PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Globe, Volume III, Issue 287, 13 May 1875, Page 2

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Wednesday, May 12. The Speaker took the chair at 5 p.m. PAPERS, The Secretary for Public Works laid several papers on the table. teachers’ salaries. Dr Rayner asked if it is the intention of the Government not to pay the teachers’ salaries monthly, but quarterly. Hon members who were members of school committees or who had been, knew very well the long delay in the payment of the salaries of teachers by the Board, and the serious inconveniences resulting therefrom in their domestic arrangements. It was but a short time since the Board altered their quarterly to monthly payments. Now the Government had expressed their intention of reverting to the quarterly payments. This had induced him (Dr Rayner) to ask the question, and he hoped the Government would insist that the schoolmasters should receive their salaries without any delay after quarter day. The Provincial Secretary said that the practice at present obtaining was to pay monies for school teachers’ salaries, &c, over to the Board of Education in advance, and this had been done with respect to the salaries due up to the 30th of June next. He was not aware that the delays referred to by the hon member had taken place ; however, the department of education would be, he hoped, more under the control of the Government in future, when care would be taken to obviate the evils complained of. BOARD OP EDUCATION ESTIMATES. Mr R. Turnbull asked the Government without notice whether the Government had received any estimates from the Board of hducation for the current year. The Secretary for Public Works said that the estimates referred to by the hon member had been sent up to the Government, and were on the table of the House. RAILWAY TO ASHLEY GORGE. Mr Higgins asked if the whole of the correspondence relating to the proposed railway to Ashley Gorge be now on the table. The Secretary for Public Works replied that so far as the Government were aware the whole of the correspondence was on the table. public health act. Mr Walker said he understood that the Provincial Secretary was not prepared to answer the following question to day, viz— If Government intend to take action towards the amendment of the Public Health Act, in the next session of the General Assembly, embodying amendments forwarded by local Boards of Health. He would therefore ask permission to make it an order of the day for next sitting day. SPECIAL GRANT TO CHRISTCHURCH. Dr Turnbull asked the Provincial Secretary if it is the intention of the Government to place on the supplementary estimates a special grant of money for Christchurch, or to propose that an endowment in land be made for the city. The Provincial Secretary replied that as regarded the first part of the question of the hon gentleman, the City of Christchurch would participate in the grant put down on the estimates for the Road Boards and municipalities. With regard to the second portion of the question, as to an endowment of land for Christchurch, he might say that the subject had been and still was under the consideration of the Government. DRAINAGE OP LAKE ELLESMERE. The motion standing in the name of Mr Bluett on this subject lapsed. AGRICULTURAL DISTRICT. Mr Walker moved—“ That the district contained in the undermentioned boundaries be proclaimed an Agricultural District under the provisions of The Trespass of Cattle Ordinance, 1869 :—Commencing at the beach at the Trig pole 45 on the north side of the mouth of Waikanui Creek, and extending in a right line running north-west to Trig pole 15 at I.P.R. fence on boundary between Kuns No 139 and No 98; thence by a right line crossing the Great South road, and extending north-west to Trig pole 12 on north side of the Ashburton road north, on run 124: thence by a right line to north-west boundary of Ashburton Road Board District at its intersection with the Ashburton road north; thence by the said north-west boundary to the south side of the south branch of the Ashburton river; thence following the south side of the said branch to the sea. The motion was agreed to. LEAVE OF ABSENCE, On the motion of the Hon G. Buckley leave of absence for one week was granted to the Hon E. Richardson. temuka domain. Dr Rayner moved—“ That the Government lay on the table all correspondence between the Temuka Park Commissioners, the Police and the Government, respecting a dividing fence between the Temuka Domain and Police Buildings.” The Provincial Secretary said that the Government would lay the correspondence on the table. The motion was put and agreed to on the voices. ROAD BOARD ADVANCES ORDINANCE. On the motion of the Provincial Secretary this Bill was introduced, read a first time and the second reading fixed for next sitting day. OPAWA AND POINT RAILWAY. The Provincial Secretary moved—- “ That Council take into consideration message No 6, from his Honor the Superintendent. The House went into committee, when it was resolved that the Council recommend his Honor the Superintendent to make the reserve for the Opawa and Point Railway, a» stated in the message. The resolution was reported to the House, and adopted, PETITION OF MR NALDER. Mr Webb moved “ That the petition of Mr H. N. Nalder, presented to the House on Thursday, Gth May, be referred to the Select Committee appointed to consider the resolution No 6, Notice Paper Gth May, and resolution No 3, Notice Paper 7th May, for their report thereon.” The motion was agreed to. DRAINAGE OP LAKE ELLESMERE. By permission of the House, Mr BLUETT moved, his motion, asking the Secretary for Public Works whether it is the intention of the Government to proceed with the drainage of Lake Ellesmere,and if so,whether it is their intention to throw the land reclaimed open for sale ; "and, in any case, whether it is their intention to take off the reserve on lands adjoining the lake above high water mark and throw those lands open for sale. The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS said that the question of the hon member contained three heads, First, as to whether the

Government intended to proceed with the drainage of Lake Ellesmere, he might say that the report on the subject had been sent in so recently and was so lengthy that the Government had not been able to give the subject that consideration which its importance demanded. At all events, he might say that the Government did not intend to undertake the drainage of Lake Ellesmere that year. As regarded the second part of the question, he might say that the first answer given disposed of that. Beyond this, Mr Bray’s estimate was L 21,000, which, of course, they would not attempt to carry out. As regarded the third part, he might say that the reserves were permanent, and could not be taken except by a vote of the Council. THE FINANCIAL STATEMENT. On the order of the day for the committee of supply being called on, Mr J. N. TuSSWILL said that as no other member appeared to be willing to rise, he would wish to point out to the house before the estimates were debated, that there appeared to him to be a serious error in connection with the Government estimate of the amount to be obtained by means of an increased rate towards the cost of school buildings. The Government had accepted the Board of Education estimate of L 53,974 for the erection of school buildings during the past year. It appeared that they estimated L 42,790 would be required for what they termed old districts, and that Li 1,184 would be required for new districts. But the Board of Education estimate of the cost of building such so-called new districts was not LI 1,184, but L 14,239. They had also apparently utterly lost sight of the fact that although the Estimates included a re-vote of L 10.429, it was quite possible a large portion of this sum might be appropriated for works now in progress, from which it was quite impossible to hope to obtain half of the cost, as the buildings were actually now, many of them, built, and the rate calculated upon the onesixth basis was now in course of collection. The Government Estimates were, therefore, altogether wrong, and he was surprised that this important matter had been overlooked by them. In order to ascertain what portion of the total sum of L 53,974 would really be charged with one-sixth, and what portion would pay one-half, he would add the sum now actually due, or about to become due, by the Board of Education for buildings in progress, amounting to L 9588, to the sura estimated by the Board of Education as for altogether new districts, namely, L 14.229 ; and to this he would again add LISOO, as the half of L3OOO, the amount set down by the Board for contingencies. He thus arrived at the fact that the sum of L 25,327 would be chargeable with one-sixth, and deducting this from L 53,974, that L 28,647 would be charged with one-half. One-sixth of L 25,327 was L 4221, and one-half of L 28.647 was L 14,324, and it thus followed that instead of a total receipt from rates for school buildings of L 23,209, as estimated by the Government, the total receipts would actually be L 18.545, showing a difference of L 4665. But this was not all, for there were still very large sums included in the L 28.647 above stated, which should, in all fairness, be considered as belonging to new districts. For instance, in East Christchurch the school buildings were not completed, as was the case in West Christchurch, and it would be preposterous to expect that East Christchurch would submit to pay one-half the cost of these buildings, and that West Christchurch should escape with one-sixth. He did not believe tl at the Council would allow such a thing, and if this was not done a further sum of L 12,245 would require to be estimated as only contributing one-sixth. Working out these figures he arrived at the astonishing fact that in all the sum of L 37,572 would beiequired for new buildings and L 16,402 for old buildings. Again, one-sixth of L 37,572 was L 6262, and one half of L 16,402 was L 8201; so that in all, instead of L 28.209 being raised by rates upon school buildings the amount melted away to L 14,463. But one-sixth of L 53,974, which would be raised under the first Act, is L 8995, so that after all the only saving effected would be one of a paltry sum of L 5468, and in ■ order to effect this it was contemplated to levy what would be to the older country districts a perfect prohibitory tax. Before sitting down he would liketo take the opportunity of explaining to the House what the Provincial Secretary had characterised as the extravagance of the Board of Education in sending in estimates for the erection of schoolmasters’ houses at prices ranging from £3OO to £1320. It was perfectly true that the Board proposed to erect a master’s house at Timara of an expensive character, but the circumstances were entirely exceptional. Timaru was the natural centre of a large district, and it had been strongly represented to the Board that many of the residents in that portion of the province were in great need of the means of obtaining for their children an education somewhat superior to that ordinarily obtainable in district schools. It was also pointed out that there was no school of a superior character similar to the Christchurch College Grammar School, and under the circumstances, the Board decided to erect a stone building to accommodate a schoolmaster of superior attainments, and if necessary a few boarders. With this exception the sums asked were not large. In all, twenty-eight masters’ houses were required, and they would cost upon an average L 364 each. He saw by the estimates that it was proposed to build a cottage at Lyttelton for the keeper of the powder magazine, and he would ask if this sura was considered necessary. Was L 364 too much to spend for a schoolmaster’s house 7 If the Government had only taken the trouble to inquire, they might have easily obtained the above information. They appeared to have most peculiar views of their position with regard to the public service. Thejother night the hon member at the head of the Government made a statement blaming the railway engineer for having delayed in the preparation of the departmental estimates. The hon member appeared to forget that by all the laws of ordinary Parliamentary usage he was bound to defend and protect a public servant in that Council. He trusted that the Government would see that the practice he had pointed out would be, if continued, entirely subversive of that good understanding which it was so desirable should subsist between the Government and the public service. [Cheers. J Mr Montgomery; Sir, —I listened attentively to the statement made by the Provincial Treasurer, and have since read it over very carefully, and while I am anxious to give him credit for it if regarded as an essay or literary production, I must say that it is not, in the ordinary acceptation of the term, a financial statement. In every financial statement, or budget, there is an estimate of

the income likely to be received, and also the expenditure required for the current year. The amount required for the service during the year is carefully calculated. In each branch the lowest amount for which the service can be conducted is set down in the estimates, and the Government should be prepared to show each amount to be necessary. Instead of showing a balance sheet, in which all sums required for the service during the current year are included, the hon gentleman has furnished a statement of our provincial affairs, and he has deliberately stated that the Government will indicate to the Council, when going through the estimates, those sums which they think may be struck out or reduced. Therefore those estimates of expenditure are not estimates of sums the Government believe will be necessary for the public service, but an aggregate of suras previously voted and new amounts placed on the estimates, to be asked for or not, as the Government may determine. Now I venture to say the course adopted by the Government is without precedent, and that it puts it out of the power of the Council to form any correct idea as to how those estimates will pass out of committee. Had the hon gentleman stated that the Government would ask, with the hope of obtaining, every amount on the estimates, but that in minor matters due weight would be given to any arguments which might be adduced by members of the House when the estimates were passing through committee, and that they would be willing to agree to such reductions as might be shown to be necessary, I could understand it; but to say that the Government would lead the way in reducing their own estimates is one of the strangest statements ever heard in this Council. I think the Treasurer should state explicitly the items he intends to strike out or reduce; that in fact an amended balance sheet should be laid before the Council before any sums outside the departmental expenditure be voted. Since the statement has been made the Secretary for Works has indicated some of the reductions the Government propose to make; but I did not understand that all proposed reductions were mentioned; but if he had stated precisely the whole of the items the Council would only be in possession of the material with which to reconstruct the estimates and form a balance sheet. I think it might reasonably be inferred from the tone and tenor of the hon gentleman’s statement that the finances of the province are not by any means in a satisfactory condition ; that in short “we have a certain deficit to meet, and the people must make up their minds to bear additional burdens to do so.” I do not mean to say that the hon gentleman drew so gloomy a picture as it appeared to some members of the House, or to some of the public outside ; but he mentioned the word “ deficit ” repeatedly, and I think it can be shown that there is no deficiency, and that we commenced the current financial year under very favorable circumstances, I beg to claim the attention of hon members to the following statement. I use only round numbers to prevent unduly incumbering the statement with figures. We commenced the present financial period with L 352,000 cash in the Bank, LIOO,OOO worth of harbor debentures not issued; amounts due from General Government for purchase of Quail Island, and refunds, L 12,000; outstanding amounts due to railway, L9COO ; accrued sinking fund, L 22,000 ; altogether L 495,00 nearly half a million. This sum does not include any portion of the revenue of the current year, as the L9OOO outstanding due to the railways, is not, [ understand, included in the estimate of receipts from railways for the current year. Now, against this amount, what contracts have we entered into, and what sums will be required for works commenced which must be completed 1 I have made a careful calculation, and have had the assistance of a gentleman who thoroughly understands the condition of our public works and all engagements relating thereto, and this is what I think will be found correct - The utmost extent of our actual liabilities, including amount for completing Lyttelton Harbour works, purchase of steam dredge, conversion of railway guage,passenger station at Christchurch, railway workshops and machinery, payments to the General Government, Waimakariri Gorge bridge, southern bridges, public buildings, including Normal school, museum, school buildings L 14.000 gaol, lunatic asylum, &c., and grant to road boards of LI 5,000, is L 373,000, which deducted from balance L 495,000, as previously stated to be available, leaves L 122,000 with which to commence the financial period. The .treasurer has estimated the balance for appropriation at LI 50,000, but 1 think he has omitted some items. But it will be said that the Council voted large sums for other works which should be undertaken, if not now, at some future time, and that provision should bo made for those works, This is undeniable, and I shall endeavour to show that there can be no difficulty in this matter. It may also be said that last year the amount voted being in excess of estimated receipts, and those receipts having fallen off, there is a difficulty in providing for new works. I believe it can also be shown that there will be sufficient revenue to meet the necessary expenditure. This is not my province, it belongs to the Provincial Treasurer, but as it has been industriously circulated that we could not see our way to find the money, I believe hon members will not think I am unduly trespassing on their time if I go into the question somewhat fully. In June last estimates were brought down showing a total of receipts for the period of L 1,150,912, and an expenditure of L 1,113,412, leaving a balance of L 37,500 unappropriated, but it was afterwards represented to the Government that the treasury owed a large sum to the district soutli of the Rangitata, and that this debt should he acknowledged by allocating to certain works in that district a portion of the amount strictly belonging to the district. The Government thought this was a reasonable view to take, and accordingly in the supplementary estimates were included L 50,000 additional to Timaru breakwater; L 60,000, extension of Point railway; LIO,OOO, extension of Waimate branch railway; and about L 24.000 for sundry bridges and metalling of roads, including LSOOO for planting reserves and bridge sites; but it never was intended that all these sums should be retained in the bank until these works would be executed. It was an allocation showing the people South how the funds belonging to the district should be spent. Altogether, the Ordinance passed in June appropriated L 1,316,922 or L 166,000 more than the estimated receipts for the period. This was done with the full consent of the Council, without one word of dissent from those who generally gave financial matters their attention. Mr Keuuaway,

who thoroughly understood the question, said not a word, nor did the hon member for Waimate, nor did the present treasurer. The only member who seemed astonished was the hon member now ar, the head of the present Government, but I don’t remember that he said anything. In fact, the voting of the various sums in the supplementary estimates was thoroughly defensible; but it was, of course, open to any member to ask where the money was to come from. I may say here that Mr Ken n away was in the habit of doing what all Governments do—asking the sanction of the Council to a £ renter appropriation than the estimates proviled for; because experience had shown that there had always been considerable sums unexpended at the end of every financial period, and that if care were taken not to make contracts until the funds were certain there could be no financial difficulty. Mr Kennaway’s main estimates for the year ending 30th September, 1873, showed an expenditure of L 453,255, but appropriations were taken for 1/573,435, or Id 20,679 in excels of estimate. For the twelve months ending 30th September, 1874, appropriation was made for upwards of LIIOjUOO above estimated available receipts. I do not mention this to show that we followed a|precedent,but I merely cite these cases to show that there was nothing unusual in the course adopted last session. The unexpended balances on schedules B and C, at the end of March, 1875, amounted to Lj702,000. Every member of the Council knows that all the money voted would not be required during the period for the Lyttelton harbor works, nor for the Timaru breakwater, for the extension of the Point railway, nor for the water supply between Kakaia and Ashburton, nor for a number of other works. And the same thing will hold good to a greater or less extent for the current year if the Council revotes all these unexpended sums, and makes fresh appropriations in anticipation of the revenue. The danger might be in the Government entering into contracts before they made certain of the revenue accruing. That, of course, is a danger to be considered; but we must place some faith in our public men if we are to have a Government at all, and I for one am not at all afraid of allowing a reasonable latitude. To say now that there is a deficit would be to misapply the word. It might have been used with equal truth at the commencement of the financial years 1873-4-5, because larger appropiiations were made than the revenue for the current periods would cover; but it was not then used, nor can it be applied now. The Provincial Treasurer was, therefore, quite correct in stating that the balance of L 261,031 at the debit side of his balance sheet is not actually a cash deficit for the current year. What I object to isthat he used the word so often, and laid so much stress on it, that hon members thought there was a deficit. There is no deficit, nor can there be a deficit if reasonable prudence be exercised. Now as to the falling off in the land revenue. It is true that during the nine months the revenue was less than amount estimated by about L 40,000; but it must be borne in mind that in the estimate for the last period the receipts for June were nearly LIO,OOO less than actual amount incurred, therefore, the falling off of the land revenue was actually only about £31,000 —not an amount to cause any serious disarrangement of our finances. Hon members will therefore see that there is nothing to cause alarm. The land revenue for the current year is, I think, underestimated; but whether it is, or not, it must be borne in mind that a great amount of work has been done towards opening up communication with the interior by the formation of roads and bridges. It must not be forgotten that there has been a very large amount derived from the land sales spent on railway and harbor works during the past nine months. We cannot spend the proceeds of land sales on railways and have the money for ordinary roads. And this brings me to a matter of great importance affecting our finance I me in the sale of the rail way between Lyttelton and the Selwyn to the General Government As the Provincial Treasurer has not alluded to this question in his statement we are in ignorance of what are the views of the Government on the matter ; but it|may not be uninteresting to members to hear that the late Government agreed, subject to the sanction of the Provincial Council, to sell the railway at a fair valuation. A Bill giving power to purchase passed the House of Representatives, but was thrown out in the Upper House. I believe the General Government is now about to have the railway valued, and that action is likely to bo taken at the next session of the General Assembly. If this line be sold the money derived from the sale should be employed, I think, to making a dry dock or slip in Lyttelton, in making branch lines of railway, and providing funds for necessary extensive works south of the Eangitata. At all events, the late Executive discussed these matters and held these views. 1 wish to say a few words on the abolition of the schedules A and B. The Treasurer endeavoured to make out a case for this alteration; I don’t think he succeeded; but what I particularly wish to point out is that he laid great stress on the assumed fact that the ordinary income would not cover the ordinary expenditure. Now I think ho might have rearranged the items, and it would then have been seen that the ordinary income ’would be sufficient. “If , he had placed the railways and interest on loans in schedule B, and the capitation allowance in schedule A, I think the ordinary income would be found sufficient to cover the expenditure without increasing the education fees The debt was incurred for the construction of roads, public works, and immigration, and theintcrcst and sinking fund should be a fair charge on schedule B. I think, however we may arrange our schedules, that it should not go forth to the world that we are using our laud fund to cover our ordinary expenditure. I may call the attention of the Treasurer to what I think he will find is an error. He states that schedule A isjndebted to schedule B in L 13,413, but 1 think he has overlooked the fact that there is a sum outstanding due to the railway of L9OOO, and that four quarters’ maintenance of education was debited to schedule A during the nine months. Respecting the revenue required for education and the remarks in the statement respecting this question, the hon gentleman stated that the Board of Education “ recommended the preparation of an Ordinance by which the wants of education might be met by raising a property tax throughout the province.” Now I think the hon gentleman is in error here. The Board recommended a property rate instead of a house rate, and I think such recommendation deserves the best consideration of this Council. It is monstrous to suppose that a house of thirty-

five rooms, worth L4OO a year, should berated no higher than a cottage of three or four rooms, and I can quite understand why the hon member for Christchurch spoke warmly, feeling as he did strongly on the matter. When the second reading of the Education Ordinance comes on for discussion I have no doubt hon members will go fully into the question. With respect to the old school districts being called upon for a contribution of one half instead of one sixth as formerly, if the raising of the rate be made compulsory people in those districts will not consider themselves fairly dealt with, And if it be left to the people to voluntarily tax themselves from Is to 3s in the pound, a more cunningly devised scheme could not be hit on to prevent the erection of the buildings. Of course, this was not the intention of the Government, but the effect will be to prevent suitable buildings being erected. It will very materially check the progress of education. As to the proposal to double the children’s fee, I think nothing could be more impolitic. This also, can be discussed at another time, aud I shall not therefore take up the time of the House by further remarks on this matter. The next subject is the railways—The Government gravely propose to run the new lines at an annual loss of L 12,544; and to make up for this serious loss, they propose to raise the rates on the old lines. It never seems to have entered into their heads that those who make use of these branch or new lines should pay for them, or that the number of trains per day should be only such as the traffic would warrant. The House, I think, was led to expect, when the great railway critics got the management of the railways in their own hands, that there would be a great and beneficent revolution, and the outcome is a loss on branch lines, to be made up by increased fares on the old lines. I hope the House will object to this increase of fares and rates of carriage, and that the Secretary for Works will yet be able to show that these branch and new lines must be worked without loss. I now, sir, wish to say a word or two on the subject of the Museum, the more so as we have been given to understand by the Government that they do not intend to expend any money on it. I do not intend to say much on this subject. The Board of Governors is a body composed of gentlemen appointed by this Council—gentlemen of weight and postion in the community, and this question has now resolved itself into a conflict, or rather difference of opinion, between this body and the Government. Now, as this is a most important question, I wish to put the matter before the Council from all points of view. We have had one side of it, and I now wish so to put the case that hon members may have all the information before them, so’that they can come to a right conclusion. Now, on the 22nd September, 1874, the Provincial Secretary—not the Secretary for Public Works, for it was not in his department wrote to the Board of Governors as follows Provincial Secretary’s Office, Christchurch, Canterbury, N.Z., September 22nd, 1874.” Sir, —I have the honor to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the llth instant, accompanied with plans of proposed additions to the Museum, and in reply to state that the £14,000 voted for additions to the Museum building is available for that purpose, it being understood that firs sura will be the full amount that will be at the disposal of the Governors of the College for additional buildings, and will include architect’s commission and all other expenses in connection with the additions. I return the plans herewith. I have the honor to be, sir, your obedient servant, (Signed) EDWARD Jollie, Provincial Secretary. The Chairman of Board of Governors, Canterbury College.” The Government, through the Provincial Secretary, in this letter, it would be seen, informed the Board that the money was there when applied for. This was what the Government led the Board of Governors to believe. The sum of L 13,300 being in excess of the amount voted for the Museum and College; the Governors wrote to the Government and asked them to place at their disposal the amount voted by the Council, although not wanted for two years, expecting that the interest accruing would enable them to carry out the work, although the estimate was in excess of the vote. This, however, the Government refused to do, because they had take credit in their estimates for these unexpended balances as they looked upon this as an unexpended balance lying in the bank, and therefore one upon which they received interest. They had on this ground refused to accede to the request of the Governors. The Government told the Governors to call for fresh tenders, to keep within the vote, and that the money voted by this Council would then be available for them. The Government recommended that the tenders should come in on the 10th of March. Well, sir, the tenders came in, and the chairman of the Board of Governors of the college, with the architect, waited upon the Government recommending the acceptance of the tenders of Messrs England Bros, and Mr Tait. The Government said very well, and accepted the tenders as recommended, thus accepting the responsibility of carrying out this work, and pledging themselves to provide the amount voted by this Council for the purpose. On the 31st of March the Provincial Secretary wrote a letter stating that the tenders as recommended had been accepted for the amount mentioned in that letter. I do not see this on the table amongst the other correspondence, but I know as a member of the Board of Governors that such a letter was sent, [An hon member on the Government benches—“ Find it then.”] Sir, I don’t think we can be held responsible because the hon gentleman opposite cannot find this letter. "l do not see it amongst the correspondence I hold in my hand, but sir, I don’t think the Government will deny that this letter was sent, [Hear, hear.] I think the hon member for Lyttelton (Mr Webb) will bear me out when I s.iy that the contents of that letter was to the effect that the Government had accepted the amended tenders as sent in. [Mr Webb— “ What the hon member has stated is quite correct.” Di Turnbull —“ I can give the hon member a copy of the letter in five minutes.”] I may say, sir, that 1 have just had a copy of that letter placed in my hand, and it is as follows ; Christchurch, Canterbury, N.Z., March 31st. 1875, Sir,—l have the honor to inform you that the Government have accepted the amended tenders for the new buildings at the Museum, as reduced in size by nineteen feet in the north wing and as recommended by the Board of Governors, viz;—James Tait’s for excavating, concrete, masonry, and brick work for L 3281 17s, and England Bros for carpenter, joiner, ironmonger, slater, plasterer, painter, &c, for £5329_35. 1 have the honor to be, Sir, your obedient servant,

(Signed) Edwd. Jollie, Provincial Secretary. His Honor Mr Justice Gresson.” Now, I don’t know but what the Government might have been wrong, that is quite another thing, but I say this most emphatically that the Board of Governors were not wrong, and that they have acted in all good faith in this matter. The letter of the 31st March, which I have read to the Oouncil, says that the contractors and the Board of Governors in entering into these engagements did so on the distinct undertaking as contained in the letters I have read that the amounts would be forthcoming. Now, sir, I wish to call the attention of the House to one fact, that is that the whole amount required for this work is L 14,000, spread over two years, thus making only L7OOO during this year. Now let us look at the proposal of the present Government to expend L60,0C0 for a railway to the Point. I believe, sir, that this House will not sanction the repudiation of an engagement entered into by the late Government involving a mere matter of L7OOO, not to be expended on a mere matter of luxury, but of necessity. The building, which it is an imperative necessity -to enlarge, I may say contains 62.000 specimens of various kinds, and over 75.000 persons visited it during the year. There is, sir, something more required in this world than merely to feed and clothe the body, and unless we cultivate the mind we shall degenerate into the same condition as the residents in the agricultural counties of England, mere chawbacons,” with scarcely any article of faith but the parson and the ’squire. [Hear, hear.] Let us look at it from a lower point of view, from a monetary point of view. The Museum is a credit to the province, and gives any visitor who may come amongst us an earnest that we are striving at least to become a cultivated people ; and this is one of the reasons of inducement to persons to settle here. I think, therefore, that from a mere monetary point of view, the Museum has been more than a success; j Hear, Jhear.J The Museum exchanges with almost every foreign museum. From what I have said, it will, I think, be seen that the Board of Governors have not been wrong, and that we shall hesitate in repudiating engagements thus entered into, more particularly when those engagements only involve the sum of L7OOO per year to carry them out. [Hear, hear.] I wish now, sir, to say a few words with respect to charitable aid, or more properly speaking, the Female Refuge. I gather from the statement of the hon the Provincial Secretary, that the Government intend that these institutions shall be self-supporting. My hon friend says he is going to leave these to be supported by the people, but 1 cannot quite understand what he means by this. Now, I may state that I was in favor of this being done with regard to the Female Refuge. I looked upon it that it would be better to place it under the control of a committee selected by the subscribers, because I thought that a committee of ladies would assist in raising the fallen, and would also be the best to render assistance and advice as to the wants and necessities of the inmates. Sir, I most decidedly object to our institutions being left to what my hon friend calls private benevolence, because I have had considerable experience how people subscribe, and I venture to say that persons w ith LSOO a year income do not subscribe in anything like the proportion that one who has only LICO or LBO a year does. In England the taxation is spread over a number of objects. They have a police tax, charitable aid tax, &c, but here the only tax proposed by the Government is on the children’s education, leaving out all other taxation, and making all other expenses come out of land revenue. If the hon gentlemen opposite wish to raise money—l don’t myself believe things are so bad as they make out—let them put on a police and charitable aid tax. [Hear, hear.] Let those who have enjoyed all the advantages of Government for years past, and who have realised large sums without contributing directly in any way to these expenses, pay according to their property. [Hear, hear.] I say don’t tax children, but tax property if you must tax at all. I have criticised the statement of the hon gentleman freely, but I think and hope not in a captious spirit. Anything said in opposition to the measures of a Government is frequently taken to be the outcome of personal feeling, or to be tinged with such feeling. But I know what anxiety there is at all times in the minds of those having the management of public affairs, and nothing could be further from my intention than to offer opposition in order to embarrass the Government. I believe changes of Government, if fairly brought about, are generally conducive to the public advantage, for men come to the front who are full of ardour and burning with a desire to distinguish themselves, while the public has the advantage of the experience of those who have left office, and can be certain of the acts of the Government being watched by men who have been behind the scenes. I hope the Council will discuss all matters fully, and that hon members will not consider the time wasted which is occupied by debates on important questions. At the conclusion of the speech, the hon member was loudly cheered. Mr Jebson said that although he might refer to the speech of the hon member for Lincoln, and state that no doubt the Executive would remember the lecture administered by that hon member, yet he trusted that those hon gentlemen would still cling to the right of holding individual opinions. As to the speech of the hon member for Heathcote, it resembled a series of fallacies, a series of ornamentation, strung together to amuse the House. Surely the House could not forget the memorable circular which was sent out by the hon member and his colleagues of the late Ministry, which sounded the first note of alarm, by stating that in consequence of the falling off in the land revenue the amount voted to the Road Boards could not be paid, and notwithstanding that, the hon member now said that the province was in a sound financial and prosperous state. He (Mr Jebson) looked upon the hon member as occupying a fivefold capacity in that House, and as such he was supposed to know much respecting the province and provincial affairs, but it was a fact, that notwithstanding what the hon member had said, that after making every deduction, there would be a deficiency of somewhere about L. 30,000. Then he (Mr Jebson) would contend that the ordinary expenditure could not be increased, inasmuch as the ordinary revenue fell very far short of the ordinary expenditure. As to the question of education, he would ask whether, considering the large proportions it had assumed, education could be made self-supporting? He did not look upon the proposals of the Government with that fear which many did. Both property and persons, whilst deriving the advantages of education, must of necessity

bear the burden. Then how were they to meet the deficiency ? There was no other fund but the land fund out of which the deficiencies were to be met. Now it was not probable that the land fund would realise as much as it had formerly done, and he would ask what was to be done, inasmuch as they could not do away with the departments. He was greatly surprised to hear that negotiations had been going on for the sale of the railway from Lyttelton to Selwyn. Now, he thought it very strange that, with this fact before them, the late Government should have consented to part with £25,000 by the reduction of tolls. He sincerely trusted that the present Government would endeavour so long as they were entrusted with the property of the country to make it a really valuable property. With regard to the L 47,000 capitation grant, he did not see any grounds of objection to the mode in which the Government proposed to administer that sum. He thought that a large proportion of the L350,C00 set down for railways should go to capital account, especially as he did not think it would be easy to raise money by way of loan. As to the harbour works, he was of opinion that the province ought to realise from the purchaser, whoever he might be, as much as the property was worth. Indeed, to take any of the property of the province for colonial purposes except at its full value would be nothing more or less than an act of confiscation. The hon member who had last spoken had dwelt upon the large works carried out by the late Government, but he [Mr Jebson] would remind the hon member that scarcely any of the works were finished, and most of them were within ten miles of Christchurch. Why did the late Government hesitate to spend L6OOO in constructing a dam in the Kowai river as an initiation to a great scheme of water works for the plains, and why did they hesitate with regard to similar works in the country ? The hon member had also said that the railways would do away with the macadamised roads, and thereby a saving would be effected. Now he (Mr Jebson) would contend that it was a mistake for any Government not to go beyond the present system of railways, because if they did not do so they would fail to open up the lauds, and would fail to carry out the principle of colonisation. He contended that it was a vicious principle to charge for transhipping from the narrowgauge branch lines on to the broad gauge main lines, and yet the late hon Premier congratulated himself that in this matter the existing Government had followed his steps, when the fact was that, in order to make these lines pay, the number of trains running on these lines must be either reduced, or the fares and tolls must be raised to such an extent as would be almost prohibitive. Such was the effect of the present working of the railway system which he hoped the present Government would not continue. He would now pass on to thatconsummation of folly—thetoy-shop (the Museum) —[Hear, hear, and laughter] —why it was large enough to contain all the flora and fauna that had been raised from the ground from the deluge to the present hour—[laughter]—and yet the hon gentleman on the 31st March accepted a tender for L 14,000, and comes down now and says that it was a necessity. And moreover he eulogised the curator for what he had done. What had he done 1 Why out of a conglomeration of bones, sometimes from an ox bone and sometimes from other bones he had formed a picture which was the admiration of Europe and America— [loud laughter] —and then this gentleman had collected together from Europe and other places a collection, to bold which it had been proposed to vote L 14,000 in order to erect a building—a collection whose proper place would be at the bottom of the sea. [Laughter.] Why the gentleman who would come out from England to see the Museum must do so in the expectation of getting a billet of LIOOO a year, and that was all the Museum was fit for. [Cheers and laughter.] Dr Rayner deprecated the remarks made by the last speaker, as he (Dr Rayner) considered that the Museum was a credit to Canterbury, He was sure that the hon member would in his calmer moments greatly regret the remarks he had made ; being an attempt to turn into ridicule the generosity of those whose kindness had made the Museum what it was.

Mr W. B. Tosswill said that although the estimates might be defective as to detail, they indicated the manner in which the Government intended to carry on primary education in the province, and he considered that the proposition of the Government was very bad. The speech made by the late head of the Executive had relieved his mind a great deal, as it showed the province was not in that alarming state which had been represented. From a return he (Mr Tosswill) had obtained he found that the amounts realised from land sales for the present year were:— January, L 6600; February, L 839 1; March, L 9319; April, L 31,569; and up to May 10th the sum of L 5736 was received. He thought that the House would agree with him that with such a land revenue the country was not in such a very bad state, and he could see no reason for striking out from the estimates many sums which it was propose d to eliminate therefrom. He was in favor of voting more money than perhaps could be actually spent, inasmuch as otherwise many useful works would be delayed, which it would be well to carry out. If he might refer to the public prints, he thought that the Normal School should be used as a College and Public Library, but he hoped that the Government would not unnecessarily economise. He was of opinion, however, that the Government might well economise in the manner of erecting cottages for newly arrived immigrants ; and he must say that in this respect the late Government had been too costly in their expenditure. He trusted that the Government would reconsider their decision with regard to the Malvern water supply ; it was a work of very great importance, and it would be well to carry it out as far as possible. He would ask hon members not to be alarmed because the land sales had fallen off for a certain time. He believed that they had no cause for alarm. On the contrary, he thought that when they met next year they would find that they had a good cash balance to go on with. Mr Turnbull said that although he felt gratified at the temperate remarks* of the late President of the Executive, still that hon gentleman seemed to fail to recognise the signs of the times, and did not appear to bear in mind the altered condition of the province. He felt satisfied that at the next general election men would be returned pledged to economise as much as possible, and notwithstanding his great respect for the late President of the Executive, he (Mr Turnbull) felt certain that great reduc-

tions were an absolute necessity, for circumstances were widely different from what they formerly were. A great portion of their best lauds had been alienated, and it would not do, in the face of that, to embark in huge public works. They must bear in mind that the provinces had had fair warning, and they ought to act with prudence, and by economy endeavor to set their house in order to meet the coming storm, and not by a lavish expenditure throw themselves into the arms of the abolitionists. He contended that the lavish charitable aid that had been given by the Government had done great harm to the cause of religion, by keeping down those feelings of charity which were the distinguishing marks of true Christianity. Better, far better, to levy a rate than continue such a system. He blamed the action taken by the late Government as to the Museum buildings, a course of action which he designated as tricky. In fact he thought that the whole affair bore a very bad appearance indeed. He pointed out the numerous delays which had taken place, and inquired whether the contract was really signed, sealed, and delivered on the 31st March last, and when he was satisfied on that point he must doubt the wisdom of a Government which, at the very last moment, could thus enter into such a contract. He (Mr Turnbull) was not going to endorse the statements of the hon member (Mr Jebson) with regard to the Museum, but he had looked over the collection, and he must say that it about equalled such a collection as he had seen in a third-class travelling caravan. [Laughter.] He was of opinion that if the specimens were re-arranged, and the Maori house occupied, they would have room for specimens for years to come. He contended that it was wrong to spend the public money in erecting museums, and thus adding to the burdens of the people—money which ought to have been spent in developing the resources of the country. He failed to see that the Museum would attract immigrants to our shores. Dr Tuknbull thanked the Government for the very handsome present each member had received that evening in the shape of the statement made last night, as printed in the columns of the Star. He supposed that the reason why they had not received copies of the morning papers was that the statement was not worth twopence. [ Roars of laughter.] He argued that the action of the late Government in proposing to expend £14,000 for buildings at the Museum, and the proposal to withhold a similar sum from the Road Boards was justifiable, inasmuch as that money had been voted to the Road Boards on certain conditions, which had not been fulfilled. He defended the course taken by the Board of Governors, and contended that they were obliged to send the plans back for readjustment from time to time, through the contractors sending in tenders for the work at an enormous price. He thought that the present Government had acted in this affair very wrongly, as they seemed to be ignorant of the letter of the 31st March, 1875, which distinctly stated that the Government had accepted the contract, and moreover, that contract was signed by the contractors on the 31st of March in Mr Mountfort’s office, and he thought it was a most unwise thing in the present Government to repudiate the acts of their predecessors. It was also a most unwise and uncorteous course for the present Government to adopt, to ignore the Board of Governors and to enter into direct communication with the contractors. As to the matter of the college, he could not see his way to say whether the normal school should be turned into a college and public library, but this he would contend, that the ratepayers of West Christchurch having paid one-sixth towards the erection of that budding, they were entitled to the use of that building as a district school, and it would be a deplorable mistake lo alienate that building from the purpose for which it was originally intended. With regard to the proposal of the Government as to education, he must object to it, and for this reason— they were told that because the people claimed out of their own taxation free education that they were degrading and pauperising the people. This was told them, and yet they were told that it was right to expend money in railways and highways to their very doors. He would ask was not this for the convenience of the wealthy, whilst because the people claimed free education to be paid out of their own taxation, that they were seeking to degrade and pauperise the people. He must and would protest against such a doctrine. Now he protested against the course taken by the Government; he did not believe that they intended to grind the people down, but they had educated themselves into the belief that property was to go on without taxation; He protested in the strongest manner possible. He did not intend to go fuither into this matter; but he must say that he still held the views expressed by him some time back. The late Government had been thrown ont on the ground that the Municipal Bill would have prevented Christchurch from receiving the large endowment that it was entitled to. The present President of the Executive when on that side of the House stated that passing through the suburbs the wheels of his dog cart actually stank with the filth of the drains. Now that he was the other side of the House what did he intend to do for the relief of the suburbs or the city 7 Absolutely nothing. He desired to point out that one-third of the whole revenue was contributed by the City of Christchurch. It was a rule of that House that the revenue derived from land should go back to the land —[Hear, hear,] —but never was such a thing uttered as that the money raised by taxation of the people should go back to them in the shape of local improvements, That was what the centres of population asked for—simply justice—the return to them of a per centage of their taxation, not to improve their property, not to expend in ornamentation, but to remove from their midst sickness, and a great amount of mortality. If it was agreed that the revenue derived from land should return to it, then he contended that the centres of population had a right to ask that a portion of their revenue raised by taxation amongst them should be returned to them to be spent locally. He could not understand how members could sit session after session and not see the justice of this. If it held good in one case it did so in others, and this was what he as a member for the city urged upon the House. Regarding the railways, he thought if the late Government made one meritorious stand during the session it was when they refused to consent to an immediate reduction of 25 per cent on the charges. They did a wrong to the general public when they reduced the charges at all, but in the case he referred to they had done good service to the province. He might say that he should keep p jealous watch upon the proceedings of the

present Government, and he could only hope that they would do as much for the province as the late Government had done, Mr Wynn Williams said that of course there was a slight difference of opinion as to the way in which the estimates had been brought down, but if the Government had omitted those items in the extra sheet hon members would have had fair ground for asking the Government whether they had intended to ignore the votes put down year by year. He might say that he bad got up to answer the speech of the hon member for Christchurch, as to the grants for municipalities. The hon menber had asked where was the large sum brought down for municipalities. He might say that he had never heard such a promise made at all. It could not have been made, because it was not known who would occupy those benches. The next subject he would allude to was the Museum. His hon friend, the late President of the Executive, had said that the Government had unintentionally misled the House by omitting a letter accepting the tender of Messrs England Brothers and Mr Tait. The substance of the letter was in print, so that the charge of the hon member fell to the ground. The real fact was this, that negociations were ponding for some time about these buildings, and at the last moment of the financial year the Governmentaccepted the tenders. Now, everyone knew that votes of the Council lapsed on the 31st of March; the Governors knew this, the tenderers knew it, and therefore it was understood perfectly, or should have been, that the money could not be paid until it had been revoted by the Council. What the Government should have done on the 31st of March was to have informed the Governors that the vote had, under the Audit Act, lapsed, and could not be paid over until the sum was revoted. The hon member opposite shook his head, but he contended that it was so. If the late Government remained in office they would have had to have asked the Council to revote the L 14,000. [Hear, hear.] The hon gentlemen accepted that position, but then how could he enter into a contract, because he could not for one moment say positively that the Council would have voted the money. Indeed, under the present circumstances of the province, it was sure that the Council would have refused to have voted this sum. Well, how did the conduct of the late and present Government differ. The present Government placed the amount on the estimates under the understanding that if the Council voted it, it would be paid over. He ventured to think that hon members who thought it much better that money should be expended on roads and other practical objects would agree with him that to spend L 14.000 on a building like the Normal School, added to the Museum, was utter foolishness. Hon members would recollect that once a month or thereabouts a list of curiosities which had been presented to the Museum was published, and if this extension was intended to contain these valuable curiosities, then he said to spend £14,000 on this was not at all a prudent step. [Hear, hear.] Let them look at the conduct of the hon member the late President of the Executive. One session the hon member came down as the apostle of prudence, and wanted to dispense with the learned gentleman in charge of the Museum—Dr Haast—and appoint a simple curator at L 350 a year. That was when he was a sensible and prudent man—[hear, hear] —but now the hon member came down with a perfectly different tale. [Hear, hear.] That hon gentleman had told his constituents at Akaroa that it behoved them to send prudent men to ihe Parliament of the colony, but how had the conduct of that hon gentleman carried out this. He left it to the House and country to say how it had been done. He might say that as regarded the engagements entered into, the Government, whatever might be said outside, did not intend to repudiate any engagement entered into. [Hear, hear.] Mr JOLLIE wished to say a few words on this subject. There was no doubt that the province was in a bad state financially, if they took the statement of the Provincial Treasurer, but he might say that he contended the province was not in a worse financial position than when the late Government met the Council at the last session. If hon members took the estimates, they would see that the balance in hand was L35?,943, and, if taking the statement of the hon treasurer, they found after all payments had been made there would remain a balance of L 150,000. Now it seemed to him when all their debts were paid and they had a balance of L 1.50,000.50,000 to their credit, it was not such a bad position after all. The estimated receipts and the balance in hand came to L 997,286, so that that was the amount the Council had to spend. When they left office he contended that they had left the province in a good condition. [Hear, hear.] The deficit he thought when they came to look at it would be found to be only about L 30,000, chiefly on account of the falling off of the sales of land. Now as regarded the harbor works loan he thought they had a fair right to put this as an asset. At the time the late Government were in office they looked upon it that it would not be prudent with a large balance in the bank for which they were only receiving four per cent to put this loan on the market, and have perhaps to pay six per cent for it. There were several other assets which should come in to the account, notably interest and sinking fund, which had not been required, which would reduce the deficit greatly. The actual deficit, therefore, would be, as he had said, about £31,000 or £32,000, which arose from falling off in land sales. Now it was well known that land revenue was very fluctuating, and it would be recollected that last year the Government had put down a sum which was largely exceeded. Now, this year the receipts had been affected by circumstances over which the Government had no control, and really the sales were not so much less as to call forth the lamentations from the hon members as to their financial position. Last session the Government had power to spend money beyond the. actual receipts, and the Council knew of this. At this time it must be recollected that the Government had to initiate the works properly, to place them in the hands of engineers and architects who, perdid not begin the work as early as they ought to have done. If the Government had gone into these large works before they were prepared hon members would have had cause to have rerpoached them. As regarded charitable aid and the Government proposals there was no doubt that numbers were receiving aid who had no right to do so; While he (Mr Jollie) was in office the greatest possible care was exercised. The applicant had to apply with a paper signed by a clergyman or a magistrate ; the case was theu reported upon by the police and the

charitable aid officer ; the whole matter then came before the Provincial Secretary, who made an apportionment of money or rations. Now he (Mr Jollic) thought the present charitable aid officer did his best, and he thought it could not be better managed by the Government or by a committee. [Hear, hear.] It might be [“ No, no”], but he doubted it. He thought that when the matter came to be tried, the benevolent public would say they would have nothing to do with it. [Hear, hear.] What would then be the position of his hon friend opposite? Why that the Government would have to carry out the matter themselves. Supposing it was carried out, he thought that the matter required very gentle handling. The Government was now, he thought, involved in a feud with the Board of Education—[Hear, tear, and “ No, no’ ] —with the committee of the Refuge—[Hear, hear, and “No, no”] —with the governors of the Canterbury College—[Hear, hear, and “ No, no,”] Well, all he could say was that to him it looked as if it was the case. In dealing with these public private bodies, as he might call them, they required very delicate handling, or they would jib and leave the Government to carry on the work. [Hear, hear.] As regarded the remarks of the hon member for Seadown (Mr Turnbull) as to the land revenue failing, he might say that this Lad been said for many years, but the facts had not been borne out by this statement. As regarded the museum, he might say that he thought the present Government had acted precipitately in the matter. The Government had accepted those contracts on the 31st of March but why had not the Government placed that letter on the table, [Mr Maskell:—We did not know of it; we didn’t find it.”J [Laughter.] Well, then, the late Government was quite cleared of any blame in the matter. He considered that the statements of the gentlemen opposite were very clear, but he might say that he objected to the hon Secretary for Public Works putting the vote for the Museum and the vote to the Road Boards in juxtaposition. This, he contended, was not fair, as there was no connection between the two. He might say that the present Government had taken off a large number of votes for the North, but had retained the Southern votes.

Hon G Buckley said the speech of the hon gentleman opposite (Mr Montgomery) was a very temperate one, but he begged to point out that his hon friend the Provincial Secretary, had most conclusively explained the circumstances as to the estimates. He would further say that, with a full Treasury, he could not understand why the grants for road boards were withheld. This was a course he could not at all understand. - [Hear, hear.] He remembered some years since when there was an overdraft at the bank of LBO,OOO, the hon member for Selwyn, Mr Jollie, stood up, and, in a most pathetic speech, inveighed against the Government for not paying over to the Road Boards the money due to them, and made use of the following words, “ These long-suffering and illtreated Road Boards, whoever goes unpaid, their votes should be paid.” [Hear and laughter.] Now, the same hon member when in office with an overflowing treasury and a balance at the bank of L 860.000 declined to pay over the grants to the Road Boards. [Hear, hear.] The hon member for Selwyn had said that there was no deficit, but let him shuffle the cards how he liked, and he defied him to get away from the fact that at the end of March, 1876, they would have an empty treasury and liabilities to meet amounting to L 200,000. [Hear, hear.] Now the hon member had discovered a new source of revenue—viz, the sale of their railways. The hon member was a member of the Assembly, and he knew that a Bill to this effect was sent up the Council and rejected, although many members brought pressure to bear upon the General Government to reintroduce it, but they declined. Therefore it was not at all probable that the province would receive a sixpence from this source, the more so as many members who had voted for such a Bill would now bitterly oppose it. All that they were likely to get rid of at all would be the interest and sinking fund. This was now under the consideration of the Government, but as yet nothing had been done. Hon members also thought that there was no end to their land revenue, but they must have seen that good land was becoming scarcer every day, so that they must look to a diminution in this portion of their revenue. As regarded the speech of the hon member for Selwyn, he might say that though he had been a member of the House for twelve or thirteen years, he never saw such extravagance as had obtained during the past year. [Hear, hear.] In fact, money had been thrown away broadcast. As regarded the expenditure for the south, spoken of by the hon member of the Selwyn (Mr Jollie), he might say that as a large amount of money had come into the Treasury from the south, they were only asking for their own when they requested that the money so raised should be spent in public works in the district from which it was raised. [Hear, hear.] Mr Webb said that he was sorry at the course pursued by the Government with regard to the Museum, and he was also sorry to hear the remarks made by two hon members respecting that institution, remarks which were wholly uncalled for, especially when they considered that the institution was a credit to the province, a result which he thought was mainly due to the indefatigable exertions of a gentleman who had been made the subject of a personal attack. He said that there was no doubt that a contract for the erection of additional buildings to the Museum had been entered into by the late Government, and he contended that the present Government were not right to repudiate the acts of their predecease rs. He hoped the Government would alter their decision on this point. He was sorry to see a spirit abroad 1o deprecate the efforts that were being made to depreciate the higher branches of education, and he was certain that if they did not provide the means for higher education it would be the means of sending many of their youth to the old country to complete their education from whence it was probable they might never return. He contended that the Normal school was unfit to be used as a college—particularly in the chemistry department, and he stated that having brought out competent gentlemen to act as professors, it was their duty to provide suitable accommodation for them. There could be no doubt also that the ratepayers of Christchurch west had a right to the use of the building as they had paid towards it. He was sorry to see that the Government had made no provision on the estimates for a new railway station at Christchurch —a work of absolute necessity, and which must be carried out. Ho should have liked the Government to

have stated more definitely how they intended to apportion the vote of £75,000 to municipalities and road boards. Whilst speaking on this subject it had been stated that Lyttelton had no claims beyond other portions of the province. Now he would contend that Lyttelton was an exceptional case. They were a community of working men and a few storekeepers ; their waterfrontage had been taken from them, and their wharfage dues were received by the General Government, and yet they were required to carry out works for drainage ; this they could not do without assistance, in fact, perhaps it would be better if the Government took that work in hand, and then they would see that the money was properly spent. Mr Walker said he thought in spite of the gloomy views taken by the hon member for Lyttelton, that the work of higher education would be carried on in the same spirit in which it had been begun. He approved of the conduct of the present Government with regard to the Museum, He thought it would be well to carry out great works by small appropriations year by year, in this way many very useful works might be carried out. He regretted that the sum for the Malvern water supply did not appear on the estimates, and he hoped that the Government would yet see their way to carry on this work. He did not see any great probability that the land fund was likely to increase, and as such he thought they ought to exercise great prudence. Mr Higgins moved the adjournment of the debate till next sitting day. The motion was agreed to on the voices. Second Readings. The following Bills were read a second time—Diversion of Roads, Special Ordinance, No 4; Reserve No 93A Ordinance. The House went into committee on these Bills, when progress was reported without any clauses being passed. Leave was given to sit again on Tuesday, EDUCATION ORDINANCE. On the motion of the Provincial Solicitor the second reading of The Education Ordinance, 1875, was made an order of the day for next sitting. THIRD READING. The Diversion of Roads, Special Ordinance, No 1, 1875, was read a third time, and passed. Notices of motion having been given, the Council adjourned to 5 p.m. this day.