GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume IV, Issue 352, 29 July 1875, Page 2

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. [By Telegraph.] {From a correspondent of the Press.) Wednesday, July 28. The Speaker took the chair at the usual hour. petitions. Several petitions were presented. DANGEROUS REEF. Mr O'Neill called attention to a report in the Post on Monday of Captaiu McLean, of the Otago, having seen dangerous breakers. He made some enquiries and had examined the charts, and on those last issued by the Admiralty the breakers were shown four or five miles north of the point alluded to. Knowing the extremely stormy and dangerous nature of the coast, he thought the Commissioner of Customs should take some steps without delay of ascertaining the exact position of the breakers before any serious shipwreck took place. Mr Reynolds asked Mr O'Neill to see him privately on the subject. reporting. In bringing up the report of the reporting debates committee, which recommended—l, that in future the reports by Hansard should be condensed except on debates of political importance ; and 2, that long extracts should be omitted from the report, Mr Steward said one of two courses must be adopted, either the reports must be extensive, no matter on what subject, in which case it would be necessary to strengthen the Sansard staff at an increased cost of publication; and the committee considering it is unnecessary to increase the cost, and it was desirable the Hansard reports should not be so voluminous as now. If the latter course were not adopted, the committee should be instructed to increase the Hansard staff. Nearly all the speakers, principally Messrs Fitzherbert, Creighton, Shephard, Major Atkinson, and O'Neill, strongly opposed the adoption of the report. Mr Fitzherbert insinuated that the reports were in some instances suppressed. Messrs STEWARD|and Luckie indignantly denied that there was any ground for the assertion. The Speaker also supported the Hansard staff. The report was withdrawn. questions. (1) Mr O'Neill asked "What has been the cause of the delay in the commencement of the Tailway between Auckland and Riverhead ?" (2) " Why have not the following resolutions of last session been carried out: — ' That it is desirable that the Gold Mining Laws should be consolidated and amended; that a Bill should be prepared by the Government as soon as possible after the rising of Parliament, and copies forwarded to the members of gold fields constituencies for circulation in their respective districts; that the Government be requested to introduce such Bill next session." (3 ) Mr Montgomery asked the Commissioner of Customs to state,what steps, if any, have been taken towards the erection of a lighthouse on Banks' Peninsula, at the entrance to Akaroa'harbor Z (4). Mr Sheehan asked under what authority, and for what reasons the cost of the erection of. the Mangere Bridge had been charged against the sum of £60,9C0 set apart for roads and works north of Auckland. (5) Mr Harrison asked the Minister of Justice for what reasons the recent alterations in the sittings of the District Court of WVstland were made, and if he has any objection to lay upon the table copies of the correspondence between himself and Judges Weston and Harvey upon the mhject. (6) Mr Kelly asked what action the Government has taken to earry into effect section 30 of The New Zealand University Act, 1874, with respect to the 10.000 acres of the block of the confiscated lands, set aside in the province of Taranaki, and directed by the said Act to be applied to the promotion of higher education within the province. (7) Mr Williams asked—"lf it is the intention of the Government to rebuild the bridge over the Gararuke river in the Bay of Islands district ?" (8) Mr Richmond asked—" Whether the re-survey of the line of railway from Foxhill to Brunnerton, promised in the Public Works statement of last session, has been completed, and if so, whether he will lay the surveyor's report on the table." Government answered with reference to No. 1, that owing to'the scarcity of labour in the district they were unable to complete the line without incurring what was considered too great an expense. In reply to No 2, they said that they found that owing to the conflicting interests of the different goldfields, it was very difficult to get an Act suitable to ail the requirements of the country. They were still prosecuting enquiries with a view to framing a Bill which would be brought forward next session. In reply to No 3, they said that the Supers intendent of Canterbury had written to the Government intimating that £750 had beert voted by the Canterbury Provincial Council to be placed at the disposal of the General Government, which had undertaken to place a sum on the estimates for the purpose of a lighthouse at Akaroa. In the course of a few days, the Commissioner of Customs would make a statement of what was already done, and what was intended to be done in. connection with lighthouses. In reply to No 4, they said after pressure by the provincial authorities, the General Government had undertaken to construct the bridge, and before it was taken* in hand the Provincial Government was informed that as there was no specific appropriation for it, the money would have to come out of the vote for roads in the North Island. The Provincial Government of the day gave their consent before the contract was accepted. In reply to No 5, they said the changes made were on the recommendation of Judge Weston. In reply to No 6, the Government said that the Act would be brought into operation as soon as some slight difficulties with the natives there were removed. In reply to No 7, they said the bridge would be rebuilt. In reply to No 8, they said the results of the flying survey would be laid on the table in a few days. status of the ministry. Sir Donald McLean having moved for leave of absence during the remainder of the session to Sir Julius Vogel, Mr Sheehan said he did not rise for the purpose of opposing it. No public man in

the colony had better earned repose than he had, but the Government should have been a little more explicit, and taken advantage of the opportunity to explain the precise position in which Sir Julius Vogel stood in regard to the Government. There had been grave doubts with regard to the legal position of the whole Government during the last twelve or eighteen months, but he had heard of few, if any, . persons willing to spend a few thousands in testing the question. He had no doubt there were eminent legal practitioners willing to undertake the work— [Laughter"]— and with some fair show of success he believed. For his own part, he believed the Government, so long as they kept up a bold face, were constitutional; but when he saw them reconstituting themselves for the purpose of meeting Parliament, he had come to the conclusion that the doubts were well grounded. He trusted he would not be thought impertinently curious in enquiring as to the Postmaster General. He should be sorry to say a single word against the Postmaster-General, because he was prepared to admit, as he always had done, that the colony stood greatly indebted to the late Premier, but when he saw him negotiating loans, submarine cables' and postal services, and a variety of other large matters, the House should be satisfied as to hiß legal position and standing, lest hereafter it should be called in question by persons at home disposed to back out of the contracts he had made with them in his capacity as a member of the Government of the colony. Therefore it would give great satisfaction if the Government would explain how a member of that House could become a member of the Government when 16,000 miles away from the colony without being sworn in, or taking the oaths of allegiance which were essential and necessary to the duties of a Minister of the Crown in this colony. Hon Major Atkinson said there was no question as to the legal position of the Government as at present constituted, nor was there of the Government as it existed during the recess, nor was there any doubt that the Postmaster-General was at the present time a member of the Government. The constitutional position was this :—The Governor has power to call anybody he thinks fit to be a member of his Executive Council, but there were grave doubts "whether the person so called had the power of acting until he has been again sworn in. [Opposition cheers.) The question then, arose, how far the oath of allegiance was binding upon those who were in Government at the time the Governor called its members to his Executive. That was what the lawyers might have to test, but there was no doubt that Sir Julius Vogel was now the PostmasterGeneral. So long as Sir James Ferguson was in the colony, Ministers were serving under him and by his authority, and when ih" present Governor arrived they were appointed by him to their old offices. The Premier was of course entirely unknown to law. He is elected by his colleagues. The present Premier was placed in that position when they found that Sir Julius Vogel was not able to return to the House, but not until the Government were satisfied, which was not until the last moment, that he would ■ot be able to come out to resume the office. He believed the House and country desired that he should fill an office in the Government. He said that constitutionally they could not meet the House without a Premier, and therefore the reconstitution took place, with which the House would have to say whether or not they were satisfied. Everything had been done in a perfectly legal and straightforward manner. If the highest legal talent was to be paid for the purpose, the Government was willing to toy the question in a law court. Mr Fitzhbbbert charged the treasurer with replying snappishly to the gmember for Rodney, as an uninformed and ignorant layman. He believed, as soon as the Marquis of Normanby assumed the Government of the colony, Sir Julius Vogel ceased to be a member of the Ministry. He referred to what would be thought in England if Mr Disraeli sent down a Reform Bill, and then hurried oft to Baden Baden when the House then met. He insinuated that Sir Julius Vogel was not so ill as his friends made out. With his own limited experience, he kaew that when persons who were frequently supposed to be suffering under a great infirmity, or the result of maladies of a corporeal or physical character arising from extreme mental overstrain, not unfrequently in such cases—and he was speaking in general terms—remedies of a physical character were applied, selfdenial among others, which went to produce a return to health perfectly marvellous, yet the mental strain remained the same. By the daily telegrams he saw that most important negotiator.s were being carried on, and also angry correspondence, which was the worst possible thing for any man suffering from a particular disease to undertake. He was engaged in important negotiations requiring a cool head and temper to carry to a successful issue, and in the same breath he told his friends he was very ill. This was more than he could understand. A man, the Prime Minister of a country, had brought it, per fas et nefas, to its present state, and when it was in the heat of battle, with fixed bayonets, he was non est inventus. Be had seen men shout and urge on their comrades en avant, and yet shout themselves as they went en arriere. It behoved the man who, as Prime ■ Minister of a country, had driven it into a great constitutional conflict, and exhausted its credit not to be ill enough not to be in his place to see it considered. If Sir Julius Vogel were legally appointed Postmaster-General, or acted as Colonial Treasurer, the Governor might just as well call Mr Russell to the Upper House and appoint him Treasurer. Ducks and drakes should not be made of ther institutions. Whether he was wrong, or Ministers right, it made no difference—whether a man was resident in New Zealand or dispoiting himself in the capitals of Europe—it was high time the House passed a law to prevent a Minister so absenting himself. Mr Stafford could not help reflecting that Mr Fitzherbert foi seven years had had grave doubts about this constitutional question. He could recollect the member for the Hutt going home as Colonial Treasurer in 1867, and in 1868 being appointed Colonial Treasurer by the Governor. During his ahsence in Great Britain in;iß6B, Ministers, who at that time were members of the Executive, appointed by Sir G. Grey when Governor, of which he (Stafford) was head again took the oaths of allegiance before Sir G. Bowen and his then absent colleague, the then Colonial Treasurer, though not in a position to take the oaths, did not consider it unseemly to be appointed Colonial Treasurer ja the reconstituted ministry during his

absence—[Ministerial cheers] —and after his return the then Colonial Treasurer continued to hold office without being sworn in by the Governor after his arrival in the colony. The question became still more delicate when hon members considered that he did not know till this morning that there was a vital alteration in the language used by Her Majesty in reference to appointments by the present Governor to what had been used in the cases of previous premiers. To his mind the alteration was very significant. If there was anything stereotyped it was the form of the commission and royal instructions to governors. Yet here was a cur'ous change. Whereas previous commissions and Royal instructions informed the Governor that he was to appoint an Executive Council in the colony, comprised of such persons as from time to time he thought fit to summon to her councils, the present Governor's instructions declare that the then existing Executive Council shall be her Executive Council. Nothing could be e'earer than the language, and that consideration largely affected the question of Sir J. Vogel's position. The member for Hutt, in asserting that there was no Colonial Treasurer, must have forgotten that the member for Grey and Bell had been legally and formally appointed to that office some time ago by the Governor's commission. He had no doubt upon that Bubject whatever, but there was a [doubt as to whether Sir J. Vogel was a member of the Executive of the colony. The doubt began and ended there, because the Postmaster-General was a statutory officer, and that office did not require to be filled by a member of the Executive Council. But for the express wording of the present Governor's commission, he would have had little hesitation in asserting the opinion that Sir J. Vogel was uot a member of the Executive, simply from the fact that he had not taken the oath of allegiance after the Governor's arrival. The member for Hutt should have recollected his own position in 1868, and what then took place, when no obstruction was offered to leave being given him, though there then was a more compact Opposition than has since existed. That consideration should have caused him to approach the subject with feelings of a less personal character, and with less of an impugning tone, as if some monstrous novelty was being attempted to be imposed upon the House. Sir G. Grey would at once remove a vast deal of misapprehension that had arisen on the subject by calling to the recollection of the House the fact that the powers of the Governor were limited by the confines of these islands, and the powers of the Assembly were similarly limited. Therefore he said that the commission of the Governor only empowered him to appoint Executive Councillors within the colony, and the appointment of certain high offices were conferred upon them solely within the limits of the colony. [Ministers dissented, naming the Postmaster-General as an exception.] The Assembly itself had power to make laws for the appointment of Executive Council. He would go further, and say that regulations sent out by the colonial department from time to time on the subject, though received with proper respect and attention at the time, were in point of fact so much waste paper. It was an authority assumed because the Assembly up to the present time had not done its duty. Let the Assembly cow, before constitutional changes take place, recollect what is the law. The Governor has no power to call anyone to the Executive Council who serves without the limits of colony. The attempt to do so was absolutely illegal, and without force oi effect. It would be a most atrocious example to et, to fill up the Ex cutive Council with persons outside the colony. Sir J. Vogel's appointment was merely as agent of Government, which might render his contracts legal, but he had no status as Postmaster-General without the colony's limits. If the Government wanted to employ an agent, why did not they come down and ask leave of absence for Sir J Vogel, and propose to appoint him agent, with a fair and reasonable salary 1 He would not offer any objection to that, but would resent any attempt to defeat the constitutional rights of the people. He hoped some member on the present occasion would propose a resolution at once being passed by the Assembly, that no person should be called to the Executive Council if residing without the limits of the colony. Mr BuNNY said the circumstances in 1868 were different from the present, inasmuch as then no Government went out. He told the Government that there was a more positive, able, and energetic Opposition at the present time than existed in 1868, which latter Opposition twelve months later turned out the Government. After some remarks by Hon C. C. Bowen, Mr Wood, in a lengthy speech, said the Government was really influenced by Mr Stafford, whose influence had obtained seats in the Government for Mr Bowen and Major Atkinson. [Mr Stafford denied this and asked Mr Wood's authority], the Timaru Herald, which was recognised as inspired by member for Timaru. He had heard the same from a gentleman in Christchurch, and from a gentleman in Auckland, who was in a position to know these things, and from members of the House intimately acquainted with the member for Timaru. Though he could not go about the country boasting of having twelve or fifteen members at his disposal who would go into the lobby with him, he had his own vote, which he would give irrespective of all party feeling, associations, or connection. He would support the Government if they brought down measures which he considered calculated for public interests, and would oppose them when their bills had the opposite effect. Mr Johnston said Minisiers had not controverted the doctrines of Sir G. Grey. It was most desirable to know exactly whether the person who overruled the action of the loan agents, &c, did so clothed with some authority, or simply as Sir Julius Vogel. On an answer to that question would depend the view he took in reference to those matters. Mr Rolleston said Mr Stafford had unintentionally misled the House. The Royal instructions did not at all affect the question. He asked whether Ministers were aware before the close of last session that Sir J. Vogel intended to go home ? If so, the House had a right to be aggrieved. He had greater confidence in present Ministers than with Sir J. Vogel at their head, and'.thought the country would get more practical measures without him. To speak' plainly the colony would not lose much if Sir J. Vogel's leave of absence was postponed indefinitely. Mr O'Robke referred the House to the Act of last year, under which all executive officers must be sworn.

Sir D. McLean remarked that a considerable amount of misapprehension existed as to his colleague. He ••.•as sen* home with certain commissions mu! with instructions and power to carry them out. The severe illness under which Sir J. Vogel was suffering would secure sympathy from both sides of the House, and was ample justification for the leave asked for. With reference to what had fallen from the member for Parnell, he need hardly say that two members of the Government had not been appointed by the advice of the member for Timaru. The gentlemen alluded to were asked to take seats on the Treasury Bench before Sir J Vogel went to England. That disposed of that question. [Hear, hear.] With reference to the member for Parnell's remarks as to the member for Timaru influencing Government, the latter fully recognised his influence, and were happy to have his support, but he in no way controlled their action. The member for 'limaru had too much good taste and too long experience to condescend to direct the Government unless on his own responsibility ; and Government denied that it occupied any such position in reference to the member for Timaru. The resolution was then agreed to. (Press Telegraph Agency.) Wellington, July 29. Upon the House resuming at 7.30 yesterday, Mr Shepherd's Goldfields Act providing against the pollution of rivers by miners was read a second time ; the Government stating that the Bill went in the same direction they wished to legislate. Mr Macandrew also thought the Bill was in the right direction, but it did not go far enough. At the request of the Government, the econd reading of Mr Fitzherbert's Harbour Reserve Bill was also postponed. A resolution that the House should go into committee of the whole House to consider the question of supply was ordered to be considered to-morrow. Mr Reader Wood asked if the Government had authoritative opinion as to the powers oif the legislature to abolish the provinces. He said grave doubts existed. Mr Gillies had first directed his (Mr Reader Wood's) attention to the fact, as he (Mr Gillies) thought the legislature did not possess the power. Mr Reader Wood said the- Constitution Act by the third section says there must be a Superintendent and Provincial Councils, and no power had subsequently been given to the Assembly to upset that clause. The Speaker ruled that Mr Reader Wood was introducing a debateable question which was not allowed when asking a question. The Native Minister said the Government had no doubt whatever that the Assembly had full power to abolish the provinces. They had taken the opinion of the present Chief, Justice, and had laid the said opinion on the table. Much amusement was caused by the fact that while the AttorneyGeneral thought the Assembly had, the power, he thought it desirable that the opinion of a law officer in England should be taken in order to set all doubts at rest. Sir G. Grey asked that the opinion be produced. Mr Fitziierbert moved that it be printed in parallel columns, with the judges opinion referred to by Sir G. Grey, namely, that the only power possessed by the legislature was altering the boundaries of the provinces. The Native Minister promised to lay the opinion on the table. In reply to Mr Murray, the Native Minister said that the Government had not taken any steps to obtain the opinion of an Imperial law officer on the matter. In reply to Mr Rolleston, Major Atkinson said that there was no more correspondence relating to the four million loan, and consequently he could not lay it upon the table, but he would be happy to lay upon the table the despatch asked for, namely, that from the Duke of Newcastle, dated December 31st, 1873, having reference to the Crown agents. He would also ask that it be printed. In reply to Mr Wales, the Government said that the financial statement would be brought down on Friday next, and the Abolition question, the Insolvency Bill, and the Stamps Duties, and other Government measures as soon after that as possible, but they did not think that it would be on the same evening as the statement. A number of Bills were introduced and read a first time. Mr T. L. Shepherd's motion regarding the establishing of an Institute of Civil Engineers, to prevent unqualified persons practising as railway engineers, was negatived on the voices, the Government not seeing its way to do anything in the matter. On the motion of Sir G. Grey, the Native Minister gave an assurance that the Government would cause a commission of inquiry to be held at the Thames promptly, to inquire into the alleged illegal issue of miners' rights at the opening of the Ohenimuri, and that the report would be forthcoming before the close of the present session. Mr Rolleston moved for all corresponddence relating to the recent distribution of the Judges. He considered that the proceeding was a blow at the liberty and independence of the Supreme Court Judges, though probably it was done with good enough intention. Mr Bowen said such a thing was furthest from their intentions; none were more jealous of the independence of the Judges than the Government. No shadow of blame had been imputed to any of these distinguished gentlemen, and the Government hoped with the advice and assistance of the Judges themselves to make an arrangement which would fully provide for their freedom. All correspondence on the subject would be tabled as soon as possible. Messrs Wales and T. L. Shepherd supported the action of the Government in distributing the Judges as sound in principle and beneficial to the colony, and calculated to make the Judges more independent than under the old arrangement. The other business done was unimportant. The House adjourned at 9.30.