MR ROLLESTON AT PAPANUI.

Globe, Volume I, Issue 88, 11 September 1874, Page 2

MR ROLLESTON AT PAPANUI.

His Honor the Superintendent, as member in the General Assembly for the district of Avon, addressed his constituents on Thursday in the Church Schoolroom, Papanui. There was a moderate attendance. On the motion of the Hon J. T. Peacock, Mr J. T. Matson took the chair. The Chairman said his duty that evening: was but a light one. All he had to do was to introduce Mr Rolleston, whom they all knew, and he felt certain that they wm&d give him a patient and attentive hearing [cheers]. Mr Rolleston. who was received with applause, on rising said Mr Chairman and gentlemen: It is now some two years since I last had the pleasure of meeting you in this place. We met last, if I remember rightly, in the year 1572, just after the introduction into the Assembly of the colony by Mr Vogel of what is now pretty generally known as the Public Works and Immigration scheme. My position in reference to that scheme was not one of a supporter of Mr Vogel and the Government. The view I took, or rather the course 1 adopted, was that of a critic on the actions of the Government in this matter. I considered that both as Superintendent of the province and also as a member of the House, I was bound not to pledge myself to the support of what I did not see the end of. It seemed to me at this time —and subsequent events bore out this view—that what was wanted in this scheme for borrowing for the prosecution of public works and immigration was the means of keeping a check upon it, of overseeing and guiding the details. It required little statesmanship to see that the development of a country such as this required public works and immigration. That was at once admitted, and had to some extent been carried out both by those who have preceded me and also by myself. It required no statesmanship, as I have said, to see the necessity which existed in a country such as this for public works and immigration ; but it did require statesmanship to bring forward a scheme such as this, and not only Ibis, but to take the right time in which 1o do it. If seemed to me at the time, as Superintendent of a province entering on a career of pro-

sperity, that no scheme of this kind could be launched in the colony which could provide for the advancement of the interests of the whole, without detracting from those parts which had larger resources than the others ; because a scheme which had for its object the national prosperity could not, I thought at that time, be successfully launched. It was all very well to say that it would be carried out successfully, but to any one who knew the component parts of the Assembly—the different and conflicting interests of North and South—they would at once admit that it would be impossible to carry out a resolution of this kind—to say in regard to a scheme of this nature, thus far shall you go and no farther. Not long elapsed before it was seen that the scheme was viewed in very different lights by members of the House. The feeling of the people on the matter was, I think, well represented by a remark in the speech of one of the members in the House, who said —“ VVhat we want is ready money ; plenty of it ; no mistake. Ready money, and plenty of it, and soon.” It soon, however, became apparent that the country was in favor of this scheme, and it would therefore have been unwise for any one to go up to Parliament to oppose it. So soon, therefore, as the session closed, I devoted my energies, as Superintendent of this province, to apply, so far as was possible, its provisions to this province. I will now shortly invite your attention while I explain to you the idea entertained by the Governmen t of the application of the scheme to the provinces of tbe colony. Mr Vogel said that the province which could not pay should not have the expenditure for public works made in it. I expressed myself convinced that a benefit to the colony would be derived from the works being carried on in such a way as to fix the areas on which the charge should be made. In our own province we had long recognised the necessity for a scheme of progression in immigration and public works. We had through our land fund, and a course of prudent self-government acquired a property which fairly entitled us to take such a course. We had a railway which had cost upwards of £600,000, and yielding a net revenue of £IB,OOO, which we felt could be fairly mortgaged to carry out further railways throughout the province; and if we had carried out this line of policy, and by such means opened up the province, we should not have had less railways, and the cost would have borne very much less hardly upon us. [Hear, hear.j It seemed to me that Mr Vogel’s scheme, having been adopted, it was my duty to do the best with it here, and during the session my policy was to act as a watch or a critic of the movements of the Government, and to act with those who, like myself, desired to see the coarse of this great scheme—on the result of which largely depended the future prosperity of New Zealand —fairly and successfully carried out. The session closed, and the colonial treasurer went to England, It is said that he is going fo England again, and I am sorry to hear it, because the Colonial Treasurer has so much on his shoulders that I do not think it will meet with the commendation of the people of New Zealand. Gentlemen, he has committed us (the people of New Zealand) too deeply to leave us at this juncture. Not only this, but I must confess that I shudder to hear of the Colonial Treasurer going away. The last time he went away he brought back with him—without the consent of the General Assembly, be it remembered—the Brogden contract, and I don't know what be may bring back with him this time should he go. [Cheers.] I may say that I do not consider it right nor proper in the constitution of popular assemblies that the Colonial Treasurer should be allowed to exceed his powers in this way, and the opposition ought certainly have resisted the attempt on the part of the Government to commit a breach of the law by entering into such large engagements without the consent of the General Assembly. These Brogden contracts were one of the things which 1 strenuously opposed. They were of two kinds—No 1 gave the Government power to enter into a contract with Messrs Brogden for railways to the extent of £4,000,000; not all in money, £3,000,000 being paid in land, and £1,000,000 in cash. The second contract was for half a million, and was an alternative contract. Neither of these contracts, as was most clearly recited in them, were legal, as the Treasurer had no power to make them. However, he had led on a large firm by representations to enter into engagements, and we were in honour bound to stand by them. It ultimately ended in the second contract being accepted only, but the amount of money involved was doubled, the Government being empowered to enter into a contract with Messrs Brogden to the extent of one million. How this is likely to turn out it would be premature to say : time will show. My own opinion was that there was plenty of contracting power in the colony itself, and that to give such large powers to one firm, and to throw, as it were, a monopoly of the public works into their hands, was not a position in which the colony ought to place itself, because in so doing it abandoned, its power over its own public works, which, I contend, it should not do; and further, than this, it gave such a lengthened period over which the contracts would extend. This session of 1871 was characterised as a session of economy ; the next as a session of changes and inauguration of a scheme; the third was characterised by the Colonial Treasurer as a Government in search of an equilibrium ; the last (that which has just concluded) as one in which we were to rest and be thankful. The end of the last session, and the events which transpired, do not, I think, entitle it to be called a rest-and-be-thankful session, at least in the minds of the people at large. In the session of 1871 the Provincial capitation was cut down to fifteen shillings per head. At the same time it is only fair to say that the provinces were relieved of certain duties and responsibilities. Amongst others the responsibility and duty of conducting immigration was taken away from us, not as 1 think wisely. Immigration I take it to be carried out properly, must have the sympathies of the people. You can carry out a system of immigration, and land numbers of people on the shores of the colony; but without you have with you the sympathies of the people who are to receive them, no scheme of immigration will, I think, last any length of time. The same session was tern "kable for a change of policy in the waste la ds administrator!. During the session, a clause was passed in a very thin House, "md ah three o’clock in the morning. Why Mr Vogel—who has been bringing forward propositions which have .failed up to the present time, for taking land in the provinces as security for railways—never |

acted on this clause, I don’t know, except it may be that he thought it was passed without the full concurrence of the House, and without having had that consideration which its importance demanded. You will observe that the words are “ shall be empowered to take lands for light railways or other purposes,” powers as you will see of a very large nature. The same session saw the rejection of the Education Bill, which occupied a large portion of the, session, and also a Bill which seems to be rejected periodically, viz, the Insolvency Bill. Next session the immigration and public works scheme was n_cfc by an opposition led by Mr Stafford, who brought forward two resolutions, the first of which affirmed that the administration of the policy had not been one satisfactory to the House or the colony. The second had reference to a crying evil, and one which I think will always be an evil, viz: the absence of Ministers from the seat of Government. If this is carried on, we simply get a system of departmental Government instead of that intended by the constitution. • Responsible Government under the Constitution Act, is the combination of advice of persons selected from the Assembly acting in concert, and not the administration through the departments of the various Ministers. When the scheme was first put forward, I felt that it could not be administered to the satisfaction of the people if the responsible heads were absent from the seat of Government and, therefore, unable to act in concert. The resolutions were, as you are doubtless aware, carried, and Mr Stafford formed a Government. This only lasted twenty-eight days, and Mr Vogel then returned to power. I followed Mr Stafford, not only because his services had been great in the past, but because the views expressed in the resolutions were identical with my own, and such as I perfectly agreed with. No man has worked harder for the colony than Mr Stafford, and no man deserves better of it. I am glad of this opportunity of expressing my high opinion of him, though differing in politics. He is a man who, if put down in any popular assembly, would soon assert his right as a leader. Whether he retires now from public life or not—and I believe he has expressed his opinion that he considers himself entitled to retire from active public life—l feel sure that the people of New Zealand will recognise in him a man thoroughly devoted to the interests of the colony, and one who has, with singleness of purpose, zeal, and integrity, applied himself to the work.set before him. [Hear, hear.] During this ses°ion no local Act of any great importance was introduced, but . there was one brought in by myself and the Hon Mr Peacock for the improvement of the works of the harbor. By its provisions, a loan could be raised and charged on the revenue of the harbor if necessary. Another Bill brought in by myself was to enable recreation grounds, especially the domain and parks here, and in other provinces, to be brought under the “Domain’s Bill, 1862.” I now come to the session spoken of by the Colonial Treasurer, as the session of a Government in search of an equilibrium. The Colonial* Treasurer came down with a proposition, respecting provincial loans. The loans there were two classes —one class colonial and one provincial, and it was proposed that the provinces should be allowed to borrow money on land. The first bill brought down was the “ Provincial Loans Bill,” but this was rejected by the Upper House, and afterwards the several provinces brought down separate bills. These bills, which emanated from all the provinces except Canterbury, proposed to borrow £1.036,000 on the security of 1,987,185 acres. It is needless to say that the security thus proposed to be given, did not in any way afford information by which we could arrive at a just estimate of what it was worth—in face the greater part of che security was worthless. I am free to confess that the Legislative Council did good service to the country when it prevented such shams as these Bills really were, from passing. It will be remembered that I stated in the earlier portion of my address, that the Government had stated that they would not give a yard of railway without security, which meant of course, that the Colonial Government should undertake the making of the railways in the provinces. Ultimately however, a compromise was made, and the alternative half-million of money for railways in the North Island, was made a colonial charge, and that devoted to the purchase of Native lands in the North Island. Another change during this session was the introduction of a different system in regard to the Customs’ tariff. Up to that time the charges had been made by measurement duties. The Colonial Treasurer introduced the system of making charges by ad valorem duties, comprising a sliding scale of 15, 12. J, and 10 per cent. The estimated revenue arising from the Customs duties he put down at £900,000, The Chambers of Commerce throughout the whole colony, however, protested against the tariff as being oppresive, and ultimately it was reduced to an uniform charge of 10 per cent, though the Colonial Treasurer denied that there would be any increase in the revenue from this source. Statistics to the contrary were showered upon hon members ; I myself, having the advantage of a number of valuable documents compiled by the business men of Christchurch, from which we contended that there would be a very large increase in the revenue. Either Mr Vogel did not know this—and if so, he was the only member in the House who did not know it—or, he did know it, and concealed the knowledge. I do not, however, for one moment say that this last was the case. Now the actual result was a large excess over the estimate of the Treasurer. [ Cheers, [ Mr Vogel, in his budget this year, congratulates the colony on the excess, and kindly pays a tribute to the honour and truthfulness of the merchants of the colony, which, I may say, was never doubted. [Laughter.] Another Bill was the Waste Lands Regulations Amendment Act, and I think those acquainted with the present Act, will consider the alteration a beneficial one. I have no doubt in my own mind that free selection, before survey, without roads, was doing great wrong to the public who were occupying the country. It is true that the licenses to occupy contained a clause rendering the land subject to roads, but such clause had no legal effect, and, in some instances, has been totally ignored. The effect of the Act introduced during this session, was that all lands sold should be subject to roads, until Crown granted, and 1 think it will bo found to act beneficially. Another alteration, which was carried, is that enabling any applicant to go to the survey office and have the time and date of his ap-

plication entered, so that all applications would be heard in that order. Another Rill which was introduced resulted from a conference held in Sydney between the delegates from the various colonies with regard to the importation of stock. Messrs Reynolds and Vogel, who represented New Zealand at that Conference, agreed with the representatives of the other Governments then present that no more importations of stock from England should take place for two years. This was due to the fact that there was a considerable amount of disease in England at that time. I opposed the Bill, because it seemed to me that there was not, even at the end of two years, any probability of the case being much better than at that time. It. also seemed to me that to stop the importation of stock into a province like Canterbury, when we were extending our breed of stock and increasing our settlement, would be exceedingly injurious, and myself and the Canterbury members voted against it and it was thrown out. 1 now come to the last session of the House which has just risen. There can be no question that alike from the change in the tariff, and from other reasons, the revenue of the Colony has largely increased, but at the same time there can be no question that the whole of this increase will be needed to meet the present indebtedness of the colony. I will now briefly give you a i- few figures to show the present position of the colony. Our present indebtedness—including provincial debts—that is debentures in circulation, is £12,509,546, the annual charge on which is £777,796 ; to which you must add what has been authorised to be raised, viz., £2,051,000; and another Loan Bill, under which £4,000,000 is authorised to be raised, making a total of eighteen and ahalf millions. The Loan Bill|authorises the expenditure of the following sums ;—Railways, £3,000,000 ; immigration, £500,000 ; roads, £60,000 ; public works, &c., £390,000. I have said that it will require all the revenue that we may anticipate to raise to meet our indebtedness. Large as our revenue is, it seems to me that the country is not dealing with its revenue as individuals acting in their private capacity would do with their income. [Hear, hear.J For instance, I do not think the charges that are now put on loan should be so charged. In fact we are charging by far too much interest on borrowed money. Not only so, but the native and defence expenditure, which amounts to £l5O 000 a year-rrthisr year, the authorised expenditure is' £130,000 —is charged, the whole of .it, on loan. The loan of 1870 is coming to an end, and we shall be obliged to have recourse to further borrowing. The departmental expenditure for Public Works and immigration—l mean the salaries of those gentlemen we meet all over the colony—is charged, not on revenue, as I hold it should be, but on loan, and the expenditure in the Agent-General’s departments is charged on loan also. I think it becomes matter for serious"’ consideration, how long we shall continue to charge current expenditure oh ,• loan, and thus increase the indebtedness of the colony. If I am not ■wearying you with so many figures I will ask you to look, for one moment, at the difference between the customs revenue of the 'North and the South for the year June 30th, 1874. The North Island imports for that period amounted to £2,593,530, while the imports in the South Island for the same tperiod were £4,647,532. Similarly, the exports of the North Island for that year were £1,540,463, and for the South Island £3,981,337. I think these figures are very significant, as showing the relative producing power and relative wealth of the two islands. I will now ask you further to follow me while I give you the position of Canterbury and Otago relatively to the North Island, and also to the colony, in the matter of exports and imports. The imports of Canterbury and ; Otago for the period above mentioned, were as follows :—lm mrts, £3,943,732 ; exports, £3,144,075. Let us now take the Customs’ revenue of the North 'and South Island, and Canterbury and Otago for the same period.. That of .the North, Island was £411,473 10s 8d ; of the South Island, £697,203 19s Id, or a total of £1,108,677 9s 9d. Canterbury and Otago contributing £553,433 13s Bd, or nearly equal to the contribution of the rest of the colony. ‘The population of the North Island, according to the census (exclusive of natives), amounts to. 111,934, of the Middle Island 187,451, while that of Canterbury and Otago amounts to 143,888. I have quoted these figures to show you how imperative it is on us two large provinces to devote our attention to public matters, and see that we, who have so large 'a stake in the colony, get our fair share, and that we are properly represented, and that we should not allow matters to goby default. 1 will not detain you by reiterating the various Bills which were brought forward during the session, with one or two exceptions. Mr Vogel said that the session was one of rest and be thankful, and the only local Bills brought forward were a Waterworks Bill empowering the Provincial Government to initiate a system of water supply over the plains which, I think, will be found to be a very useful measure, and the Public Domains’ Act, for which, as you know, I stated at a public meeting I was responsible. If you wish me to go into it I will do so, but I hardly think it is necessary. [A Voice : You got licked, old man, 1 I took the Bill through the Lower House, and a member of the Upper House took charge of it in that place. However, it was thrown out. [ A Voice : A good job, too, and “No, nol”] I do not think anything will be gained by my going into the matter again. lean say, however, that nothing will be done in the matter until ample time has been afforded for consideration. The Licensing Act, which was introduced last session, was simply to make the other workable. Another Act provided for reserves being made in Road Board districts, and for municipalities, giving the Government power to reserve for municipalities in any part of the provinces. The Upper House, however, restricted its operation to Road . Board districts, and limited the reserves to 500 acres only. Another useful Bill was taken through by Mr. Richardson, providing for the inspection of machinery, and there was another entitled the Females Employment Act Amendment Act, This provided for the hours in which females might be employed in factories. At present this Bill will not very extensively come into operation here ; but as a health-protect-ing measure, and as affording protection to those who have not the same means of obtaining protection as others, I think it will be found to be a useful Bill. [Hear. hear.J A measure was introduced by the Government for the establishment of lodger franchise, but it was dropped. It was not taken up warmly by the House ; nor do I think the

Government dealt with the subject in as comprehensive a manner as they should have done. It is a subject which will have to be taken up at some future session. Another Bill was introduced by Mr Vogel, entitled the Pacific Trade Encouragement Bill, but it did not get very far. No doubt the establishment of a trade with these islands is a very good thing ; and I would myself go great lengths to see this trade between New Zealand and the islands established, because we are admirably situated to cany on this trade. I could not, however, lend myself to the scheme at *V • ;■ nature of affairs, looking to the 'probam.j...y uf our requiring all the funds in our hands to carry the scheme of immigration and public works to what we all hope will be a successful issue. The first proposition was to guarantee interest to the company, up to £250,000 ; next it was proposed to guarantee half a million, and subsequently Parliament was asked to go to the extent of one million. Now I do not think that it would be right to compromise the colony to that extent. It may be that I am not of a speculative turn of mind, but I like to see what we have got in hand done and well done, before going into new projects. Then came a Bill, which at first was not thought of very great importance, but the turn of events brought it more particularly into prominence ; I mean the New Zealand Forests Bill. No doubt it is a good thing in a country like this, to provide for the planting and conservation of the trees, but I could not see ray way clear to support the Bill as introduced by the Government. The Bill began by proposing an annual sura of ten thousand pounds to be set apart to create a forest department. The Bill further provided for the creation of a department of Conservator of State Forests, appointed and removable by the Governor. No salary was fixed for that office; that was to be fixed by the Governor, and the office was to be held for four years. It provided also for two assistant conservators appointed for three years.’' at a salary not exceeding £4OO per annum. You will see, therefore, that the Bill provided for the creation of a very considerable department. The question of £IO,OOO a year seems very little to a body dealing with such large sums as were dealt with during the past year, but I think the time is coming when £IO,OOO will be considered no inconsiderable sum. But these results, however, were not the only ones which led me to object to the Bill, It seems to me that it is a perpetuation: of a system which provides for the Government doing everything for everybody—thus paralyzing private enterprise; The Government are now taking up banking, life assurance, and numbers of other things which legitimately belong to private enterprise alone, and I do not know where they are going to stop. Such -things as these might fairly be done by the people themselves, and I think much better done than they can be by the interference of the Government. There were other objectionable clauses in this Bill, one of which gave the Government power to take 3 per cent of the whole area of a province—not, mind you, of saleable land, but of the whole land of the province. Thus, for illustration, if we say that there are eight millions of acres here, the Government of the colony would, under this clause, have power to take 180,000. I have no objection to the Government taking land to plant it, but 1 contend that any arrangement, under which Government could take from any province such an extent of land as this, must interfere most materially with the settlement of of the country, and deprive the people, who naturally expect to be able to get land, of the power of doing so. This, it must be remembered, is not to use for planting purposes, but to .create a revenue. When we look around us in this province, we see that the Provincial Government and private enterprise are doing a great deal of planting, thus showing what can be done in this respect, ascertaining whattices will best suit different localities, and making large recreation grounds. Here alone, we are encouraging a taste for planting, by distributing amongst the public reserves large numbers of trees—l believe some 60,000 or 70,000 a year, whilst in our nurseries, we have some hundreds of thousands of trees ready for distribution amongst public domains, parks, &c. I have taken some trouble to enquire into the extent of this trade here, and I find that no nursery garden of any extent distributes less than 50,000 trees during the year, thus showing that the people have been led to encourage planting of trees to a great degree. A very dangerous clause in this Bill bears the side-note “ Town may be constituted within state forests,” under which the Governor may proclaim towns in state forests. Our idea of a town is where people have congregated together and where schools, churches, stores, Ac. exist. The clause is as follows: “ The Governor may proclaim towns in State Forests, but any one town shall not exceed two thousand acres, and the land within such towns may be sold, disposed of, or reserved in sitch manner, and for such purposes and on such terms, as the Governor in Council may from time to time direct ; and such towns may be constituted Municipal Corporations, or be subject to local government in like manner as other towns in the province wherein such towns are situated.” If one thing more than another is prejudicial to the progress of the colony it is a diversity of land laws ; but I should like to know how many different land laws you would have under this clause, and also whether it would be prudent to give such large powers to the Minister of the day as to enable him to take out of pastoral land a block of 2000 acres. What position would a member of the House occupy who might be a large runholder, if the Minister of the day to whom he might be opposed had the power to take 2000 acres out of his run ? I have always opposed giving such a power as this to any Ministry. The Bill was called the State Forests Bill, but as I have pointed out it really meant taking land as security for the railways ; not railway extension bear in mind, but for the debt of the colony. Indeed the Bill as it came down really meant the extinction of part of the national debt. I don’t like a Bill coming down under one name, and meaning something totally different, and this was simply taking the land of the provinces held by them under the compact of 1856, to be dealt with by them for the use of the provinces. It is needless to say that on the Bill, there arose considerable conflict. The speech of Mr Fitzherbert, the Superintendent of Wellington, was taken hold of by the Premier, who attributed the antagonism to the Forests Bill to provincial feelings, and he said the provinces of the North Island stood in the way of the prosperity of the colony. ;Mr Vogel in his speech in reply on 'the Bill, took. occasion to say that it was time the

North Island provinces wore done away with. This was the fi.si intimation of the change, and, subsequently he came down with the following resolution : “ That this House is of opinion that, taking the circumstances of the Colony into consideration, the Provincial form of Government in the North Island should be abolished; and that in the measure giving effect to the same there should also be included a provision declaring Wellington to hr the Seat of Government of the Colony, and for continuing the localisation of the Land Revenue in accordance with what is known as the compact of 1856. That during the recess the Government should consider how best to give effect to the above; resolution.” You are now doubtless aware of the part which I took on this question. An amendment was moved by the Iron member fur Selwyn, Mr Reeves, who I am glad to see here to-night, the effect of which was to say that the question wasnotoueon which the House at that time was called on to express an opinion, or in technical phrase, “ the previous question.” It really means that the House will not consider the question at that time. I think you will agree with me that this was the proper course. [Cheers.] The question was an exceedingly large one, and was brought down to the end of the session, after the estimates were passed. It was not brought down because people asked for it, but because Mr Vogel had said That provincial institutions in the North Island must give way. The question brought on a very strong discussion, and the Government held over the members of the House the threat of dissolution. Mr Vogel stated at the time, that if the Government did not carry their way in this matter they would dissolve the House. 1 his circumstance, of course, gave them great power over a number of members who felt great diffidence in returning to tbeir constituents, though I must say that I have no reason to fear in my case—[cheers] —but still, there were a number of members of the House who did not like to go to the country. In constitutional government this was a threat that should not be properly held over the head of members by Ministers of the Crown. On ray part I took no active part in the debate. It seemed to me that it was not enough to say half the constitution should be blotted off the colony without, saying what should be put in its place. There was some talk of resident Ministers. Government agents, &c, but nothing definite was laid before us by the Government to enable the House to judge of the merits of the proposal. It seemed also to me most inopportune at this time to bring forward so large a measure, the question exercising our minds now being “ What will be the outcome of the present policy?” All were interested in immigration and public works, because aU were interested in seeing the colony go on, but still they must recollect that this was a most critical time. Our Customs revenue will only just meet |the claims of the public creditor : indeed, barely that, and taxation loomed in the distance. We in this province are not without the knowledge of the tax gatherer amongst us, to keep up our roads, &c., though, I am happy to say, the province is at present in a most flourishing condition. As I have before said to you, what we have to watch most carefully is the results of the policy which is now on. its trial. Therefore I say that the present time is the proper one for me to state what I think of it and its various points. Regarding native matters, the less we in the Middle Island hear or say of them the better. It is a mysterious subject, and the native department is one of which not much is known at all- No doubt, while the defence loan holds out, and while the present Government hold office, a change will come over the native administration, as it has done over the administration off the whole colony. As is well known, the original native policy was grounded on the policy of the Land Act of 1862, which gave the natives power to sell lands to private individuals through the Native Lands Court. This Act came into force really in 1865, and the Assembly had recognised that in these dealings the natives were on the same footing as Europeans, Large tracts of land passed out of the hands of the natives, up to the time of the Immigration and Public Works Policy to Europeans, but a change has now come back to the old system, and the Government has been practically the only buyer of native lands. From the power and money placed in the hands of the Native Minister, the department has practically become concentrated in one man. I do not think it right, that one man alone should be placed in such a position, that it becomes a personal government; as it is now, no one else can come in and take up the threads of the policy ; it may be right, but I do not think it looks healthy. However, so long as motley is plentiful, Sir Donald McLean will have the confidence of the natives and the country. Then, again, as to railways, the charge of this department is in the hands of Mr Richardson, a gentleman in whom we have all perfect confidence. Rut here, again, we come to the question of the ultimate success of our railway system. I have no doubt that some of you may have read an aiticle in the Economist on the Canadian railways. Some persons have predicted such a result here; and it will bo necessary for us to use the utmost caution and economy, so as to prevent our undertaking works of this kind without being fairly certain of the results. We have good cause in Canterbury, 1 think, to be nervous about whether we are getting railways at all or merely tramways. I have done all in my power in the Assembly and the province, to prevent what I call a crying wrong being done in forcing upon us a system of tramways in place of a first-class system, which has been initiated here, and a portion of which passes by this building in which I am now speaking. I believe that the system of railways now being carried on over these plains will not only incur a large amount for repairs, but will also not carry out the work so efficiently as the broader gauge The third point, upon which the Government is on its trial is that they have confessed that local agents are necessary to carry it out. I take this opportunity of saying that when working with Mr Vogel as an administrator, I have found him prompt and business-like, and I say this because I would not like it to be thought that because we differ in politics, we could not work together to carry the scheme out effectually in the province over which I preside. While saying this, I must say that these are radical charges which are contemplated —radical because it is idle to suppose that we can have two constitutions at work in the colony. And I say that it is inopportune because the Assembly has shown itself unequal to deal with large subjects. Take for instance, the Education Bill, I venture to say that this Bill is utterly

unworthy of any legislative body. It was chopped and changed about in the attempt to suit everybody, and in the end suited nobody. Look at the Public Health Act, no doubt a very goo 1 Bill, though far from workable, and the same may be said of the Diseased Cattle Act, and the attempt to deal with the Scab Act. The Lunatics’ Am is simply paste and scissors ; no Ministry though this was a most important subject--has taken it up and attempted to put it in a vvorkable shape. I am glad to say that inspectors have been appointed to put things generally in shapethronghout lb" col my, and and though here I am happy to say, the institution is a credit to us, others in the colony are a disgrace to us. 1 contend, that, seeing that the gaols and lunatic asylums are in the hands of the colony generally, it has not done its duty by seeing t hat the provinces carried out their duty ; in fact, to act, as an auditor, keeping check over them. Then, as to the survey of land, the colony now wakes up and Isays the surveys are not accurate : but the Survey Department is in the hands of the colony, who should have seen that they were carried out in an accurate manner. Referring to the proposal to sweep away the Northern island provinces, it was not fair to suppose that when local objects came under consideration, they- would be dealt with l>y the North Island without a larger share of representation. I ask you to consider, in the face of the figures I have read to you, showing you our position, whether you are prepared to largely increase the representation of our part of the colony to carry out the scheme. It is absolutely impossible in part to abolish the provinces, it must be all or none. For my own part, I do not wish to be understood as expressing opinions of an ultra-provincial character. I will quote what I stated in this room on a previous occasion. I then stated that I was not an ultra-proviu-cialist. When the time comes that the General Assembly shows itself able to deal with the circumstances of the colony, the change will come, and I for one will be willing to accept it. 1 do not sec that Mr Vogel or any one else knows what will take place. It is an old proverb that nature abhors a vacucura, and neither he nor any oue else knows what will rush in to fill the vacuum thus caused. The two powerful provinces of Otago and Canterbury will not, I hope, suffer a scheme to bo carried out which will do them harm, and I hope the people of this province will see that their members, elected to represent them, explain very clearly what position they will take in this matter. [Hear, hear.] I have always held that the provinces must, at some future time, cease to have an existence, but I am opposed to sudden change and disruption. The following words are from a speech made by me in this room : “I shall not now be misunderstood when I express my opinion that the whole colouy is at the present time overgoverned—that the machinery of government is too weighty, too cumbrous, too costly and furtive ; that the antagonism in which the Provincial and Colonial Governments are continually placed, should be brought to a close as soon as possible. A house divided against itself cannot stand. I am no upholder of double government, or of provincialism in its antagonistic relations to the government of the colony. If you mean by provincialism the neglect of the outlying districts and the sacrificing of the people, for the maintenance of an establishment in the chief town of the province, I am no provincialist. I do not, however, see that the evils complained of by those who are justly dissatisfied cannot be remedied, or that they will be escaped from by Girowiug ourselves into the hands of administrations at a distance. I cannot think that the removal of the administrative control to Wellington will simpfify or economise the matter ; nor do I think that the General Assembly—the majority of whom care nothing of our ■ affairs—should be entrusted with the apportionment of our revenues, which arc locally raised from our waste lands and from rates.” It seems to me that a great mistake is made by those called centralists. What they require is to centralise the Government in one place, whereas the attempt of the colonial party has been to localise Government rather than centralise, and this because circumstances are different here from what they are in the Australian colonies. We have not here one centre of“education, one centre of commerce, one centre of popular sympathy, therefore we cannot have the Government carrying on the business of the country with that lynx-eye of the people on it which is so essential for good Government. We shall by uprooting our present institutions lose much here, much individuality ; in fact, reducing Government to the level of medioci ity. I have here a quotation from an eminent author, De Tocqueville. Speaking of how a novel form of despotism may arise, where a central povvor rises ab we a race of men reduced to one uniform level —of how such a Government willingly labors for their happiness, provided it is allowed to be the sole arbiter of their happiness—of how it provides for their security, supplies their necessities, manages their concerns —till it goes far to spare them all the care of thinking and all the trouble uf living. He says—“ After having thus successively taken each member of the community in its powerful grasp, and fashioned them at will, the Supreme power then extends its arm over Ihe whole community. It covers the surface of society with a network of small complicated rules, minute and uniform, through which the most original minds and the most energetic characters cannot penetrate, and rise above the crowd. The will of man is not shattered, but softened, bent, and guided. Men are seldom forced by it to act, but they are constantly restrained from acting. Such a power does not destroy, but it prevents resistance. It does not tyrannise, but it compresses, enervates, extinguishes, and stupifies a people, till each nation is reduced to nothing better than a Hock of timid and industrious animals, of which the Government is the shepherd.” Mr Vogel spoke in his resolution of the compact of 1856, which was as follows: House is of opinion that the administration of the waste lauds of each province should be transferred to the Provincial Government of such province, and the laud revenue thereof made provincial revenue, subject to the following charges : —” which are staled. You will gather from the compact of 1856 that the land revenue was to be handed over to the provinces. together with the revenue arising from the waste lands, less certain deductions specified in the Act. What Mr Vogel wants 1 can’t very well see. He says that to depart from the compact of 1856 is dishonest. Now, under this compact the money is paid into the treasury, but what he now proposes to do is to abolish provinces, not in this

island, but ouobalf of the provinces who were party to the compact of 1856, and proposes to put a portion of the revenue into the hands of the General Assembly, a body composed of representatives from all parts of the colony. He says “We propose that a share of the land fund shall pass in aid of the local works carried on by the smaller divisions or subdistric's. that a part shall go 10 the larger districts formed of groups of sub-districts, which are capable of carrying on larger worts, such as branch railways. We by no mans ignore the fact that the colony has work in its charge which will be for the benefit of the districts generally, and that a part of the I md revenue should go for colonial purposes.” He proposes to (ake part of the land revenue apportioned foi one colonial purpose, and another for other purposes. and hmd Hum ail over to the Gem rat \ssembly. 1 ask yen when the necessities of the colony become urgent what He G -neial Assembly is likely to do with lee funds, when in its hands for administration. It is only fair that those hitherto group -d together as provinces, should continue to distribute the revenues accruing so long as their land fund exist. When that ends, what shall be done is a question upon whicn people differ very much, and I do not express an opinion on it, as T consider it would be premature. When the resolution of Mr Vogel came up for consideration, a meeting was held of those entertaining views the same as myself. The member for Selwyn, Mr Reeves, was also present, and a very strong opinion was expressed, that if changes of this nature were to be introduced it was not fair that the people wtio had returned members on a different platform, should not have the opportunity of returning members under the new state of things. Aresolutionjwas then proposed by one of the oldest members of the House, Mr Fitzherbert, as follows : “ (1.) That this House having resolved that (taking the circumstances of the colony into consideration) the provincial form of Government in the North Island should be abolished, this House further declares its opinion [that an organic change in the constitution, involving the establishment of a central bureaucratic authority for the administration of provincial affairs in the Norther provinces, in substitution for the rights and powers conferred on the people of the colony by the Imperial Paiiiam (, nt, ought not to be made without first testing the opinion of the people through their constituences.] (2.) That in order to give effect to the foregoing resolution, a respectful address be presented to his Excellency, praying him to dissolve the present Parliament.” Well, gentlemen, we thought that a resolution such as the one proposed by Mr Vogel ought not to be taken into consideration by a Parliament elected to carry out the Public Works and Immigration policy, and elected, or at least a large majority of it, to support a Government who had declared itself strongly in favor of Provincial Institutions. An amendment was moved by Mr Vogel to the following effect : “ That all the words erased be left out, with the view of inserting the following in lieu thereof —‘ The Provincial system of Government in the North Island should, as soon as possible, be followed by an inexpensive but more thorough form of local Government, under which the island should be divided into districts and sub-districts, endowed with substantial revenue, and the residents therein be enabled to take a larger and more direct share in .the management of local affairs, and the expenditure of local revenues, than is at present the case.’ ” Well, this was a very taking and cleverly worded amendment but the natural question arose, where substantial revenue was to come from ? If, as I have observed, the revenues of the colony are taken up by liability, there could be no surplus ; and as our engagements require every penny to meet them, 1 am at a loss to know what substantial revenue there will be, and what will be the result where there is no land left in a district containing a number of taxpayers to the general revenue left without its share of the laud revenue it is now getting from the provinces. lam quite unable to see in what form Mr Vogel is going to frame a Bill to localise revenue and find substantial revenue, and I think it is only right that the country should see Bills so vitally affecting them before becoming law. [Hear, hear.] The Government, as you know, had an overwhelming majority against the resolution — 41 to 16—and the amendment of Mr Vogel was carried also by a very large majority To show what a determination existed on the part of the Government and the majority, that the people should not be consulted, the following proposition, made by Mr Swanson in an able speech which I am glad to see has been re-produced in one of the local papers here, was negatived. Mr Swanson moved the following addition : “ And that the Bill to give effect to this resolution he extensively circulated at least two months before the next meeting of Parliament.” That, I think you will agree with me, was a very reasonable proposition. If a change was thought necessary, I think it is only right that the people should have an opnc - tunity of seeing what those changes really were; bes Hos. when members meet in Parliament, it is not easy to sec all the bearings of the question, as from the large amount of business before them the time is very short for consideration. I should not like for one to take up the question—so large and important as it is—in so short a time, nor would it be right to the people at large. The principle which has been our birthright, and under which we have worked so long, cannot be changed in so radical a manner without consultation, and 1 think it only right that the people should have an opportunity of expressing their opinion upon it. For myself I don’t say this because I hold the position I do, nor should I hold blindly to one party after the people have decided for a change. Whatever may be the result of the deliberations of Parliament, I should consider that I represent the people rather than a party, and when the people, through their representatives, decide that achange shall be made,] shall be willing, so far as 1 can, to carry out that decision. Gentlemen, I have to thank you for the kindness and attcutioa with which you have listened to a somewhat dry speech, an attention which I take is the greatest compliment to a speaker, and I only hope that I have made made myself sufficiently clear in the remarks 1 have made. [Cheers.] Mr W. Norman moved “That in the opinion of this meeting Mr W. Ilolleston is entitled to the confidence and thanks of the electors of Avon.” Mr Preston seconded (.he motion, which was carried amid acclamation. After a question had been asked Mr Rolloston, respecting the Canterbury Rivers’ Act, a vote of thanks terminated the meeting.