SMAll GRAZING RUNS.

Gisborne Times, Volume XXVI, Issue 2340, 5 November 1908, Page 3

SMAII GRAZING RUNS.

MR. CARROLL IN DEFENCE.

A STORMY MEETING

During the course of bis political address in His Majesty’s Theatre last evening, the Hon. James Carroll made an explanation in regard to the various charge® that have been made against him of using liis political influence to secure the renewal of the lease, of a certain small grazing run. In opening the question, the Minister for Native Affairs said that' during the> past few weeks there had been considerable interest, and he would say excitement, over-what had transpired because a certain small grazing run had been re-leased at a higher rental to .a certain tenant, and because it had been decided to subdivide other small grazing runs, relet a portion to the tenants, and 1 offer the balance for selection on the optional system. He did not approach, the criticism, that had been levelled against him, with any hostile feeling or any animus, but he had a most friendly feeling to all concerned. Mr R. G. v Black, the sub-tenant of run 43, had made the question a prominent one. The matter had been discussed in. the press day after day, until' the public was acquainted with every detail. He (Mr Carrol”) was indebted to Mr. Black for boiling tho question down to three clear issues, which he had sent to the newspapers. Those issues were:—

No. 1. Has political influence been used to secure the renewal of Run 42, Mr. F. Hall’s? No. 2. Have the Government kept faith with the tenants in the matter of renewals of these runs? No. 3. Has the lessee of Run 43, R. G. Black, been fairly dealt with ?

Proceeding, Mr. Carroll said Ins answer to the first issue was that no political influence had been used to secure the renewal of run 42, Mr. Fred Hall’s —as far as ihe was aware — (murmurs of dissent). He (Mr. Carroll) had tho highest respect for his colleague, the’Minister of Lands, and knew that Mr. McNab would not tolerate any interference with the administration of his department, even if he (Mr. Carroll) was disposed to interfere. So far as lie (Mr. Carroll) knew, during the time the transactions between the Land Board and the Minister were in progress, the Minister was alone dealing with the question, and he (Mr. Carroll) did not know what was taking place. Ho had, however, obtained a copy of the schedule sent by the Land Board to the Minister, and in the schedule run 42 was reported as “hot” suitable for subdivision. Mr. G. J. Black: That was the typewriter's mistake. Mr. Carroll: I will come to that presently. Mr. Carroll then proceeded to read the schedule, and the report. Opposite run 43, R. G. Black, were the words —“suitable for subdivision.”

Tho audience laughed when that portion of the schedule was read. Mr. Carroll, continuing, said the schedule had' been forwarded to the Minister for Lands, and the Miniver decided tfc> offer Mr. F. Hall a. renewal of the lease of 3000 acres of the run at an increased rental. After that had been done, the following correspondence passed between the Minister tor Lands and the Land Board :

Small grazing run 42, Wuingaromia, S.D. Precis of correspondence relating to renewal of lease : • —- Memo. (18th February, 1908), reporting that the valuer had stated this run of 4195 acres was not suitable for subdivision, and; that Kind Board had adopted the report and recommended it for the apprpval of the Minister. (Schedule on file shows area, prairie value, present rental, proposed rental, name of lessee, and. that run “Is not suitable for subdivision,” as reported by iCommisioner.

Memo. (22nd February, 1908), from Commisioner Crown Lands to

Under-Secretary enclosing copy of ■notice sent to lessee (Mr. Hall) of run 42, .stating that it was Board’s intention to recommend for con-

sideration of Minister that lessee only be offered' renewal of back portion of run, containing 3000 acres, at increased rental. Memo. (sth March), from Undersecretary to Commissioner, conveying Minister’s approval that run 42 he re-offered to present tenant at increased rent ah Memo. (2nd March), from Native Minister to Minister of Lands making,'representations on behalf of Mr. "Hall, lessee of riyi 42, in regard- to the proposal of the Land Board to cut off and re-offer portion of mu to the public. Minister’s reply- to Natiye Minister that enquiries wore being made into*the position. Memlo. (Gth March), from Undersecretary to Commissioner, asking to bo supplied Avith special- report .relative to subdividing rim into two lots. Memo. (lOtli March), from Com-missio-nor to Under-Secretary, reporting that Ranger submitted alternative -proposals, viz., that front portion of 1200 acres should be cut out and. put under optional' system, or the lot as a whole offered to the present tenant, as a S.G.R., subject to Minister’s approval. The Minister, however, decided st-h March that present tenant should be re-offeredi lease of whole run at increased rental.

Telegram (7th May), from Un-der-Secretary enquiring whether ■notices sent to lessees granted renewals, as informed Hall had not ■received notice. Telegram (9th May), from. Commissioner to Under-Secretary, advising all lessees notified of Board’s recommendations February last. Telegram (lltih May), from Un-der-Secretary to Commissioner asking when, final notice sent to Hall, lessee run- 42 ? Commissioner replies (11th May) on Bth instant. (Copy of telegram): “Napier, 16/10/08 (urgent). Under-Secretary of Lands, Wellington,—Re schedule referred to, the words f is suitable’ should have appeared against S.G. -Run 42, instead, of the word ‘not,’ which was a clerical’ error. Will .post another copy as desired. —(Signed) Henry Trent, Commissioner. ’ ’ Mr. Carroll, continuing, said that he wrote a letter to Mr. McNab on the question, hut in that letter he had only repeated what Mr. Hall had written, and transposed it into the third person. Mr. Carroll then readthe letter, whie-li }ras as follows;

Office of Minister for Native Affairs, Wellington, 2nd Marcli, 1908. 'Memo, for hon. Minister of Lands, —I- am in receipt of a- communication from Mr. P. Had, of Gisborne, enclosing a notice received by him from the Commissioner of Crown Lands, Hawke’s Buy, intimating that in releasing' S. G. Run 42, Waingaromai; S.D., the homestead, portion of 1200 acres was to be cut off and re-offered to the that will be inflicted upon him if th|s arrangement is carried out, Mr. Hall states that the incoming tenant would he under a severe handicap seeing that there would be loaded for improvements such as station buildings, yards, dips, etc., Which are alii situated on the portion mentioned and could not he valued at under £SOOO. . Mr. Hall complains that after many years of toil and anxiety in breaking in what has been very rough and inaccessible country from which up to the present not a penny has been taken off by way of income tho Land Board wishes to deprive him of lihe part on - which is erected his buildings, and for which there is not another suitable site. He urges that it is only fair to him that the whole block should bo included in the new lease, and requests me to make strong representations accordingly.—(Signed) J. Carrcfl. Mr. Black: Will you read Mr. Hall’s letter? Mr. Carroll: No. That letter was private. There were other matters mentioned in it. alia elector: Of course there were. (Loud laughter.) Mr. Carroll: That lettor was tho only representation I made, f never saw the Minister on the matter.

Mr. R. G. Black: You saw tho Under-Secretary for Lands. Cries of “Put him out.” Mr. G. J. Black: I want fair play. Mr. Carroll: Mr. Hall wrote to me as the member for the district. Mr. R. G. Black: You told mo you could not do anything in the matter. Mr. Carroll: Young Mr. Black came to see me on. the question of the renewal of his lease, and I told him to see the Minister for Lands. I saw the Minister for Lands, and I advised Mr. Black 'to have tho question laid before the Waste Lands Committee; and I don’t know why it was not sent there. "*--- Mr. Black:’ I knew it would be of no use.

Mr. Carroll : Why did you not allow the matter to go before the committee so that tho question could be discussed on the floor of the House?

Mr. Black: It is going there yet. Cries of “Put-, him out,“ “Sit down,” and (to Mr. Carroll) “Give him a chance to explain.” The meeting at this time became very noisy, and 1 Mr. Carroll’s remarks were frequently received Avith derision.

Mr. Carroll, proceeding, said lie Avould have liked to see the Avhole question of the small grazing runs submitted to to the Waste Lands Committee, and a report presented to Parliament. He was extremely sorry that course had not been taken. Mr. R. G. Black: It Avould have been useless.

Mr. Carroll said he dkl not think it Avoidd have been useless. He Avas prepared to lay the 'question before the committee, and Avon Id do so next session. (To Mr. Black): I Avill look after your interests as Avell as those of anyone else, be you friend or foe. If you have a grie\-anee, and I honestly believe you think you have a grievance, I will do all I can to clear the matter up; but run 42 Avas, Avith other runs, marked on the schedule as. “not” suitable' for subdivision, and most of them Avere re-leased. Proceeding to.-address the audience, Mr. Carroll said the. Land Board iioav asserted that the phrase “not suitable for subdivision,” as applied to Mr. Mali’s run Avas a clerical error, but surely the Minister could not be responsible for that—

Mr. Black: What -about Mr. Caeca r’s run ?

Mr- Carroll: It is not in the same position. The Minister acted upon tne report in the schedule sent down to him, and he took that to be . Crown Lauda Ranger’s report. (Laughter -and interruption).. He (Mr. Carroll) had since hoard' that there was/ a clerical error in the schedule, and that -a letter had been sent to the Minister from the-'; Crown Lands Office in Napier stating such to be the case. Mr. R,. G. Black: But the AT,mister had the Ranger’s reports. ■' Mr. Carroll: He bad the schedule and acted upon it. The report was not there. What happened was this: Notices were sent out. .in accordance with the schedules, -and i-t was only when the notices reached Gisborne that the mistake was discovered. No notice was ever sent to the Minister lor Lands that a mistake bad been made until October 16th. I can hardly believe that a clerical error could go undiscovered so long. Mr. Carroll, proceeding, said: J will, now -take Mr. Black’s second issue: Has the Government kept faith with the tenants in the matter of the renewals of the runs?—Yes. Mr. Black has been offered a lease of 900 acres.

Mr. G. J. Black: Yes. the rubbish. Mr. Carroll: The question is ia. -legal one. Mr. Black bas been fairly dealt with according to the law. Mr. Black: I have not.

Mr. Carroll then proceeded to read the following legal opinion, to show that the law had not been broken: There seems to be a good deal of misapprehension with regard tp the rights of lessees of small- grazing runs. Under “The Land Act-, 1892,” lessees hav-e absolute right of renewal, but. “The Land Act, 1885,” under which most of the runs about Gisborne are held, gives a lessee no right to a renewal of his lease; unless it is' determined that tlie land shall be re-leased as a small grazing run. The Law Officers of the Crown have advised that in the case of runs held under “The Land Act, 1885,” it as the function of the Governor to determine whether the land shall remain a small grazing run, or be subdivided for closer settlement. Section ' 209 of “The

Land Act, 1885,” reads las follows-: “If, on tlie determ in at ion of any ■lease, at be determined that a run, either -as to the whole or part thereof, as the ease may be, shall again be let, then, a new lease of the. whole or such, part, as the case may be, ,shall be offered to the existing lessee a-ti least twelve- -months before the expiration of Ids at a

rent to be ascertained as hereinafter specified.” But section 182 of “Tho Land Act, 1892,” is as folioavs: “On the expiry or other determination of the lease of any run, a new lease shall be offered to the existing lessee not earlier* than three years, and at least twet've; months, before the expiration of his .lease, at a rent to be ascertained as l hereinafter specified.” - . '

• Mr. Carroll, proceeding with his address, said he Avould deal Avith Mr. Black’s third proposition—“ Has the lessee of run 43, R. G. Black, been fairly dealt Avith?”—Yes!-He thought Mr. Black had been fairly dealt Avith. the lessee had been offered a lease of 900 acres, and he already owned over 7000 acres, of the best lands in the district.

Voices: That’s Avrong,”- and “What about Fred Hall?” Mr; Carroll: Taking- into account Mr. Black’s leaseholds, he oaviis over 12,000 acres of the best land of the district.

Mr.-G. J. (Black: That’s bunkum. You are talking about what I hold, not about my son. Mr. Black then asked Mr. Carroll to read a clauee from the CroAvn Land® Guide, and took the book up to the stage. **• When Mr. Black approached the stage he Avas kmdly applauded. Some one called for “Three cheers for Mr. Black,” and the theatre rang with three hearty cheers. The chairman took the book from Mr. Black, and laid it on tho table.

Mr. Carroll (excitedly) : I’ll do this —l’ll challenge anyone—l will submit the case to any person. Mr. Black can appoint a man. I Avill appoint a man; and these men can oppoint a third person. The three can then inspect Mr. Black’s run, and say Avhetlier it 'is not suitable for subdivision. The.ro is no question but that the run is suitable for subdivision. The land is good land, and if any person says it should not' be subdivided he should haA’e a look at it.

Mr. Black: You have not the right to take it.

Mr. Carroll (bo Mr. Black) : If you think the Government lias not the right to take the land, bring a case before the Supreme Court, and as long as the case is a friendly one I Av.ill help you to contest it. If you think there is no legal right to take the land let the Supreme Con re decide.

Nil*. Black: Read that clause, Mr Chairman.

Mr. Carroll: I am quite Availing‘to help Mr. Black to bring bis case liefore the Supreme Court or the House of RepresentatiA'es; or I am willing (hat. a commission should be set up to investigate the matter. I cannot say anything fairer than that. There are three .avays open to Mr. Black to have the matter A*entilatcd, and get what he asks for, “a fair deal.” Mr. Black: Read that clause I hare marked. Mr. Carroll: It i; not a clause of the Act.

Mr. Black: It is the Crown Lands guide. Air. Carroll then read something from the book.

Mr. Black: That is not the clause. Read the part I have marked. The audience roared with laughter, and cried to the candidate not to shuffle.

Mr. Carroll: I am Avilling to refer the matter t<> a commission.

Mr. Black: 1 Avill be turned out in March.

Mr. Carroll: That avl.ll not prevent you from .allowing a legal decision to be obtained.— 1 am not a hiAvyer.

Air.‘Black: T Avant a square deal. Air. Carroll: How can you get a square deal- unless you submit l your case to some tribunal.

■ This remark was greeted with groans from the audience. Mr. AY. L. Rees .stood up to appeal for order, but Avas hooted doAvn. The Mayor, avlio presided, also appealed for order, but the uproar continued. Mr. Carroll: The best I can do in the matter is to -assist- Air. Black to bring hi 9 case before- one of the tribunals I haA r c mentioned. I have no feeling against Mr. Black A A-oice: But you hav.-c for Fred. Hall.

Air. Carroll: I did l not assist Air. Hall to get a renewal of his lease. I merely referred Air. Hall’s request to Air. McNab. The Commissioner for Crown Lands now states that a clerical error lias occurred, and if that -clerical error occurred Avliy Avas it never nointed out?

Mr. R. G. Black: It was pointed out to the Alihister in August last. Air. Carroll: If it had been pointed out every run AA r ould have been cut up. _ Ait elector: Except Fred Hall’s. Air. Carroll: I have- said all I have to- say on the question, .and it is for Air. Black to accept my offer.

The Minister then Avent on to speak on other subjects.