WATER SUPPLY SCHEME.

Gisborne Times, Volume VI, Issue 156, 13 July 1901, Page 3

WATER SUPPLY SCHEME.

DISCUSSED BY THE COUNCIL.

As adjourned meeting of the Borough Council was held last night. Present — The Mayor (Mr -T. Townlev), and Councillors Kennedy, Miller, Morrison, Jones, Hepburn, Lysnar, and Whinray. Tiie Mayor read the resolution proposed at the previous meeting, and said that those who had spoken on it could not speak again, but those who had not done so would have that right, and also the mover. Cr Lysnar said that if the motion did not tie the Council down he would vote 1 for it. Cr Hepburn said that in going in for the scheme they had employed Mr Me-s----ti.yer, considered tiie best authority in New Zealand, and as he had selected Waihirere, he (Cr Hepburn), would have no hesitation in following him. The average rainfall for 23 years had been taken, and should be a good guide : the water was of the best, there was no fear of its being polluted or getting silted up. Cr Miller said lie did not see wnat else : they could do. What they had now io ■ ascertain was the financial position, as to whether they could afford it, and place \ the matter in the hands of the ratepayers. He congratulated the Mayor on the stand

the latter gentleman had taken ; he had been a keen supporter of Waihirere for many years, and now that opinion was supported by the best expert in Australasia, who declared for Waihirere or nothing. When big questions like this came before them they must be guided by the opinion of experts. The question now was, “ Can we afford it ?’’ lie hoped that they could. Cr Lysnar intimated that ho had an amendment to move.

The Mayor: You cannot move an amendment now, having once spoken. Cr Lysnar questioned the statement, and asked where the rule was to be found.

The Mayor said that it was an ordinary rule of debate -there would be no end to discussion if after all had spoken a Councillor could get up and move another amendment. Cr Lysnar should have moved the amendment before lie sat down. At the previous meeting ho had, to save time, allowed Cr Lysnar to move an amendment, and he did not now see anv opening for the discussion.

Cr Lysnar : You do not know what my motion is. The Mayor : Nor dons it matter. <’r Lysnar said it was the first time he had heard of such a rule of debate ; an amendment could be moved at any time. Cr Whinray : V thought we were to consider Mr Brett’s scheme. The Mayor : That is not before the Council; we are considerin'' a report by fin expert. Cr Whinray : 1 understand that Mr JJrett’s report was to be considered. The Mayor : I do not think it is. People be continually sending in letters, and a debate would never be finished.

Cr Lysnar insisted on his right to movo an amendment.

The Mayor said he would refer it to Cr •Fonos whether a member having spoken and resumed his seat without moving an amendment could now rise again to move one.

Cr Whinray claimed that ho had a right to speak, as at the previous meeting lie bad only spoken on Mr Brett’s proposal, which the Mayor had ruled was not now before them.

Cr Jones, referring to the amendment, said that lie did not agree with the Mayor’s proposed rilling. lie thought a Councillor was entitled to move an amendment. After further dialogue between Cr Jjysnnr and the Mayor, Cr Jones said that the quickest way would he to allow the amendment to bo put. Cr Kennedy took a similar view. The Mayor said he would put it to the meeting. Consent was given. Cr Lysnar said that his main reason Was to get in some opinions The Mayor: That is what L thought. Cr Lysnar: You permitted me to move an amendment. I ask the courtesy of the Council to allow me to speak—at last meeting [ was interrupted several times, and at last had to sit down. I trust that it will not be so on this occasion. Me then moved that before any scheme was decided upon more definite and detailed information he obtained from Mr Brett regarding his plan, particularly as to the height above the town to which the water would he conveyed, and whether he would reduce the period of time mentioned in his letter in regard to when the test would he completed. He had been told that Mr Pretrj would undertake to have the water at :i height of dOft abovo the sea level, which would give sufficient pressure to fill the mains. [Crs Bright and Harding arrived at this stage.) The speaker was going on to read opinions on Waihirere, when Cr Jones rose to a point of order ; Cr Lysnar should not go back on the old debate, but should confine his remarks to Waihirere.

Cr Lysnar said that ho was confining his remarks to that. Tito Mayor said that what the Committee proposed would not lead to the expenditure of a penny—it was simply to gain information. CrLysnar might be on the committee ; what he was saying now would not have any effect Cr Lvsnar: It should have an effect. The Mayor : Lt will not. Cr Whinray : ft ought to have. Cr Lysnar said it would have an effect unless Councillors shut their cars to any

information. C'r Morrison said that Cr Lysnar should coniine his remarks to Waihircrc. He was simply putting the opinions of residents against that of Mr Mestayer. They did not want to listen to that. Or Lysnar : You don't want to listen ! Or Morrison : We have paid Mr Mestayer as an expert. Or liright said he thought Councillors were quite wrong in interrupting, instead of leaving it to His Worship to decide, die considered Mr Lysnar was quite in order, and was entitled to adduce argu-m-'nts in favor of his amendment. It would be much quicker if Councillors left C- i.ysnnr alone, and left it to His Worrp s good judgment and experience to c .i,i him up it necessary. They were now

only wasting time. Cr Harding : 1 am of the same opinion. If we are going to get better opinions than those of Sir Mestayer. let us have them. We are all men of reason. Crs Bright and Whinray : Hear, hear. Cr Harding said his only objection to Cr Lvsnar was that he took too long. (Laughter. 1 Cr Lysnar : If I were left alone I would no: take long—it is the interruptions that keep me so long. Have I your permission to proceed The Mayor : Yes. Cr Lysnar then went on to quote the signed opinions of gentlemen of long experience iu the district. After reading the opinions with regard t ■ Waihirerc. Cr Lysnar quoted from Mr Mestayer's report to show that the latter did no: state positively what the nature of :'.e ground at Waihirerc was, but merely mentioned that he thought it was alright. If faults were found in the ground it would be the Council, not Mr Mestayer, who would be to blame. It was not his tMr LvsnarV) opinion that he was giving them that evening, but the opinion of some of the best and most level-headed contractors in the district. He strongly urged that Mr Brett's scheme should have the first- consideration of the Council, and after that would come Waimata. He showed that the cost of the latter scheme was estimated by Mr G. Black at £12,739. by Mr Drummond at .£13,490, and by Mr Boylan at £14.265. The Council required to have a scheme within their means, and he entreated them not to rush to Waihi-

Cr Whinray seconded the motion, and advised the Council to be cautious as to the course of.-actiou they adopted in i reference to Waihirere. He had so far r. -t been carried over the border of doubt I in reference to Waihirere. Cr Harding preferred to take the opinion of Mr Mestayer in preference to that of the several gentlemen quoted by i Mr Lysnar. All that the resolution pledged them to was that estimates as to the cost of the Waihirere scheme should be prepared, and it would be for the ratepayers to say whether they accepted 1 the proposals. He was opposed to the fttueadtueai oa the grounds that it was

only hanging the matter up for six or twelve months. Cr Jones spoke strongly against any artesian scheme. Referring to the opinions which Mr Lysnar had read, he said that the only engineer amongst them appeared to agree with Mr Mestayer. Cr Bright pointed out that before Mr Mestayer commenced work he would satisfy himself as to the nature of the ground at Waihirere. Mr Mestayer had spent a life time in qualifying for the position he held, and should be trusted by the Council. He disagreed with Cr Lysnar's amendment, and if it were lost, he would move another. The amendment was lost, Crs Lysnar and Whinray alone voting for it. Cr Bright proposed an amendment that the Council is of opinion that the recommendation of Mr Mestayer regarding the adoption of Waihirere should be adopted, and a committee be set up to go into the matter at an early date. The original proposition said to “ take all necessary steps.” They should have it clearly defined what those steps were. He thought ; his amendment would bring about unamnity.

Cr Jones : Not of Crs Lysnar and Whinray. (Laughter.) The amendment says -i adopt.” Cr Bright : If the amendment is lost I will move another. Cr Kennedy seconded the amendment. The amendment was lost, those voting for being Crs Kennedy, Bright, and Lysnar, there being six against. The Mayor said that he would put the motion without waste of time. Cr Whinray : Don’t be in a hurry ; it is a big job. The Mayor went on to speak in favor of the motion. lie said that Mr Mestayer, in going through the district, had had the advantage of the knowledge of one of the oldest and most practical surveyors in the district, Captain Winter. Mr Mestayer had pledged himself as plainly as could be. The Mayor was continuing speaking to his motion— Cr Bright : What arc you speaking to ? The Mayor: To the resolution. Cr Bright: I have an amendment to make.

The Mayor: I cannot take any more amendments now. Cr Bright: Then there is no use of my sitting here—that’s a certainty. The Mayor: I will put the motion. Cr Bright: I have another amendment to make. The Mayor: It is too late now. I have been speaking ever so long. If members will not pay attention I Cr Bright: The proper rules of debate are not carried out here. The Mayor : Well, you tako the chair ! Cr Bright: No, I won’t. “ I do not sec why f should be burked,” said Cr Bright with warmth, as he rose from his seat and was putting his overcoat on.

“ I will put the motion,” said the Mayor, who read the motion, and then called for a vote. There were six for the motion, Crs Lysnar and Whinray of course dissenting, and Cr Bright giving expression to an emphatic •* No.” On a call for a show of hands the divison was, six for and three against. Cr Miller had gone to another meeting for a short time, and was not present at the division. Cr Bright : L object to business being burked in this way. The Mayor: It is the first time I have ever, since I sat here, been accused, as Cr Bright states, of having burked anything. Cr Jones : t rise to a point of order. I do not think it right for any councillor to make such remarks to the Mayor. By this time the Mayor had rose from the chair, apparently with the intention of leaving.

‘•I vacate the chair,” said the Mayor. “ Keep the chair, Mr Townley,” urged Cr • I ones. “I do not think such remarks should be made as 1 burking ’ business.” 'Lie Mayor: lam not going to have it. Cr Bright: I gave you notice of an amendment. “ You did not," retorted the Mayor with warmth, Mr Townley at the time standing at one corner of the table, with hat in hand, and Cr Bright at the far corner opposite, also with his hat in readiness to leave.

“ If I did not give notice then I apologise,” said Cr Bright. The Mayor : I put the amendment, which was lost, and then I rose to reply. Cr Whinray : Cr Bright said that he had another amendment. Tiie Mayor : lie did not put it forward. Cr Lysnar : There was a running conversation going on. Cr Jones : What I understood was that Cr Bright said he would move another amendment if tiie one he had moved was not seconded ; but it was seconded. The Mayor : And lost. Cr Bright : I did not want to disturb von.

The Mayor : Y’ou did not disturb me, but f will have some sort of order here. The resolution is carried. You can go into my chair. Cr Jones said that Cr Bright made mention of another amendment, but his impression had been that the suggestion made by Cr Kennedy had included that. Cr Lysnar suggested that the Committee comprise the whole Council. “ What has become of Mr Brett’s scheme," pleaded Cr Whinray, and that speaker went on to eloquently plead the cause of the artesian scheme, which seemed to come as oil on the troubled waters, for both the Mayor and Cr Bright resumed their scats, and soon afterwards complete harmony appeared to have been restored. At a later stage, when in Committee, it transpired, as Cr Bright goodhumoredly explained, that the amendment which he intended to propose was quite in accord with the Mayor’s own views. Cr Whinray urged, and was supported therein by Cr Lysnar, that the artesian proposal should not be shelved, but no definite decision was arrived at. It was resolved that the committee be composed of the whole Council, with the usual quorum. It- was agreed to allow Dr Valentine's report to stand over until the ordinary

meeting. It was resolved that the drainage scheme he referred to a committee of the whole Council, and the Council then went into committee to consider the report. Cr Lysnar strongly urged that the septic tank system should be adopted. Crs Kennedy and Miller advised that on all doubtful points specific questions should be asked of Mr Mestayer. The Mayor considered that modifications could be made that would make the scheme suit for the present. Crs Jones and Morrison spoke in favor of a piecemeal system that would be of great benefit without over - taxing the people, while the main scheme of emptying the sewerage at Wainui was adhered to.

Crs Whinray and Hepburn said that the upper end of the town would naturally he opposed to being rated for a scheme if they did not get benefit from it. Cr Bright said that the committee should discover what amount of rate would be borne : he estimated that a .£'60.000 basis would mean a shade under two shillings extra. Cr Kennedy agreed with Mr Bright's idea as to procedure. He believed that it would mean a 4s rate altogether, and they should plainly state so. Crs Morrison and Jones believed that the work would be done for less, and considered it would prejudice the scheme if it went forth that a 4s rate would be necessarv.

Cr Lysnar raised the question of amalgamation. and gave his estimate that £IOO,OOO could be raised at a rate of only Is 9d.

At 11.10 p.m. the meeting was adjourned until Tuesday night.