PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Globe, Volume I, Issue 21, 24 June 1874, Page 3

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Tuesday, June 23. The Speaker .tppk the .dbair ; afc,s p.m. Sir Cracroft Wilson presented a petition, Bigned by 72 stockowners, graziers, runholders. &C, praying, tha| an,alteration-migM< beinadte Bakaia bridge, so far as rescinding the regulation that .ia<jri£iT/BhouldL&o mViront of Bheep and cattle being driven over the bridge. The petition was read and received. Mr T. 8. a'anfiredvprtesentedrnH petition from a number of settlers in the Cokahu, Waitohj,]fns Teffiukaf the necessity for the erection of the Epworth bridge . oYe^bQ,river n . r ; (l [ gj ,r->i.i' ■ » MX,'K. presented a petition from. ce^a^ the Miliprd district, relative Vihe'X'ower Opihi bridge. The petition was read and received. v.. rn , 4 /- a ':/;(>•:'/ Mr Maude laid 'a : "number of papers connected with his department on the table. . Mr Jblliei laid/severaf ! o'n'the tablp.. •••■ : ' ,! wjTHbuT'notice., Hon- ; w asked the hon Provincial Secretary whether it would be necessary to place a sum of money on the supplementary estimates, to .defray, the railway fares of members kluring- the recess?' Mr Jollie replied that the Government intended io -place a sum' on-the suppleme'titary estimates for the ..purpose, referred to by the hon membeft '•-'•■--■'■>

DrTuRNBULL asked when the return aB, to to» haulage of goods and carriage of passengers would be laid on the table ?, . Mr Maude; said the Government had n6t had time to prepare the returns this session._ Mr'KHiGHT asked thd 'Government) without notice, what reductions the Government intended to- make on the present passenger charges on the railway. Mr .tfaWijl'isaid theVhdn member had better give notice of motion on the subject. SHEEP COMMITTEE. Sir Wilson intimated that the report of this committee had not yet been up nextlsitiing day.'" ( . BESEKVES.: . ; Mr GRAYasked the ' Secretary for Public "Works whether it is the intention of the Government to. take any. steps,for the settlement of the 'difficulty: which exists' between theßiccarton Road Board and Mr W. Boag as to the.gfayjel/resertes tteaf tolPendalltown road. Mr MA^ DB *^ e Gpyemment intended to coirie to a settlement with Mr Boag by offering to exchange with him a piece of ground between Fehdalitown and, .the Harewood roacfc of the 'same size ' w that now required. The Government had been in f correspondence wittr the 'Road Bpjard on the flubie^tj^d'he yrotild,' call tye attsn#on; of

the House to it. The Government had considered tbe whole matter, and they saw no way but the one proposed. They would make the proposition to Mr Boag, with a view- to carrying out the exchange during the recess. WIDTH OP TIRKS. Mr Knight, to move—" That it is desirable that the Eoad Boards should have power to regulate the width of tires of the. wheels of carriages conveying heavy loads on the roads of the province, in the direction of the provisions of a Bill brought into the House of Representatives last session; that is to say, the width of the tires of all carts, drays, and waggons to be as follows : —Drawn by three horses, not less than three inches ; drawn by four horses, not less than four inches ; drawn by five horses, not less than five inches ; drawn by 6ix horses or more, i not less than six inches. That the above resolution be forwarded to the Canterburymembers of the General Assembly with a.request that ;they will take active steps in the matter." The bill- referred to in the resolution was ;on the table of the Council, and hon members could see f or-themselves that it was short but comprehensive. During the past session, they had voted large sums of money for the 'repairs of roads, which would, to a great extent be obviated by the bringing in •force of an Act such as the one brought linto the Assembly. He would like to ask ;the Provincial Solicitor whether it was in jthe'power of the Council to legislate in, this [matter themselves instead of sending it up jto the Assembly. If that gentleman's opinion was- in favor of this course he (Mr Knight) would withdraw the motion and 'bring in a Bill to carry out the object he sought to achieve. ; Mr Harper seconded- the motion. He hoped that the present Provincial Solicitor would give an opinion in favor of the power of the Council to pass such a Bill. Mr Bluett said that in view of the present liberal reduction made by the Government they would not require the Bill so much ; hdwever he would support it in the Assembly.' ! Mr Joyht said that he had' not had frery much time to consider this matter, but it was his opinion that, no difficulty existed in the Provincial Council passing a' Bill such as that spoken of by the ; hon-member for Lincoln. If the Provincial Council had power to legislate as regarded Road Boards and conservancy of the roads, he was" of opinion that they would be quite' within their powers in passing a Bill to-regulate ■ the width of tires. The hon member for Lincoln would, therefore, be ?'[uite safe in withdrawing hisi motion,and inroducing ; Biil. - {Hear, tieai 4 .]'■;'• As regarded the remark of the hon : member for Belwyn (Mr Bluett) as regarded! the liberality of the Government, that was not' in his (Mr Joynt's) province. [Laughter.j ; ! '•' I Mr Webb said that when (tie Bill was before the General Assembly laflt'session in ftharge of the hon member fbr Avon, a general Opinion was expressed 1 that 1 the Provincial Council had power to regulateittae width of {ires of vehicles passing over the roads. i Sir Cracbofx' Wilson would be quite Willing, to support; a Bjlhsuch as thab>indi-, cated by the hon member for Lincoln. It 4id not, however, follow that because a good measure was sent down that it would pass lihe House ol Representatives, j,... ! Mr W. B. Tosswill said that the speech of the hon member who had just sat down furnished ,an additional,reason why they,in,the Provincial Council, should, if posgibie, §ie Bill themselves.-! [Hear, hear.] ; .' : / ■■■/■ ; 'Mr Kennaway,was,pf,opinion that it was something of upjwhether an Ordinance of the"Provisional,Council was ultra vires or hot. ~An. Ordinance which, by the way, was a transcript of one which had already passed,-had been declared nftraviresj so that it yi;as very hard to,say how far the. powers df Provincial Councils went. '

; Mr..KNiGHT ; Baid that, after the opinion^of the Provincial Solicitor as to the power of the'jPfcMnciai'Obun'cil, he -would ask leave of the* House to withdraw the motion.

Leave was given, and the resolution withdrawn. '•■■' UuiV/uHol EPV/OETJH BRIDGE.- ; IDr Kayner did not move-~the following resolution:—" That his Honor" the Superintendent be respectfully requested ;t6"plaifte- On the supplementary estimates a sum not exceeding £SOOO for carrying out the construction of the EpWbrth bridge, Temuka." ■'' • ""' ' J BATE 0# -ON THE RAILWAY. ;0r .Turnbui/l, moved—" 1. That in determining'the rate of charges for goods and passengers, on the Christchurch and.Lytt|itdn<>line,l the interests upon the cost of the .tunnel should not be carried to account. 2. That in view of' Christchurch being the only inland capital of a ipfrovinceJw in: (New ■ Zealand, the Christchurch and Lyttelton line should, in a large degree, be considered simply as-an" extension of the wharfage accommodation of the port, and the charges reduced! accordingly. 3. That in determining the rate of charges for goods and passengers on the other lines, the province ought to be divided into three circles, with Christchurch as a centre. Within the first: icircle, of say thirty miles from Christchurch, the rate, ought to > be such as will enable the line to compete successfully wjth other ,m.eana of transit. Within the Becond circle, of say sixty miles, the rate of charge ought to be reduced one-third. And .within the third circle a still further reduction ought to be made of say one-half the rate charged within'the first circle." He might say that he regretted very much the absence from that Council of a representative of Christchurch whose mercantile experience rendered him fitted to cope with the subject. He wished to impress upon the Government that it was his opinion the Council should, to some extent at least have a voice in the principle of determining such questions as these. Of course the charges on the railway was an executive matter of detail,.and he did not intend to interfere with that; but he contended that the principle upon which these charges were based was a fair subject of discussion. Here they had no competing lines to take into consideration, and it was a fact that by a reduction.of charges the revenue from the department would be increased. But while he said this, he would ask members to bear in'mind that reduction in charges could not be' carried out with an increase to the revenue in the face of a small population ; but here they had an increasing population, and by a reduction in charges they would induce a still larger use of the lines. If, however, the railways were to be carried on under the incubus of the cost of the Moorhouse tunnel, he thought they would not be doing what was right. He, considered that the time had now come when its cost should charged to the general account of the population of the province, and not as a moans of communication with the. outer

'world. As regarded the. Christchurch and | Lyttelton Hue, he thought that it should be looked upon as an extension of the wharfage accommodation simply,-and the reduction of charges would, irrespective of the goods carried over it, be looked upon a« si greaij boon to the public. Regarding- tb'e third resolution, he thought if they applied oue rule of charging to all the districts they would be doing a great 1 injustice, and i not only that, Inxt they would be to a great extent; arresting 'the spread of settlement and the development of the resources of the province. 80 far as 'regarded the districts lying within thirty ■miles of Christchurch, they came to what was'the settled'districts, and hero he did not the charges shopld be. more than would enable the railway to compete with other means of transit. Beyond this first circle they would be getting into sparsely peopled districts and here the charges should be reduced one-third below that charged to settlerei within the first, circle. \ Beyond this ag:Ua\the;rate -of charges, should. be reduced ■ one-half, and he contended that by this means all the settlers of the province would be placed on a footing of equality as regarded Charges, regulated by the distances he had named.

i Mr W. B. Tosswill said that there was. a number of resolutions comprised in this one, and it would be better in his opinion that they should go into committee on it. He should like to ask the Speaker whether in case he moved that the House go into committee and the motion was lost, he would have an opportunity of speaking on the general question ? The Speaker replied in the affirmative. Mr Tosswill then moved that the House go into committee on the resolution. Mr Higgins seconded the motiori. Mr Webb said that he was of opinion that the charge on the tunnel should be made a provincial one instead of being charged on the railway earnings, which had the effect of ■ rendering the rates higher than would otherwise be the case. It must be remembered also that the Lyttelton and Christchurch line, and particularly the tunnel, was essentially a provincial work, as every package of goods passed over that line.- [ For ph\s reason he hoped thu House would go into committee on the resolution. He might be told by the Government that they were interfering- ■■ with executive functions, but he did not think so, as it was merely an expression-of opinion as to the principle. The motion for going into committee was then put and agreed to. ' In committee, ; Dr Tuenbull moved clause 1.

j Mr- Mo^TGiOME^Y,. could .not exactly un-. derst'anfl What the hon gentleman meant bylaying that the interest on the cost of the tunnel should not be carried to account. He quite agreed with the principle that it was riot necessary that, interest on. the cost of the f' mnel sti6uld tie paid froth the railway itself, ut he would like to |call the attention of hon members to the fact that the amount received for tolls and charges did not by any means cover the interest on the, dost of the work. Asregardedthereduction of the charges, he might say that in 1871-72 there was a general reduction, and the present reduction was quite as great as that. I Mr W. B. Tosswill said that while the .(government called attention to the reduction in 1871-72 they forgot that in some instances im increase of 50 per cent, was made. ! Dr.TURNBULL pointed out that at present it -was d matltfer of impossibility for a mordantile man to know what were the rates of charges. What he wanted to see was the cost and charges of the various lines to be charged to their respective accounts. If an account, clear and comprehensive, were made out for each line, the reductions could be made, and it could be seen at. a glance what amount of reduction could be borne. Mr Maskbll said that he thought the hon member for Christchurch had put his resolutions before the Council in a very vague manner, bo, much so that it would be better for the committed to reject the resolutions, line hon member said that the interest on the cost, of the tunnel should not be carried to account, but he (Mr Maskell) thonght it was incumbent on him to show how the pirovince jfl&s td be recouped for'this'interest, and from what fund he was going to obtain it. Besides this he thought that they would if they passed these resolutions be interfering in ■ executive , details, and, therefore, he thought they would be acting wisely by rejecting them. Mr Jebson said that he considered with the data before them they were quite unable to arrive at a conclusion, or to come to a decision .upon .this question, which 'Was in reality th.e whole root of the railway scheme. They would require to have before them the cost of the whole lines and the items on every special branch of the line, together with the expenses and earnings of the railways. Unless they had this it was utterly impossible to fix a fair rate—a : rate between the Council and the public which would be equitable to all parties. The Hon Mr Buckley could not see the object of these resolutions, which if passed would, ,in his; opinion,; ;hamper the action of the Government. He contended that the railways were not at this moment paying one farthing of interest. They would soon find that the land revenue would only be sufficient to ,meet the current expenses of the, province, and not to contribute towards the interest of the railways. They would then have to work the railways with a view to paying their interest, or else they would have to have recourse to general taxation. Mr W. B. Tosswill said that he was of opinion that these reductions were necessary, and that it would greatly conduce to the settlement of the country if they were carried out. He should therefore support the resolution before the House. Speaker after speaker had told them that their railways were not paying interest, and he himself was of opinion that it was absurd to expect them to pay interest out of their returns.

Mr GRAY would opposo the resolution. At tlje present time, the net proceeds .of the railway was not much more than three years ago ; it was estimated for the first eight mouths of this year that the receipts would be £15,000, and he could not calculate the remaining- four months at more.than £sooo', ■ so that it would only reach £20,000, or the same amount as last year. The fact was that the expenditure on the railway wanted.reducing somewhat. [Hear, hear.J Taking the item of re-laying sleepers, for which a very large amount had been paid, an amount, half of which, in his belief, would have sufficed. He felt that there were other items which required reduction, but as a layman, Hie felt diffident in offering ant opinion. However, there could be no doubt that the expenses of their railways were too high, and that they were actually working at I a loss. ~!

Mr Kennaway should like the hon member for Christchurch to practically explain the result of his first resolution ?

Dr Tuenbull replied that he had moved for a return of the cost of haulage and passenger tni/fk! but the Government were not in a position to furnish it, and therefore he was not able to shew practically what the hdu member wanted.

Mr Keknaway said he was not opposed to ; the principle but he did not like to adopt it until he knew more about it.

' Mr Jollie pointed out that a portion of the information required by the hon member was on the table of the House. Dr Turnrull would then wish to know why the Government, if they had the information within their knowledge, had not replied to the question he had put and the order made by the House for the return spoken of. Mr Jollie said that the Government had obtained all the information possible. At, the time the question was asked, the hon member was informed that it would not be possible to place the information as to haulage before the Council. Mr Maude said that the Government had made an endeavor to get the information as to haulage required by the hon member, but jt could ouly be done approximately, and the return would not then bo so correct or reliable as he should like to see go forth to the public. Dr Turnrull disclaimed any desire of blaming the JGovernment, but he had been told that the information he had given was not sufficient, but he could not get it from the Provincial Secretary or the Government for the reasons already stated. Mr Kennaway said that he felt sure the Government would only be too glad to have a definite principle laid down as to charging the rates on the railway. He hoped the hon member would allow progress to be reported on these resolutions uutil the information he had referred to had been obtained, when the matter would be able to be placed far more clearly before the Council. [Hear, hear.J | After some remarks from Sir C. Wilson and Mr. Jerson, ; Dr Turnrull said he would move that the Chairman report progress. Progress was then reported and th« House adjourned for half an hour. RAILWAY FARES. Mr Maskell moved—" That passengers by the railways be allowed to purchase their tickets at any hour of the day on which they intend to travel, either at the railway stations or at certain specified places in the various towns ; such tickets to be available for any train on such day until used." He thought that the motion did not require atiy very lengthened remarks from him, as the inconvenience to the public of having to go through'the crushing and pushing incidental to* the regulation that it was necessary to purchase a ticket five minutes before the train started, was well known. He did not know whether the Government had consulted the railway authorities on this matter, but he might say that if it entailed any inconvenience on the department it was only right that this should give way to the convenience of the public. The course proposed by the resolution was in force in other places, and where the railway system was far more complicated than their own. Regarding tjie purchase of the tickets, and their being available for any day, he held that the ticket should, having once been purchased, be used whenever the purchaser thought fit. His resolution also contemplated the sale of tickets at other places than railway stations in the province, places which should act as it were as sub-offices of the railway, the Government advertising the same. He might allude to another thing which had come under his notice recently, and that was that a resolution of the House regarding' the purchase of a through ticket on the line had not been carried out. He hoped the Government would look into this matter. The resolution he hoped would receive the favourable consideration of the House, as it would be a matter of great convenience to the public.

Mr Maude said that the Government, in accepting the resolution, would do so with a desire to carry it out as far as possible in its entirety. They were, however, unable at present •to say whether the resolution could be carried out as proposed by the hon member. He might say that he saw no reason why railway tickets should not be sold in the town at various places in the same manner as duty stamps. No difficulty took place in the sale of duty stamps by licensed vendors, and he could not see why railway tickets should not be disposed of in the same way. So soon as the Government could get paper of a peculiar character this might be carried out. At any rate the Government would do their best to carry out the resolution. [Hear, hear .J With regard to the restrictions existing at the railway stations of the obtaining of tickets five minutes before the train started, the Government would see that this restriction was removed, j Hear, hear.] He would suggest to the hon member that the words "except special trains" be inserted after the words " any train," so as to confine the use of the tickets to ordinary trains. [Hear, hear.] Mr Webb moved as an amendment that the words "at auy hour of the clay on which they intend to travel" be struck out, and at the end of the resolution the following words be struck out " on such day," and the words " until used" added. Mr Gray seconded the amendment.

Mr Dixon said that he thought the carrying of this resolution would entail a large addition to tho staff, as persons would constantly b c found getting into their wrong carriages. He thought it advisable to follow the English system, and not attempt to teach their grandmothers to suck eggs. Mr W. B. Tosswill would support the resolution. In America, the same system had been in operation for some time, and with marked success. If there had been such facilities for fraud as had been spoken of, the system would have been given up. Regarding the amendment of the hon member for Lyttelton (Mr Webb), he was not prepared just yet to go so far as that; it might come after a time, but he thought it would be better to support the resolution as originally proposed. Mr HiocuNS was quite prepared to accept the remarks made by the Secretary for Public Works, and leave tbe matter in the hands of the Government, who would, he thought, see that it was carried out. Mr Kennaway agreed with the hon. member who had just sat down, that the Government would do so far as was possible to carry out the resolution. The hon member for Seftoii had spoken of a case in which tho resolution of the Council with regard to through tickets had not been carried out. ; Well, the manager had reported that this I was not ossible, and the Bame was the case

witb a bccond resolution proposed by the hon member relative to locking the doors. Under the old system, a man getting away without having given up his ticket would not so much matter, but now, if the ameudmeut wctc agreed to, he would be able to travel again the next day. lie agreed with the hon member for Oxford, that it would be better to leave it in the hands of the Government. Mr Montgomery asked the hon member for Lyttelton to withdraw his amendment, as it was impossible to be carried out. The Secretary for Public Works had told the House that the Government would agreo to passengers purchasing their tickets at any time during the day on which they intended to travel, and also that the tickets might be purchased at railway stations or at places in the towns, and he did not think the House or the Government should go further. Mr Webu withdrew his amendment by leave.

Mr Maude's amendment was then put and agreed to. The original resolution was then put and carried on the voices. EXECUTIVE COUNCIL ORDINANCE. The House went into committee on this Bill. Clause 3 was passed without amendment. In clause 4, Mr JoYkT moved that the words "by warrant under his hand " be inserted after word Superintendent. Mr Kennaway suggested the addition of the words " by and with the advice of his Executive Council." Mr Kennaway moved as an amendment the addition of the words " by and with the advice of the Executive Couucil."

Mr Montgomery suggested that the words "remaining members of the" be inserted between the words " the" and " Executive." Mr Kennaway agreed to the suggestion, and the amendment as a whole was then put and agreed to. Mr Joynt's amendment was then put. Mr Knight then moved that the Chairman report progress. Mr Montgomery said he trusted the House would go on with the Bill. It had been brought down in compliance with the wish of the members of the late Council, and also, he believed, in compliance with the wish of the public, that an alteration in the then existing state of things was necessary. The Government were prepared to move the recommittal of the Bill so as to allow of the amendment made in clause 2 to be rescinded and restore it to its original form, and to insert a clause in the Appropriation Bill to limit its operation to a fortnight or some such period, after the calling together of the session of the Council. Under these circumstances he trusted the House would go on with the Bill.

j The motion for reporting progress was then put and declared to be negatived on the voices. " .

Mr Knight demanded a division, which took place with the following result : Ayes ... ... 19 Noes ... 17 The result was received with cheers. The result of the division is the shelving of the Bill. FENCING ORDINANCE, 1872, AMENDMENT ORDINANCE, 1874. • Sir ORACROFT Wilson obtained leave to postpone the second reading of this Bill until this evening.

MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS REVENUE ORDI-

NANCE, 1874. Mr Montgomeey moved the second reading of this Bill. In moving the second reading, he wished to draw the attention of the House to the fact the Road Boards of the province received large sums of money from time to time from that House, and the municipalities did not. The latter had to keep up the repairs of the main roads and do other works, and it was found that the rate of Is in the £ was not sufficient. It was proposed that the auctioneers' licenses, publicans' licenses, and the dog fees arising within the municipal boundaries should be handed over to them as a portion of their ordinary revenue, less the amount necessary for the supply of dog-collars. In asking that the local imposts should be spent where collected it was only carrying out the maxim of good government that the taxes should be spent in the parts where they were raised. Though he entirely agreed with the principle that the Road Boards were as much entitled to these taxes as the municipalities, he felt that, as the Road Boards were receiving a large sum in other ways—more than the taxes would amount to—there was no harm in handing over these taxes to the municipal authorities. The total revenue derivable from these sourceß would be as follows: Christchurch— Per annum. Publicans', licenses ... ... £I6OO Auctioneers' ditto 560 Dog tax 1178

£749 10 The grand totals would be as follows : Publicans' licenses, £2500 ; auctioneers' ditto, £GBO ; dog tax, £1766 10s ; total, £4946 10s. The following was a statement of the amounts paid into the consolidated revenue account for the nine months ending 31st March, with the amounts contributed by the Province of Canteroury : • £ b. d.

September quarter, consolidated revenue 282,971 8 .) Canterbury share ... ... 40,033 8 7 December quarter, consolidated revenue 342,301 10 11 Canterbury shave ... _ ... 54,650 12 11 March quarter, consolidated revenue in i Canterbury share 67,722 10 6 Estimated amount for quarter ending June, 1874 ... 380,000 0 0 Canterbury share 07,700 0 0 Total consolidated revenue... 1,389,874 7 6 Canterbury share 131,006 11 9 The population of the province was so; far as he could make out paying theJGcneral Government M per head-man, woman, and child. The province during the year had paid the sum of £231,000, and he would ask hon members what they got for it. [Sir C.

Wilson—" Not muchi'] When this was the case why should not the municipalities have sonic of their provincial revenue for their municipal uses. Take Christchurcn for i istance, i >aid nearly £40,000 per annum, ,'n wli . :.! they get back—a capitation .-.'i.ui! 01 1.'.., per head; but it did not come kick to hel|( them to do their works in their municipalities: it came back to pay the interest on the railways. Therefore be took it that it would only be doing justice to the towns to allow them to have the benefit of a local impost to help to make tVieir streets. He hoped therefore that lion members would allow the Bill to pass as an act of justice. Mr Kknnaway was of opinion that this a very important Bill, dealing as it did with the finance of the province.* They had been , designated a money-spending machine, but he thought they should look after what they had got to spend. This was the first time he believed that a proposition had come before the Council to take away from them a large portion of their permanent revenue. It was not like a vote which came up on the year's estimates, was spent and then done with, but, it proposed to do away with a large portion of their money for a number of years. Therefore this was a very important measure, dealing as he said with the finance of the province. It was all very well for them to be generous, but they should be just before they were generous ; they must see if they could afford it. No doubt the municipalities would spend this money well, but they must remember that what they were asked to vote was £BO,OOO, and they must also recollect that the pasturage rents would be on the decrease, while the dog fees and other licenses would increase ; hence, though now £BO,OOO, it would be still more in a few years to come. The present time was a very favorable one, because it was said that the Treasury was overflowing. He would like to ask his hon friend at the head of the Government if he would have brought such a bill down in 1868. In'that year the hon gentleman brought down his estimates and announced his intention of making both ends meet, and to such an extent did that intention go that he expressed his jintention, if both ends did not meet with the ordinary revenue, of taxing the »people. He also thought of introducing a tax for the purpose of charitable aid, and also a special tax for education —not the present system—but the old denominational one. Hence he said his policy now did not coincide with that of 1868. Coming to the Bill before the House, he would point out that the province did a good deal for the municipalities. At home the police was supported by the boroughs and, cities, whereas here the municipalities were, relieved of this, besides there were weights and measures and charitable aid, all of which were supported .out of the provincial revenue. Therefore, the complaint of the hon member that the municipalities got nothing, would not hold water. He complained of their having to contribute towards the railway, but what conduced more to the prosperity of a city like Christchurch or the other towns, than the railway. [Hear, hear.]. The hon member at the head of the Government,'had referred to the amount of money received by Road Boards ; but what were the keeping in order of a few miles of streets, to the hundreds of miles of road under supervision of the Road Boards? The hon gentlemen had also said that taxes should be spent where raised, and this was the case with regard to the dog and other Jtaxes now, in the matter of justice, &c, which certainly gave the municipalities each a large percentage of them. He trusted the Council would consider this matter thoroughly, as it was a far more serious matter than voting £IO,OOO or £20,000 right off. He wished to point out that it was necessary to consider and weigh this Bill well, as if they once gave this revenue away they could not resume it. They must recollect that they as members of that Council were bound to stand up for the financial as well as the constitutional rights of the Council; Therefore, he hoped the Government would not now press this Bill. I Cheers.] The Hon Mr Buckley said he was very much disappointed at the speech of the hon. member at the head of the Government, who had not, he thought, given then that amount of information which he should have done. He had given them an account of how much the corporation or the residents of the city contributed to the general funds, but he had not told them whether they intended to relieve the provincial revenue of any charge. He contended that it would better to make a grant to the municipalities every year rather than give them the taxes and fees which were contemplated to be handed over by the Council to the municipalities. Mr W. B. Tosswill said that he had felt inclined to support the Bill, buffthe speeches of the two hon members who had preceded him had changed his opinions. The speech of the hon member for Seadown had shown most conclusively that it was not expedient to grant the revenue required to be alienated. Now that they were in a position, he thought they might perhaps make an annual grant to the municipalities, and if it came before the Council in that shape he should feel inclined to support it. At present, however, he could not support the second reading of the Bill. Mr Dixon should like to hear|some further information on the subject before voting for this Bill.

Mr Webb said so far from the railway, having been, as was alleged by the hon member for Seadown, a blessing to the municipalities, he could say that it had been the downfall of Lyttclton. He should support the second reading of the Bill; In Australia the municipalities received a certain per centage on the rates raised as an endowment spread over twenty years, leaving them at the end of that time self-supporting. He thought that a very good case had been made why the municipalities Bhould receive endowment. Dr Turnbull would support the Bill. He contended that the hon member for Seadown and the hon member for Waimate had utterly failed to prove their case. [Laughter.] He contended that all they speaking for the municipalities—asked for was their own, as hon members did not take any note of the amount contributed by the municipalities towards the general revenue. There was no law to compel Christchurch, Kaiapoi, or Lyttelton to remain as municipalities, and then they reverted to the Provincial Government, who would have to support them. Therefore it was that they came and asked for their own—for what was raised in their midst. The City Council had not only to maintain a town, but they had to make one ; and to do this they had gone to the utmost limit of the taxation. They had borrowed for a special work, and they were quite prepared to go on borrowing so long as the Council gave them a large reserve to pay the interest. In other

provinces the 'municipalities possessed large reserves, some of them worth thousands of pounds, and they only asked for an endowment of a portion of their own revenue. The one great argument they had to rely upon was that the fees they wanted handed over to them came from themselves. Hon members did not consider that they were now taxed to keep up the whole province. He hoped therefore that the House would agree to the second reading. Mr Joynt, who was also a representative of a municipality, would support the second reading of the Bill. The hon member for Seadown had said that the railway would have a beneficial effect upon the towns, but he would point out that, in the case of Kaiapoi, it had been just the reverse ; its trade and commerce had been tapped by the rail* way passing by. With regard to what had fallen from the hon member for Waimatc, he (Mr Joynt) might point out that the town of Kaiapoi had been receiving 75 per cent of the bridge tolls, and had also agreed to keep the main road in repair. Now, by the Act of the last session of the Council, the bridge tolls had been abolished, thereby entailing a loss of from £3OO to £4OO per annum, while the keeping the main roads—the great North and the Bangiora roads—came up to the amount of the tolls receivable, so that, even if this Bill passed, Kaiapoi would not be receiving by some £SO of what she was entitled to. Therefore, he contended that the borough he represented had a fair claim to consideration from the Provincial Council. He contended that there was a tendency in legislation to restrict the number of publicans' licenses ; indeed, the legislation was to a great extent prohibitory. In regard to auctioneers' licenses also, he might say that no very large increase could be looked for, while he felt sure he was endorsing the sentiments of hon members when he said that he hoped the dog fees would not increase. Now, they had made very large endowments both in land and money for education, the Museum, College, and Public Library, and he did not see why more should not be voted. He thought that the municipalities had a right to ask that a portion of the money raised within their borders should be handed over to them in aid of the works they had to carry out. Hon members must recollect that auctioneers' licenses and publicans' licenses were raised more in the vicinity of towns than elsewhere. He hoped the House would grant the second reading. Sir Ckacropt Wilson said that he could not make up his mind to support the second reading of this Bill, because he could not see his way clear to alienate any of the permanent revenue of the province. He did not wish to be a Cassandra, but he must say they were going On in a most extravagant manner —everything was done on the most extravagant Bcale. If any municipality was in difficulties, jet them gO the same way as others had done before them and' borrow money, or let them come to the House for a grant-in-aid. While he was ready to give a helping hand to 'any municipality which required it, he was not prepared to vote for the alienation of any part of' the provincial revenue. [Hear, hear.] ' Mr Bluett said that if this Bill passed they would have the Eoad Boards coming over to that House and asking for their share of the dog fees, Sec. If this were so he should take care that application was made on this behalf by the lioad Board which he had the honor to represent. [Hear, hear."] Mr Jebson thought if they were going oh in this way endowing this and endowing that they might as well at once take the whole estate and parcel it out amongt the various claimants. I.Hear, hear."] As it ' was : new their ordinary revenue was only just about enough to meet their ordinary expenditure, therefore they would, if they agreed to alienate this amount, have a a deficit. He quite agreed with the hon member.for Hcathcotc (Sir C. Wilson) that it would be better to give a yearly sum to municipalities rather than to alienate the permanent revenues of the province. He should oppose the second reading of the Bill. (Cries of " question.") Mr 7 Montgomery in reply said that the hon member for Waimate (Mr Buckley) had stated in the course of his remarks that the capitation grant was paid over by the General Government to support the police, hospitals, &c, btft he would desire to point out that this was not the case. It was taken by the General Government to pay interest on loans, and if this was not sufficient the General Government then came down upon the land fund. If the General Government did not tax' the people generally, they would have to provide the interest. The hon member for Seadown had accused him (Mr Montgomery) ©f going away from his principles enunciated in 1868—in that he had stated that the land fund should be held sacred from general purposes ; but he had that very year put the cost of education—the maintenance of schools —Upon schedule B, taking the cost dirjecfc,from the land fund. Now this was put. 1 on to," schedule A to the extent of £20,000 per year, and if it were placed on schedule B, as in 1868, they would have for the nine months Of the financial year £15,000 to the credit of schedule A, or at the rate of £20,000 for the whole year. After replying to the remarks made by the opponents of the Bill, the hon member concluded by expressing a hope that the House would pass the second reading.

The question for the second reading was put and declared to be carried on the voices. A ; division was called for, which resulted as follows: — Ayes ... 14 Noes' , ... ... 19 Majority against the second reading 5 The result was received with loud cheers. The following was the division list : Ayes, 14—Messrs Andrews, Fisher, Healey, Jollie, Joynt, Maude, Montgomery, Kayner, Teschemaker, Turnbuli J. 53., Turnbull R., Webb, Westenra, Wilson, I. Noes, 19—Messrs Bluett, Buchanan, Buckley,' Bixon, Gray, Harper, Jebson, Kenna Way, Knight, Maskell, Parker, Pilliet, Potts, Tancred T. S., Tosswill J. N., Tosswill W. 8., Walker, White, Wilson J.C, COMMITTEE OP SUPPLY. Mr Maude moved the House into committee of supply. Mr Kennaway moved the adjournment of the House. The motion for adjournment was put, and declared to be carried on the voices. A division was called for, with the following result: — Ayes 17 Noea ... ... ... ... 15 Majority for adjournment ... 2 The result was received with cries of " Hear, hear." Notices of motion having been giveß, the House adjourned, till 5 P.m. tttis day.

Total ... £3338 Lyttelton — Publicans' licenses ... 310 Auctioneers' ditto ... Dog tax 40 121 10 £471 10 Kaiapoi— Publicans' licenses ... 190 Auctioneers' licenses Dog tax Nil. 197 10 £387 10 Timaru— Publicans' licenses ... 400 Auctioneers' ditto ... Dog tax 80 269 10