BOROUGH LOAN.

Gisborne Times, Volume IX, Issue 901, 27 May 1903, Page 2

BOROUGH LOAN.

THE QUESTION OF INTEREST

At the meeting of the Borough Council last night the Mayor woven the motion oi which he had given notice, so th.it the loan, approved ot at a poll, might be obtained at It per cant instead of 4 per cent, a vote on that point to be taken. The Mavor said tie poll had been carried 01: tbe'22nd January. Food, and it was time something were done. They h:ul wattou in the hope of the money mailed bi c in n > cltcapev, but instead it had become tighter, and he tuoUgat they could notcxpic to g t it cheaper that: the Government and other large bodies wi re paving. \\ .libirere

scimed tile uniy place where they cuUn. net good water within their means. The amount to pay for interest had previously been set down for .LfiOUJ, and the iiicveast u amount would be TddTj. lie would like to have seen a sinking fund, but other boroughs were borrowing without such a hind, He did not like to burden the rate payers too heavily. Water was an essential ot hie. and he did not anticipate that any would change their mind on that point. He went on to deal with the amount of rate required, showing that with the increased valuation the borough was in a better position now to pay 41 per cent, than they were to pay 4 per cent, when the loan was first approved of. In his motion he reduced the estimate for drainage from £30,000 to ,£24,000. Cr Whiuray : You don’t mean sewerage to be included in that drainage V

The Mayor: That is for tlie Engineer. T.ie subject had been so much before them that he thought ho need not go further into the matter. Cr Wbinray said that circumstances were considerably altered. By adopting tiie scaled pan system they would be able to save thousands in drainage. They might go into committee and decido that point, and thereby enlist greater support. They must all agree as to the need of water and drainage, but they did not want a problematical scheme. Cr Whiuray seconded the motion pro forma. Cr Lysnar moved as an amendment

That this Council shall, before going buck to the ratepayers, consider in committee the following matters, which have not yet been decided or provided for in the loan proposals as authorised by the ratepayers (a) Which of Mr Mostayer’s threo alternative drainage schemes shall be adopted ; (b) alternatively that they bo disregarded and the septic tank system be considered and adopted; (c) how is the shortage of .£12,970 which is required, according to Mr Mestayer’s estimate, over and ab ive the £35,000 authorised by the ratepayers for tho Waihirere water scheme to be provided for ; (d) how is the land required at Waihirere to be paid for ?” Those, ho said, wore items which anyone dealing with tho question on its merits and with a desire to be honest to the ratepayers would deal with. Let them go into committee, throw off their mask and not be tied to one speech, and obtain a scheme suitable to the people. Tho figures they were again going to tho people on wero untrue. Ho appealed to tho new

Councillors to see that the matter was gone into in a straight way. There had beon too much of this smothering up of things. Tho Mayor told them often enough to stick to the engineer, yet hero he was discrediting Mr Mestayer’s figures by £12,000 to £13,000. The Mayor said that the engineer was not responsible for that reduction. He went on to explain that by taking tho pipes round by Aberdeen road instead of along Dy tho Whataupoko to tho bridge a substantial saving could bo made in the mains.

Cr Lysner : That is tho first time I have heard that. The Mayor : I have explained it often. Cr Jones : I have explained it several times.

The Mayor said Cr Lysnar’s amendment hardly touched the point which was as to tho question of interest. Cr Lysnar said they should consider tho matter before going back to the ratepayers. In reply to Cr Johnston, tho speaker went on to explain, as on previous occasions, how ho arrived at the cost from Mr Mestayer’s figures. The Mayor said that, allowing for tho use of tho latest steel pipes as used in the Coolgardio supply, the cost for the nine miles of mains should bo X‘I2,OUG from the head works to tho Turanganui bridge, the cost of tho trenching being extra. Cr Lysnar : Mr Mostayor says that it is £24,000 ; you say that he is wrong ') Tho Mayor : I am not taking Mr Mestayer’s estimate ; I am giving the cost ot the pipes to bo obtained in the colony. Cr Lysnar : As against Mr Mestayer.

Tho Mayor went on to show that ho was basing his calculations on tho distunco and the pipes obtained for Wanganui. Cr Lysnar said that the Mayor’s remarks showed prudence of not accepting Mr Mestayor’s report in favor of Waihirore, when tbero was such a discrepancy between his figures and those of the Mayor. The latter said that Mr Mestayer’s figures were wrong by £12,096. The Mayor : I never said that they were wrong.

Cr Lysnar said that that was the only logical conclusion, and if tho figures were so much out in one part how much might they not be out in other respects. Ho wanted the Council to go into tho whole question, and evolve a scheme that they could place before the ratepayers with confidence. Continuing, tho speaker pointed out that Mr Mestayer said that “ a slight saving ” might be made if they took tho pipes via Aberdeen road and did not supply the over-river suburbs. The Mayor said that these were questions of detail to decide. Should tho Council be ruled by two members ? They had been beaten in tho Council and at the poll.

Cr Lysnar : “ I was beaten unfairly at the poll.” Then holding up a leaflet signed by the Rev. EL Williams, he said that statements therein were absolutely wrong, and bad entirely misled the ratepayers. Continuing, ho said they should have considered the Waimata scheme. The Mayor : That has been condemned for twenty-five years. Cr Lysnar : It has been no more condemned than Waihirere. The Mayor said that no engineer could be got to support it. Cr Lysnar replied that three engineers bad reported, and none were against it. The Mayor : No engineer favored Waimata as against Waihirere. Cr Lysnar : They did not pit one

uirainst the oilier, hut, there were three experts in favor of Waimata at'-il tliey said the supplv could Ik ohtaiued jor £II,uOH. Referring tr drainage, he said the septic lank could he obtained for a good deal less titan IMestayer's scheme. He desired the whole matter to he gone into in committee, as he felt. he could not act the old Councillors to consider them as lons as the press representatives were there. Cr -Jones : You want to shut the press out ? Cr J.ysnar said he could not expect: to set the old Councillors to speak their miads unless the press were exeluded. The .Mayor: ] thought you wanted information for the public? Cr .Jones : I am not afraid of lettins my opinions he known through till- mess

(‘r Lysnar : No more am 1. O'r Jones : Then why shut the press out ? Or Lysnar : Because these matters will not he considered unless we '- r o into eonmiil tee. Or Whitney thought information siven by Hie .Mayor that evening 111 - tilled tiie Oonncil reconsidering: tile Whole position. Or Lysnar said they were always being asked to hack the Knsinrrr's opinion, and yet llrev lta<i tiie Mayor showing what a {'real saving could he made. The .Mayor: We paid ‘Sinn tor engineers’ opitiions to please you. Or Lysnar : I was not on rite Count:i 1 at tiie time. Or Jones: But you attended tiie meet ins in the public hall, and I think put your name down for £2a towards the guarantee.

Cr Lysnar : Yes ; and I would sooner have paid it. That is the only thing the Council did by the poll. Cr Jones : It saved your & 25. Cr Lysnar said yes, the Councillors had saved their £-5, and that

was the first and only thing that they had done on the loan question .since tit'.' poll, lie went oil to urge that tile whole question he gone into on its merits. Mr Mestayer had said that septic tanks would cost iHi.iif.Mi, while the agent for the tanks said they voulu c<iiilr;ut to supply them at ill .In each, four being required. An engineer should he truthful and reliable; he would withdraw truthful, and say accurate and reliable. Cr . I ones ; You don't want him to he truthful, then Cr Lysnar said that the question of .septic tank'- slowed that Mr Mrstayef's report was not accurate and reliable. lie .'toped the new Councillors would assist, Cr Wbinray. and himself m tills matter. l'r Jones said that for once he a.greed with Cr I.ysiinr—they should have water and drainage, but he disagreed wall him on other points.

They had fought this question out many times, and Cr Lysnar was skill on the old subject of l lie meaning given by a semicolon in the printed report of Mr Mestayer s scheme, but, he bad never yet been able . to get him to look at, tlie manuscript. The thing was there so that, anyone who could read plain English could understand. lie went on to show how the different figures were arrived al. Iml saiii that he was aware that, by constantly hammering at the thing Cr Lysnar was causing some people to believe there was something in what he said. It was

their duty, he held, to make every saving they could in the details ot the original scheme. It a man borrowed bond on mortgage to build a house be would be a fool to spend tlie whole amount if lie could get the place he required built for iHiid. lb' suggested that before again submitting the matter to the ratepayers, a

finance committee should ascertain 1 fie actual amount, at which the loan could be obtained, so as to put the question as plainly as possible. lie Went oil to refer to loans obtained in other places, specially mentioning the ease of one body which obtained money at. from 4 to II per cent, and were treated so fairly that a good deal could be saved in the handling of the money. They were allowed also to purchase their debentures out of the sinking fund, which removed one strong objection to a sinking fund. The Mayor said he had satisfied himself that the money could be obtained at 4A per cent. Cr Whiuray said iliac lie would second Cr Lysnar’s amendment; ho had only seconded tho Mayor’s motion pro forma. He went on to urge that tho question of the sealed pan for sanitation and other substantial savings mentioned justified them in reviewing the whole question, as there was no need to go for a loan oi £75,000 if they could do with a great dual less.

Cr Somervell said to an extent he favored both motion and amendment, lie was strongly in favor of water and drainage, but between the figures in the report and those quoted by Cr Lysnar thero must bo some discrepancy. lie could not understand it yot, but would like to do so, and he thought that a further opportunity should be given them. Cr Lysnar: Will you second the amendment ? Cr Somervell : Y T es.

Cr Morrison said that it was after 11 o’clock and some of the councillors were away. Ho proposed an adjournment of tho debate.

Cr Johnston said that drainage was a subject that required clearing up. Mr Mestayer’s scheme, ho understood, was only for sewerage and not for dealing with surface water. A large portion of the upper part of tho town was under water during the winter months, and people hal voted for the loan in tho belief that this surface water would be dealt with. If the drainage was only for sewerage they would vote against tho scheme, as they had always been led to understand that any schcmo would include surface drainage. Even if they had to pay rnoie they should provide for that. At this stago it was agreed to adjourn tho debate until Friday night.