PARLIAMENT.

Evening Star, Issue 4200, 12 August 1876, Page 2

PARLIAMENT.

[Bt Telbgbaph.l THE SEPARATION DEBATE

Wellington, August 12. Mr Maoandrew continued as follows: He took leave to say most of the forty-seven Provincial Councillors of Otago, in intelligence or capacity, would compare with any forty-seven gentlemen in the House. There were many other advantages from having two Legislatures in the Colony. It would give the Colony a fresh start, impart new political life to North and South, transfuse fresh vigor and energy into the body politic throughout the country, and kindle those fires of rivalry which, to a large extent, had been and were being extinguished under the influence of a grinding Centralism. If the

proposals were carried into effect they would open the portals of public life to thousands of men who, under the Government proposals, would be debarred from enter* rug the political arena, and their aspirations confined to the parish business of road boards and county councils. The present honor of being a representative was dearly purchased at personal sacrafice except to those living within an easy distance of Wellington. What necessity was there for the Middle Island being subject to these inconveniences ? There was nothing in the atmosphere of Wellington which imparted a flavor to legislation. Was it absolutely essential that the Middle Island should have the assistance of Taranaki and Hawkes Bay, to enable them to make scab and fencing Ordinances ? Were they incapable of distr - bhting their revenues Without assistance from the North. The thing to his mind was preposterous and absurd, looked at from any Soint. He was persuaded that there were himreds of men in the Colony who would adopt any Legislature, and whose services would be at the disposal of the people if the seat of Government were accessible by land and so situated that they could visit tbeir homes occasionally. Referring to the proposed Counties he said they would not be acceptable or suitable to the whole Colony—no system acceptable to the - Colony could posS'bly emanate from this Legislature. Local self-government, to be effective, must be

spontaneous—emanating from the people concerned. Thus Legislature might const! tute paper Municipalities, Road Boards, and Counties, but nothing of the sort was really required unless forced upon us by the people interested, which was not the case at present. Petitions in their favor there were absolutely none, and the same remark applied to the Abolitio i Bill. The action of this legislature from tirst to last under the instigation of the member for Timaru had heen a mischievious tampering with the Constitution. It had been a peculiar feature in New Zealand legislation that instead of following up the requirements of the people its business had been a f-ort of tUllclantd anticipation of these requirements. The result was that there were some thousand Provincial ordinances upon the statute bools, besides 1,500 Colonial statutes, most of them necessarily inoperative. Never was a

; country so overburdened with statute laws |as was this. Contrasting the cost of Previn* cial adm’nistration in Otago which was capable of dealing with the affairs of the Colony —though ho had no such ambitious desire—he sad upon its scale they could have three Legislatures and Executive bodies in each is and not costing more' than half the Colonial Legislature and Executive now cost. Another reason weig ing with him for supporting the resolutions was that he felt perfectly satisfied Provincial Councils are the channels through which Local Government c.vu be best extended and applied to outlying districts, and with that view he should have much preferred had the resolutions pointed in the direction of two Provinces in each island. No doubt, ultimately the thing would result in that, and in the meantime he must be content with one. As illustrating his idea he stated that in tago they had no less than twenty-four municipalities, and they

had road boards, and education boards, all of which emanated from,- and were more or less supported by the Provincial Legislature, and they had not found it necessary to come to the House to get those things. Surely if one Province could have done this, there was nothing to prevent another doing so. Tney had also upon their statute book provision whereby counties could be created all over the Province—-counties with substantial endowments out of.the land fund, not with residue thereof, as under the Government proposals, which, as the member for the Taieri would point out when he spoke, was nil so far as Otago was c >ncemed. Under the Otago scheme the county endowment was the first charge on the laud fund. If the districts in Otago had wanted counties, there Was no need to come to the House ; if they had applied to the Provincial Government any time during the past few years, it would have been done, and they might have had the whole Province in at this moment; but the fact was many districts did not feel themselves ripe for it, and his opinion was that they were not yet ripe for it. The Comities Bill if passed would, so far as Otago was concerned, remain a dead letter. The member for the Du stan thought no good would come out of Dunedin, not even counties; that the genuine article was only obtainable faem Wellington. Talking of Dunedin, it

was most surprising to hear the constant assertions of the Premier of the selfishness of Dunedin. People heard again and again f Jom the Premier that 'Dnneain had grown fat at the expense of the outlying districts; they had been told in point of fact it was the grasping selfishness of the Dunedin people that formed upon the paternal spirit of the Colonial Government the absolute necessity of the revolution of the constitution of the country. No man in the House knew better than did the Premier that such state ments were unmitigated flapdoodle. During the lust ten years, and in this he challenged contradiction, if he excepted expenditure upon objects common to the whole Province —such as hospital*, gaols, and the Normal School—Dnneain has had very scant justice at the hands of the Provincial Legislature. He had no hesitation in saying that she had nothing like the proportion she was entitled to, considering that she contained about a fourth of the population of the Province. t Talk of provinc ; al centres of population—"there were more centres of population in Otago than in the rest of thM Colony put together,—(Loud laughter.) He

would go further—no Province in New Zealand had done so much for the outlying districts. Not but what a great deal more required to be done—that he granttd—but the fault was not attributable to the Provincial Legislature but to this Legislature, which had drawn from the Province upwards of a million sterling, which, had it been at the disposal of the Provincial Legislature, every sixpence would have been expended in ‘ opening up the country for the benefit ol the outlying districts, and Otago was now paying upwards of L 90,000 interest on loans, a large proportion of which—indeed the whole had been expended in opening up country, making roads and bridges, and developing the resources of that widely scattered territory; He would not be far wrong in saying at least half that amount, or L 45.000, was fairly chargeable to the goldfields as having been expended in opening up the resources of the goldfields, and this amount went far to swallow up the whole goldfields revenue. He did not make the remark in an offensive spirit towards the goldfields or their representatives, but so mnch had been said from the Ministerial Benches to raise the prejudices of the goldfields against the rest of the Colony that he thought it right to make this statement. He

had no patience with the senseless clamor and rhodomontade proceedings from the Government benches. From first to last the proclivities of the Provincial Legislature had been to decentralise. Who first set the example of subsidising road boards, stimulated by private enterprise to go into the woollen and paper manufactures, subsidised steamers, spent large sums in introducing salmon (the success of the latter he regarded as accomplished). The fact was all of this was done by the Otago Legislature, which body was now stigmatised by the Premier as unworthy any longer to exist. All he could say was that if the Otago Legis lature, with thousands at its disposal as compared with the millions of the Colonial Legislature, had. done no more to promote the intellectual, moral, and material interests of that Province than the Colonial Legislature had done to develop the resources of the Colony, he would-say- let that Legislature perish. ,(Cheers). For one he would not shed a tear to see it sink into tho ocean of abolition— With bubbling groan. Without a griTo— unineliod, uncofflned, and unknown.'

Mr Montgomery did not look upon the re solutions as a vote of want of confidence.

When he saw those resolutions, he considered. them vague, but he thought the speeches explaining them would have dispelled that vagueness. It appeared to hm that the resolutions were inopportune, and the House, would have, as a preferable course, gone on with the proposals of the Government, so that their value should have been estimated by the treatment they received. He regretted to say that the explanations of the resolutions by the member for Thames had not been satisfactory to him. One disadvantage of these resolutions was that it would take a considerable time to give them- shape after they were discussed, besides the time that would be lost iu ob-

taming the sanction of the Imperial Government. The explanations of tho member for Waikato were eminently unsatisfactory. Even supposing the Housu were favorable to which it was not, why should the land fund of Otago and Canterbury be made the common pro perty of the South Island, auy more than of the whole Colony? Why should Canterbury be called on to divide with Nelson and Westland? It was time some understanding was arrived at on this matter. Regarding the position of the North Island if these resolutions were carried, where would be the power of that part of the Colony to repress and put down a Native rising if it took place. He did not wonder tha:. Otago and Auckland felt bc- 0 , because they struggled against Abolition, but the Ministry bad brought down measures this session that practically neutralised Abolition. The Ministry’s measures this session were not only against Abolition, but went so directly against the interests of many districts that it was no wonder tnat they were unpopular.

Before he eat down be would state that, though Government measures did not take away land openly, they did so insidiously. He was anxious to preserve the unity of the Colony, and did not wish to see it < ivided into two Provinces. If it cbnld be shown to him that Separation would be for tie benefit of the Colony, he wonld be opm to conviction, bnt whether that came to pass at seme future time or not, be hoped the Government would not attempt to build up their system by general spoliation, and the taking from districts that lahd fund to which he firmly believed they , were thoroughly entitled. Mr Lumsden said he had heard no .argument during the debate justifying Abolition. If any particular Province decided to be. .abolished, let it be so; but don’t coerce those opposed to it.

Mr Mandera did not agree with the statement of other Otago members, at least bo far as regarded a satisfactory feeling with Provincial administration in the district of Wakatipu. It was true he promised to support Separation—not Separation as proposed by the member for the Thames, but a very different kind of thing. He distinctly stated that he stipulated for local self government in each district. The resolutions made no provision whatever for that. It was like a bantling thrown on the floor of the House to be dressed. He held that, on the contrary, the Government proposals provided all that the people of the l olony required, and he believea they were in. favor with the people of the Colony generally, except in such centres of population as Dunedin, that progressed at the expense of the outlying districts. He opposed the resolutions. Mr Fisher bad promised' his constituents he would support Separation if any attempt was made upon the land fund of Canterbury. While supporting the principles of these resolutions, he objected to their details as shadowed forth by the member for Waikato.

Mr Tawiti said if the Colony was going to be divided into two or three parts, from what portion was the Maoris going to benefit ? He thought there ought to be but, one Government, so that they might knovLwhere to lay their grievances. At present, ff they applied to the General Government, they were told to go to the Province, and if to the Province, they were told to go to the General Government. It appeared all that was sought was to remove the Government, take their places. The present Government had done a great deal of good to his district in establishing a school for native rbiMran, and he should be sorry to see them turned out.

Mr Karaitiana supported the resolutions. He opposed tbe Government because they wanted to lay their hands upon the Native lands. He thought, as affairs hitherto had been very bad as regarded the Natives, that by supporting the resolutions the Natives might have a chance of benefiting. Mr Tole supported the resolutions, the principle of which had been amply proved by the speeches of Sir George Grey, and Messrs Whitaker and Eees The hon. gentleman argued at considerable length that the arrangements proposed would be conducive to the prosperity of the Colony, and that it was made absolutely necessary by the extravagance and improvidence of the General Government. The hon. gentleman read a telegram from his constituents asking him to oppose the Counties Bill in all its stages, and, to endeavor to make the land fund Colonial revenue ; and, failing that, to support Separation. If these resolutions were not carried, he really did not know what would become of them. If they were lost, it would be by tbe treachery of Auckland members. The great bane of Auckland had always been the division amongst her members.

Mr Gibbs had not been convinced by any arguments he heard in defence of the resolutions. He did not, however, think the Counties Bill was exactly what people wanted | but hoped it would be put in workable shape in Committee. Mr Stevens moved the adjournment of the debate, and the House adjourned at 12.25.

House meeting yesterday afternoon

A good deal of discussion ensued upon a question by Sir G. Grey, as to whether the Government would lay before the House any reports received from the Native Lands Purchase Commissioners in Poverty BaV district.

The Native Minister did not deem it advisable. to produce reports which reflected on the character of a Government officer without giving the officer an opportunity to give some explanation. The Premier spoke at some length, in order to show that the demand made would establish a very bad precedent. The fact of it was that this Government officer, in his report sent in, made certain grave charges against several other Government officers. Well, the Government had not deemed it right to demand an inquiry before they had acquainted the accused with the sx parte charges made against them, and calling on them for anexplanation. Messrs Reader Wood and Stout spoke very strongly against the refusal to lay the papers on the table. * Mr Stafford regretted the ruling which enabled a debate to be raised in such a manner, as he foresaw great difficulty was likely to arise from such a practice. It appeared that if the full explanation given by the Premier had been given by the Native Minister in the first place the House would not call for papers. Sir George Grey commented on the fact that the ativc Minister concealed from the House the reports. Referring to the remarks of the member for Timant, he said that hon. gentleman misapprehended the whole spirit of his remarks, and he begged to inform that hon. gentleman that whole course of his (Mr Stafford’s) political career bad been to rob his fellow subjects of their rights and privileges. Being called to order by the Speaker for travelling out of the legitimate line of debate,

Sir George Grey went on to Oomment upon Native matters generally, such as murders of Europeans by Natives, and said that if any more occurred, it was very probable Europeans would go in and apprehend these murderers ; and further, that if the Government persisted iu purchasing Native land in the same way as at present, another Native war would ensue.

The Native Minister introduced the Native Land Sales Bill, to be read a first time. Mr Sheehan pointed out that this Bill would seriously affect tho welfare of the Native's of the North Island. It might he a good Bill, but it might also not be. If a Gas Bill, or other Bill of a similar kind, were to be introduced, a month’s notice should be given in the newspapers. Yet here was a lill affecting the interests of thousands of Natives who had not the slightest opportunity of knowing anything of it. Important Bills like that enght to be introduced in the early part of the session. That was due to the Natives and to the House. He suggested that the Bill should be referred to a select committee.

The Premier said the object of the Govern • ment in bringing the Bill forward now was bo enable a second reading to come on as early as possible, after which it would be referred to a Select Committee before proceeding further with if. Messrs Taiavoa, Karaitiana, and Rees supported Mr Sheehan’s views, and asked that the Bill be circulated among the Natives.

The Bill was then read a first time, and the Native Minister asked that the Bill be read a second time this day week. Mr Wakefield considered the action of the Native Minister the most extraordinary piece of assurance he ever saw. The Government were bound, m honor and' justice to the Colony that this Bill should have been trough c down at the same time as all the other Government' Bills. He had looked, like a cat watching for a mouse, for this Bill. Why, the whole future financial arrangements of the Colony depended upon it. It would be ultimately linked with the creation of a land fund for the North Island. The Government wronged both races in delaying the Bill so long, hut now that the delay had occurred it was imperative upon them now to increase the defay. It was perfectly impossible to approach the consideration of the Bill properly under three weeks. "With such an important debate progressing, it had been suggested that the BUI should be published in the ‘WakaMaori’ and ‘Te Warianga.’ They might as well paste the Bill on the under side of the table as publish it in the * Waka Maori,’ for that was the greatest scandal he knew of in connection with Native management. The whole object of the ‘Waka Maori’ was to praise up the policy of the Government. He would move, as an amendment, that the Bill be read that day three weeks. The Premier was interested in the pleasant lecture of the hon; member, who was kind enough to refer to the assurance of the Native Minister. If they wanted a sample of assurance 'they need not go the length of the Native Minister. The Premier then explained how the Government did all that conld possibly be done to advance business, and sketched out the whole progress of the business since the session opened to show that it could not well have been brought forward before. The Native Minister deprecated these warnings that sounded like threats with regard to Native uprisings, and announced that he would 'shortly make, a statement re-: garding Native affairs that would disabuse the minds of hon. members respecting the imaginary terrors purposely conjured up by members of the House.

Mr Sheehan replied to the Native Minister, and as he spoke till 5.30, it, was not settled when the Bill would be read a second time.