PARLIAMENT.

Evening Star, Issue 4229, 15 September 1876, Page 2

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Wklunoton, September 14. . evening a letter was read fromthe Governor notifyingthtt *fte'HS&. Mr Hall had resigned his seat. The Hon. Mr Watkrhousb inquired if the Government intended to nominate- Messrs Hall and Ormond to the Executive at the end of the session.

The Hon. Dr Pollen said that sufficient for the day was the evil thereof and he hoped the Council would proceed to the real work of the session. ! «. 3 ?^.P on - M F WATKRHotrsB then moved a i? sfVfiTr avw * beell Elated by the Hon. Mr HaH, hw Beat be declared vacant. ; ;, TheSPBAKBK doubted whether it.wonld be competent for the Council to (Leal with the matter after the Governor's merjsage. After some diseussion the debate was adjourned. Yesterday several bills were advanced a stage, the Public Health and Lawrence Athenaeum Bills being read a second time. HOUSE ©fl REPRESENTATIVES. September 1&; At the afternoon's sitting, the Otoepopo Athenaeum Reserves and the Lawrence Recreation Reserves Bills passed their third reading.

THE POSITION OF MINISTERS. Mr Wason asked to move without notice, and he did so without consultation, that the Speaker issue writs for the election of members for Egmont, Kaiapoi, Napier, Clire, Christchurch, and Waikato. * The Spkakke ruled that the member for Coleridge was out of order. The question had been under the consideration of a «om. S?™ft: "j 1 ■.*• did not think any metion of * that sort should be allowed to intarcirit the work of that committee. * Sir G. Grey also roße to a question of privilege, aU moved that the House proceed witn no further business until the "report of th« Dißqualiflcatioa Committee, on the 12th, was taken into consideration.

The Premier proposed as an amendment that the report of the committee be considered at once. * He was confident that a majority of the House were forgetting on with the business with as little delay as possible. The immediate consideration of the report having been ordered, Sir George Grey moTed that the House concur in the report. The Hon. G. M'Lean reminded tbo House that although there were legal opinions that the Government broke the Disqualification Act, there were other legal opinions that they had not broken the Act. If the Government had brought themselves under it they had done so inadvertently, and if they had violated tie letter they had not violated the spirit of to 3 law. Ho was surprised at tht great pro-consul taking advantage of su. hj a quibble. He (Mr M'Lean) did not value a Beat on those benches at all, and wben he accepted a seat upon them had done so without pay or emolument, bntit was idle to deny that the motion was one purely emanating from party . spirit. Such tactics as those reserted to of trying to unseat a Government upon a paltry quibble were unworthy of an Oppositien. An any rate he was certain the Government had right upon their side, and he hoped that the House would signify their opinion of the matter by giving a majority for the Government.

Mr Reid pointed ont that the report gave no particulars as to'what extent the Act had been violated. At any rate it appeared that there had been an unnecessary amount of hair splitting. He would act in this matter in an independent manner, but, while he would not be too scrupulous in taking advantage of any laxness of a Ministry to remove them from office, he would not be one to do this if it would throw the affairs of the country into confusion. 'lhe infringement of the Act was merely technical, and not in spirit. Tn committee he moved the insertion of the word "technically," bat that was not deemed nece.iaai y. Then he moved that the report bo so nniended as to make it clear that the ■•

related to travelling allowa.' ~ iHXt this was lost by a large j'he presett Ministry was not the a j that 11 *d infringed the Act. The Premier thought the question lay in a nutshell. If the Act hafl been violated, the question was how it was to be remedied ? The Act was passed to preserve purity of I'ailiament, not to entrip members by a te-.-hnicality. He put it to the House, did tlu<y, or any of them, say lhat the Act was violated from corrupt motives? Not a siiiyls member would say so. In order to settle the question at once he would move as an amendment—" That it was expedient that a Bill of Indemnity should be introduced forthwith to indemnify the members of the .Executive Council from any consequence arisiug from the Disqualification Act, &c. Mr Moorhouse had pointed out in Committee that if they inserted in the i*eport aoojc words to say whether the Government acted corruptly or not it would be accepted ai .q instruction to the House, aad would save time and enable them to get on with tli j business. He asked the member for the Thames if he believed the Government did wot sin corruptly to forbear and aid the Government in getting on with the business of the country.' Mr Rolleston agreed with the member for Taieri in some respects, but he thought that the House should not set aside the report of the Committee. It was for the House to say whether the Ministry had vacated their seats. If the Premier would accept it, he was prepared to move, as an addition to the original motion—" That the House concur in the report, but that, under the circumstances, Ministers are not justified in vacating their seats."

Mr Sjtout said if the report of the Committee was not specific, the fault lay with the members for Wairau and Christchurch City. He wanted a specific report setting out in what way Ministers violated the law, but he was overruled. He held that the spirit and the letter of the law had been ■violated, wherefore the House should not be asked to stand between Ministers and the electors. If Ministers thought the report was wrong, they ought to come down with an amendment that the House does not concur in it, and not attempt to bring in an indemnity; Bill by a side wind. Mr Stafford pointed out that all the amendments, on the face of them, showed there had been an infringement. Touching the report, he made bold to say that it was not only bald, but absolutely, incorrect, as a matter of fact; and it it was to be intelligible to future Parliament.), it would require to be more specific. The truth was that there was not a breach of the Disqualification Act at all, but there was if that Act was read along with the Civil last Act. The Premier would act well if he accepted the proposal of the member for Avon. Mr Montgomery was of opinion that the true solution of the difficulty was this : as there were only seven members qualified according to .the Act, the two last Bwern in were the only ones disqualified. 'I hey must have been, sworn in individually, and there could be in determining who ■were the two last, and it was with these the House would have to deal. He opposed treating the mstter from a party point, and hoped the ufo»'. rnment would withdraw their amendme it.

Mr Murray was of opinion that Ministers should go before their constituents, otherwise they would be neither mors nor less than nominees of the House.

Mr Thomson thought the Government ought to take the consequences of their indiscretion.

The Hon. Mtßowpn, in referring to the question, pointed out that the case of the Marquis of Hartington was , a very much stronger case than the one now being discussed, inasmuch as his appointment as a fifth Under-Secretary was done in the teeth of an expraas Act of Parliament. That Under-Secretary, sat and voted for a year before the irregularity was discovered. "What did the House of Commons do ? All sides at once joined in making the matter right, and if that were not done, public opinion was strong enough to compel them to do so. The action of the member for the Thames in taking proceedings in the v upreme Court was not becoming in a leader of the Opposition. A SCENE. Sir George Grey rose to a point of order. He had heaid offensive expressions from a member behiud him (Mr Pyke), who had applied the term " disreputable " to himself. The Speaker remonstrated with

j»*r Pyke, who explained, that the word was not intended to reach the ears of the member for the Thames. It was uttered sotto voce to iimself, and not intended to be heard, and he did not see that he was called upon to apologise in such a cane. If the hon. member would have his opinion, he would say that it was discreditable for any hon. member of the House to place himself in the position of a common informer. These words were taken down.

The Premier hoped that the hon. number would express his regret for his hasty expressions. MrPYKB, having been called on for explanation, did express his regret for having been led mtbisuch intemperate expressions in conseqiiejwe of having been overheard in the first instance.

Mr Pykefehen retired, and a good deal of discussion followed. -

Mr Wason proposed, a* an amendment on

motion that. Mr Tyke's explanation be satisfactory, thut the House ceosure the hon. member.

!Mr Montgomery wanted Mr Pyke to apologise to Sir G. Grey personally. Captain Russell pointed out that this would be stifling free debate. Why had they not interfered when Sir George Grey a hundred times that session used words discreditable and shameful?

Mr Wason said that Sir George Grey only used these expressions in a Parliamentary Senas.

■ The Hon. Mr Bowen pointed out what an amount of harsh language members of the Government had to put up with, and hoped the House would not begin now to nuke nice distinctions.

Sir George Grey made a personal explanation. The course he took had been done purely from a sense of public duty. He pitied anyone who thought he expected to take a penny. Someone ought to dare to take this step, and he dared it, risking the very considerable expense he must necessarily incur. He knew when he took this step he did that he must be prepared to put up with terms of opprobrium. After some further discussion, A division was taken, and the amendment was rejected by 35 against 32. m At the evening sitting Mr Stout continued the debate, he deprecating Mr Fyke's expression. The Premier objected to singling out this instance; at the same time he asked the hon. member for Dunstan to withdraw his expressions.

Mr Swanson insisted upon everyone who transgressed obeying the Speaker's orders, and Mr Pyke had refused to do that.

After further remarks, a motion censuring Mr Pyke was passed. Mr Pyke. then re-entered the Chamber, and when apologising, said he hoped his martyrdom would be the means of inducing softer language in debate than had prevailed hitherto.

The Hon. Mr Bowen resumed his remarks in defence of the position of the Ministry.

Mr Rjces, who followed, took the opposite view. He argued that the Ministry had lost their seats, and should go again before their constituents. Unless they did that they would go from bad to worse, and en tangle themselves in inextricable difficulties, and this should have been done at once.

Mr Whitaker went at some length into the argument, the gist of which was that when he gave his opinion on the matter at first he was positive he was right, and the more he examined the question the more was he convinced that he had taken the correct view, and he would like nothing better than to fight the matter out in the Law Courts, despite the opinions given to the contrary. He quoted several precedents from the House of Commons to show that the House of Commons and the House of Representatives were the sole judges of their own questions of privilege; that it rested with them and not with any committee to decide whether the seat of any member of the Housfi had been vacated.

Mr De Lautour strongly opposed this view.

Mr Sharp said one fallacy underlay all the arguments on one side, namely, that it was assnmed that all the Ministerial seats had been vacated, while the committee only said they were of opinion two seats had been vacated. He did not want the business of the country thrown into confusion, but wanted an Indemnity Bill passed. Mr Ballance referred to the sittings of the committee to show that a great divergence of opinion prevailed at that committee, but the whe ie tenor of their debate went to show that m arely a technical error had been committed, and that the punishment cl sending Ministers again before their constituents was too much for the offence.

After a good deal of discussion en each side,

Sir George Grey asked for an adjournment, so that he might be enabled to make a suitable reply to certain attacks made upon him, and explaining that he was too weary then to do so.

This was opposed by the Government, and the resolution being put was declared lost by 36 against 24. The Premier's amendment was then put, when Mr Sheehan moved an amendment to the effect that the Indemnity Act would not exempt Ministers from money penalties, and that the committee should be instructed to re-consider their report. The Government opposed this, and after considerable discussion, Mr Ballance moved his amendment, which was in substance that none of the Ministerial seats were vacant. TALKING AGAINST TIME. Mr Stout tried to move an amendment intercepting this, but was ruled but of ordei. Mr Rees then took the floor, at three o'clock, and kept up the debate till 6.10 a.m., when The Sfeakek said he would resume-'the chair at 10 a.m.

During Mr Rees's speech there, were various interruptions, and several attempts to get strangers removed from the body of the House and the galleries, but unsuccessfully. ' > ABOUT THE LOBBIES. (From our own Correspondent) Wellington, September 15. The "Wellington papers make the statement that, should the present political difficulty result in Ministers having to go before their constituents, Mr Stout will resign his seat for Dunedin, and contest Waikouaiti with the Commissioner of Customs. Mr Rees is still (1.40 p. m.) talking. The Opposition refuse to allow the House to decide on Mr Ballance's amendment. The Government are determined to fight it out, and the question is now one of pure physical endurance. The debate is not likely to end for a week.

(Per Press Agency. J At 10 o'clock this morning the House re. sumed. Mr Rees continued, admittedly speaking against time. Just a sufficient number of. membersjwere present to form a quorum. Mr Rees or his p,*rty will probablv speak tdl 2.30 p.m., when another day's sitting is. supposed to commence. The Speaker will then formally open the House by prayer, and after the usual preliminary business it is understood Ministers ask the House to dispose of the Disqualification resolution, when it will again be competent tor the Opposition to continue the discussion and stave off the division, which it is said will result In a considerable majority for the Government. J