PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Globe, Volume III, Issue 298, 27 May 1875, Page 2

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Wednesday, May 26. The Speaker took the chair at 3 p.m. PETITION. Mr Wynn Williams presented a petition from certain residents on the River Styx, praying that a sum should be placed upon the estimates for clearing the River Styx from watercress. The petition was read and received. SHEEP ORDINANCE, 1875. On the motion of the PROVINCIAL SOLICITOR, an extension of time to Friday next, was granted to the committee jon the Sheep Ordinance, 1875. OVERLOADING OF PASSENGER CARRIAGES. Mr I. Wilson asked the Secretary for Public Works if any steps are being taken to prevent the overloading of passenger carriages on the Northern Railway. The Secretary for Public Works replied that he was not aware that there was any overloading of passenger carriages on the railway. It might, of course, occur on a holiday time, but on any other occasion the persons incommoded should complain to the traffic manager, and have the matter enquired into. Now the matter had been brought under his notice, he (Mr Peacock) would see into it. surveys. Mr R, Turnbull [moved—“ That in the opinion of this Council the manner in which the survey department is conducted is most unsatisfactory, and requires the immediate attention of the Government.” In taking this step he might be called presumptuous in making the charge he did in this resolution. Of course he should be prepared to show cause why he had felt it his duty to bring this matter before the Council. Last evening he was sorry not to be able to accede to the request of the Provincial Secretary to withdraw his opposition to item of £14,000 for contract surveys. Last session the head of the then Government, when the subject of contract surveys was brought under hisl notice, rose with that gravity of deportment which the present Provincial Secretary only wanted to make him perfection, and said that the Government would, if members took no ‘further steps upon it, see that the matter was enquired into by them. Hon members last session called the attention of the House to the fact that the contract surveys were simply made a system of patronage for the office of chief sur eye r, and that the province did not get the work done for the money which was paid for it. He should now refer to the report of Major Palmer, which he might say he considered was virtually the report of the chief surveyor. [“No, no.”] Well, the report of Major Palmer must, to a great extent, be dependent upon the information given to him by the chief surveyor. After referring to the triangulatiou, Major Palmer went on to say that there was no mathematical precision nor uniform system pursued in their surveys; hence a large sum of money was annually paid for what could not be looked upon as being good work. Major Palmer went even further than this, and said that errors were systematically concealed or overlooked. There could be no mistake about that; there were the words of the report for it, and they must either admit that they were paying a large sum of money yearly for work which was practically useless, or they must say that Major Palmer’s report was incorrect and worthless. He said that if there was any department in the public service in which excellence might be looked for it was in the [survey department, because the House and country had always dealt liberally with it, and had so far as possible paid large sums, so that the best men might be employed. Now, however, it seemed, if they believed Major Palmer’s report, that there was no department of the service which was so badly conducted. They had voted hundreds of thousands of pounds, and yet they had a service which, if they believed Major Palmer, was below mediocrity. He would now ask the House to bear with him while he stated the grounds upon which he based his charges. In tha first place he should speak of the bad condition of the maps and plans of the province; secondly!

of the concealment of known errors; thirdly, of the unreliability of the surveys ; and fourthly, of the undue exercise of patronage by the chief surveyor. Now, after the large sums which had been voted, it was only to be expected that the maps of the province should be in a good condition; but he must say that they were in a disgraceful condition and utterly unreliable, so that the deeds which spoke of such and such a section on the maps of the chief surveyor were very likely co be quite astray, hence great complications might arise. He might also mention that the field books were also missing, which was a most remarkable thing, to say the least of it. Then again he came to the matter of the unreliability of the maps which was every day being brought to light, and he said this if they allowed stubborn men to remain in power without calling them to account, then the House was not doing its duty. If a commission were appointed to take evidence on oath, he (Mr Turnbull) would be prepared to bring some remarkable facts to light. He knew a case in which the surveyor had been requested not to send up his field books, and to mark off a road through the section which had been bought away from a man whom the chief surveyor delighted to honor. If this matter came before the House he should be prepared to show such facts as would astonish the House. Now he came to the persistent overlooking and concealment of errors. He might say that in James’s case, which had been before the House, the surveyor was notably incompetent and had been dismissed from the service in Otago for incompetency. The chief surveyor who could keep a man so thoroughly incompetent on the work was, to say the least of it, no* doing his duty, and fully justified him (Mr Turnbull) in saying that the conduct of the department was most unsatisfactory. He now came to the last charge, that of contract surveys, for which the present Government came down and asked for £14,000, and £SOOO contingencies, He contended that these contract surveys were simply an exercise of patronage on the part of the chief surveyor. ' In doing so, he would give facts and figures, not suppositions. Last session he had asked for certain papers to be laid on the table, and what had been done 1 Why, that only the two accepted contracts were laid on the table, thus showing that there was something behind. When the matter came up before the House, it was resolved that the whole of these contract surveys should be open to general tenders. In the departmental report of the chief surveyor, he stated that there was no lack of response to his request for surveyors. Now, how had the tenders been made public ? Only eight days’ notice had been given of this very large amount of money, and this only in the four local journals. The report of the chief surveyor stated that there were ten tenders sent in, three of which were informal, and that he had taken an average on the whole of the tenders. The three successful tenderers, it was to be noted, were exactly the same price, differing only in details, being at Is fid per acre. Another tenderer was below these three, offering at Is fid per acre; but still the chief surveyor had passed this one over, to give it to the three gentlemen he had referred to, being the highest tenderers. He thought that where so large a sum could have been saved to the province, it was the duty of the Government to have looked into this matter, and not allow

the chief surveyor thus to exercise patronage to the detriment of the province. Therefore he said that the House should now exercise its power, and strike out the item of £14,000 for contract surveys. The chief surveyor seemed to manifest great interest in the surveys south of the Rangitata, and said that Mr Sealey and the others who had gone to such a large expense for plant, &c, should not have their contracts determined abruptly. He (Mr Turnbull) looked upon it that this was most peculiar, and a fact that required looking into. He thought that the facts that had been brought before the House fully justified him in saying that the conduct of the department was most unsatisfactory. Let the House look at what was said by Major Palmer; that gentleman, presumably the best authority in the colony, most emphatically spoke against the continuance of compass surveys and contract surveys. Well, jwhile this was the case, he thought the House should not vote this large sum of money for contract surveys. There was another point upon which Major Palmer was very explicit, and that was that there should be a regular system of field inspection. [Hear, hear.] As he bad stated, he had endeavored to bring before the House facts which seemed to him to prove that the conduct of the chief surveyor was most unsatisfactory as regarded tie manner in which the department was conducted. He hoped the House would take some steps in the matter to remove the evils complained of, stop the enormous exercise of patronage now held by the chief surveyor, and generally to see the service put on a proper footing. He now begged to move the motion standing in his name. Mr Pilliet said that he seconded the motion with great pleasure, because he believed in every word that had fallen from the hon member who had just sat down. Last session the President of the late Executive had promised to see that steps were taken to remedy what had been complained ■of by several hon members, but the fact was that not a thing had been done in the matter, and the department remained just in the same condition. Major Palmer’s report on the surveys of the colony stated that the surveys of Otago and Wellington were gene•rally correct, and why could not Canterbury -be the same 1 He thought the reason of the ■grievances under which the public here had been groaning for some time arose from the fact that the head of the survey department was a man who had no system whatever, or if he had, from obstinacy or some other cause, failed to carry it out, and thus the department was in a thorough state of disorganisation. When the late President of the Executive said that he would see into matter, he (Mr Pilliet) thought that there would be some chance of redress. He (Mr Pilliet) had before him the report of the chief surveyor on inaccurate surveys, which went further than even the hon member for Timaru (Mr Turnbull) or himself (Mr Pilliet), disclosing as it did a state of things quite unparalleled in any British colony. It said that owing to the state of the surveys in this province the action of the Land Transfer Act was rendered a dead letter. If this was the case, why did not the chief surveyor bring the matter before the Government, instead of waiting until the information was dragged out of him by a resolution of the Council. By doing this the chief surveyor had not done his duty. Ihf surveys on Bank’s Peninsula were, according to tha chief surveyor’s re-

port, completely wrong, and went to prove that any sectional survey carried out on the basis laid down inaccurately, was simply a waste of the money of the province. Not only so, but he believed that the surveyor now in charge at Akaroa was still going round the Peninsula making sectional surveys from wrong data altogether. Major Palmer’s report stated that there was no field examination, nor check over the work of the surveyors, which of course had resulted in the perpetuation of errors. When this was the case it was the duty of the chief surveyor to have visited the districts and examined for himself into the state of things. Now he (Mr Pilliett) believed that the chief surveyor had never visited any of the districts of the province except Timaru. Last session he (Mr Pilliett) asked for a return of the cost per acre for the survey of a certain district, but he was told by the Provincial Secretary that the chief surveyor was unable to give the cost per acre. Now, in Otago and Wellington the district surveyors not only sent in reports of their operations, but also of the cost per acre. He considered that the chief surveyor was master of the situation, because he might say that when he (Mr Pilliet) went to the office and required to consult a public map the chief surveyor refused to allow of this being done until the matter had been brought in writing before the Executive. As regarded the state of the maps, he might say that there were very few record maps in the office of use either to the public or the profession, and the result was that the province was at the mercy of the chief surveyor and his staff. He considered that this was a most unsatisfactory state of things, and one which behoved the Council at once to see into. He stated it most positively, that the present state of the maps in the survey office was such as to be fairly astonishing. On one occasion recently he had to make certain inquiries professionally as to a certain section in a Road Board district. He tried to obtain the information he required from the only record map in existence, but he was unable to do so, and was told that if he wanted the information he must wait until a certain gentleman returned to town who was the only one who knew anything about the map. Therefore, if that gentleman were to die or to be removed, no one else would be in a position to explain the map. This was surely a most unsatisfactory state of things. Now, as regarded the contract surveys. The chief surveyor had said that he had taken the mean of the ten tenders sent in; but this was not the fact, because he had given the work to the two highest tenders. The highest tenders which had been accepted were for £4 a mile, while there were tenders as low as £2 per mile. But further than this some of the tenderers were district surveyors, notably Mr Hoskings, and were drawing salaries from the province. The present Government spoke of the necessity of retrenchment, but he would desire to point out that one-third more was being paid by the province than was necessary. The chief surveyor in his report stated that £4 per mile was a fair remuneration, but he (Mr Pilliet) might say that while the chief surveyor was a contract surveyor before taking office, that gentleman was taking contracts at £3 per mile, and subletting it at £1 10s per mile. LLa-iighter.”! As an instance of the extravagance and waste of money which had been going on, he might say that on a small contract survey taken by the present chief surveyor he received £750, while the work was done by another gentleman for him for £37, the work taking one week to perform. [Hear, hear.] As regarded the remark of the chief surveyor in his report as to the plant of Messrs Sealey and Bain, he (Mr Pilliet) might say that the horses, &c, had been sold to those gentlemen by the chief surveyor himself, and further than that these gentlemen had taken the office from the chief surveyor in Timaru, for which the province had to pay £SO per annum. He contended that there was no system of supervision whatever exercised by the chief surveyor, even over

the contract surveys. He took their words for everything, and authorised progress payments without knowing anything about what they were doing. As regarded the matter of James Bros, he (Mr Pilliet) stated it was one of the most serious charges ever made against an official. The surveyor on Banks’ Peninsula was charged with having cooked his field book ; with having sent in a survey of land which he had never seen. What had been done ? Eleven months ago the chief surveyor had written saying the matter would be enquired into. But the fact was that very great difficulty would be experienced by any one endeavoring to bring forward any enquiry , because all the professional men in Christchurch were in the pay of the chief surveyor; there was not one of them but what received money from him, hence it would be impossible to receive professional evidence on the question if a commission were to be appointed. He had hoped that when the present chief surveyor took office, the department would have been reorganised, but the fact was it was such an Augean stable that the chief surveyor did not feel able to cope with it, but it was his duty to have done so. As regarded Major Palmer’s report he (Mr Pilliet) contended that Major Palmer drew all his information from the chief surveyor, and from whatever plots and maps the chief surveyor laid before him. It was also strange that the report highly lauded the surveys south of the Rangitata, but he (Mr Pilliet) contended that they were in a most remarkable state of confusion. The Provincial Secretary said that the resolution was one which the Government felt considerable difficulty in meeting, because they had not been long enough in office to be able to say what was the condition of the survey office. The Government were, however, aware that very serious complaints had been made against the Survey Department, which had now culminated in more serious charges being made against the department than had been before. The charges now brought before the House by the hon member for Seadown, and the hon member who had seconded the resolution, were of a different character than the one last year asking for the appointment of a commission; that commission was asked for on the ground of inaccuracy of surveys, but this he took it was rather affecting the honour of the department, and the Government would not for one moment shrink from a searching and strict inquiry being made at once, [Hear, hear.] If the hon gentleman would allow of the wording of the resolution being altered, so as to read “ That, in the opinion of this Council, the manner in which the Survey Department is conducted requires the immediate attention of the Government” if this were done the Government would pledge itself to see that a strict and searching en-

quiry should be made, either by commission or otherwise, but the Government thought that the wording of the resolution as now, was somewhat too strong. In reference to the question of the £14,000 proposed to be expended on contract surveys, the Government might say that, as engagements had been entered into, they could not terminate the system of contract surveys at once and abruptly; therefore, it would be impossible for the Government to consent to the amount being struck out. As he had before said, the Government would be prepared to see that a searching enquiry was made'into the matter brought before the House by the hon member for Seadown (Mr Turnbull), as it was one affecting the honor of the department. [Hear, hear.] He would move as an amendment, that the words “ is most unsatisfactoiy and” be struck out. Mr Tbschemaker said that, as regarded the inaccuracy of the maps, he might say that, on a section of land purchased by himself, a road had been marked out on the Tiraaru maps, and sent up to the Christchurch map to be placed on it, but though eighteen months had elapsed, the chief surveyor had not yet seen that this matter was attended to. Mr Brown said that some years back, the question of surveys had been brought before the House, but he must say that he was quite astonished at the revelations which were made. He hoped that the department would be able to rebut the changes which had been made, but he must say that the facts brought before the House were such as to leave very little opportunity of this being done. As an instance of what state the surveys were in he might mention that the General Government surveyor, who had been making a survey in the North for railway purposes, had not found one section correctly surveyed. It. therefore, behoved the House to see that the Government not only took steps for inquiry, but also went further than this, and next session came down to the House prepared to suggest some means of alleviating the evil scorn plained of. He thought a j)7'ima facie case had been made out by the mover and seconder of the resolution, but he thought that it would be better if the word “ unsatisfactory” was left in with the word “ apparently” before it. Mr W. B, TOSSWILL thought that after the speeches they had that evening heard, the Government could, he thought, take no other course than the one they had, and at once institute a rigid and searching inquiry. ["Hear, hear.] He was glad, therefore, to find that the Government had taken up the course they had, because while holding that the Government were bound to support their officers as far as possible, it could not for one moment be expected that after the charges made that evening that anything but a full and searching inquiry should be granted. [Hear, hear.] Mr Jollib said that he was very glad to find that the Government had taken the course of agreeing to the appointment of a commission to inquire into the charges made against the survey department. Hon members must recollect that as the hon member for Rangiora had said, there was as yet only one side of the question heard, and therefore until the matter came before the proper tribunal—a commission—he thought the House ought to suspend their judgment. The hon member for Seadown had referred

to the promise of the late Government to inquire into the matter of the surveys. A resolution for the appointment of a commission was thrown out because the charge at that time was simply of inaccuracy, and not as now of the very grave nature it had since assumed. As regarded the contract surveys, he might say that the Government, and not the chief surveyor, had accepted the tenders. Had the Government taken the lowest tender, the probability was that the work would have been very unsatisfactorily carried out ; or, had it been commenced, the tenderer would have found it would not pay, and have thrown it up, leaving the Government without surveyors, What the Government wanted was to get the work done as well as possible, and by surveyors who were competent. He did not think that the survey department had been treated so liberally as the hon member for Seadown had represented. He knew that the chief surveyor had had to re-arrange his estimates to meet the requirements of the province, so that the department was not altogether to blame. As regarded Major Palmer’s report, he believed it was a good report as far as it went; but he felt that the short time Major Palmer had been in the province only allowed him to make a very cursory inspection of the survey. It must be recollected that the survey department had not had the opportunity given to them of proving their work, as they had had to undertake it in the early days of the province with inefficient instruments, and in a short time, so as to be ready to receive the settlers on their arrival. It was a fact that the surveyors had done their best with the instruments and means at their disposal. On the plains over 20,000 sections had been surveyed, and only very trifling inaccuracies had been discovered; in no single instance had an action at law been raised over the survey of the plains. What was needed was that a larger triangulation should be made so as to test the accuracy of the surveys. No doubt the survey of Bank’s Peninsula was very inaccurate, and special means would have to be adopted to alter this. The chief surveyor had this matter under his attenti®n, and he was now endeavouring to correct the errors where possible. It had been said that the chief surveyor had not attended to the matter on the Peninsula; but he (Mr Jollie) might say that he had done so. It must be recollected that the survey of Bank’s Peninsula was attended with considerable difficulty. So far as regarded the gentleman who formerly had charge of the surveys there, he understood that now he had ceased to hold the appointment. During the recess the Government had taken every precaution to procure the best surveyors, and had advertised in the colonial papers, resulting in some sixty applications being sent in, all of which had been submitted to the Government by the chief surveyor. He must say that he hoped the House would not form any opinion upon the case until the chief surveyor had been heard in his own defence. I Hear, hear.] Mr HIGGINS said that he was glad to find that the Government had acceded to the wish of the mover and seconder of the resolution, and expressed their intention of holding a searching enquiry into the matter. Of course, with the character of the charges, no other course could have been adopted. He (Mr Higgins) might say that he believed the survey of the plains of Canterbury was quite as accurate as the Ordinance survey of the United Kingdom. He thought that Major Palmer’s report was not so important as if be had had longer time to consider the

matter upon which he had reported. Major

Palmer had given them very good advice, but still very general advice. Mr Parker pointed out that the survey of England, Ireland, and Scotland, was now being carried out upon a very much larger scale than during former years, the Ordinance surveys then taken being superseded. Mr Jebson said that, in the report of the chief surveyor, he found that it was staled that the inaccuracies in the surveys had the result of making the Land Transfer Act inoperative in the province, and rendering it necessary to have all deeds and Orown grants altered. The hon member for Selwyn’s speech seemed to him (Mr Jebson) to be a bit of special pleading, and besides this, he had made a mistake as to the number of sections surveyed, which he had stated at 20,000, whereas the chief surveyor stated that up to 1874 some 15,000 only had been surveyed. Last session the hon President of the Executive promised that no more land should be sold in the hill country until the roads had been surveyed. But what were the facts ? Some time back a man purchased a section of land, but was unable to get the survey completed, and was obliged to proceed with his improvements, &c. Within the past ten days the survey had been completed, and it was found that his fences, &c, were on another man’s land. The hon member lor Selwyn went on to say that the Government accepted the tenders for the contract survey, but he (Mr Jebson) held a memo from the hon gentleman to the chief surveyor, in which he stated that in accordance with the recommendation of the chief surveyor they had accepted the tenders of Messrs Scaley, and yet the hon member wished the House to believe that the Government had themselves accepted the tenders. Again, the hon gentleman went on to say, that the Government would not accept the lowest tender because they would not have confidence in the accuracy of their surveys. Mr JoLLiB—I did not say anything of the kind. Mr Jebson was of course bound to accept the denial of the hon gentleman, but he must say that what he had said conveyed that impression to his mind. Now he found that Mr Hoskings, the lowest tenderer, had been for thirteen years in the service of the survey department, and he thought that the imputations thus cast upon the professional reputation of a gentleman in the public service was uncalled for. That gentleman had offered to do the work for less than the other tenderers, but yet his tender had been rejected, thus costing the province one-third more. They were told by the chief surveyor that the Crown grants issued required cancellation, but whether on the plains or in the hills they were not told. He might say that he did not think the Gsvernraent were the proper persons to inquire into this matter, because they would be sitting on their own case. He would move, as a further amendment, that the word “ most” be struck out before the word “ unsatisfactory,” and the word “ apparently” inserted therein, and that at the end of the resolution the following words be substituted—” and should be inquired into by a special commission during the recess.” He felt that the inquiry should be conducted quite outside of the Government, and by persons who would not be judging their own case. This being done, he thought the Government would be relieved from a great deal of work and responsibility. In Otago the work of surveying had been carried out with accuracy and at half the cost of that in Canterbury. This was a fact that no one could dispute ; and, further than this, he contended that no man in Canterbury knew whether the land he occupied was his own or not. He felt also that the appointment of the chief surveyor as a member of the Waste Lauds Board was a mistake.

At this stage the House adjourned for refreshment. On the House resuming, Mr Jebson said that the Chief Surveyor occupied a very anomalous position. In no case should he be a member of the Waste Lands Board, whereas the chief surveyor was the Waste Lands Board as well as the chief surveyor. In fact he had the power to decide any difficulties which might arise, and moreover he was a party to making rules and regulations under which the sales of waste lands should be conducted. Then too the chief surveyor had relegated to him the power of saying who should do the work. So that in fact he made the rules, fixed the terms, and then said who should do the work; This was proved by an extract from the report of the chief surveyor, which he (Mr Jebson) would read. [Read.] The fact was that the plurality of offices and combination of power was a great obstruction to the efficiency of the department. With every respect for the ability and zeal of the chief surveyor, he (Mr Jebson) must say that that official was overworked. All these circumstances combined rendered the cost of the department most expensive, and moreover had a tendency to complicate matters between the waste lands and survey departments. There were some who could get their land surveyed and Crown grants issued almost immediately, whilst others had to wait for years before they could get Crown grants. This system in many cases had the effect of throwing the original purchaser back upon all the errors of the department, to make his way out of them as best he could. He (Mr Jebson) would contend that there ought to be a tribunal outside the Board to whom all matters in dispute could be deferred, instead of as now referring them to the chief surveyor, and making his decision final. Now the Government had to endorse the action of both the Waste Lands Board and of the chief surveyor. This, he would submit, ought not to be; but there ought to be a Board established to whom such matters could be referred, and then there would be an end to all the bickerings, heartburnings, and strong language now frequently used. Going back to the estimates, he (Mr Jebson) did not see how the House could pass them in the present state; neither did he see how the Government could, with justice to the country, ask the country to pay a large sum for surveys when it had been offered to be done for so much less. He believed that the Government, not being professional men, could not deal with the chief surveyor; but they were perfectly competent to deal with finance. He believed it was not competent to move the amendment which he had suggested, but he trusted that the resolution, amended as he proposed, would be adopted. Mr R. Turnbull said that some time s ; nce he had charged the chief surveyor with being guilty of an undue exercise of patronage. Sir Cracroft Wilson said it was not his intention to enter upon the subject matter of this motion, but he wished to ex-

press his regret that the late Government did not at orce enter upon—as promised by the president of the late Executive —the duty of enquiring into the statements made last session against the survey department, and that regret was rendered more poignant by the fact that no explanation had been offered by any member of the late Government as to why they abstained from initiating the enquiry so solemnly promised. The hon member for the Rakaia had stated that Government were bound to defend the honor of all their servants. This was true to a certain extent, but this was not the whole truth, the Government was bound to protect the honor of the Provincial Council, and at the same time to protect their own honor. But there was a still more holy duty to perform, which was to protect the interests of the public. All these separate duties could only be performed in the matter before the House, by the appointment of a commission to enquire into the charges made by the members for Seadown and the Bays, and that commission must consist of fearless, educated men, and some experts taken from outside the province. A pledge made last session by the gentleman whose position he (Sir C. Wilson) now held had not been fulfilled, and it might be said why should they not act in the same manner. He replied all men were not alike, and he would add that neither fear nor favor should prevent the present Government from adopting the course which he had pointed out.

Mr Montgomery said that the late Government had made a promise that they would give the matter their best consideration. There were charges affecting the personal honor of a gentleman in the department, and the then Government then wrote to those who had made vague charges in the House to make them definitely in writing, and the reply was, “ appoint a commission and we will bring the charges.” The Government called on those gentlemen to make the charges definitely in writing, and they did not do so. [“ Name, name.”] The hon member for Waimate was one, and the present Provincial Solicitor was another. He deprecated any person rising in that House and making vague charges which affected not only the personal character of a gentleman, but it might be his bread. Then as to arrears of work, he contended that every effort had been made to bring up those arrears, and as to the contract surveys he would submit that the Government, in allowing the chief surveyor to choose the contract surveyors, had acted with great judgment. The then Government believed then, and still believe the chief surreyoi to be a man, not only of great ability, but of unimpeachable honor. Then he (Mr Montgomery) would ask how could the Government turn the chief surveyor out of his office and disgrace him, when no charge had been proved against him. He (Mi Montgomery was of opinion that the Government now had a much better staff of surveyors at their disposal than the late Government had in August last, and therefore, there was reason to believe that the surveys would be more satisfactorily performed. According to a report made by the chief surveyor, it was shown that errors existed in the surveys before he took office. With such a report before them what did the late Government want with a commission to point out that the surveys of the province were inaccurate —for they knew it already. The remedy for the existing evils was that any adjustments which might be necessary should be made in the Crown grants, and this was what the then Government thought was best to be done. He would read an extract from the Argus of 11th December last, which would show that precisely the same difficulties had arisen in Victoria as had been experienced here. [Read.] He did not think the House should have allowed such arrears to accumulate, or that the Government should for years have allowed it; but now they were laying the whole blame of a faulty system, and of an accumulation of years, on the late Government. He did not wish to excuse the late Government, but this he would say, that they did their best in their judgment to meet the evils complained of. He quite approved of a commission of enquiry, but he trusted that the charges would be specific, not merely vague and general—that the charges would be more specific than merely to say that there had been favoritism—that the chief surveyor gave a contract because the party to whom it was given had purchased his (the chief surveyor’s) plant. This was a most important question, and he hoped that it would be fairly entered upon. It being eight o’clock, on the motion of Mr PILLIET, the orders of the day were postponed until this debate was concluded. Hon G. Buckley said that the hon member was mistaken as to his having brought charges ; they were made by the Provincial Solicitor. It was true he wrote a letter to the Government respecting a contract survey and all he got was an answer from the Government acknowledging its receipt. His (Mr Buckley’s) letter was handed over the chief surveyor, and it was hawked about the district, much to his (Mr Buckley’s) detriment. That was all he did, he never brought a charge against the chief surveyor. Mr Perry defended the chief surveyor from the charges which had been made against him. He (Mr Perry) was of opinion that the alleged charges when fairly investigated would be found to be without foundation. Mr Pilliet said the charges were more those of omission than of actual commission.

Mr Andrews said he did not intend to detain the House, but he wished to record his opinion, which was the same as it had ever been. When the matter was discussed last Session, the Government undertook to inquire into it. Now the late Government came forward to defend the department into whose conduct they undertook to enquire. He did not think this was a proper course to pursue. It was absurd to get an official to make a report about abuses in his own department. The report in question showed that the chief surveyor was only a “ prentice hand” who was asking for a further trial on conditions of better behaviour. He observed on the estimates £3OO for the Cass pension—a pension for what 1 He would at the proper time divide the committee on the subject. The amendment was put and negatived on the voices. Mr Jebson moved that all the words after “ and” be struck out for the purpose of adding the words “ should be inquired into by a special commission during the recess.” The Provincial Solicitor contended that the Government were perfectly competent to make the enquiry. He disapproved of the appointment of a commission, which was a most expensive affair, and he would in proof instance the commission on theßakaia bridge which had cost £IOO.

Mr W. B. Tosswill said that in his opinion a commission should be appointed notwithstanding what had been said by the Provincial Solicitor. A fair and full investigation should be instituted after the charges made against the honor of the head of a department. Mr R Turnbull said he was prepared to state his charges if a commission were appointed. He charged the survey department with incorrectness of maps and records, and other inaccuracies. Mr Parker would like to know what course the Government proposed to adopt after the amendment they had proposed being negatived on the voices. The Government were bound to defend the honor of their servants, and he should be sorry to see the resolution passed in its present form, because it would be casting censure on a gentlemen who had had no opportunity of defending himseif. He thought that the charges made against the chief surveyor had not been put in a fair light, and he would ask the Government to protect an officer who had not had an opportunity of defending himself, by voting against the resolution. The Provincial Secretary said he would suggest that the resolution should be withdrawn, on the understanding that a Commission should be appointed during the recess. If this were not done, the Government would vote against the resolution. Mr R. Turnbull said upon that understanding he would withdraw the resolution. Mr Jebson said he also would withdraw the amendment. Leave being given, both amendment and resolution were withdrawn. / [CANTERBURY SHEEP ORDINANCE, 1872. AMENDMENT ORDINANCE, 1875. On the motion of Mr Harper, this Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow. COMMITTEE OP SUPPLY. The House resolved itself into committee of supply, when the following items were voted : —Surveys, £34,639 10s ; Cass pension, £4OO ; public plantations, £1200; Provincial Government works, £4365 ; subsidies to ferries, £475 ; building and work, Lyttelton gaol, £3600 ; gaol, Addington, £5080; hospital, Christchurch, £SIOO ; casual ward, Lyttelton, £250 ; industrial school, £SO ; lunatic asylum, £8157 ; drunkards’ asylum, £3OO ; Supreme Court, £I2OO ; orphan asylum, £1000; school buildings, £53,974; Normal school, £3OOO. Mr J. N. Tosswill asked whether the Government intended to put any sum on the estimates for fittings, furniture, and offices for the Normal school. Mr Montgomery inquired what the Government intended to do with the Normal school. It must jbe used as a school, as it was not fitted for a college and public library, The Secretary for Public Works sa d that the Government had not yet quite made up their minds on the matter. They would take a vote on it and then when the Education Bill was further advanced, they would come to a decision on the matter. The item was agreed to. Public Buildings, £14,540. In reply to Mr W. B. Tosswill, the Secretary for Public Works said that the Government would have no objection to have this item reduced, or struck out altogether. The item was struck out on the voices. Museum, £13,624 10s lid. In reply to Mr R. Turnbull, the Secretary for Public Works said the Government would have no objection to see this vote struck out, on the ground that the that the money could be expended on more important works. The committee divided on this item— Ayes 9 Noes 22

The item was struck out accordingly. College £BOOO. Mr Parker said that probably if the House rejected this item it would enable the Government to solv.e the doubt which existed in their minds respecting the Normal School, whether it was to be turned into a College or not. Hon G. Buckley said that the Government wished the item to be voted. Of course, if it were not required, it would not be appropriated. If the Government took the Normal school for a College, they would only take one wing, leaving the othei for a cistrict school for Christchurch. Mr J. N. Tosswill did not think the Normal school was at all fitted for a College. He did not think that a College and school would work at all well together. The Provincial Solicitor said that he thought the building of a Normal school unnecessary for years to come, inasmuch as they would have all the elements of a Normal school in the large district schools of the province. Personally, he should not be sorry to see the item struck out, because he thought that for some years, a portion of the Normal schodl could be used for College purposes, and when the time came for better provision for collegiate purposes to be made, it could be made out of the revenues which would arise from the rich reserves that had been set aside for the purpose. Mr Montgomery pointed out that the Normal school building was required as a large school for children at which persons could acquire the art of teaching. After some further discussion, Mr Andrews expressed a hope that the Board of College Governors would be swept away. He contended that through the action of the Board the Adulteration of Food Ordinance was rendered null and void by the high scale of fees which the Board of Governors had fixed for chemical analysis of articles to be tested under that Act. A motion of Mr Jebson to report progress was negatived on the voices. The committee divided on the item. Ayes 14 Noes 16 The item was therefore struck out. The announcement of the result of the division was received with cheers. Chemists’ laboratory and lecture room, £2850. After a slight discussion, the item was agreed to. Police buildings and cottage to powder magazine at Lyttelton, £7098 I9s 3d. Mr Andrews moved—“ That the sum be reduced by £BSO for police buildings at Little River. After some discussion, Mr Buchanan pointed out the necessity for a police station at Little River. It was only last week that the Road Board office had been broken into. The item was agreed to. Additions, fittings, &c, and Female Refuge —£3906. The Chairman reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again. Notices of motion having been given, the House adjourned to 3 p.m. this day.