PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Globe, Volume IV, Issue 314, 15 June 1875, Page 3

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Monday, June 14. The Speaker took the chair at 5 p m. PAPERS. The Provincial Secretary laid on the table a return from the chief surveyor, showing approximately the amount of survey work of the Messrs Sealey remaining unplotted. salaries op teachers. Mr JEBSON asked the Government without notice whether it was the practice to paycertificated teachers in the Government schools the minimum rate of £l3O per annum, as allowed by the Ordinance, or whether it was the practice to pay them at the rate of £6 10s per head per annum on the average attendance at the schools. The Provincial Secretary said that he could not answer the hon member’s question off-hand. He had better give notice of the question. TEMUKA CEMETERY. Dr Rayner asked the Government without notice whether any steps were about to be taken to fence the Temuka cemetery, and also whether the Government were aware that a blacksmith’s shop had been erected on the reserve. The Provincial Secretary replied that the fencing of the Temuka cemetery was included in the grant of £3OO taken that session for fencing cemeteries. As regarded the latter portion of the hon member’s question, he could give no information. AKAROA ROAD. Mr WESTENRA desired to draw the attention of the Secretary for Public Works to the bad state of the road by Lake Forsyth. The Secretary for Public WoßKSjreplied that the Government would look into the matter. canterbury college. Mr Potts moved that the House go into committee to consider the following resolution—“ That his Honor the Superintendent be respectfully requested to place on the supplementary estimates a sum not exceeding £7OOO, for the purpose of carrying on the building of the Canterbury College.” It had been said that the Normal school would be a good substitute for the College, but the Governors did not think so, and in that opinion they were sustained by that of Rev Mr Habens, who was decidedly of opinion that it would not answer the purpose of a college. The fact was that the substitution of the Normal school was simply on account of it being on hand, and the province hardly knowing what to do with it. At the time the vote was omitted from the estimates there was considerable doubt as to the finances of the province, but now, owing to the satisfactory state of the land sales, there was no difficulty he apprehended in the financial part of the matter. Mr R. Turnbull rose to a point of order. He would ask for the ruling of the Speaker, as to whether the resolution was in order, as the question had been disposed of by the Council already. The Speaker said that the question had been decided by a committee of the Council, and not by the Council itself. The Provincial Secretary said that the position the Government took up was this, that the money might be voted as an alternative vote, ie., that the Government should have the opportunity of saying when the Normal school was finished, whether this would be suitable for the College. The Governors of the College, in waiting on the Government, took up the position that the Normal school was not fitted for lecture rooms, but the Government were of opinion that, with the exception of the lecture rooms for the professor of chemistry, the rooms were fitted for the ordinary lectures to be given in connection with the Canterbury College. The Government, under the conditions stated by him, would agree to the motion of the hon member for Port Victoria. Of course, the Government would take the opinion of the Council as to the disposition of the Normal school, and he should give notice of motion for next sitting day, “that in'ease the Normal school, on completion, be found to be suitable for the purposes of the Canterbury College, that his Honor the Superintendent be requested to take steps to apportion a part of the Normal School for that purpose.” Under this condition the Government would not oppose the motion of the hon member for Port Victoria, as by this means the Government would be left to carry out the work if found necessary, or if the Normal School were found to be applicable, to make use of that.

Mr R. Turnbull and Mr Brown spoke on the question of order, contending that the vote, having been rejected by the committee, the subject could not be re-opened. The Speaker ruled that the committee and tbe Council, as a whole, were two different bodies, and that all the Council had done with this vote was to refer it, with others, to a committee ; therefore the Council had not expressed any opinion upon it. Mr Turnbull thought this was a most undesirable way of voting the public money. The Government wanted to take it as an alternative vote ; but of course the College Governors, when they saw the amount put on the estimates, would oppose having the Normal School buildings. He (Mr Turnbull) objected to these large endowments being given to trustees to be locked up from the public. He thought the Government had departed from the line of economical policy laid down by them, and that they had made a mistake in consenting to the motion. He should oppose the motion. Mr Jebson thought that the primary question was if this amount was voted where the Canterbury College was to be situated. He hoped before the vote was passed that they should know where the College was to be built. His opinion was that it should be in the Domain. [Mr WILLIAMS— “ Oh.”] Well, that was his opinion, and he still held to it. If they could not agree as to the site, it was not, in his opinion, wise to pass this vote. It had been said if the Canterbury College removed to the Normal School tu at gentlemen would not send their children to it. Therefore it was that it looked much like voting a large sum of money for a special oLiss, and he objected to it. He should oppose the motion. Mr Pilliett said that by a large majority a committee of the whole House had rejected the vote, and he thought that this meant that the House, by the voice of the committee, had determined that this sum should not be voted. Under these circumstances and at the late period of the session, he thought the matter should not be brought up again, and therefore he would vote against it. The Secretary for Public Works wished to point out that they would not require to use this money, because they eon-

Bidered that the Normal School would answer the purposes of the College. As regarded the site, the Council had voted a sum for the purchase of a site, and a very suitable one had been secured, although the Governors objected to the site, owing to having enlarged ideas as to the size. Mr Knight said that he thought the hon member for Port Victoria in asking the Council to rescind the vote of a committee of the whole House, should have brought forward some arguments, but beyond the very weak one of the unsuitability of the Normal School, he had failed most signally and utterly in arguments to back up the resolution. He (Mr Knight) would oppose the dangerous precedent of allowing any Board of Governors or trustees of any kind to come down to that House and ask them to vote large sums of money to carry out their inflated and enlarged ideas as to buildings. The whole question of the site, and the building of the College, was in an undecided state : the site had not been fixed, as it had been resolved to put the College in the Domain, but the Legislative Council very wisely threw out a Bill introduced for that purpose. [Hear, hear.] Therefore the site‘ was not fixed. They had been (old that the rooms in the Normal school were not fit for the College; that they were too low; but he (Mr Knight) thought that they had better see to getting scholars before voting a large sum of money. It was much better to utilise what they had got to their hand rather than wait for years to erect a building which would suit the ideas of the Board of Governors. It had been said that the district interested would object to the Normal School being used for the College; but it seemed to him that they would be very averse to allowing 1200 of their children being educated in a school in which they had not the slightest voice. They would, he took it, much rather have a district school in which they would have a voice in the management. Let them wait until the Normal School was finished, when the annual session of the Council would come round, and the whole question could be discussed. Let the Council pass a resolution empowering the Government to use the Normal School if they thought proper, and this was quite enough for them to do at present. [Hear, hear J It had been said that an injustice would be done to West Christchurch if this school were used for a College. Now he might show them that the contribution of the East Christchurch district, when all the rates were collected, would be £2600, while that of thfe West Christchurch was £I7OO. Now the latter had told the Board of Education that they could erect a district school for £2500, so that no injustice would be done to the West Christchurch district, if they were to appropriate the £I7OO paid by them towards the erection of a district school. He hoped the Government would not go further than take a resolution empowering them to utilise the Normal school if they thought it necessary. Dr Banner was sorry to find that the Government had given way on this subject. He thought it very probable that they had done so from the pressure brought to bear upon them by leading articles in the papers. However this might be, it was a mistake in his opinion, He wished to duclaim, as had been imputed to the members of the South, that they were opposed to the cause of education. He should move as an amendment, that the words “ for the purpose of carrying on the buildings of the Canterbury College," be struck out.

Ultimately the hon member intimated hia intention of moving the amendment in committee.

Mr Webb strongly supported the resolution, as he thought that it would be a disgrace to the prorince if they did not vote the money, considering that the College had been affiliated.

MrJ. N. Tosswill desired to point out that large numbers of children would come from East as well as West Christchurch, and that in five years the whole of the Normal school would be required for the purpose, and therefore it would be far better to build a College away from the Normal school, rather than to place it in a wing of a building designed purely for an elementary school.

Mr Gray thought it would be a disgrace to the province if this vote were passed, [hear, hearj—because the Government had stated that they had no money for the drainage of Christchurch and most important work, and yet they now wished to vote £7OOO for this purpose, which was in no way comparable in the matter of importance with the drainage of Christchurch. Besides this, the College had a reserve of pastoral land, which in 1880, or only some five years hence, would produce some £IO,OOO a year, therefore it would be as well for them to allow of a temporary use being made of the Normal schools for lecture rooms, &c, and then in 1880 the College Governors would be in a position to build a college of their own out of the proceeds of their own estate. He hoped the House would pause in this matter, and not go further, as the College could well afford to wait till 1880, and then build a College from the funds accruing out of ita larae estate.

Mr Walkeii thought as they had sup* ported primary education liberally they should also do the same with regard to superior education. He therefore hoped the House would go into committee and rote the money on the understanding mentioned by the Provincial Secretary. Mr Dixon had supported the vote when in committee before, and should do so now, but he was of opinion that the Normal school should be strictly confined to its purpose; the more so as he believed every room would be required. Mr Joynt said this seemed to him to be the outcome of the course laid down by the Government that the Council might repudiate engagements entered into just as they thought proper, and just they might intimate to nisei plea When the brought down their p"U...<ues, they told them that, dicnough money had been voted for the Museum, College, and Public Buildings, the Council might, in view of their peculiar creed of morality, strike out these votes if they thought, proper. By this means, they had created a spirit which had now turned upon them and rended them, and which they were unable to stay. Now, that the Government had departed from the hard and fast rule laid down by them, that repudiation of votes of the Council might go on right and left, and had been twitted by their staunch* at and most adhesive supporters for having done so. But the Council must recollect that, not only had they rescinded a refolutiou of the Council, but that they had also rescinded and abrogated a portion of the Appropriation Act. The inconsistency lay with the hon members who now tried to throw out this vote. But while he said

this, he was of opinion that the blame of throwing out the resolution was on the heads of the gentlemen on the Government benches, who had tried to come back to a right frame of mind, but were unable to do so. or to overcome the spirit they had themselves called into being, by inviting tie members of that Council *o repudiate votes of the previous session right and left. As regarded the merits of the question, he might say that the arguments of the hon member for Lincoln were weak and inconclusive in the extreme. He (Mr Joynt) thought that the matter resolved itself into this—Do we require the Canterbury College ? Would hon members say that it was not required when they had a professional staff aud a large number of scholars ready to attend this school? If they could say this, let them strike it out. If it were required then he was quite at one with the proposition of the Government, as he thought that it was a fair one. He hoped the House would pass the motion under the condition mentioned by the Government. Mr Potts having replied, The motion for going into committee was put and declared to be agreed to on the voices. Mr Knight called for a division, which took place as follows : Ayes 18 Noes 11 Majority in favor of motion ... 7 The motion was therefore agreed to. The B ouse then went into committee. in committee Mr Potts moved the resolution.

The Provincial Secretary then moved as an amendment to add, after the words " Canterbury College," the words "if the Normal School be not found suitable for the purpose." [Hear, hear.] Mr Knight said he would move that the sum be reduced by £SOOO, because he certainly thought that the Council should not vote £7OOO for the building of the College on a site which was odious to the public of the province. [Hear, hear, and "No, no."] The resolution of the Council affirmed that the site of the College should be in the Domain, which was, as te had said, odious in the eyes of the public. The amendment he intended to propose was as follows—" That the sum be reduced by £5000." The Provincial Secretary quite agreed with the hon member for Lincoln that the building of the College on the Domain would be a mistake. If the hon member would withdraw his amendment he (Mr Maskell) would introduce the words " on the Worcester street site," which would, he felt sure, be more satisfactory to the general public of the province. Mr Knight withdrew his amendment.

The Provincial Secretary then moved as an amendment that after the words •'Canterbury College" the folio ving be added, "on the Worcester street site, if the Normal School or a portion thereof be not foHnd suitable for the purpose."

Mr Harper moved as an amendment that the words " on the Worcester street site " be struck out, and the words "in the Domain Grounds, near Antigua street, and fronting the Domain," inserted in lieu thereof.

Mr Knight said they were importing such serious and important considerations into this resolution, that be should move —" That the chairman report progress, and ask leave to sit again. The motion for reporting progress was then put and declared to be negatived. Mr Knight called for a division, but did not repeat his call when the door was closed. At this stage the committee adjourned for half an hour. On resuming,

Mr Knight again moved his motion for reporting progress, which was put, and negatived on the voices. The committee divided— Ayes 9 Noes 18 Majority against reporting progress 9 Mr Montgomery would support the amendment in favor of the Worcester street site.

The Provincial Secretary said that the Government were strongly opposed to the College being put in the Domain. He would be willing to withdraw the words he had moved to be added to the motion if the hon member for Ashley (Mr Harper) would withdraw his, and at the same time he distinctly stated that the Government would not be bound by the resolution fixing the site of the College in the Domain. Mr Jebson could not see how the site question could again be brought up after the resolution of last session.

Mr Fisher would support the site being granted, on the ground that he held the College question should not be shelved. Mr W, B. Tosswill was of opinion that the Domain would be by far the best site for the College. He, however, would like to see the motion deferred, as it was not fair that so important a question should be tacked on to a resolution, thereby taking the Council by surprise. Dr Turnbtjll thought that the introduction of the amendments into this resolution was a mistake. As regarded the question of the site of the College in the Domain, he might say that only one meeting was held against the site, while the House of Bepresentatives carried it by a very large majority, whilst it was only rejected in the Upper House by one vote—that of the casting vote of the Speaker. The Legislative Council even then did not consider the matter on its merits, but had sent it back to the Provincial Council for its reconsideration. It had not been reconsidered, and he deprecated the tacking on of this important question on to a resolution such as that of the hon member for Port Victoria. -TUa provincial Secretary said that he thought tfce w«t W ay would be to withdraw the two amendments, an* «n QW of a substantive motion to be brought down7~--AT.-iui.iiad said, the Government were in favor of the" Worcester street site ; but he thought it would be better to argue the matter of the site on its merits on a distinct motion. He would withdrow the amendment, and would then bring down a resolution rescinding the resolution of last session.

On the question being put, that the Provincial Secretary have leave to withdraw his amendment, the voices were against him. Mr Joynt rose to a point of order. They had a proposal to tack on certain words, which were in effect rescinding a resolution of last session, and was opposed to the standing orders which distinctly stated this should not be done without notice having been given. The Chairman ruled that the amendments were in order.

Mr W. B. Tosswill supported Mr Joynt's idea on the point ci order*

Mr Joynt then rose to a second point of ordir, viz, that the amendments were contrary to standing orders, as they were of a totally different character to the resolution before the Mouse.

The Speaker said lis impression was that the amendment was relevant, as it limited the grant to a more specific mode of disposal than the resolution. As regarded the second point, if the amendments were relevant then notice had been given by the original motion.

The Chairman ruled that the amendments were relevant to the question. The Provincial Secretary and Mr Harper then withdrew their amendments by leave.

The words "if the Normal school, or a portion thereof, be not found suitable for the purpose" were then put as an addition to the resolution as proposed by the hon member for Port Victoria (Mr Potts), The resolution as amended was then put to the committee, agreed to on the voices, reported to the House, and adopted. PERSONAL EXPLANATION.

Dr Turnbull rose to make a personal explanation. He on a former occasion had stated that an hon member of that House was directly interested in certain sections under consideration by a committee of which he was chairman. That hon member had distinctly proved that he had surrendered the lease under which he held an interest. When the hon member produced the surrender lease, he (Dr Turnbull) called upon his informants, Mr Bray, Mr T. S. Duncan, and Mr Mcllraith, to give the evidence upon which the matter had been brought before him (Dr Turnbull); on turning up the rate roll of 1874-5 for the South Malvern district they fiud that John Jebson was registered for section 16169, and his sons for section 3717. He was not going to make any further charge, but was simply proceeding to show justification. This year the names of Sheath's trustees were substituted for the names of the hon member for the Rakaia and his sons. On October 7th the hon member wrote both in his own name and that of his sons to the clerk of the Road Board, asking to have his name and those of his sons replaced on the roll, which had been struck off. On the same day the hon member protested to the South Malvern Road Board that his name had been left off the roll. The revising officer called for a new rate roll to be made, and in consequence of the objections of the hon member for Rakaia, the revising officer ordered a new roll to be made, which was done. The hon member for the Rakaia had objected to his name being struck off ; but when the name was replaced at his own request he did not object. Therefore he (Dr Turnbull) thought he was fully justified in doing what he had done, seeing that the name of the hon member for Rakaia was on the rate roll for the sections brought before the committee of which he was chairman. He had thought it his duty to do what he had done, and he thought that what he had now brought before the House had justified him in doing so. [Hear, hear.J Mr Jebson was sorry that the hon member for Christchurch had been so industrious in this matter. He might say that he had submitted the deed of release to the committee and to tne House, and the hon gentleman's solicitors had stated that the charge against hira had no foundation as proved by the deed. The papers laid before the House by the hon gentleman were Road Board papers, and obtained without permission of the Road Board. The real fact was that he (Mr Jebson) was a tenant at a week's notice, and the hon gentleman's friends were the true occupiers. The first charge having been defeated without a scintilla of evidence to support it, the hon gentleman now came down with another, trying to make out that he (Mr Jebson) hai done what was not right. The hon member for Christchurch (Dr Turnbull) had come down to that House, and though he had received some £6O as an honorarium as surgeon of the hospital, he had received it at various times as gifts in sums of £l4 and £ls, so as to obviate the resignation of his seat in the Council. If the hon member came down at the instigation of his friends to load him (Mr Jebson) with opprobrium, he should at least see that he came with clean hands.

The Speaker: I think the hon gentleman is scarcely in order in going into this matter, as it is likely to cause debate. The House will, I am sure, hear anything the hon member may have to say in explanation, but I would remind him that the whole of this discussion is by indulgence of the House. Mr Jebson would then say that he never had any interest beyond what he had stated, and would not go further. The matter then dropped. CASE OP WM. BAGLEY.

The adjourned debate on the following resolution in committee, was then taken:— '• That a respectful address be presented to his Honor the Superintendent, requesting him to place on the supplementary estimates a sum not exceeding £l3O as a grant in aid to the widow of William Bagley, lately an employe on the Canterbury Railways, who died while in the service of the Government." The Provincial Secretary said that a sum of £6O had been subscribed for the widow by the railway employes, and there was also a sum subscribed by the general public for the same purpose. She was also receiving aid from the Government and medical comforts. He would suggest that the grant, if made, should be for the benefit of the children and vested in trustees for them. He trusted that this would not be taken as a precedent, because it was a very bid system, and the Government hoped next session to be able to elaborate a scheme to provide for accidents of this character in the railway and other departments of the Government. [Hear, hear.]

Mr Joynt asked leave to amend the resolution as follows, that the word " widow" be struck out, and the word "children" inserted jn lieu thereof, and that at the end of the resolution the following words be added—- " And that sucK sum of money be invested in the names of two trustees for such purposes, on condition that the land devised by the will of the said William Bagley be also vested in trustees for the same purpose." The amendment was agreed to, and the resolution as amended passed, reported to the House, and adopted. EXECUTIVE COUNCIL ORDINANCE, 1864, AMENDMENT ORDINANCE, 1875.

The Provincial Secretary, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said that the present Provincial Solicitor was oi opinion that the Superintendent could appoint a Provincial Solicitor outside the Council. The Government intended to take this -is a rescinding of the resolution of the House or. this subject, and would not presa the Bill beyond the second reading,

Mr Montgomery snid that it appeared to him that to do what the Provincial Secretary had stated, to rescind the resolution of the House, would be to place a large district of the province in a peculiar position ; because if the resolution respecting the Provincial Selicitor were to be so rescinded the resolution respecting the division of the revenue south of the Rangitata might also be done so without due notice having been given. He hoped, therefore, that the Government would reconsider this matter, and give notice of a motion to rescind the resolution arrived at by the Council. The motion for the second reading was then put and agreed to.

The House went into committee on the Bill, when it was passed without amendment and reported to the House. THE EDUCATION BILL. The third reading of this Bill was passed on the voices with one dissentient. The Bill then passed. SHEEP ORDINANCE AMENDMENT ORDINANCE. This Bill was further considered in committee. After several clauses had been considered, progress was reported, and leave given to sit again tomorrow. FENCING ORDINANCE, 1875. The House went into committee for the further consideration of this Bill. Several clauses having been considered, progress was reported, and leave given to sit again to-morrow. THE OHOKA STREAM.

Mr Dixon moved that the House go into committee to consider the following:—" That h's Honor the Superintendent be respectfully requested to place on the supplementary estimates not exceeding £250, as a grant in aid for clearing the Ohoko stream from the mouth up to the boundary of the Mandeville and Rangiora drainage district. The Secretary for Public Works said that the Government were of opinion that this work should be done by the Road Boards.

Mr I. Wilson supported the motion, as the work was necessary. Mr Brown would be glad to know who was to spend the money —was it the Provincial Government or the Road Boards? He hoped, however, that the Council would vote this money, and that the Government would spend the money themselves if they thought it necessary.

Mr Dixon having replied, the resolution was put and agreed to.

In committee, Mr Dixon moved the resolution

The resolution, after some observations, was declared to be negatived on the voices. Mr Dixon demanded a division. The committee divided with the following result.—

Ayes 9 Noes 13 The resolution was therefore negatived. SUPERIOR SCHOOLS. Dr Turnbull moved that the House go into committee to consider the following resolution —"That his Honor the Superintendent be respectfully requested to place on the supplementary estimates the sum of £3OO, for the purpose of subsidising schools made use of by the Board of Education for the education of holders of Government scholarships." Mr R. Turnbull rose to a point of order. This was a similar motion to the one brought forward by the hon member for the Ashbur-. ton (Mr Walker), and negatived by 16 to 11. He would desire to have the ruling of the hon Speaker on the subject.

The Speaker said that the motions were not similar.

Mr Turnbull felt certain that if the hon member for Christchurch stated what was the fact he would say that the money would, if voted, go to Christ's College. He would oppose the resolution. The Provincial Secretary said the Government would oppose this vote, because the House had decided that a grant should not be given to Christ's College, and they recognised in this motion, though not quite the same, an attempt to obtain the grant for Christ's College.

Mr W. B. Tosswill was in favor of this resolution, because there were five schools in the province at which the holders of Government scholarships were receiving their education, Mr Knight opposed the motion.

Mr Joynt was thoroughly opposed to special grants such as this being given to denominational schools, which really would be the case if this vote was carried by the Council.

Mr Walker supported the resolution. Mr Brown spoke strongly against the motion,

Dr Turnbull having replied, The motion was put and declared to be negatived on the voices. Dr Turnbull called for a divisien which took place as follows : Ayes 6 Noes 16

Majority against resolution ... 10 The resolution was consequently negatived. RANGIORA AND MANDEVILLE DRAINAGE. Mr Isaac Wilson moved that the House go into committee to consider the following resolution—" That his Honor the Superintendent be respectfully requested to place on the supplementary estimates a sum not exceeding £I2OO, for the completion of the drainage works in the Mandeville and Rangiora district."

The Secretary for Public Works said the Government would oppose this resolution.

After some discussion the motion was put and declared to be negatived on the voices. Notices of motion having been given, the House adjourned at 1 a.m. to 3 p.m. this day.