STATE FORESTS BILL.

Globe, Volume I, Issue 62, 12 August 1874, Page 3

STATE FORESTS BILL.

The following is the report taken from the " New Zealand Times," of Mr Vogel's speech in reply, on the second reading of the State Forests Bill, in which he refers to the conduct of the Provincial Government of Wellington, aud to the large colonial expenditure in the North Island for provincial purposes, as affording reasons for the abolition of the provinces:— Mr Vogel said that he. had uot a Very easy task to reply to the many speeches that had been made upon the subject, because they had been of a very discursive nature, and the objections various in their kind. In many cases the objections had _ really resolved themselves more into questions not affecting the Bill or its objects, but affecting other matters, particularly the great question of Provincialism. He would; however, refer to some of the speeches, and first of all he would endeavor to reply to those made last week. Those made to-day did not contain very much new matter, but were merely a repetition of those made on the previous occasion. The objections of the member for Wairarapa were a mild edition of the speech of the member for the Hutt. He was glad to find the first mentioned hon gentleman less bitter, and speaking in a better temper than the member for the Hutt, but the burden of their song was the same ; the measure was one of confiscation, it was proposed by it to make away with a quantity of land, and Wellington was the particular province most affected, and Wellington was to lose 210,000 acres. By and bye he would have a great deal to say upon the City of Wellington question. And before proceeding further, he must say that it seemed a rather good joke to try to place Wellington in the position of a martyr, when 220,000 acres were two years ago voluntarily relinquished by the House to Wellington, over which the colony had security for the construction of its railways. This was the result of allowing a portion to be taken back of the very large estate which the colony had very liberally provided, and he failed to see any cause for this martyrdom that had been so obtruded before their eyes. Of course, there came from the member for Wairarapa the same complaint that was always heard'from the number for the Hutt, of not being allowed to spend as much money as he could borrow, and of borrowing as much as he could. The question that might be very fairly considered was, whether it was desired that all the land might be disposed of aud no portion kept for the colony, or whether some part of it should be reserved. The member for New Plymouth took exception to some of the figures. It must be borne in mind that it would be impossible to bring forward figures that would be absolutely correct ; all they did was to present an aspect of the subject from which hon members might draw their own deductions. These figures, however, showed beyond question that without some step in the direction proposed, our forests at no very remote period would be entirely destroyed ; and he could not see how any one approaching the subject with an unprejudiced mind could arrive at any other conclusiou. The hon member for New Plymouth ill the same breath that he told the House of the immense forests of Taranaki, and, therefore, that it was unnecessary to preserve them, also told the House that they were comparatively useless, because the Minister for Public Works would not allow them to be used for the timber required for the railways. It seemed to him if those forests were comparatively useless was it not a strong argument to endeavor to keep some small portion—and three per cent was a small proportion not only for present use but for use in the future. The member for Manawatu gave the Bill a leftdianded support. That hon gentleman also came forward with his usual characteristic complaint about people not being allowed to make enough money, and being unjustly deprived of a great deal of money by having to pay so much Customs duties, and so much of other things. He (Mr Vogel) thought the general opinion would be that the people of New Zealand were getting quite sufficient money, and were very fortunate in being in that position. But there was such a thing as being too greedy. Amoug those who were benefitting by the prosperity of the country, were some who, a few years ago would not ;,have dreamed of carrying on the businesses they were now carrying on ; who now in a single week did an amount of business which they had not hoped to carry on in a month before. They should be content, even if we had to pay more money for the support of the Government of the country. Ore result was the very large returns which that expenditure brought in its train. No clonbt, with no public works there would have been less expenditure, less cost, less taxation, and perhaps less amounts would have been required ; but he thought if a balance was struck it would be found to be a profit for individuals. The hon member said he would vote for the Bill, because he looked upon it as a means of upsetting the compact of 185 G. He could not congratnlate the hon member on the reasons that induced him to give the vote ; nor did he think, if the hon member would allow him to say so, that he would have felt proud of the character of a firebrand. The hon member not only came down and eudeavored to persuade lion members that the policy was such as should disturb the compact of 1856, but went a step further, and assumed that that must be the result ; and at once gave the Pill bis vote. He really wished the hon gentleman would not give his vote on the ground stated by him. The member for Wellington City (Mr Hunter") voted against the Bill on the ground that the Colonial Government had its hands f nil enough already. That hon member did not want the provinces and Provincial Governments to be interfered with. He (Mr Vogel) had before stated in the House that it was desirable the Provincial aud the General Governments should each perform its allotted duties. But there might be a boundary line beyond which it might be found more easy for the General Government absolutely to take charge itself, than to be substantially performing all the duties. He had only to cite Wei ington to cause the reflection in every 1 on. member's mind whether or not it would hi more easy for the Government to perform the duties of the province of Wellington than to have to watch the conduct of the province, and be constantly on the alert against demands of a class that it was very difficult to deal with. For his part, he would rather undertake the duties oE a constable than of a detective. When the General Government got drawn into the position of having to perform both duties,

the question naturally arose which of the evils should be chosen. But he would have more to say on this question anon ; he only referred to it now because it naturally arose in replying to the hon member for Wellington City's remark that the Government had got quite enough to do. He (Mr Vogel) agreed that it had quite enough to do, without having to look after provinces which should be able to look after themselves. The Superintendent of Otago (the hon member for Port Chalmers) also opposed the Bill, but purely on the provincial ground that the provinces could take charge of the matter, and were better able to do so. This was an argument the House had often heard before and upon somewhat similar occasions. He (Mr Vogel) had often stated before that if they had been only dealing with the Provinces of Otago and Canterbury he might haye been able to agree with very much of what the hon gentkman had said, as to the aid which those provinces could exercise. But they were dealing, not with one or two provinces, but with the whole colony; and this Bill was essentially proposed in the interest of the colony. That there was occasion for alarm that hon member was prepared to admit; and he (Mr Vogel) thought there was evidence on the point before the House. (The hon gentleman here read an extract from Mr Innes s report.; He went on to say that when introducing the Bill he distinctly stated that the idea of the Government was not to under take the charge of forests that were being worked; and that they strictly endeavored and desired to guard themselves against any interference with the timber interests of the country. The idea was to obtain and set apart for future use a small portion of the country in the shape of State forests, which would be of value and use to those who came after us. He denied altogether that they wanted to interfere with the licenses to cut timber annually granted by the Provinces, and that they wished to rob the provinces of any revenues they obtained from persons who were allowed to cut timber in the forests now being worked. Many of those who objected to the Bill were either not able, or were unwilling to draw the distinction between bush which it was desirable should be cleared away, and forest land which it was desirable should be preserved. He could only say that in the absence of that distinction, they were arguing about different thiDgs. He was not at all an advocate for preserving useless timber, and so preventing the settlement of the land ; but that was widely different from destroying valuable timber that had taken centuries to mature. A favorite argument was that the industries of the people should not be interfered with ; and it was used to some extent by the member for Manawatu. Those who used it were quite prepared to allow the State to interfere with many questions they deemed practicable, and particularly with interests they favored. Their objection was a theoretical one, but the moment they got beyond that, they saw ample reasons for the thing. Those who really complained were amongst those who supported such a policy which gave a denial to any abstract theory on the subject. After noticing the speeches of the member for Rodney, Mr Vogel observed that a speech that called for his warm acknowledgment was that delivered by the member for Timaru. To the statement that had been made that that speech was the cause of the Government urging on the Bill beyond the extent to which they originally intended, he gave a denial. The Bill was bi ought down under circumstances that left no doubt in hon members minds that it commanded the very warm support of the Government. At the same time he stated that the question was of such a very large nature that it was possible the House might not see its way to go on with it this session. [Hear.] He had no idea of coming down with the Bill merely to amuse hon members; nor was there any amusement in going to the trouble of preparing the Bill or the papers that accompanied it; but it might have been quite possible that hon members who might have been favorable to the Bill would have preferred giving to it a larger consideration than the present session —[hear] —hence the remarkhe made upon the subject. But as in the interval members had given it a great deal of study, and there appeared to be a st»ong party in the House to support the Bill, the Government were anxious if possible to produce the best measures.and he hoped members would see their way to assist the Government. There was much said by the member for Timaru with which he agreed That hon member said, even if the House did not agree with the details of the Bill, it ought at any rate to commit the Colony to undertaking the establishment of State forests. The preamble of the Bill expressed in a few words the whole principle upon which the Government deemed it a necessity to ask the House to look upon the question as one of urgency and importance. The Bill was prepared with the greatest possible care, though it dealt with the difficult question of dealing with a Colonial matter in a manner that would be satisfactory and pleasant to the Provinces. It was after long consideration that the plan adopted was adopted—a plan that Beemed most free from those objections which he was quite willing to admit it would have been impossible to avoid altogether, viz, the objections of those who take an extreme view upon the Provincial question. He agreed with the hon member for Timaru, that the real opposition to the Bill had proceeded from those who had adopted extreme provincial views. (Hear.) One hon. gentleman went the length of saying that he would support the Bill because he saw £IO,OOO would be spent amongst the provinces. The hon. member for Waikouaiti wished to employ criminals in preserving the forests, and wished to bring science to the aid of bushranging ; or wanted to learn bushrangers forest-ranging. (Laughter.) One notable exception in respect of the opposition given to the Bill, was that given by the hon. member for Auckland (Mr T. B. Gillies) —opposition that could not be said to be open to the objection that it was based on provincial grounds. It was not statesmanlike to refuse to see any merit in any proposal made by an adversary ; and in this respect the hon. member for Timaru was notably distinguished from Mr Gillies. The letter's annoyance was not at having to oppose the Bill because it was his duty to do so ; but at not knowing on what grounds to oppose, and he did so by opposing its character. The only substantial opposition was on the ground that there was some occult or mysterious design. The most curious feature of the discussion was that the Bill should have been opposed by mining members, who never seemed to be tired of seeking the assistance of the colony as against the Provinces. Ho now came to the speech of the member for the Hutt. Although that hon member was not in the House, he (Mr Vogel) would ctrtainly not consider him-

self precluded from speaking freely iu his absence, as no doubt some kind friend would convey to him what he (Mr Vogel) was about to say. and anticipate his remarks appearing in "Hansard." He was sorry that the bitterness shown by the member for the Hurt, when he addressed the Houseontheßill should nothave been discharged on some more suitable occasion. The hon gentleman considered the Bill as an attack upon the Province of Wellington, and sneered at the idoa of looking forward to thirty years hence, saying that we should all be dead by that time. [Laughter.] It seemed to him (Mr Vogel) that when the hour came for all men the feeling would be one of less satisfaction if public duties had been performed without leaving any legacy to those who came after us • but on the contrary there would be greater satisfaction if those public duties left behind them their trace or mark. The commencement of public works must have been "made in a few years, whether in 1869 or 1879 : the country could not be left without pnblic works, but the destruction of timber and the failure to provide other in its place was not a matter that could be remedied even after any long period of time. This was a question that affected the futurerauch more intimately and to a mnch larger extent than the question of hurrying on public works. That was his own feeling, and he thought many hon members would agree with him. The extent of land asked for by the Bill had no doubt been carefully calculated by the member for the Hutt ; it amounted to about two million acres. The province of Otago, in the brief space of about six weeks, about two years ago, appropriated for a variety of purposes an extent of country larger than was asked for State forests for New Zealand. The member for the Hutt noted that the Bill was an insidious attempt to obtain 210,000 acres of the beat land of Wellington. That hon member appeared to be so accustomed to Ways that are dark and Tricks that are vain that, without apology, he took it for granted that the Government were actuated by motives like himself, and assumed that the Bill was not what it purported to be, but intended to deceive the House and the country. There was some excuse for the hon gentleman holding such an opinion ; we were too prone to judge other people by ourselves. The proposal of the Bill was not to take within Wellington or anyother province any land that had acquired exceptional value, but merely land suitable for State forests, and lands suitable as endowments for State forests. And in respect of the desire of the Government to rob the provinces of their heritage, the Government did not want to take one acre that had not been purchased by the colony and made over as a free gift to the provinces during the last three years. It was not very difficult to trace the opposition of the member for the Hutt. It proceeded from the very painful duty of the present Government to restrain him in the exercise of his Provincial powers. The policy of the Superintendent and Provincial Secretary of Wellington was to do their best to get the Province into financial difficulties, and then to come to the Assembly for assistance. There was no possible excuse for the Province of Wellington being in difficulties, except the restrained power of expenditure without reference to payment. It was only three years since that the Colony discharged all the debts of the Province then disclosed; paid off the bank overdraft, and liabilities arising from the Province appropriating the funds of the Savings' Bank depositors, through not keeping a separate account, and paid off the liability in respect of the small farms that were never purchased. [Laughter.] In addition to these the colony paid off the arrears on surveys, and paid half the survey staff for a considerable time afterwards. There had been no failure of revenue to account for the province getting into such difficulties. In 1871 the land revenue was £14,400 ; in 1872, £26,000 ; in 1873,£51,000 ; and the revenue from ordinary sources in 1871, £13,600, in 1872, £19,500, and in 1873, £30,000. With this increase of revenue, what excuse was there for the province coming to the House complaining of the cruelty of the General Government and the Colony. It was the duty of provincial governments to carry on their works in proportion to their means, but if the policy was to be recognised that no matter what is their position the means of provinces are to be exhausted, then we would simply have a repetition of the policy of the colony with Wellington. He was rather amused the other day on reading the report of the Wellington Education Board meeting, at what a member of the Board, also a member of the House, snggested—that the Board should (postpone the consideration of how to meet its undischarged liabilities until after the Colonial Treasurer had made his Financial Statement. [Laughter.] Then there was another meeting of the Board yesterday, when it was explained that so much was coming out of the loan to discharge the Board's liabilities, but the chairman said all the advance obtained would be required to repay the bank overdraft. If they were thus going to deal with provinces like Wellington, with increasing revenues, it would be very much less trouble for the Colonial Government to take charge rather than have to look after the matter in this way. [Cheers.] He would like to apply a metaphor to the Superintendent of Wellington. There was a tree, a most valuable and useful tree, not sightly or savoury, but with peculiar properties ; no other tree could grow near it, for it was so ravenous and ferocious. This was the blue gum. His hon friend, the member for the Hutt, was par excellence the blue gum of New Zealand. [Loud laughter.] There was a small tree alongside him, which was represented by the member for Wairarapa. He told the member for the Hutt that the Bill was brought down bona fide and in the full belief that the House had again and again expressed a wish that the Government should deal with the subject, and in the strong belief that it was one that demanded the imperative and most earnest consideration of the Legislature of the country. To the conduct of the Provincial Government of Wellington during the recess, and the speech of the member for the Hutt, might be attributed any consequence that might arise in the opposite direction to what that hon. member advocated. Since they were put to it, the Government would have to consider Wellington and the North Island as a whole (hear), —to see whether it was not possible that the Government might be more relieved by being directly respon sible for the good government of the province, than indirectly responsible, as now. (Cheers.) He held in his hand a statement showing the amount of the expendiline of the General Government on the province of Wellington during the years 1809 to 1574,

five years ; and hon. members would !be startled to know that the total expenditure by the colony, or by means provided by it through loans, has been no less than £770,9:59. As the return of the revenue of Wellington was only made up for three years he would compare the three years. The provincial amounts were —received from land, £92,000 ; from provincial revenue, £(53,000, or a total of £156,000, During three years the colony spent in Wellington £023,000 as against £15(5,0p0 provided by the province itself. The peace of mind of the members of the General Government had also to be considered, forhe could not conceive a more disagreeable position than living in a city where the lesser Government makes it its business to do all it possibly can to teach every man, woman, and child in the place, that the colony was their natural enemy. He knew of a case where some small sum—£s or £10 —was asked for by the Provincial Government, and the reply was "Really, we have no doubt about your claim. Mr Vogul is doing all he can to make the province bankrupt and we must be just beforejwe are geuerous." [Laughter.] Just fancy living in a town where this kind of thing was going on 1 If they were to have the extra duties to perform, they had better do them ; but he would rather be a constable than a detective. He would rather know what duties he had to perform, than to be constantly under a sense of painfulncss about what was really taking place around him. After what had been done for Wellington, it was shameful ingratitude on the part of the Superintendent of Wellington to come down and make such charges against the General Government and the colony which had done so much to advance the interests of the province. Let them look at these things. He had a statement of the expenditure on immigration. Dp to June 30th last, £1(52,000 had been spent, of which amount Wellington obtained £83,000, against £79,000 for the rest of the North Island. Then £5,575,000 was altogether voted for railway purposes, of which Wellington, with about one-tenth the revenue and a tenth of the population of the colony, had already been voted £644,000 for railways ; besides which the Government had asked £112,000 for the line to Wanganui, £30,000 for the Masterton and Foxton line, £50,000 for the Patea-Wanganui line ; and provision would have to be made for Wanganui-Manawatu, one of the gaps not yet completed, for which something like £300,000 would have to be voted this or some year. And that was the manner the colony was assisting this poor province they all were so inclined to sit upon. This was the province the House was asked to shed tears over, and the condition of {which the member for the Hutt so pathetically described. (Laughter.) Then on North Island roads there had up to June last, been expended £368,000, of which £IIB,OOO was spent in the Province of Wellington. This was not provincialism as understood in the great Provinces of the Middle Island. With the armed constabulary in Auckland, and that Province looking to the Assembly for help in the matter of education, what remains to be done by the Colony which it would not do as well as the Provinces ? These were reflections forced upon them when these complaints were made. Taking the North Island question altogether, he found that the Colonial allowance for Provincial purposes—the expenditure in the North Island by the Colony—for the five years ended June last was £3,389,000; and during the past three years £2,387,000, while the total revenue raised by the Provinces in the Island during that time was £448,000. If these figures were not suggestive, he would be very much surprised; at any rate, they were eminently so to his mind. When he was told that the establishment of State forests in the North Island was inconsistent with the maintenance of Provincialism in the Island, it seemed to him to be necessary to abolish the provinces. [Loud "hears."] The country suffered very much from three disturbing causes, and the sooner they were settled by Act the better. One was separation ; the other, the seat of Government ; and the third, the compact of 1856. It was necessary that these should be settled ; that it should be clearly understood that the compact of 1856 was one which, under no circumstances, could the colony honorably depart from—[cheers] —and the sooner it was ratified by Act, and not left to depend upon a mere resolution, the better. They were placed before their eyes as very tempting morsels, and there was a desire to seize them. The separation question was a chimera, such as nurses used in their stories of bogies and ghosts. There was no prospect of separation in our time or by our aid. (Hear.) He stated now, as he had not been afraid to state in Auckland, that he looked upon the seat of Government as settled. He was one of those who were dissatisfied with the removal of the seat of Government from Auckland, voted against it, and would do the same again if the same question came over again. He always held that the Wanganui war was one of the causes of the removal of the seat of Government. But there was now no remote or possible contingency of the matter being re-opened, nor did he think the colony desired to have the seat of Government removed from Wellington. After dealing with some other matters, the Premier went on to refer to the Bill, and said much ridicule had been cast upon the Government for their idea to spend £IO,OOO a year on two million acres. He was sorry if he had not been sufficiently explicit at the former sitting. The two million acres proposed to be taken was of a mixed character. They did not ask for land of exceptional value on account of its position, or which would be required for immediate settlement. He objected and argued strongly against the colony being outlawed from dealing with a small portion of the lands for this work, when the provinces were able to make large gifts for quasi public purposes. In conclusion, he said that as the Government did not desire to prolong the session, unless it met the views of members, he was willing to propose some alterations in the Bill. He proposed introducing what the member for Timaru said they should, a clause to commit the House to the establishing of State Forests, by a yearly payment for that purpose, and authority to the Government to obtain skilled assistance, and power given to manage the forests. He was willing that the Bill for this year should be like Hamlet with the part of Prince of Denmark left out. The Act should appear precisely as it was, but the proportion of land to be comprised in State forests should be taken out. He did this to give the provinces an opportunity of showing what they would do on their own behalf. He did not hesitate to say that if the provinces failed to provide Stiite forests it would be the duty of the colony to insist upon the acquisition of them.