that there are some of our Acts which will require amendment in immaterial particulars. The Government will therefore, during the recess, give these questions serious consideration, and will introduce such measures in the next session as they hope will meet the requirements of the country in this respect. Clause 7 I can say little about. Clause 8 gives the Governor power to delegate his authority. We have had considerable doubt as to providing for the exercise of this power, but it was considered advisable to *make some such provision, in order to avoid against any possible hitch in the carrying out the administration of the provinces. Clause 10 is an important clause, and gives to the provinces that for which they have long contended, placing within the hands of the people the control of their rates and taxes, for the purposes of local expenditure. [Mr Bunny—Hear, hear, | We now give these powers to real local bodies. We offer to cities their licenses of U kinds, and to the Road Boards the licenses the "* may Co H ec k Clause 15 deals with the and this is a clause with which most bo n gentlemen have expressed them< selves satisi?ed. Here also we recognise the principle that revenues should be locally expended. Claus'9 16 appropriates the land revenue, and this a!so is framed with the intention of carrying out the same principle which runs through the parts of the Bill previously referred to—that the land revenue shall really be applied for legitimate purposes, that it shall be spent in improving the land from which it is raised, and also to provide for public works. Clause 19 provides for the endowment of Road Boards and must he regarded as a very important provision, I dc;n't know whether the hon geutlemen opposite think these boards ought to be so endowed, but without these endowments it is utterly impossible for them to carry out the objects which they are intended to carry out. The gentlemen opposite seem to doubt the ability of the Government to provide this subsidy, but no doubt the time will arise—that is to say, if it ever will arise, for I doubt if hon members on the opposite side will come to discussthe finances at all. [A laugh] But, sir, I say if it does arise, and we come to discuss the finances, I shall be able to prove, if it be not already proved, all that I stated on a former occasion. But I will take this opportunity of saying that there is no question, in the opinion ot the Government, that all that has been promised and held out can be easily fulfilled. [Eear, hear.] Clause 23 is also of con-

siderable importance. It provides that all the necessary government of the colony shall be carried on, not as here.ofore with uncertainty, but with the certainty that the provision made by the Assembly for the carrying on of the various institutions of the colony will be assured to the people. It provides that gaols, harbors, police, and charitable institutions throughout all the colony shall be maintained by votes from this House. Such, then, sir, are shortly the provisions contained in the Bill, and I think there can be no doubt in the minds of hon members as to what are the intentions of the Government. [Mr Bunny : Hear, hear.J We have been taken to task for the way in which this Bill was introduced, but, sir, I am not aware of any constitutional law which forbids the Crown to relieve its subjects of the onus of performing unpleasant duties. If I was not aware of the assiduous way in which my hon friend the hon member for the Hutt attends to the business of this House, I should have thought he was ignorant of what the Bill actually contains. It does not propose to take anything from the people, but it rather proposes to relieve the people from an incubus. [Mr BUNNY : Hear, hear. | It not only proposes to relieve her Majesty's lieges from a considerable amount of taxation—[Mr Bunny—Hear, hear]—but it also relieves them from much disagreeable bodily service—[hear, hear, and laughter]— for at once it will set free some thirty or forty hard worked public servants —| Mr Bunny— Hear, hear]—and it will also set free a hundred or more gentlemen who are obliged to come up every year to attend the sitting of the Provincial Councils who give their services with considerable pain. Therefore, sir, I think there should be no complaint from any part of this House that the Crown should be permitted to send down such a Bill as that to this House. My hon friend the hon member for the Hutt also complained that we have sent down what should be two Bills—the Abolition Bill and an Appropriation Bill—in one Bill. I have no doubt at all that had the hon gentleman had to bring down this Bill, it would have been brought down as he suggests; and I can only say in our excuse that we brought to bear upon this subject such slight intelligence and knowledge of public affairs as we possess— I Mr Bunny: Hear, hear | —and if the result is not satisfactory to my hon friend, I trust that he will put it down to our inexperience. [Opposition members: Hear hear; Government supporters, laughter.] But if instead of being magnanimous, my hon fiiend still refuses to pardon us, we must submit with the best grace we can, and be judged by the result. And this brings me to the third head of my address—What are the reasons for taking the course we propose 7 [Mr Bunny: Hear, hear.] Sir, I need hardly remind hon members that during the last session of Parliament it was determined that a Bill should be brought down to abolish the provinces in the North Island this year; but the more the Government considered the subject, and the more they became acquainted with the feelings of the people—[Hear, hear]—the more clear it became to them that nothing but a complete measure would satisfy the country. [Cheers.] Now, sir, what are the reasons that have induced the Government to bring down this Bill, and what has induced the people to so heartily support it ? [Cheers.] I will answer that question in the first place by asking my hon friends opposite why it has become a public question ? I should like to ask them what useful purposes in the State are served by the Provincial Governments. [Mr Bunny—Hear, hear.] I should like to ask them what functions these provincial Governments now perform which could not be as well performed, I say better performed, by the General Government and Road Boards. \An hon member—" Road Boards."] [Mr Bunny—Hear, hear.] I say sir, there are none. When the provinces were first instituted, what might have been the original intention of their founders is not clear, but it is certain they were capable of performing some of the leading duties of a supreme power in a new country, such as carrying out immigration, public works, and so forth; but in time they gradually became incapable of performing these duties. Immigration and public works ceased, and general stagnation prevailed. [An hon member — " Why?" Mr Bunny—Hear, hear.] lam not now here to tell you why ; that shall be done on a future occasion—l am now simply stating facts. I say, sir, that immigration ceased and general stagnation prevailed (Mr Bunny : Hear, hear) and in 1870 this House by common consent, I might almost say by acclamation, determined to assume the duties whieh the Provincial Governments ceased to perform. I shall be told no doubt that Canterbury and Otago, and some other provinces, did continue public works. That to a certain extent, no doubt is true. But my answer to that is—that the same could have been more economically and better performed —(Mr Bunny : Hear, hear)—by road boards and the General Government. (An hon member : Byroad boards. Mr Bunny : Hear, hear.) Amongst the works which should have been performed by the Provincial Government, were immigration, the construction of roads, harbors, &c. Now let us see how the Provincial Government did these works. How did they discharge their duties ? Why, in this way—they appointed some one else to do it for them. [Mr Bunny—Hear, hear.] Is education to be carried on—a Board of Education is appointed. [Mr Bunny—Hear, hear.] The rivers to be conserved —a Board of Conservators is appointed. [Mr Bunny—Hear, hear.] Are roads required to be made — Road Boards are appointed. [Mr Bunny— Hear, hear.] Are harbors to be constructed —Harbor Boards are _ nominated. [Mr Bunny—Hear, hear.J Mr McGlashan—Sir, I rise to a point of order. I wish to know if the hon member for the Wairarapa is to be allowed to continue these cheers or ironical cheers to interrupt the Hon the Treasurer? ["Oh, oh;" laughter, and confusion.]

The Hon Major Atkinson—l beg to state that 1 am not at all interrupted by the hon member's interjections. [Hear, hear.] I am rather encouraged by these cheers. [Cheers.J Sir—Are harbors to be made—then Harbor Boards are appointed. Mr BUNNY—" Hear, hear." 1 It is true, I am ready to admit, that in some cases the police are tolerably well managed by the Provincial Government. [Hear, hear; "No, no."] But, sir, if that is true, it is one of the strongest arguments in favor of the measure now proposed. As far as legislative functions are concerned, I think it is agreed on all hands that the time has arriyed when the legislative functions of provincialism should cease. [" No, no," hear, hear.] Sir, I gay it is agreed on all hands that the time has arrived. [Hear, hear ; "No, no."] 1 am determined to have the last word. L Lau g ater> ] * £eel

quite sure that hon members will agree with me that the legislation for the population was quite sufficient without the nine supplementary Parliaments. They only lived to get money from this Assembly. And this brings me to another great argument in favor of the Government policy. It is admitted as a sound law of political economy, that the power which raises taxation should be the spending power, and should be wholly responsible to the people upon whom such taxation is levied. But, sir, is this the case in New Zealand ? [A Voice—" No."] Is it not a fact that large sums of money are spent without the knowledge of this House? And we may inquire into the manner in which that money has been spent. Sir, that money is spent by bodies possessing ample taxation power themselves, a power which they very seldom venture to use. Now, sir, is it desirable that this state of things should longer continue? [A Voice—" Yes. | I say, sir, that the majority of the members of this House have emphatically answered "No." What has been the effect of this system ? The result has been this; that the revenue of the colony, both ordinary and extraordinary, has been disposed of—not according to the requirements of the people, but by gigantic scrambles on the floor of this House and in the lobbies. The process which I have described in rather homely words is known in Parliamentary language as " pressure on the Government." I am not Utopian enough in my ideas to think that by any change of law we shall do away with that system by which one member, with a perhaps laudable, but certainly rather local than general motive, lends his aid to any other member, and receives in return the like aid. But I do say that this Bill would do away with that most dangerous form of organised pressure—that provincial organisation which the member for Taieri so delicately described in the debate of last session, as the centre of sympathy round which certain members gathered to determine what was just for their province. And here, Sir, I will pause a moment to consider what is the reasonable definition of the word justice as understood at these centres of sympathy. In an admirable work on Pig Philosophy, with which no doubt hon members are well acquainted, and which, so far as I know, is the only work of the kind extant, I find the following —"What is justice? Your own share of the general swines' trough, not any portion of my share." "What is my share? As I hold, whatever I can contrive to get without being hanged or sent to the hulks." I am sure that the House will agree that the country can very well dispense with these centres of sympathy, and that it will be much more satisfactorily determined what is just for those districts when these centres have been swept from tho face of New Zealand. This House will then be a real power in those matters, and not a liberal providor, aB it now is, for nine starving mendicants, whom my friend the member for the Hutt used to speak of with such asperity before he joined their ranks. | Hear.] There are other weighty arguments which I shall indicate but not enlarge upon. There can be no doubt that our credit would be increased, that our credit would be materially enhanced, by the passing of this Act, by doing away with complicated divisions, and rendering our finances less perplexing to strangers. There is also no doubt that the administration of the country's affairs would be very considerably improved and cheapened. [Hear.] And last, but not least, it would set free a considerable number of able and zealous men—[hear] —who are now bound by the provincial tether, and who could then come to this House untrammelled. There is one point more, sir, I have still to consider. lam told that by passing this Act we shall take away the liberties of the people and their representative institutions. Sir, I cannot pretend to follow the arguments which lead my hon friend the member for Auckland City West to this conclusion. I can hardly believe it was intended seriously. I will content myself with pointing out that every man in New Zealand is fully represented at this time. [" No, no."] Speaking in a broad sense, I say the people of New Zealand are fully represented at the present day, and I hope if it be possible that they will be still more so when Provincial Governments are done away with, And now, sir, it is said that supposing we are right in this matter we ought not to press the measure, but defer it for the decision of the electors. We have already referred it to the electors, and they have decided. [ A Voice : "No fear."] There is no doubt in the mind of the Government as to the course they ought to pursue. This question was brought prominently before the House during last session ; it has been before the country during the recess ; the people were aware that a great change was proposed, and they acquiesced. ["No;" Hear. | It has been before the country ever since the first beginning of political life in New Zealand. It is the one point round which the battles of party have all along raged most fiercely. The party to which I have had the honor to belong has always contended for the vital principle embodied in this Bill ; and here I may remark that it is indeed a matter of deep regret that it has not fallen to the lot of that distinguished member of the House who so long led that party, and who so ably, and now at last successfully contended for its principle—that it has not fallen to the lot of that hon member to introduce this Bill, and so carry to its completion his great work. 1 need hardly say that that principle is the unity, the oneness of the colony ; and it is the only principle consistent with local self-government. Sir, it is idle to talk of this as a new question. I say again that it has been in reality one of the hardest-fought questions, and, in reality, it was practically settled five years ago; and every day, every hour I might almost say, we are receiving stronger and stronger evidence that now at all events the people are awake to tho truth, and thoroughly approve of what we propose. Sir, for these reasons I ask the Bouse to read this Bill a second time. Sir George Grey: I move the adjournment of this debate till Tuesday. Sir Donald McLean: The Government offer no objection, but I would like it to be understood that on Tuesday the debate be resumed until it is finished. It was agreed to adjourn the debate till half-past seven o'clock on Tuesday. ORDERS POSTPONED. The ordinary business was then proceeded with, and a number of orders of the day were postponed. IMMIGRATION INDEMNITY BILL. This Bill, to indemnify the Government for expenditure of certain unappropriated money for immigration purposes, passed its third reading. OTAUO UNIVERSITY BILL. The Otago University Site Exchange Bill was read a third time and passed.

TAURANGA ROAD. Mr W. Kelly moved, and it was agreed to, that there be laid on the table of the House the report of the District Engineer on the cost of constructing the proposed road between Tauranga and Ohinemuri; also, the report of the cost of improving that portion of the main line of road running through the bush between Tauranga and Rotorua. Mr Kelly also moved that petitions relating to native affairs be referred to Select Committee on Native Affairs. The House then adjourned till the usual hour on Tuesday next.