PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Globe, Volume III, Issue 293, 20 May 1875, Page 3

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

— Wednesday, May 19, PETITIONS. Mr Pilliet presented a petition from a number of residents in OVain’s Bay, praying that a sum of money should be voted for the erection of a wharf at Okain’a Bay. The petition was read and received. REPORT OE SELECT COMMITTEE. Mr Jebson brought up the following report on the case of Mr H. N. Nalder. “ Report of the committee appointed to enquire into the matters contained in the petition of E. N. Nalder, of Lyttelton, solicitor. The committee recommend that the sum of seventy pounds (£7O) should be paid to the petitioner as compensation.— John Jebson, chairman,” SCAB COMMITTEE. On the motion of Mr Bluett, this committee was discharged. PRIVILEGE, Mr Jebson said he rose to speak to a question of privilege, and also to make a request through the Speaker to the House. The House would no doubt see what had taken place in the Council on the previous evening, and he had to ask that the motion No 11, moved by the hon member for Christchurch, take precedence of the other motions. Dr Turnbull seconded the motion, which was agreed to. PAPERS. The Secretary for Public Works laid a number of papers on the table. LYTTELTON AND CHRISTCHURCH RAILWAY. Mr Webb asked the Secretary for Public Works whether he could inform him how many passengers passed over the Lyttelton and Christchurch Railway on New Year’s Day, and the amount of fares received therefrom ? The Secretary eoe Public Works replied that the number of persona travel ling over the line on the day named wao 1262, and the amount received for fares £239 10s. INSPECTORS OB’ WEIGHTS AND MEASURES. Dr Rayner asked the Government if it is their intention to appoint an Inspector of Weights and Measures for the South Canterbury district, and if so when ? The Provincial Secretary said he was not prepared to answer the question that day. The hon member had better put the notice on the order paper for next day. HOLMES AND CO’S CLAIMS. Mr Bluett asked the Provincial Secretary what steps the Government intend to take respecting the claims of Messrs Holmes and Co. The Provincial Secretary said that the Government did not intend to take any further steps in the matter. The Government had considered that any steps which might be taken should come from Messrs Holmes and Co. THE RAILWAY. Mr W. White asked the Secretary of Public Works if he is aware that secondclass passengers are allowed to travel in first-class carriages on the Canterbury Railways on Saturdays, to the annoyance and inconvenience of first-class passengers, when many of the second-class carriages were empty at the time. The Secretary for Public Works read the following memo from the traffic manager on the subject: —“ Traffic Manager’s Office, May 19th, Sir —I am not aware that second-class passengers are allowed to travel in first-class carriages on Saturdays, nor do I think that Mr White can substantiate his [ statement beyond any exceptional case, such 1 as described in the enclosed letter from Mr

Hesketh. Nothing of this kind has ever come under my notice, and I have not before had any complaints. I have issued special instructions cautioning the guards against anything or this kind, and this is all lean do ; unless Mi' White is prepared to name any particular case for investigation.—John Lawson, Traffic Manager. The Secretary for Public Works.”

“ Christchurch Station, May 19th. Memo, for Traffic Manager. Sir, —Leaving Christchurch station, first and second class passengers go into the same class they are booked for. I may say that there Is onlyone day in the week that a second class passenger would have the slightest chance of going into a first class carriage, and that would only be to save the person being left behind at a roadside station. On Saturdays our carriages are all crammed full besides the waggons we have seated and use for carriages. T do not know of one case of a second class passenger going into a first class carriage leaving Christchurch. H. HesKETH, station master.” It was a pity that these complaints were not made in the proper quarter, when they would be remedied. privilege. Dr Turnbull moved—“ That it be an instruction to the committee appointed ilth May, 1875, No G Notice Paper, Ac, Mr Jebson mover, to procure an office copy of a deed registered ?n the Deeds Registry as No 18,849, to consider a report upon the facts mentioned in the said deed; and further, to attach the said office copy to its report when brought up for presentation to the Council.” lie might as well state the purport of the motion, which was this. The lion member for Rakaia moved -or a committee on the 6th May, when he (Dr Turnbull; suggested that the other representative of the district should be placed ou the committee. On the next day several persons waited upon him, and the Information then supplied to him he undertook to bring it before the House. The Government had suggested to the hon member for the Eakaiathat it would be better for him to refer the matter to a committee of three. It was thus unconsciously that the hon member for the Rakaia was drawn into being a member of a committee enquiring upon his own land. If the matter were referred to the full number of committees in that House, viz, seven, there would be a fair opportunity of having the matter enquired into. The House must recollect that it was not only a matter of money, but that it interfered with the Survey ami Waste Lands Department. The hon member for the Rakaia sitting as chairman of the committee enquiring into a section of land in which he had a money interest, placed the members of that committee in a very peculiar position. Of course there was no doubt that he (Dr Turnbull) was bound to show the House some reason why the motion he had moved should be carried, and that the documents he produced fully bore out and justified him (Dr Turnbull) in objecting to the hon member for the Rakaia taking his seat at that committee. In pursuance of his duty as a member of that House he (Dr Turnbull) had brought the matter before the committee because it might have been done by the hon member for the Rakaia as a new member without being aware of the consequences, and that the honor of the Council and the committee would be at stake outside. Of course if the hon member for the Bakaia proved that he did not occupy the position the evidence given to him (Dr Turnbull) proved him to occupy,, he was quite ready to apologise to that hon member and to the House. [Hear, hear.J Mr Jbbson said that he v T as perfectly ignorant of what the hou member for Christchurch was driving at. He had spoken of the deed, but he had not told the House what this deed was, by whom executed, and what interest it conferred upon him. He (Mr Jebsou) might say that he, as a member of that House, had always kept in his mind three things, via—firstly, veracity; secondly, honesty of purpose ; and thirdly, honor; that nice sense of honor which would not allow of the slightest imputation being cast upon his character. If the hon member for Christchurch had come to him (Mr Jebsou) and asked information from him, he might, had he felt himself in a false position, apologised to the House and retired from the position ho held as a chairman of the Select Committee. This was vhat he should have done, instead of bringing him publicly before, not only the province, but also the outside portion of the colony. He had received an intimation on Tuesday last that he had better look to bis position as a member of that House. This, however, was a peculiar way of eliciting information, and not one such as the hon member should have adopted. With regard to the document spoken of by the hon member for Christchurch, he Jcbson) denied at once that there was any document in existence which would show that he held any monetary interest in. the sections of rural lands referred to in the notice paper. If this document were in existence then the hon member for Christchurch had not done his duty by omitting to bring forwardthedocumentandgive the House the chapter and verse of it. [Hear, hear.] Tne position of the bon member for Christchurch, if matters came to be looked into, was far more precarious than his (Mr Jebson’s), because be had since he took his seat, received an honorarium of £SO for acting as surgeon to the hospital. [Laughter and hear, hear.] Would he say that he intended to receive this in the future ? If this was so, then he contended that the hon member for Christchurch had no right under The Limitation of Patronage Act, to hold his seat in that House—[Hear, hear] —but that he should, as he (Mr Jebson) would do, resign his seat. The fact was, that the burden of proof of this matter rested with the hon member for Christchurch, and all that he (Mr Jebson) would do. was to give a flat denial to the assertions of the bon member for Christchiucb, and defy him to prove his position. [Hear, hear.] Mr Wynn Williams desired to say at once that there was not the slightest instigation on the part of the Government to the lion member for the Rakaia to move for the Select Committee. Mr W. B, Tosswill wished to know whether this ’was the same question as to land which had come before a committee some twelve months previously. The Provincial Secretary said that this was not the same section. The committee referred to by the hon member for Riccarton was one on the general conduct of the surveys. Mr Bluett said he hoped the hon member for Christchurch would in his reply lay a little more information before the Council before they were asked to vote upon the question. [Hear, hear.J Dr Turnbull in reply said that the matter now narrowed iUdf down to a dues*

Hon of proof as to the documents. Now the deed he had referred to was registered in the Deed 1 ; Registry as No 18,349, being a lease executed in ISG6 from I. B. dheath to John Jett-on. from which an extract had been taken. This certified copy of an extract showed a direct money interest in the hon member for Rakaia, and it did not matter whether it was for one shilling value or for hundreds of pounds. He (Dr Turnbull) was not aware that there was any deed annulling this, but he might say that he would only be too willing to assist the hon member for Rakaia to make the matter clear to the House, as it was a matter of very great importance that this matter should be cleared up, affecting as it did the honor of the House. Mr Jebson, by permission of the House, stated fhat three years ago he had surrendered the power held under the deed recited by the hon member for Christchurch. Messrs Hanmer and Harper had been the solicitors for the mortgagee, and Messrs Garrick and Cowlishaw had acted for him (Mr Jebson). He now said, as he had stated before, that he had not the remotest interest in the sections mentioned on the noli >,e paper. The surrender legally executed by the parties was he thought sufficient proof that the matter was at an end. He could only say that the hon member for Christchurch ought bethought to have taken more pains to acquire information on tbic subject before he had dragged him (Mr Jebson) before that Council aud the province. Either toe hon member had been misled or he had wilfully attacked him (Mr Jebson) without cause. [Hear, hear.J The motion was then put and negatived on the voices. CASE OF JOHN GLYNAN. Mr PILLIETT moved—“ That the Provincial Secretary be requested to place before the Council the result of the inquiry, promised last year, into the case of John Glynan, tc alleged wrongful survey of section No 4140, near Akarca.” The Provincial Secretary said that there was no record in the office of such an enquiry having been made. He could therefore not give any information on the subject as asked for by the hon member. Mr Montgomery said that after enquiry it was found that the grievance consisted in the claimant not having had his boundary line laid down. The Government considered that it was a matter for the person from whom he purchased to furnish a boundary line. The repty had unfortunately not been sent tc the claimant, but it had been forgotten. He might say, however, that he had been informed verbally of the result of the enquiry. The motion was agreed to. surveys. The following notice of motion by Mr R. Turnbull stood over till Tuesday—“ That in the opinion of this Council the manner in which the survey department is conducted is most unsatisfactory, and requires the immediate attention of the Government. ALIENATION OF RAILWAYS, &C. Mr J BBSON obtained leave to postpone the following motion -•“ That in the opinion of this Council no steps should be taken or negociationn entered into by the Government, for the d'sposal or alienation of harbors, railways, works, and other properly belonging the province, without first consulting this Council and obtaining Its consent to the sa«e.” RAKAIA GORGE BRIDGE. Mr W. White moved— 1 “ That a respectful address be presented tc his Honor the Superintendent, requesting him to place on the supplementary eedmatea a sum of money sufficient to erect a bridge across the Rakaia at the Gorge.” Mr Jebson seconded the motion. The Secretary for Public Works said that the Government could not see their way clear to agree to the motion proposed by the hon member. The Government would undertake to lay the matter before the Provincial Engineer with aviewof seeiugif alight bridge could Jiot be erected for the sum of JB4OOO. If this could be done, the Government would put the sum on the supplementary estimates. He hoped, therefore, on this understanding, the hon member would withdraw the motion. Mr White said, under these circumstances, he would withdraw the motion. The motion was withdrawn by leave. SHEEP ORDINANCE, 1875. Mr Wynn Williams moved—“Thatthe Sheep Ordinance, 1875, be referred to a Select Committee, to consist of the following members :—Messrs Gray, Buckley, Bluett, Teschemaker, W. C. Walker, Westenra, and the mover, with power to call for persons and papers, and to report on Tuesday next.” Mr Dixon moved as an amendment—- “ That the House ballot for the committee.” The amendment war, agreed to, and the following members appointed on the ballot; —Messrs Gray, Walker, Buckley, Bluett, Teschemaker, Westenra, and the mover, contingencies. Mr Gray moved—“ That there be laid on the table a detailed account, from January Ist, 1874, up to the present time, of the expenditure of ouch sums of money as have been voted without specific object, for miscellaneous, contingency, and incidental purposes, omitting the information already laid on the table under the head of general contingencies.” The motion was agreed to. THE EDUCATION BILL. The debate on this Bill was resumed by Mr R. Turnbull, who said that he believed in a very short time the General Government would step in and make one system rale throughout the length and breadth of the land. Regarding the appointment of a secretary for education, the hon member for Heathcote had said that there was no reason for the change, but he thought that those who found the funds should have a control over the expenditure. Now the fact was that under the present system this did not obtain. The Council voted some £200,000, but there was, as hon members knew, very little information on the subject given to the House; if, however, the Government took up the matter, this would not be the case, If the secretary of education was appointed, the department would be more directly under the control of the House. He regretted that the hon member for Heathcote, a gentleman of vast experience, one entirely above suspicion himself, should have made such a statement as to influence members as he had done last evening. The fact was that the Secretary for Education would not have nearly so much influence as the chairman of the Board, and he therefore would support the Bill as it stood. There had been a great deal made of the question of class against class, but he ( Mr Turnbull) did nob sec that thhi should be imported, -nto it at

all. There was one provision which wanted to be enforced, and that was that some compulsion should be exercised to ensure children to attend school at least three days in the week. This was what he should like to see, and he did not think that to ask the people to contribute the sum of one-sixth of the sums necessary to erect and maintain schools would be too much. The great struggle which j would lake place between property and the people would be when the great changes which were looming in the distance came upon them, and found them unprepared. This was why he supported the present Bill. He was sorry to see that the Government had altered their views as to the contribution to the cost, because the Board had, he thought, been influenced in their expenditure by the somewhat extravagant demands made upon them. They had large reserves which every year were becoming more valuable, and these he thought should be used for erecting schools, where it was found necessary to erect them. [Hear, hear.] He should support the Bill. Mr Walker differed with the late speaker (the hon member for Seadown) in that he believed that the Government were right in altering their views astothecontributions. He might say that he did not believe the Board were so much to blame for the expenditure of money as the Ordinance itself. Let any one cast their mind back, and they would see that the people themselves were of one mind that education should be carried out to the utmost limit. Therefore it was that no Board could exercise any control over the expenditure. He believed, however, that the difficulty of separating old and new districts would have been fatal to the Bill, if the Government bad continued it as at first, because they need not go further than East and West Christchurch for an illustration ; one of which had gone so much ahead of the other. Hence it would be unfair and impossible to have applied the principle which at first was contained in the Bill. Therefore he was glad to see that the Government had altered their proposals. He agreed with the hon member for Lincoln that the province owed a great deal to the Board and to the chairmen of it; but still he believed that the change now proposed was a wise one. [Hear, hear.) There seemed to be some suspicion in the minds of hon members at having a Secretary for Education directly under the control of the Government, but he would point out that this was being done in a much larger department—that of the railway—and therefore he said the Government had done wisely in bringing education more directly under the supervision of the Government. At home it was notable that the poor laws and others were administered in this way, and with success, and he believed if they had a hardworking official he would do quite as much good work as the chairman sitting at the head of the Board. Besides this the Bill was framed on the principle that burdens should be increased gradually. He should like to see the compulsory system introduced, and the Government placed in a position to compel the attendance of the children. Until this was done he considered that there was still much to do in the work of education of the province. [Hear, hear.l The hon member for Christchurch (Dr Turnbull) had said that it was necessary to have a loan for building schools, so that posterity might help to pay for them, but he pointed out that during the past three years the province had paid some £200,000 out of the land fund of the province for this purpose. Iu this way he thought that they were taxing posterity as much as those now resident, because the land revenue belonged as much to posterity 1 as to those now here. [Hear, hear] When the system was under the control of the Government, he hoped to see some more details ! ' given on the subject of finance. At present V the sums were voted in a lump, and scarcely any details were given to the members. As regarded the old subject of religious education. he noticed that the present Bill left it as it was in the old one, that was that the religious edun 1 cation to be given rested entirely with the • ' committees. He did not think that this was as it should be, but he contended that they ■ ought to allow persons whose duty it was to give religious instruction, to enter ’ their schools, and thus do away with the bitter religions stiife which took place on every election to fill up vacancies. The committees had no power to regulate other branches of instruction, and why should they be allowed to have the power to shut out this, which was considered by some people one of the great essentials of the system of education. It had been said that the people had not expressed a wish for this change, but if the Council were of opinion that it was necessary it was their duty to put in the provision. He need only refer to the words of Mr Justice Williams at the recent session of the Supreme Court, as to the necessity of moral education, and the only way to give this moral education would be to put it out of the power of contentious committees to exclude ministers of religion. If this were not done the Council would not be doing its vi-mi duty. In committee he should move an alteration in the clause to that effect. [Hear, hear.] Mr KNIGHT said it had been stated that Lyttelton had not contributed anything to y’' the cost of its schools, but he desired to point out that a piece of public property, valued at £ISOO, had been taken over by the Board of Education, so that really Lyttelton had contributed more than one-sixth of the , 'cost of their schools. In the cases of Timaru f and Kaiapoi also contributions had been received; as regarded the latter, a rate to I’' 10 produce £4OO had been struck, but it had 0 Ui been found not to be sufficient, and Kaiapoi would no doubt be called upon to contribute the deficit. As regarded the general prin- ’ ciple of the Bill, he might say that he 11 thought it had done its work. It had been 1 y ;t appointed to carry out and establish anew system, which it had done, and done well, and he felt that the thanks of the country were due to the first chairmen of the Board. [Hear, hear.] Now, however, the expenditure had greatly increased, and he felt that : it was high time that a more complete system vif tigj 1 responsibility should be carried out. Now the expenditure was over £BO,OOO ""“ pier ahirtm, and it was too much to place in ! 1 the hands of an irresponsible Board. [Hear, ' llj ‘ ; 'hear.l He wished, however, to know wheC 11 therthe Secretary for Education would have any more power than the present secretary. “ J ‘ ,At present it looked very much as if it was to be so. He (Mr Knight) had proposed a political head of this department—a secre .tairy,. Who should have a seat on tho=" , ' benches, and be responsible directly to the *■' A "’ House and the country. But it was objected L ; ” ‘ bjr'the members of the present Government ‘that the appointment of a political head was inadvisable ; but they proposed now to have ” Apolitical Board. If xt was wrong to have

a political head, it was quite as wrong to have a political Board. If they felt that a political head by reason of the changes of party was inadvisable for education, how much more was it with regard to the public works ? In the one case the Secretary for Education would master the details of his office in a week, whereas the Secretary for Public Works would not do it in a month. [ Hear, hear.] He was very sorry to see that the Government intended to keep committees in the Bill because he saw that committees were of no use whatever. [Hear, hear.] In fact, the real reason why the Board had spent so much money was solely on account of the demands of the committees. The local committees had no power, and no powers were conferred on them by this Bill, The house tax and poll tax was paid over to them, and they had the pleasure of holding them until they were called upon to pay them over. They had not the slightest power, but at the same time they took power into their hands. One committee had taken power to have an overdraft of £ISOO, and the Government had had to vote a sum of money to get the committee out of the fix. [A Voice —“ Name.”] The committee he referred to was Timaru. Was it not monstrous that committees should take power like this. In another case an application had been made for a sum to pay a secretary to one of these committees, but the chairman had told him that he intended to pay it out of the rates despite the veto of the Board. [A VOICE “ Name.”] He would not name it. Again, it waa said that the people should have a (voice, but was it not a faet that they had nothing of the kind, and that the best men were not on these committees. On one committee he knew of, there was no member of it able to correspond with the Board. Therefore, he said, it was quite time that these committees were done away with, and instead of them commissioners or inspectors appointed, who might make periodical reports. This would tend to economy, and put down useless ornamentation, which they were not prepared to afford. As a proof of what he had said, as to the constitution of these committees, he bad had a paper put in his hand of the constitution of a committee on the Peninsula, out of seven members six could not read nor write, and the seventh could read. [Laughter,] As regarded the proposal to raise the funds for the erection and maintenance of these schools, he might say that the present system was essentially a bad one. He might say that he fully agreed with the increase of the poll tax ; but it was not far enough, as he would like to see it increased to £1 per head, or 4£d per week, which he did not think would be too much. He knew many laboring men who did not use the Government schools, but sent their children to private schools. Therefore he said it was not fair that these persons should contribute to the education of their neighbor’s children. Let the schools stand on their own bottom, and let those persons who wanted to use them do so, the charge being a fair one, and those who did not like to do so might send their children elsewhere. As to the matter of education, he thought the country was bound to see the children taught the three R’s, and nothing more. Anything beyond that he said the parents should pay for, not the State, [Hear, hear.] All they were bound to see imparted was a good sound English education. As regarded the standard for teachers he might say that he thought they might go too far in this direction. As he had given a pledge to his constituents that he would see the Bill as perfect as possible he should try to do so, Hon G. Buckley said that the principal opposition to the Bill was based on the change proposed to be made in the appointment of the Secretary for Education. Singularly enough this complaint came from members of the Board itself, and he thought that the Board were fairly chargeable with extravagance. Let any hon member look at the East Christchurch school. He contended that a building could be put up like that for less money, and containing 50 per cent more children. This was not the fault of the committee, but the Board, who had ample power to curtail the requirements of the committees. In this school he might say that in a very few years a large expenditure of money would be required for repairs. This was the case, he believed, with many other schools, Again, he considered that the present system of collecting the rates was most objectionable, and that the Board had quite ignored anything in this direction. There was another matter also which the Board had ignored, and that was the very large number of children in the outlying districts who were not receiving education at all. He (Mr Buckley) had brought this matter under the notice of the Government, and had been told that the Board of Education were considering it, but nothing had been done, and the same had been the case as regarded the education of Maori children. He regretted very much that the hon member for Heathcote should have referred to the opinions held by the hon Provincial Secretary in language such as he had done on the preceding evening. He (Mr Buckley) was sorry to hear such remarks, because they were uncalled for and quite out of place, [Hear, hear.] He never, he must say, heard such a charge made against a member of the House and the Government before, and he regretted it very much. [Hear, hear.] As regarded the buildings, he might say he agreed with the permanent buildings being put up out of loan, because it would fall far more evenly on all classes of the community. [Hear, hear.] He thought that the Board had acted very wrongly in taking the site of the Lyttelton schools as they had done, as he regarded it as a fraud, and one quite opposed to the spirit of the Ordinance. Beyond this it was unfair to other districts, who had a perfect right to claim the same privilege. He thought the objections made by hon members to the alteration from the Board to a secretary, merely referred to one member of the Executive. In Otago, the members of the Executive sat as members of the Board, and he might say that the system of education there was quite as good as ours, and the cost infinitely less. | Cheers.] Mr Harper said as regarded the change from the Board of Education to a secretary he quite agraed with it, but he might say that he should like to see a political secre tary. He would like to see the hon member for Waimate (Hon G. Buckley) take the office of Minister for Education, He sat there with out a portfolio, and he thought it would b( a good thing for the country if he did so ; besides it would not necessitate an increast in the number of the Executive. He should be prepared to vote for the doing away with the household tax, as he felt sure that a pronerty tax would be far better, and would hi more generally received throughout the pro rince. Property, he felt, should contribute

as much fur this as any jther part of He system of Government. He hoped when tin Bill came out of committee, the local committees would be swept away, as they wore perfectly useless, and the inspectors would do the work infinitely better than the commiltees. Regarding the matter of religions instruction, he hoped to see the schools thoroughly open to all denominations. Mr Andrews would desire to remind hon members that at the time the Ordinance passed he had called attention to the fact that a nominated Board would prove the bugbear to the Ordinance being a success. In this he was quite right as it had turned out, because this was just the point where it had failed. Another thing was that he noticed all the members of the Board had opposed the change ; this, of course, was not to be wondered at, because the members of the Board of Education did not like to be removed from the position of domineering over the school committees. [Laughter.] Hon members had called attention to the constitution of these committees, but he (Mr Andrews was not surprised at this, because there was no power given to them ; they were simply dummies, and therefore what was the use of good men going on to them. He should be prepared to support the second reading of the Bill and its committal, when they might make it a presentable Bill. [Hear, hear.J Hon members had said they had no poor, but whom was the sum of £7OOO put on for charitable aid going to be given to. This did not look like no poor, and he said that to say there was no poor was a wild and extravagant expression, The great blot on the system was that they gave the expenditure of money on education to those who had no interest in it. Why could not the Council vote a certain sum of money to each district for education, like the Road Boards, and let the local committees allocate it, [“No, no.”] Well, would hon members from the country districts like to see their Road Board grants allocated by a nominated Board sitting in Christchurch. He did not think while he said this that the Education Ordinance had had a fair trial. He might say that he should not offer any factious opposition, but he should oppose any nominated Board whatever. On the estimates for the present year they were asked to vote £BO,OOO, and last year £90,000 was passed, marking a total of £170,000 for education in two years. If they settled down to work he thought it was very likely they would bring out a very excellent Ordinance. Another question was that of religious instruction, but he must emphatically say that school duties should not be interfered with in any way, nor should any committee be allowed to let a minister of religion into the school between the prescribed school hours. He was in favor of a Minister for Education, which would be far better than a secretary. With a Minister for Education and a Minister for Railways he felt sure that they would find matters in both departments very much better managed, Mr Joynt said that he was of opinion that the Government had not shown any reason why the Board of Education should be dispensed with. He thought the Government should have been prepared to have stated that the Board had failed in carrying out the system, but he was surprised to find that the hon Provincial Solicitor had gone so far in his encomium on the Board, at the same time that he proposed to sweep them away and substitute a Secretary of Education. He had said that if they had gone too far, they had done so in the right direction, which was somewhat problematical. The Government, he pointed out, had not given any assurance that the proposals of the Government would result in a better system, or one more economical. They were told that large sums had been expended, but to justify them in sweeping away a Board which had been so useful, they ought to be shown that the system proposed to be introduced was more economical or effective. They were told by the hon member for W aimate (Hon G, Buckley) that the Board of Education were to give way to a permanent head of department. He said that this was absurd ; the real fact was that the head of this department would be a shifting Executive. That was clearly seen in the Act itself. The fourth section said that the department was to be administered by a Secretary for Education. That was all that they were told; but if they went further they saw that no administrative power was given to him. In fact it was a delusive appointment, and should never be put in the Bill, The other clauses clearly pointed out that the administrative portion of the work would be done by the Executive Council. The Superintendent was to do all; that was the Executive Council for the time being. It was not vested at all in the officer proposed to be appointed. Now what had they got in substitution for the Board of Education. Not a permanent head of department such as the last member of the Government who had spoken wished them to believe, but a political body, shifting with a change of Government. The hon member who had introduced the Bill had objected to a political head, because he would be liable to be removed with each change, but what was their proposal ? Simply that the administration should be handed over to a political Executive likely to be removed at any time by a change of Government. So far as the irresponsibility of the Board of Education, the Road Boards had no responsibility. They got the money and they spent it arbitrarily. They could not spend more than they got, no more could the Board of Education, if the auditor did his duty. He said that it had not been shown that the Board of Education, though an irresponsible body, had spent money illegally or extravagantly. So far as he was concerned, he felt that it would be far better if a Minister for Education were appointed, as the department was quite important enough to be administered under a separate head. Therefore he said that there was no no reason adduced why they should sweep away the Board of Education by what had been advanced by the Government. Now a word as regarded extravagance. It must be recollected that though a large sum of money had been expended, it was simply owing to the fact that they had had all the very large borough schools and many of Ihe district schools to build. Therefore, it was not fair to the Board of Education to take this amount as the normal expenditure of the department. Besides the increase to the population had been very large, and therefore it had resulted in an unprecedentedly large expenditure for the establishment of schools. This was now got over to a large extent, and all that they had now to look to was the maintenance of schools. The only reduction that could be made was in the salaries of masters and mistresses, and he felt sure that the Council

would never consent to lower these salaries, which were at present as low as they well could be. He now came to the financial proposals of the Government, and he was sorry to say that the Bill would mislead, and it had done so in the case of many hon members, as regarded the contributions of the districts for the coat of building and land. The condition for the Government grant was that one-half of the whole cost should be provided by the district before receiving it. They were told that the Govern' ment did not intend to bring that into effect until the end of the present financial period. He had been told that the Government intended to bring this clause down so as to incorporate it in the Bill. Hon members had thanked the Government for their having brought down this alteration; but it appeared to him that nothing could be more unfortunate than this proposed alteration. He himself was in the position of fighting against this part of the Bill alone, because none of the hon members who had spoken had touched upon the fact that the Government had not withdrawn this proposition, but had simply held it over till the end of the present financial period. But would the Government say that the districts could pay this? Would the Is rate produce it? It had been found that it was not able to produce the one-sixth Even the hon member who had brought in this Bill had said that this Is rate was too much to produce the one-sixth. How then did the Government expect it to produce the one-half ? Why, it was simply ridiculous, and the effect would be that the course of education would be retarded. Had hon m< m« bers thought over this matter, there would have been many voices raised against it. As regarded the increase of the poll tax some hon members objected to it, because it was too much, while the hon member for Lincoln (Mr Knight) wished to see it go further, and increase it to £1 per head. Now he (Mr Joynt) knew that there was a great deal of respectable genteel poverty, and no one could fail to see that this was the case, and that it was daily increasing. It was all very well for country members to say there was no poverty in the country, and say that there was no reason why a man should not pay just as much as one liked to ask them ; but he (Mr Joynt) knew that many could not pay the tax now. When the tax man went round for the £1 tax he knew it was not there. Supposing that the tax had to be pressed for, it would render it most distasteful. [’Hear, hear.J Hon members knew that there was a large section of the people, uneducated themselves, who only wished that they might be allowed to educate their children or not, just as they liked. The real fact was that the proposition of the Government was one of retrogression not of progression, because the result would be to render the system distasteful to the people. [Hear, hear.] They had nationalised their system, and brought home to the door of every parent the education of his children for the benefit of the country, not alone for the individual. If they made it compulsory they must make it comparatively free, and bring the fees down to the lowest. Well, the result had been that the system had been a great success, so much so that the hon member who had introduced the Bill had said that it was unexpected. To popularise and extend the system they should keep the fees as low as possible, and therefore to increase it would be to injure the system of national education. As regarded the household rate, he saw it was retained in the new Bill, and therefore he need not say much about it. As regarded the dual rate, he might say he considered that it was unfair to charge a man for more than one district, because a man might have five or six factories or tenements coming under the provisions of the interpretation clause. He might say he hoped the local committees would not be swept away. He was very sorry to find that the hon member for Waimatehad referred to a question which had taken place between the hon member for Heathcote and the Provincial Secretary, because he contended that the words so used did not in any way impugn the personal honor of the Provincial Secretary. The report appearing in the Lyttelton Times, which was a verbatim report of what the hon gentleman had said—[Hear, hear, from Mr Montgomery]—was as follows :—“ I am quite sure that the present Provincial Secretary would do nothing but what he would conceive to be conscientiously just and right ; but I cannot forget that he has been for years the steadfast opponent of the present system in this Council. I do not speak of any hon member’s private opinions, or of opinions privately expressed. I infer what a man will do from the words he utters, or which he has spoken politically, and I say that that hon gentleman (Mr Maskell) has shown in this House that he is the irreconcilable opponent of the present system of education. I would be very sorry to say one word which would reflect on his personal honor, but I say that in order to carry out any system, the person who has got the management of it should have his heart in it, but that if he only brings to it a cold, formal action, that system will not result in the success that we all hope to see the education system in this province assume.” That could not be said to have merited the very warm reply it called forth. He should oppose the second reading of the Bill, because the propositions contained in it were of such a character as to set the people of the province against the system, and therefore it was a retrogressive step. [ Hear, hear.] Besides this, he (Mr Joynt) contended that there was nothing before them to warrant them in sweeping away the present system, and replacing it with one which it was extremely problematical would work well at all, and which he could not but regard as not at all a system such as would supply the place of the one they now had. He therefore hoped to see the second reading of the Bill rejected. [Hear, hear.] Mr Jbbson failed to see what the last speaker had called evidences of retrogression in the Bill now before the House. There was no proposition to reduce the elements of education by a reduction of the branches taught, nor any proposition to reduce the amount'of money proposed to be expended Therefore, he said he failed to see any retrograde movement on the part of the present Government. What was proposed was that up to the end of the financial period the one-sixth would be raised throughout the province, and after that one-half as the contribution of the districts. Did the change come from the present Government to alter the system ? He said not; it was the Board of Education who proposed a property tax. The Government he thought had met that fairly by their proposal to raise one-half for repairs, &c ~ but that in new districts they only required the raising of one-sixth of the cost of building new schools, ice. Where

was the retrogression there? He failed to s e it. Again they were told that a p ro) erty tax of 3d in the £ would raise more than tue £1 house tax, but he failed to see that this was the case. He also failed to see the analogy sought to be drawn between the Board of Education and the Road Boards because the former could not supervise the expenditure in the districts. He would like to suggest that the house tax and po?l tax on children should be paid quarterly, so that it might come lighter upon those who were notin a positiontopaythe wholeamount. Th.s was done at home and he should like to see this carried out here. As regarded the increase of the poll tax, he might say that perhaps there was a class who might object to pay a sum of 10s for the education of their children, but his experience went quite the other way. The fact was that uneducated persons were only too ready to take advantage of the system now put within their reach. Therefore he felt sure that 2£d per week was a sum which no one in the province would object to pay for the education of his children. There had been a lament, a wail, but it had come from the members of the Board, the hon members for Lincoln, Heathcote, and Lyttelton. He (Mr Jebson) said that the Board of Education had done the best they could under the circumstances. But had their administration been such as was satisfactory to those who were in communication with them. In many instances there had been no quorum, and matters of great importance had been allowed to lay over from week to week and from month to month. He was, however, of opinion that the time had now come when the Board of Education should surrender their powers to another body. He should, therefore, support with slight modifications the second reading of the Bill, and he congratulated the Government on having had the courage in the interests of the province to propose the removal of the Board of Education. Whether it was a Secretary for Education or a Minister for Education the Government would have a thorough and complete control over the administration of the system and the expenditure of the funds voted by the Council. Dr Eayner said that he should support the Bill, and further than this, he was quite at one with those who were of opinion that the local committees should be swept away. As regarded the appointment of a Secretary or Minister for Education, he was quite in favor of it, but he said that an officer so appointed should not have a seat on the Government bench, because he held that the question of education should be kept free from political considerations. His opinion of the Board of Education was that they were nonentities. [Laughter.] With respect to what had been said by the hon member for Lincoln as to the payment of the secretary to the local committee, he might say he was the chairman alluded to, and he would pay it in despite of the Board of Education. [Laughter.] His experience of the Board of Education led him to believe that the sooner the Board of Education were got rid of the better. He would strongly support the Bill now before the House. Mr Bluett intended to support the Bill, because he believed the Government were moving in the right direction. He might say that he believed there had been great extravagance in the administration of the Board of Education, which was clearly proved by the remarks made by the hon member for Waimate (Hon G. Buckley). They found that £83,000 was expended last year in the education of the children of the province ; and when they looked at the fact that the whole population was only 70,000, the expenditure of £83,000 was preposterous. He quite agreed with doing away with school committees, because he believed them to be composed of men of narrow minds. He had heard that a schoolmaster who was very popular in the district and a good teacher, had been dismissed because his horse strayed into the paddock of a' member of the school committee. There was another point which he should like to see taken notice of, and that was the education of girls to household duties. Tt was only right that girls when they came to years of discretion should know how to govern a household. [Hear, hear.] As regarded the boys, he felt that all that was necessary was to give them a good English education—and not only that, but a really practical one, such as would fit them for occupying the land. This might be done by the establishment of an Agricultural College, the reserve for which he was sorry to see had been appropriated to some other purpose. He hoped the Government would look after this. As to the inspection of schools he was in favor of the appointment of a chief inspector, having sub-inspectors under him and the province divided into districts. As regarded the fees, he felt sure that no one would object to pay what was required On the motion of Sir Cracroft Wilson, the House adjourned for fifteen minutes. On resuming after the adjourn meat. Mr J. W. White (Timara) spoke in favor of the second reading of the Bill, but intimated hie intention of proposing amendments in committee, Mr Fisher was opposed to the doing away with the Board of Education at present. Ho thought it would be better to allow of the present system being retained for a longer period. He was of opinion that the committees had been unjustly accused, and be contended that the Colombo road school—one ot the best conducted in the colony—would not have been what it was had it not been for the work of the committee. He should oppose the Bill, Mr Jollib thought scant justice had been done to the Board of Education. He must say that he regretted that the proposed Bill contained a provision to increase the school fees to double the amount. He thought this was putting a bar in the way of progress in the matter of education. Mr Higgins opposed the second reading on the ground that it was impolitic to propose a radical change in the policy adopted for years without the people having an opportunity of knowing that it was to be done. He was in favor, if a change were made, of the appointment of a Minister of Education, but he also said that the time had not arrived for such a change to be made. He did not approve of the increase of the fees as proposed by the Bill. The Hon J. T. Peacock had not heard any serious objections to the Bill, because the of the discussion was to the effect that the Board had done its work and should be replaced by some other system. He contended that the local committees had been of great use, and had done good work. If they made the public pay for their education they should give them a voice in the administration of their schools. [“Question.”] Mr Wynn Williams, in reply, said the reason why the Government wished to institute a change to the office of a Secretary

for Education was that the Government thought they should have a larger amount of control over the expenditure of the enormous sums of money voted for education. He hoped the House would carry the second reading of this Bill, and when in committee hon members might introduce amendments and modifications. The question for the second reading of the Bill was then put and carried on the voices. The committal of the Bill was fixed for next sitting day. Notices of motion having been given, the House adjourned untill 6 p.m. this day.

And yet there are people living, who believe that there is nothing effective in a woman’s voice. A man in Mauch Chunk, Pa., had a talking match with his wife recently. At the expiration of the eighth hour he fell down exhausted. The wife stopped long enough in her garrulous symphony to bend over the fallen man and remark :—“ Poor fellow! he appears to have been overcome or something, before I got fairly started. I never did get a fair chance to speak my mind to him.”