GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume I, Issue 67, 18 August 1874, Page 2

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

(Per Anglo-Australian Press Telegraph Agency.) Wellington, August 17. In the House of Representatives to-day, Before the debate commenced, Mr O’Roeke said he understood the Premier had stated that he had not given any notice to the Cabinet of his intention to resign if the abolition resolutions were pressed. He could assure the whole House that he did distinctly state he would resign, if the motion were gone on with. He regretted that the Premier was not present. There were, however, three members of the Cabinet present, and it was for them to say who spoke the truth, him or the Premier. If he thought the House disbelieved him, he would leave the House that instant. Mr Vogel, who then came in, said whatever might have been the difference between him and his late colleagues, be did not think he had pursued the usual course sanctioned by Parliamentary usage and custom, and instanced the case of Lord John Russell and several other English statesmen, to show that the explanation was quite contrary to all precedent. The resolution, when submitted to the Cabinet, was approved by the majority, and though the hon member opposed the resolution they had no reason to suppose he would have adopted such a peculiar and disloyal course to his colleagues. Though the Cabinet did not know his intention to resign, it appeared that hon members outside the Cabinet did, and even newspapers had information that evening. It was not an unusual thing for members of a Cabinet to retire, but it was customary to leave in a friendly spirit, and scrupulously to abstain from communicating with the Opposition. It was the manner of the hon gentleman’s retirement which he diapproved of, not his resignation. Mr Reynolds and Mr M’Lean said the hon gentleman had signified in the Cabinet that the resolutions were very repugnant to him, but they had no idea he intended to resign. Mr M‘Lean was surprised that a gentleman with such knowledge of parliamentary practice should have acted in so unusual a manner. Mr Richaudson corroborated what his colleagues said. Heknewheßid not acquiesce but did not know he intended to resign when he did. Mr Reeves said he did not stand in the capacity of a leader, but he was requested by a gentleman occupying a very influential position in the House to move what he intended. The proposed change was of a revolutionary character, and had not received sufficient consideration. The country should have been made aware of it before. When the Premier was visiting the colony he gave no intimation that such a large change was intended, and when Parliament opened stiil no intimation was given. He had betrayed the country by so precipitating the question. Ho would not. accuse the hon member of duplicity, and from his statement that the State Forests Bill had

drawn his mind to the question should think that this great question had been brought in on the spur of the moment. It was a pity that such great constitutional changes should be due to the passing humors of the hon gentleman. What safety could the country feel when such a measure was brought forward under feelings Jof irritation, and he must be mistaken if he found his speech received throughout the Middle Island other than with feelings of dissatisfaction. He professed to have no design to interfere with their land revenue, and would bring in an Act to guarantee that; but no one would believe one word of that. They must feel that the first opportunity offering, he would extinguish the provinces in the South. He could count upon help too, for it was well known that Southland would gladly see the province of Otago abolished. He was confident that this proposal would breed political discord from one end of the colony to the other. There never was a period when the various parts of the Middle Island were so well satisfied, and people had begun to hope the hon gentleman and his colleagues would settle down to work out the great policy they had inaugurated. The measure introduced was most inopportune and without the slighest demand from the people. It was an old axiom and a good one, that experimental legislation should not be indulged in. In this case the proposal was entirely unneeded and uncalled for. Never for twenty years was there a time when the provinces of Otago and Canterbury were so well governed and so satisfactorily to the people. He had no reason to suppose that Nelson was not equally satisfied. If this resolution were carried the time must soon come when the Middle Island provinces must be abolished. If they took the Wellington members as a reflex of public opinion it would be found that Wellington was not in favour of the resolution. He was perfectly satisfied that their affairs were carried on with satisfaction, and he only wished that the rulers had a fairer opportunity for displaying their abilities. Though Parliament had a legal and technical right to deal with the question, it had no moral right. Their constituencies would feel that the House had no right to respond to such a sudden call by the The position was anomalous and contradictory, and he could not see that the Government could administer local institutions any better than at present. The money would require to be found in some way, and to press it must only lead to financial and legislative separation. Bather than see such sweeping changes, the rest of the colony would assist to carry on their local institutions in the North as vigorously as in the South Island. It was not every country that could boast of a statesman who required only a week’s notice to introduce a new constitution, and who required only fifteen minutes’ adjournment to bring down the perfect details of a scheme, and the reasons for them. They were told it was troublesome to manage the finance of the Northern provinces, but he would find it just as much trouble managing the affairs of the whole island. As to the public works, speaking from experience, he could say that the Superintendents offered no obstruction, but assisted, as was their interest to do. He hoped the Minister of Works when speaking would detail how far the public works were obstructed by the Superintendents, and that the Native Minister would say how far the action of the Superintendents embarrassed the conduct of native affairs. The Premier said they had, but if his colleagues could not substantiate the statement the Honse would see it was a repetition of the fable of the wolf and the shepherd. He never heard such a humiliating proposal as to pension one Superintendent and pay the others to the end of their term. The system proposed was repugnant to the instincts of the people of the colony. They were to have agents, nominees of the hon gentleman. Why, it • was an exact copy of the French system of governing by departments. If he knew anything of the cheap and nasty foim of the Timaru local government he would not think it so ridiculous. The Middle Island did not require to be protected in its right. It was strong in possession, strong in a wise Government, and not likely to trust the hon gentleman, whose mind changed as often as the wind. He proposed as an amendment, the previous question. Major Atkinson referred to the contempt with which the last speaker had treated the small provinces, and how he gloried in the large provinces who revelled in land belonging to the whole colony. He denied that Parliament was not competent to deal with the question, and this one was not of today or yesterday. For many years it had been in men’s minds; the mode Government proposed to submit the question to the country was a wise one, and he believed it was the opinion of a majority of the House, as well as of the country, that the proposal was wise, and Southern opposition to it arose from those largely interested in the perpetuation of provincial institutions, which he maintained were not, and never had been local government. The present revenue of Taranaki was £SOOO per year, and yet the country was called upon to perform public services and people the country, and they had a thousand here and there from the Government. The House had no right to place any province in such a position. When-the public works scheme was initiated, that was the beginning of the end. By opening the country and constructing public works, they left nothing for the provinces to do. There was no question that the province he represented could not carry on. Hawke’s Bay, though a little better off, wanted improvement in government. Wellington was sat upon, and demanded justice. Why, justice simply meant to afford colonial money to carry on the essential works of colonisation, it was perfectly open to any provincial Government to levy rates to support the Government in efficiency. Why did they not do so, and if they did, what would the people say? If the ordinary functions of Government were to be carried on some change was required. He could not pledge himself to the details of any measure, but would decide when they were submitted. If Government could have carried out their scheme without being harrassed, the resolutions would not have been introduced. No doubt the ,'provinces did good in their day, but the time had arrived to abolish them. He for one would not be here next session if his constituents disapproved of his action, for he despaired of proper local Government, which was not to be obtained under provincial administration. Mr Curtis said when the Premier objected to the present Government of the North Island, and based his resolution upon the large expenditure in the North Island, he I

failed to show it had been unnecessary or had been in any way connected With Provincial Governments, which, after all, really had little to do with it any more than the Southern Island had to do with the General Government expenditure. A large portion of the money spent in the North Island had been spent chiefly on roads for facilitating the defence policy. He doubted if the hon member could make two pounds out of one by making the North Island revenue bear what it could not now bear. No matter how he managed, experience show’d that the Colonial Government was less economical than the Provincial Governments were. He was not prepared to vote for the abolition of the present system until he saw something to take their place. Besides, how could they know that during the recess the Premier would not have some new scheme entirely, perhaps half a dozen. Look at the past legislation for the whole colony and say what success attended the General Government. Was education, licensing, &c., satisfactory to the whole colony? Provincial institutions might not have done all they might to carry on their ordinary functions. Nor was he aware that any single province did not raise sufficient by local taxation to carry out its ordinary functions. He thought it undesirable to reopen the question of the seat of Government and the compact of 1856, for next year they might easily say—Be it enacted that they be done away with. It was quite possible they did something to advance the progress of the colony, and what was the colony but the united provinces. The only difference was one of administration. When the bon gentleman informed them that the provinces always wanted money to enable them to discharge their ordinary functions, he forgot that the colony constantly came to the Assembly for loans. This uncalled for and agitation discussion might revive the old cry of separation, however impossible that was. The hon member distinctly admitted that he would take the land fund of the North Island. What could prevent him doing the same by the South, once the principle was admitted. It was not long since the North Island was the most flourishing; and it might not be many years before it was again. He believed if the resolution was carried, and the measure based upon it carried, the South Island must soon follow in the footsteps of the North, and thus lead to endless agitation. He would oppose the resolution. Mr McGillivray had been opposed to Provincial Government since 1871. He had on the same grounds supported Mr Reynold’s motion that it was better to have two provinces than nine. He quoted the words of the Premier of years ago to show that the idea had been floating through his mind many years. The fact was many provinces were in such a state that if not abolished they would abolish themselves. They should either place them in a capacity to do their work, or sweep them away altogether. Provincialism operated injuriously in disintegrating that feeling of unity which should exist. He congratulated the Government upon their moral courage in facing this fearful hydra of the vested interests of thorough provincialists, which had grown up around them. He was dissatisfied with the outline of the future local Government of the North Island as shadowed forth by the Premier. Mr Thomson opposed the resolution. He considered the questions of the seat of Government and the compact of 1556, quite inapropos. The seat of Government was not likely to be discussed again unless a fire or an earthquake destroyed the Goyernment buildings, and legislation regarding the compact, was so plain that he who ran could read. The resolution should be stripped of these additions. The Government also conveyed a threat of dissolution. That was irregular and unconstitutional. They should keep that to themselves, and as he was certain the Premier would not have made such announcement without the Governor’s leave, and he thought the House should be informed upon that point, as the House would not express as free and independent an opinion, while the threat of dissolution hung over it. If depression existed in the North Island, the gentleman at the head of the Government was alone responsible. Wellington, August 18. In the House of Representatives yesterday evening, The debate was resumed by Mr Thompson : He maintained that the impecuniosity of the North Island provinces was solely due to the way in which the Premier had managed the capitation allowance. The Premier did not yet tell the House whether he had the Governor’s sanction for a dissolution (hear) ; the present resolution was intimidating in its character, and many North Island members were deterred from voting against it because they were afraid that their provinces would receive no assistanoe. It was absurd to talk of colonial money being spent on the North Island provinces ; was not all the money so spent borrowed money. The South Island provinces, however, did not want more expenditure than they derived legitimately. It was no reason because Wellington was a thorn in the flesh of the General Government that the provinces should be abolished. The colony had now its hands full, and this work was premature ; it was not in any way urgent enough to demand a dissolution, he proposed to postpone the question in order to give the colony an opportunity to discuss the whole question on its merits. Although not in the same boat with the Premier, he did not want the Ministry to resign, and was sorry that the Premier was overworked—his colleagues were of little assistance to him. He had to bear all the work, and the Ministry certainly wanted recoustructiod, — Mr G. B. Parker objected to a member reading his speech. The Speaker thought he was only refreshing his memory by notes. Mr Thompson thought it better to look at occasional notes than not to speak at all. Why had not the House been informed of this intention either in the Governor’s speech or in the financial statement. He supported the previous question. A long pause then ensued. Mr J. L. Gillies asked, why then was this diffidence among the Government supporters in following the opposition speakers? Were they relying solely upon their majority ? This was a confession of weakness. The Premier bad said that he approached such grave questions with diffidence, but this was pitchforked before the House, and on the spur of the moment, apparently begotten of an ebullition of temper, in consequence of the justifiable opposition on the Forests Bill. It was outraging common sense to try to make the members believe that the * question concerned the North Island only. Carry this and the South Island must suffer

the same fate in a short time. What was the practical effect of carrying the icsolution but to throw the Government of the colony into the hands of selfish capitalists. Was this the rest that the Premier had promised the colony last year. Including the four million loan authorised this year, the colony had borrowed twelve millions. This was a strange way of resting, truly. Talk of the economy of central administration, Otago spent £579,000, with a departmental expenditure of £3950. The General Government spent in Otago in the same time £106,000, with a departmental expenditure of £6987. He would boldly challenge comparison. As for their land revenue, the General Government could take it if it would only give them their ordinary revenue. Who was greatest advocate of getting rid of their lands to prevent the General Government appropriating them ? Why, the present Commissioner of Customs, when in the Provincial Council. Let them pass this resolution and they would be told, as they bad been before, that the need of the colony was greater than the need of the provinces, and they would take the land revenue from them. Let the Government withdraw this hybrid scheme, and let the constituencies declare their wishes. In a few more years the provinces would abolish themselves naturally; as yet it was premature. After some delay, nobody getting up to speak. Mr MACANDRBW suggested an adjournment. He was not ready, and the Government supporters did not seem inclined to speak. T. Gillies seconded the motion. Messrs Maclean and O’Connor opposed it.

TAKAMOANA objected to doing away with the Superintendents. He believed in two Parliaments ; with only one, troubles would never cease, except when the Maoris had died out.

Katenb considered the resolution a good one. Why should two Legislatures eat up the flesh of the colony ? Could not this colony, in the same way as others, do with one Government. He knew of the evil of two Governments by experience. Mr Reid made a long speech in opposing the resolution. No good reasons could be given for the resolution. Why commit themselves to a barren resolution that probably would never come to anything 7 The North Island provinces were poor, but in a few years would have more revenue than the Colonial Government had. As to the expenditure of money the General Government talked of, they would have spent it to considerably greater advantage. Why cavil about names f Let them make countries, road boards, and they could not get along without a controlling central one, and that would be equivalent to a province, and be more expensive than the present ones. He predicted the scheme proposed would result in utter failure. The great objection to the scheme was that the departmental expenditure would be doubled, and the power of the general legislature would be dangerously increased. He was confident that the North Island people would revolt at the idea being governed by a Government agent, under secretarys, and engineers. He did not so much object to experimental legislation but objected to tampering with the sacred constitution. He quoted a lengthy extract from a speech of Mr Vogel in 1868 in defence of the constitution and provinces. He would vote for the previous question. On the motion of Mr Macandrew, the debate was adjourned at 11.30,