BOROUGH LOAN PROPOSALS

Gisborne Times, Volume XXVII, Issue 2409, 26 January 1909, Page 6

BOROUGH LOAN PROPOSALS

THE PUBLIC MEETING

A SMALL ATTEND AX OF

Tlio statutory mooting of ratepayers to discuss tlit,*. proposals of the Borough Council to borrow £112,440 lor . tlio purposes of providing drainage on the scheme recommended by Mr. .Mestaycr, road improvement, and recreation reserves, was held in the Garrison Hall last evening. Although seating accommodation had been provided for gome thousands of people, there was only a small attendance, • about 150 (persons being present. The Mayor (Mr. VV. D. Lysnar) occupied the chair, and said (lie meeting had been called to consider the various proposals being put forth by the Council. -He had to ■ apologise for a numbor- of people who were .forced to attend the Bur ns’ celeb ration and also for the Burns’ celebration committee, who wore unable to postpone their dinner. .Dealing with the roads loan Mr. Lysnar said it would be conceded that the present system was not satisfactory. The‘town was now rated at 2s lOd, or two pence under the limit. The roads had to carry a heavv traffic. and it was found that patching was not satisfactory. In 1907 £5736 in 1908 £9308, . ami in the first nine months of the present financial year £8328 had been .spent in street maintenance, although' tho Straker waggon and other machinery had been paid out of that amount. The borough overdraft was now close up to the limit, and the rates were exhausted. In June, 1906, the overdraft was £9436, and at present it was at the limit of £IO,OOO.- The time had come when neither the rates nor the overdraft could be increased, and the cloth most lie cut to fit the position. The present system only allowed maintenance on the main streets, while the back streets were neglected, but if a loan was raised both front and back streets would get tlieir .share. The Borough Overseer had been instructed to draw up u schedule, showing the cost of keeping the streets in good condition, and tliat schedule was now being put forward alter it bad been considered by the Works Committee and adopted bv the Council. It was necessary to put a proper value on the schedule, because it dealt fully with the subject. The Council had been paying 6s 6d per yard for metal., but would, with the help of the new machinery, be able to > put Kaitaratahi metal on the road lor about 2s 6d per yard. The Mayor then mentioned that the Finance Committee had reported on the schedule. Gr. Sheridan: Read it, will you, please. The Mayor read the committee's report, and said the schedule had beenfair.lv considered by all the members of the Council. The various committees had added some 'amounts for various streets, and those specifie amounts could not lie diverted to another street.. but each amount mentioned for a street could not be changed, and these were the'conditions upon, which the voce would be taken. A sum of £3323 was to lie set aside for roadmaking machinery-, part of which was for the "Straker waggon, locomotive crane and a watering cart. It was imppsiblo to. get an up-to-date rotary watering cart until the Council had money to pay for it. The present water-carts were only fit for the scrapheap. The present way of running the borough was unsatisfactory, but the way could not be bettered unless the Council was given the means. At the present time a saving of 6s per yard in the cost of road metal could be made by the Stnaker waggon, but a still further saving was anticipated when the hoppers were in work at the quarry and the trailer was attached to the waggon. The County Council had offered to bring metal in at 3s per yard, but the Straker waggon would beat that estimate every time, j The Government was also considering j a reduction of 25 per cent in the j charge for carrying* metal on the rail-! ways for lopal bodies, and when that 1 came to pass a further saving could be effected. i The .Mayor then dealt briefly with the financial statement prepared by the Town Clerk, and published in yesterday’s issue of the “Times.” Continuing, Mr. Lysnar said a lot Of people, 'and particularly the morning press, had said the figures were not the Town Clerk’s, hut were prepared by the -Mayor, hut that statement was wrong, and. was made absolutely without justification to endeavor to mislead the people. Mr. Robinson j had given a certificate to The figures, which would he on record for all time, : and tlio people would find them correct if the loan was carried. The morning press had attacked him, and tried to throw cold water on the scheme. One financial magnate had gone around the town and said “Yon must get rid of Lysnar.” The ratepayers would-get rid of (Lysnar if they did not help him to watch over the i interests of the town. He (the Mayor) . asked the people not take any notice of any statement made by such a paper as the “Times.” A voice: We came here to hear about the loan proposals, not to hear you criticise the newspapers. The Mayor then explained that, if the money for the work was borrowed under the .Loans to Local Bodies Amendment Act. the Government would guarantee half the sinking fund, and the ratepayers would save 50 per .cont. of their nates. When in Wellington a few weeks ago he inquired if the Government was getting many applications for money, and on being informed that a large number of applications were being made, he asked the Hon. Mr. Hogg to keep a corner for tlio Gisborne loan. The average' length of time to extinguish a. loan on which 1 per cont. sinking fund was provided was 37) years, because The sinking fund as collected was let out to earn _ interest. By the Government sharing the sinking fund, the time was reduced, and by borrowing to form the main streets, instead of paying it out of their pockets in one sung something was left for posterity to pay. The Patut'ahi metal was decried too much, and no macadamising had been done. - The only good piece of road-making was opposite"-Mr. Whinmy’s warehouse, and even that was only, tarred on top and the metal had been, put down , ill tar. ißclads should be made properly, .and they were then right for eight or ten years. The ro-ads in Gisborne had never been made properly, and if that system went on the people would be rated up to the hilt, and the roads would still be in a bad condition. If the loan for V roads was carried { the rate would

mean an increase of only-6d on the present rate,'-or.<a matter of only 15s )h a property valued -at £SOO. Mr.* lan Simson: Are you aware that properties are over-valued to an extent of about 35 per cent? The Mayor: I have heard that "Mtompnt, and I -am prepared to buy some properties at their valuations. Mr. iSimson: Well you can have mine.

Tlio Mayor: Well come around -in the morning, and I’ll probably take it, if you don’t want too much cash deposit. ; , In concluding his remarks on the loan for roads, Mr. Lysnar said lie hoped tho ratepayers avould ladopfitlK proposal. The matter was now open for discussion, and any questions would be answered.

In reply to a question, the Mayor arid that the main streets were to he tarred macadam. 'The upper portion of Gladstone Road would be Patutahi metal, and the same would apply to nine of the principal side streets. Sucli streets as ‘Wainui Road would stand for eight or ten years without

repairs, and many of the back streets with a good coat of shingle would stand for five or six years. Mr. Geo. Dartou asked if it would not he fairer to state that the ’Works Committee had reported that there were nine miles of permanent work, costing £20,000. and 30 miles of nonpermanent work for the balance. The Mayor said that lie had no such report. Mr. Dartou: Is'.it notion the schedule before you?

The Mayor again outlined the permanent works proposed. Mr Dartou said the ratepayers were not getting a fair idea of the amount of permanent work that was to be done. He with others did not think tho roads- would stand the tims the Mayor said they would, and he did not want to he in the position of paying for what would be gone in three or four years. In reply the Mayor said the-point was one on which hie opponents had hung their hats for a long time, and ii they argued all night they would never decide which was permanent and which was non-permanent work. It was all a matter of opinion. Mr. Dartou: If the road won’t stand as long as a loan lasts we have no right to do it out of a loan and leave posterity to pay for what they do not get. The Mayor: That might be your opinion, but J. hope it is not the opinion of the people sitting around here. Mr. 1-1. Miller moved “That tho road proposals be placed before the ratepayers.' 7 lie thought something should be before the meeting. .Mr. M. Ha ism an seconded the motion . The Mayor showed a diagram of a road as at present and one as when re-formed. A voice: What road is it? Mr. Dartou: Stout Street. (Laughter.)

Mr. Simson : Twelve years ago I came to Poverty Bay, and the rating was Is in the £, and the roads were as rroodjbem as they are now. Since then £70,000 have been spent on the roads., and what guarantee have .we got that the £40,000 proposed to be narrowed will be spent judiciously, i lie ratepayers- don’t want it spent under your supervision or under the supervision, of an overseer. I want the supervision of a certificated engineer. (Hear,- hear.)

The Mayor: The money cannot be diverted from one road to another, and how it will be spent will depend upon whom you return to the Council next April.

Mr. Simson : Tin; money can he badly spent though. A ratepayer: I would like to know if a rood 16 chains can be formed and made with gravel and have footpaths formed for £7l ? . The Aiavor: The street will get more gravel now that gravel is cheaper, and you can go with a clear conscience that the money is enough for the work, and any little discrepancy can come out of revenue.

| Cr. Sheridan : You have told the meeting that those figures are enKtirely the Town Clerk’s, and not your own. Only estimates, are. they not? That being the ease, can 'you tell me how between 1910 and 1911 there will be a rise of £IOOO over the valuations of all other years, that is £6OOO instead di £5000? The Finance Committee, after considering the figures, agreed that those figures were not sound finance. That is counting ‘ the chickens before they are hatched. ( Why are they trotted out.,now? | Air. (Simson: Is this a Borough Council meeting ? i. The Mayor: Cr -Sheridan is u rato- | payer, and can ask questions. „• Surely ‘ no one wili say that the values are i not going to increase. ! Air. Stafford asked if it was possible : to load gravel on the trucks and put ; it on the street for 9d per yard, as j the Mayor had said. (He was confij dent metal could not be placed on I the Haiti streets for 9d.

The Mayor: The whole loading of the trucks at Kaitaratahi only needs the -attendance-of one man, and the whole of the work at the river can •be done for 4d per yard. Air. Da-rton: Did Air. Morgan say be could deliver and spread gravel ou to the roads for 9d per yard? Now, did ho? The Mayor: Yes. ho told me so. Air. Dartou: Then lie must leave it to the wind to spread.

Air. .uVEaher: Arc you satisfied if the estimate is right? The Alayor: If you hire Air. Alaher’s cart you cannot do it. Air, Leydon rose to a point of order. They had not come to discuss horses and carts, .but borrowing proposals. Tho Alayor said ho refused’" to take any more questions about horses and carts. In answer to another question, the Mayor said that more money had been spent on tho Abattoir road than had been set aside for it. A ratepayer proceeded to demonstrate the best -way to metal roads, and was received with some disorclet. The motion on being iput was declared carried. On a show of hands being called for, n largo number of reasons refrained from voting. A number of people then left tlio hall. RECREATION RESERVES. Dealing with the proposal to borrow £6150 for recreation reserves, the Mayor said that it was proposed to spend- £IOOO on enlarging Victoria Domain j £2OO was intended to start a Botanical Garden, and the balance was* intended to be used to purchase l recreation grounds in AVhataupoko and Haiti. Gisborne badly needed re-

creation grounds. There was no. place where children could -go-and get fresh air and shade. Tlio rate proposed was only Id in the £. Mr. F. Stafford moved "That the, proposal bo adopted,” and the - motion was carried without dissent."

THE DRAINAGE PROPOSALS. , Dealing with tlio drainage proposals tho Mayor said Mr. Mestaycr in 1901 recommended that a Shone system • was suitable for Gisborne, and Mr. Hav had confirmed that opinion. The former Council had adopted a proposal that £20,000 should be borrowed to construct: the main outfall sewer, and a special loan raised to sewer areas 1,2., and 3. The Mayor exhibited. the “Times” map to explain the position of the area to he- drained, and explained the engagement of Mr. S. Jickell to report upon a drainage system for the town... He agreed that the “town was badly in need of drainage, but no system should be accepted unless it dealt with the sewage of all the settled part of the town. That was not proposed to he done in tho Dronosal that was being put forward. The Mayor showed a plan on which were marked the positions of the ejector stations of Mr. Mestayer’s scheme. Mr. (Mestaycr had said the scheme could provide for 12,000 people at a cost of £BO,OOO. He asked the ratepayers to also consider Mr. Jickcll’s scheme in conjunction with Mr. MoistayorV. Mr. Mestayer’s scheme would cost £125,000, and Mr. Jickell’s scheme £107,000. The Mayor then detailed the principal differences between the alternative schemes of Messrs Mestayer and Jickell, and said Mr. Jickell’s scheme possessed the most advantages, and bad no air mains as proposed by Mr. Mestayer: Mr. Mestayer’s scheme was all right for a city like ’Wellington, but it was too costly for a town Like Gisborne to shoulder. The Mavor then from colored diagrams explained the system recommended by Mr. Jickell.

Mr. Sheridan said tho Mayor was not putting the proposals fairly, as if Mr. Mestaycr put his outfall where Mr. Jickell placed his, the cost could be reduced by £12,000. Continuing, tiie Mayor said tlio £20,000 for the outfall sewer would not be sufficient, but £23,320 would lie-required. According to the Town Clerk’s figures, if a drainage scheme was adopted, there would he no increase in rates for six years, and then 11-id on Mr. Mestayer’s scheme anti fid on Mr. Jickell’s scheme. The Council would also borrow money to connect properties with the sewage drains, and ratepayers would he only called upon to repay the amount individually borrowed in five yearly instalments. He hoped whatever scheme was adopted the proposals would receive full consideration. Although the small number of people present could, not be called a representative meeting, still he hoped the proposal would go to the poll. Mr. Dartou said the Mayor had nub- put Mi-. Jickell’is scheme before the ratepayers, and as tho Mayor would not put forward Air. Mestuyer’s scheme he (Mr. Dartou) asked permission to. do so. Tlio Mayor said Mr. Dartou could say whatever he wished.

‘Mr. W. F. Crawford moved: “Tliat this meeting docs not‘approve of the proposal lo borrow 020.000 to initiate Mr. Alostaycr’s scheme, but request the Borough Council to submit Mr.' Jickell’s scheme.”

Mr. J. B. Leydon seconded tlio motion.

All*. Dartou said tho people had come to hear the details of a scheme propounded In* Mr. Ale-stayer and not by All*. Jickell. When ratepayers got up and said tliat a scheme gave out unwholesome smells it showed they knew nothing about the question. Air. Mestayer was looked upon as tlie best qualified engineer on drainage questions in New Zealand, and was engaged by the Wellington City Council to install a drainage system there, After carefully going into the question of a system for Gisborne, he unhesitatingly recommended the Shone system. Air. Midgley Taylor had also adopted the Shone system in Auckland and Napier, and Air. R. Hay, of Dunedin, had gone into the details of all systems, and said Air. Alestayer’s .scheme was the best. The Council had come to the conclusion that Air. Jickell’s scheme was not one for Gisborne. In: his scheme it was proposed to discharge the sewage on the Haiti beach, and the Council was not going to have that. Air. Mestayer was the highest authority on drain ago in the Dominion, and Mr. Jickell’s reputation was not in any way equal to his. Tlie Shone system was recommended on account of its cleanliness. Altogether the scheme propounded by Air. .Jickell was in no way comparable with tliat of Air. Mestayer. Nothing could bo worse than a faulty drainage system, for it was no good tinkering with a tin-pot system that was being foisted on tlie ratepayers by the Alayor. With the exception of tlio Alayor the Council was unanimous that Air. Alestayer’s scheme was tho one for Gisborne. Ho entered a strong protest against the Alayor for not laying Air. Alestayer’s scheme before the meeting and for dealing with Air. Jickell’s report when it had not been put forward by tho Council. The Council was not opposed to a loan, but was opposed to the way the Alayor put the proposals to save rates before, tho people, for according to the Alayor it was only a question of making the* loan large enough and lie would save tho whole of tlio rates. Tlie way Mr. Jickcll’s report had been pfit before the meeting was unfair to. the Council, and it was the Mayor’s duty to have put Air. Alestayer’s scheme before the ratepayers whether he liked it or not. * Air. J. F. Sheridan, also detailed the engagement of Mr. Mestayer to report upon a drainage system for Gisborne. The Mayor had acted most unfairly in the way lie]had dealt with Air. Mestayer’s scheme and put Air; Jickell’s proposal bofore the meeting. Air. Jickell was never a consulting engineer and never would he, while Mr. Mestayer had a world-wide reputation.

A ratepayer said he was opposed to drainage, as the town was not largo enough to stand the expense. Air. lan Simson said lie had heard tho various speeches with pleasure. He was against borrowing a. large sum of money to go in for an elaborate scheme.*' Ho know of a town in which a septic tank system had been put down for £7500, and was working splendidly. Gisborne was not largo enough to go in for an. expensive •drainage. system, and septic tanks were„quite good enough. He hoped tho ratepayers would adopt the proper course and not vote 'for either scliome.

Mr. John Townley said he thought it would be quite out of order to put Mr Crawford’s motion to the meeting. Mr. Jickell’s scheme was not before the meeting, and tlie ratepayers had come to the meeting to hear Mr. Mestayer’s. scheme explained. Mr. Dartou moved as an amendment “That Ai r Alestayerbs scheme be submitted to the ratepayers.” The Mayor said he would not stop Mr.- Mestayer’s scheme going to the poll. Mir. Stafford seconded Air. Darton’s amendment. In answer to a question the Alayor said that after the loan proposals had boon cleaned off the slate he Would give the people an opportunity to express an opinion on the- question of rating upon unimproved values. Air. Darton’s amendment was then put to the mooting and declared. lost. 'Pile audience, disputed the Mayor’s decision. On a fresh vote being taken Air. Darton’s amendment* was declared lost by one vote. Air. Crawford’s motion was then put and also declared lost. The Alayor announced that the poll would be taken on the proposals on February 3rd. The meeting then broke up.