GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume I, Issue 54, 1 August 1874, Page 2

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

(Ter Anglo-Australian Press Telegraph Agency.') Wellington, July 31. In the Legislative Council, The Hon Hr Pollen briefly moved the second reading of the Constitution Amendment Bill.

The Hon ( aptain Kenny then moved that the Bill be referred to a select committee, which was negatived.

The Hon Boijeut Camruell moved that the Bill be read that day six months. Mr Menzies said that the object*) of the Bill was to neutralise the opinion of the Council. The Bill was calculated to undermine the influence of the Council.

Mr Waterhouse said he did not regard the Bill with feelings of apprehension, and looked upon it as a piece of political bunkum. That the Government were not sincere, was shown by their bringing it forward so late in the session.

Dr Pollen thought the Council were taking a selfish view of the subject, and had not looked beyond the Council. Not a single member had assailed the policy of the Bill.

The amendment that the Bill be read a second time that day six months was carried by 25 to 8. Mr Waterhouse, in moving the second reading of the Deceased Wife’s bisters’ Bill, said it was useless in the present state of feeling of the Council to adduce any arguments.

Mr STOKES moved an amendment that the Bill be read a second time that day six months.

The amendment was briefly seconded by Mr lion in.son.

Mr Gray was in favor of any measure giving greater liberty, and should vote for the Bill.

Mr Mantell had supported the measure before, and would do so again. Existing prejudices had been overcome, and the time would come when the measure would pass. Mr Menzies entered at length into Scriptural arguments against the Bill. Colonel Brett had promised his dear wife to vote against the measure, as she had a handsome sister of whom she was jealous.

The amendment was carried by 18 to 11. In the House of iiepreseutatives to-day in committee, The Premier moved the introduction of several new clauses in the Imprisonment for Debt Abolition Bill, prohibiting the power of committal for non-payment in certain cases. Committals may be made to a public prison, and imprisonment is not to operate as extinguishment oi the debt. The Bill was reported with amendments, and passed. The adjourned debate of the New Zealand Forests Bill was resumed by Mr Sheehan. He was convinced that the subject was of sufficient importance to justify the great labor which had been bestowed on it by the Premier during the races-, but he was also convinced that there was little chance of the measure becoming law. But as to the vast stores of information compiled, much of it was utterly useless and not worthy of storage compared with the means adopted in the colony. In timber working they were ages in advance of the German system. Much needless alarm had been raised about the pernicious effects of clearing forests. France and Switzerland were once nearly wholly clothed with forests, and since a great portion had been cleared away the climate had been absolutely improved. So it had been in Greece. He doubted much whether the ancient empires once founded in_the East owed their decline to the denudation of timber. From his personal observation, and other sources of information, he felt bound to say that the estimates submitted of the disappearance of New Zealand forests was much exaggerated. Besides he thought it almost impossible to conserve native forests unless they were fenced in, because wherever cattle, sheep, and European grasses found their way the forests gradually disappeared. The scheme, moreover, if carried out, would have a most injurious effect upon the settlement of the colony generally, especially upon a large number of people in Auckland who existed by the export trade of timber, and should be benefiting America, New Caledonia, and other islands from which timber would be imported to this colony. To show the extent to which the timber trade was carried on in Auckland, he would mention that one million feet per week were turned out from one mill. With regard to the effect of denuding timber upon climate, he considered that clearing tea-tree and other scrub had a worse effect regarding Hoods than large forest trees had. He agreed that timber should not be treated as recklessly as had been the case. He was happy to say that in Auckland it was no longer competent for a man to pay pay £~>, and go into the bush anti cut what timber he liked. A good deal could be done to prevent the wanton destruction in other ways. Gum diggers, for instance, were in the habit of burning away scrub, and thereby causing great destruction of forests. He thought the existing highway system might bo made available so as to prevent useless destruction in localities where the highway system was in operation, and that was more or less all over the colony. It might not he possible to preserve the native forests, except in inaccessible places, but they might replace them to a great extent by planting American and Australian trees. The csta blishraeut of a College for the study of forestry was far in advance of the requirements of the colony. Looking round the settled parts of the colony, it would be seen that settlers were partially making amends for the native trees they destroyed by planting other trees. He agreed with the Bill so far as it concerned the protection of their forests, but would reserve the right of opposing many of its clauses. Considering the ’’very large amount of agitation the Bill had already received throughout the colony, the safest and best course would be to accept the second reading, and after ventilation, then bring down more suitable measures next session.

Mr Trike opposed the Bill as unnecessary in a colony where the ground was cumbered with timber.

Mr Cuthkertson, while admitting that the country was indebted to the Premier for bringing the subject forward, thought fuller consideration should be reserved for a future session.

Mr Thomson considered the subject most important. The Waste Land Board of Otago had recognised this and acted accordingly. The Bill was not such as he would have expected, as the digest of a vast store of information on the subject which the Premier evidently possessed. In that respect the Bill was very short. He was doubtful about the scheme of planting new forests. As an experiment he had no objection to seeing a few hundred acres planted as a forest, but he failed to see the use of establishing a college and bringing out two or three high salaried gentlemen to teach forestry. He was opposed to the mixing up of the question of forests with public works and their national debt. He objected to the idea of paying off the national debt out of forests in twenty years, or any other period. He doubted, in fact, whether they should ever pay it off, though, when the population increased the head money might not amount to much.

Mr CARRINGTON supported the second reading. He would suggest that the matter be not proceeded with further, and that during the recess the various Superintendents be communicated with as to the forests of the various provinces, and asked to report, showing by a colored map the extent of the different forests.

Mr Bryce, while admitting that the Premier deserved the thanks of the country for the able manner he brought the subject forward, reminded the House that the Timber Floatage Bill, of the very opposite tenor to the Forest Bill, found its stringent supporter in the present Premier. Much of the information gathered was quite inapplicable to the circumstances of their case. He doubted whether the native forests could in all cases be protected. If they cut a road through and drain white pine forests, nothing could save them. Altogether he thought the Government too paternal. If it was to peoples interests to preserve their forests they would do it- Government should allow private individuals to manage their own affairs. He had no particular wish to oppose the second reading, but would prefer the matter left to a future occasion. The present Bill was no use.

Mr O’Neill could not agree with that view. He disagreed with the hon member for Koduey that Hr Hector’s estimate of the destruction of timber was overstated, and he was guided by his own personal observations, go where they would they would sec forests Jittered with waste timber, ready for tlie first tire to sweep all away. The Buperiotendents had already been applied to for information upon the subject, and all, except the Otago Superintendent, failed to give any. No doubt the felling of forests indiscriminately seriously injured the climate. One valley in France that once supported a population of over twenty thousand was now a desert of shingle. He was convinced that a large income to the colony could be secured by the judicious management of forests. He hoped the House would second the efforts of the Premier towards the conservation of forests.

Mr. Gibbs thought it almost impossible to conserve their forests, and while they wanted timber they ought to use what was to their hands instead of importing. He thought the planting of settlements in forests was not the way to conserve them. The only way to secure a future supply of timber was by planting a new forest. Mr Wales thought legislation in this direction immediately remunerative. But it would be much better that the subject be delayed with the view of arranging that provinces should assume the control of the forests instead of the colony. A great deal might be done at once in preventing timber being cut at an immature stage of growth, and at an improper season of the year. He was confident the destruction of forests was going on seriously, because he learned that on land which had passed into private hands onequarter of the timber had already been destroyed. As far as he could observe the native forests failed in the way of natural increase by self-sowing. This made it clear that some steps should be taken to stop their rapid decay. Mr Stafford, in an eloquent speech, supported the second reading. So thoroughly did he believe iu the Bill, that he would sooner put it on the Statute Book with all its imperfections, and even supposing every clause required amending, than see it shelved for future legislation. The Government could carry the measure if it desired, and he hoped the Premier would show that he was in earnest by pressing it upon the House. Why cry out that it interfered with the provinces; they had already shown that they could not carry out such'grcat schemes as this; and were they some little god almighty that the colony must bow down to if they objected to the Bill, Excepting Otago they had all shown the cold shoulder to the request of the Premier for information upon the question. Some of the provinces undoubtedly could deal with the matter unassisted, but the financial statement showed that the majority of them were asking the colony for aid to carry out their ordinary functions ; as to ridiculing the idea of a scientific college, without it, the whole schema would fail. For climatic reasons alone they should pass the Bill and make a commencement. He had Oy personal observation seen a fertile and populous valley on the Phone, depopulated and converted into a desert of shingle, by the mountains adjacent being denuded of the timber. lie hoped that the Government would show a willingness to accept any bona fide amendments, and invite the co-operation of the provinces. Already the colony was going to Oregon for sleepers for railways. Granted that the Kauri forests of Auckland would last thirty years ; but after that, what then ! No new kauri was growing up to replace the old. Messrs Wakefield, G. B. Parker, and McGlashan supported the second reading. Mr.) L. Gillies regarded it as an open attempt to wrest from the provinces the control of 3 per cent of the land of the colony. In any case they were the most competent bodies to carry out such a scheme. He had good reason to doubt the accuracy of the figures given as to the rapid disappearance of the forests ot the colony. Mr Richardson supported the Bill.

Mr Thomas Gillies made a bitterly hostile speech. He denounced the question as being one between the provinces and the colony. He doubted much of the mass of facts and figures which had been adduced. The denudation of forests was not always injurious—it sometimes proved beneficial as in a forest-covered province like Auckland, lie thought, tree-planting might bo required on the treeless plains of Canterbury. The General Government had too much to do without looking after the forests of the whole colony. As to computations of any probable income from conserved forests, any of them might make such calculations regarding our oyster-beds, as to make it appear you could

derive revenue enough from them to pay off the national debt of England. The Bill would give the Government powers which should be in the hands of the House only. The only reason why they were sending to Oregon for timber, was because of the viciousness of our native land laws in locking up the kauri forests of Auckland. Such Bills were easily put on the statute-book ; there was no difficulty in getting them, especially when they provided for salaries. The Bill held out this cunning bait, but he hoped the colony would refuse to take it. Mr Fitzherbert made a long'aud characteristic speech, condemning the measure as one—however disguised—which practically meant taking away from the control of the provinces the control of two million acres, including the most valuable of their land, without affording any equivalent. He had no objection to experimenting on the conservation of the forests, but this was like making a model the same size as the ship you intended to construct.

Mr Reader Wood concurred in all that fell from the member for the Hutt, and he made an effective speech against the Bill; and, while agreeing with its principles, he wished it relegated for more serious consideration.

Mr MURRAY moved the adjournment of the debate.

A petition has been presented from over 1500 inhabitants of Wellington, praying that the Premier’s Licensing Amendment Bill be passed without any material alteration. Mr Atkinson has got leave of absence for ten days. Mr Fox presented the petition signed by the chairman of a public meeting in Christchurch, praying that the existing licensing law be maintained in its integrity. The House rose at half-past twelve.