PARLIAMENT.

Evening Star, Issue 4198, 10 August 1876, Page 2

PARLIAMENT.

[By Telbgbaph.]

(From our Special Correspondent.)

Wellington, August 10. v In the House of Representatives yesterday afternoon. The Native Minister, in reply to Mr Taiaroa respecting compensation for stone taken for erecting lighthouse and buildings at Otago Heads, said the report upon the matter had not been received yet, but bryl been telegraphed for.

THE SEPARATION DEBATE. The following were the material parts of Mr Whitaker’s speech on Tuesday night Before he described the nature of these resolutions be would describe what he conceived to be the proper form of government, and in this he knew he was speaking the views of the large majority of those acting with him. To begin with, they required an executive to govern the countiy. He was not going to introduce himself in the character of a constitution-monger—for what he was about to propose there was authority audprecedent, and it had been found to work well wherever that precedent was in existence. As regards the Governor, he referred members to Lord Grey’s constitution of 184«, in which there was an exact description of what he conceived to be the proper arrangements as regards the Governor, and for ml details he referred members to the Royal instructions of 1846. He did not propose to adopt the latter in their integrity, but some useful .hints might be obtained therefrom. They had a Govcmor-in-Chief, with Lieu-tenant-Governors in each Island, and, he said, during the whole time ho had been in New Zealand—and he had been here since it was a Colony—he believed that during the time they had a Governor-in-Chief and Lieutenant-Governors they had more satisfactory government than they had ever had since, ihe functions given to the Governor-in-Cbief would be such that be would not require any Ministry, but simply clerical assistance. He Wished to see local government given as far as was possible, therefore it must not be supposed for one moment that it would be necessary that the Govemor-in-Chief should have a large establishment in Wellington. They should not want anything of the kind, as the General Assembly would only sit once in perhaps three, four, or five years, as was found necessary. Now he came to the government of the Provinces that would conduct the whole administration between them. He had already pointed out that.the proposed plan had been put in practice and had been found to work well, so that there waa no experiment in that. The General Ah. sembly would be confined to some half dozen subjects at the most, such as Customs, Supreme Court, lighthouses, the coinage, weights and measures, and the marriage [ laws. Now gentlemen would agree that that was little enough, yet it was quite enough. He did not see that any--1 thing more required to be done. In each island they would have a Legislature—a Provincial Legislature if they pleased to call it so, and he did not know of a better name for it—on the model of this Legislature, dealing with all questions relating to the peace, order, and good government of the two Provinces. .This government, when once established, would have power to amend or alter their constitution to a certain extent as circumstances required. As to a responsible Ministry, he should propose that there should be one for each island, standing iu the same position as did the Government now to this Assembly; and the Pr »viacial Legislatures should have full power to legislate oh all subjects save the excepted ones. As regarded the Colonial debt, the Premier and the member for Wanganui had spoken of the debt as if it was proposed to take all powers in relation to the revenues from the General Government —that the two Provinces would dole out to the General Government what it was to get, and that the public creditor would not look upon that as any security. Who put such an idea into their heads that that was to be the arrangement ? It had not been mentioned .fr m that side of the House. His view of the thing wga this—whether it was Customs revenue, or land revenue, stamps or land funds, it was all pledged to the public creditor. We must pay what we owe;

therefore do not let us hear anything more i about dealing in an unsatisfactory manner with the public creditor. .As to the mode of dealing with him, ,he should propose that the whole of the. Customs revenue should be paid in for the purpose of meeting those charges, .and it that was not enough he would have the Governor-in-Chief to take any other portion cf the revenue he thought fit. The power should devolve upon the Governor-in-Chief to see that the public creditor was paid. -He would throw the Supreme Court on the civil list, because he did not think the Provinces should interfere with that. If there was any surplus after paying into the Governor-in-Ohief’s hands revenue to meet the charges he had named, that surplus should be returned to the Provinces in the proportion it was obtained from each. As he had already said New Zealand itself furnished a precedent. The two Provinces gave com-! plete satisfaction until the Constitution Act came and smashed everything without asking our leave. He repeated that it was not proposed to dole out anything to the Federal Government. Certain revenues would go into the hands of the Governor-in.Chief, who would be charged with the duty of taking oare that the claims of the public creditors were satisfied. This would give ten times better security to the public creditor than he now possessed. The federal Government would not have a vast establishment; it would employ few people; but those employed would be-weU paid. There was a plan Which would prevent the necessity for the General Assembly meeting even as often as he had sketched whenever a law was passed by the Northern Legislature in exactly the same words as it was passed by the .Southern Legislature it should at once become the law of the Colony, without the intervention of the Federal Legislature. Bo too with any alterations in the Customs tariff were mutually agreed upon. It was only when the Provincial Legislature could not agree upon a law thu the General Assembly would be called together by the Governor, and instead of sitting as it uqw did for five or six months, its business might be settled In a week. He hoped there was now enough7information about the resolutions. .Nothing e mid be more simple than, to give effect to them—there was not the slightest difficulty in the world that he was aware of. .

(Ptr PfmAgmg*) Yesterday afternoon at 2.90 Mr Reader Wood congratulated Ministers that they had at last entered the lists, having been unable to strangle the debate without the House being able to give the question fair - consideration. This debate, and others that must follow upon Constitutional matters, must be regarded as the death-knell of the Constitution under which the country had thriven—runner which the fern and tussock had given place to the corn-field and meadow, riven now, although they had been two mouths in the House, it was impossible for anyone to say what machinery of government would supersede the system swept away. He loo'' ed on the two Bills brought down by the Government as' wretched half measures that ■ u -*° S l ®*? the question they dealt with in any comprehensive manner-in-deed, any Government ought to be ashamed of them. They were mere temporary expedients to enable the Colony to get along by the device of Treasury Bills. On the cqntrary, the resolutions proposed were the only way out of the difficulty that beset the Coldny. • They met the financial arid constitutional difficulties in a statesmanlike manner. There were only two courses before them—that originally proposed, by the member for Waikato, or that proposed by ; „Sir George Grey. Any intermediate course could only be of a time-serving character. The member for Waikato demonstrated tbat there would be no difficulty in framing Bills out of these resolutions, and he felt confident that the hon gentleman carried conviction with him, and, in fact, established an outwork that would be. impregnable. He w« surprised at the way in . which the Hon. Mr Bowen referred to the arguments of Mr Rees, by palling them reckless accusations, and in designating in Greek the hon. gentleman as a wretch. To show that Mr Rees's accusations did not deserve such an epithet, he would narrate the particulars regarding the case of Mr Roberts, Magistrate, at Tauranga. The Native Minister: It is quite nutrue.

Mr Reader Wood: And who was removed to the desert of Tanpo ? It was the most foolish thing a Minister could do, and it would be impossible, under the nimnm. stances, to make anyone believe that the removal was made from pure motives. Then, as to reckless finance, Mr Rees said the Premier altered the balance by a stroke of his pen, and that last year’s finimwtl statement was wrong. Well, was it not admitted that a balance had been altered, and that last year’s statement was wrong? The Premier - himself said that it was only natural that his colleague should have overestimated the revenue. Did not the member for Akaroa over and over again point out that the estimates would never be realised ? After this he would ask did not Mr Rees’s statement demand an explanation ? In discussing the resolutions the Minister of Justice glided over No. 1 without saying anything to it. Attacking No. 2, he said it appeared as if the person who drew up that had murder upon his soul. The thud he could not comprehend in any way; he could not discover upon what basis it was framed. Well, it was not upon population, or acres. It was simply upon this basis—that the North could not pay more than L 200.000. It ’must be under that, or else the arrangement could not be made. He next took exception to the fact that no provision had been made for local machinery of Government ; but their answer to this was that each Island was to manage its own affairs. ~ A’ panegyric upon the Premier (which sent that gentleman to sleep) was the conclusion of a speech that was to have demolished the common sense speech of 'the member for Waikato, to which there was nothing to reply. The keenest sword was as nothing against a feather in the air, and the keenest logician could not reply to arguments that did not exist. There was much, however, m. Mr Button’s speech. that he heartily agreed with. He said if people were in favour of the change he would not object to ft plebiacitum, and then ho added that it was only wanted by Auckland and Otago. Why, they constituted half the Colony, and they were for Seperation. as one man,— Mud- applause from Opposition, and “No, n *h from the other side). —The Premier had. asked : If you separate, and one of you fail to meet your liabilities, what are you going to do? Why, the same thing might be asked of the Colony now. Everything that belonged to the Colony was secured to the public creditor—land, customs, and stamps. If the Government; would admit their own measures werewrong, and they would accept those of the Opposition, then they would carry them through for them."’ Last year the Government had an unwieldy majority strong e Hpngh to keep them in power, but net strong enough to pass any of their measures, and the member for Hokitika said if the head.and tail were so dissatisfied it would be better to let them go. that was just what they wanted. Let them go. They had been asked why they did not bring down a vote

of want of confidence. Well, the reason was they were afraid they would have carried it. Had they succeeded, they might have been aske'l their policy, and a vote of want of confidence moved might have been followed by their deft at. The Premier had by anticipation conjured up a landed estate for the North Island. Well, L 209,000 had been spent on that object* and L 300,000 more at the back of it, and yet the land fund of the North Island was as bad as it was before. He wondered how either the North or South Island members could ever been deluded in this manner, bat tie fact of it was, the astute Premier played one against the other. The hon. member then analysed the ten years* tables drawn up by the Premier, which were to have left the Colony, after the expenditure of Lt0,000,000, with a balance of L 29.000. The money had been spent, and instead of profit there was a serious loss. In 1873, members of that House paid little attention to financial matters. Fortunately, it was net so in the Upper House, and when the Colonial Secretary was challenged regarding the position, he said that things were going on all right, and informed them that in 1877 they wojuld have 13J millions of debt and 750 miles of railway. What waa the resalt ? Why, they were indebted 18& millions, and instead of 760 miles of railway they had only 650. In 1873 he begged the House to pause, telling them the Premier’s figures and caleolations were delusive. It was useless. They believed the Premier in preference to mm. The hon. gentleman gave figures to show the relative positions of the North • and South under the new adjustment. The people of New Zealand had conflicting interests which, together with theirtopographioal and political situation, made centralisation or any strong nationality impossible. Could any particular place or centre » * °°" ntr y l«ke this be, called a capital! How different was it with New South Wales and Victoria, and other countries. There Sydney and Melbourne were the natural dentres. Here we had a capital not made by but byin resolution of this House; but the title was defective, and hence the iealous fear of the people that they would Hut their resolutions Were as parohmeift if they did hot accord with the will of the people. He wanted to know how they were going to impose laws for Otago and Auckland if the people would nht have them. It could not, be done unless in acme perimpa as Spain governed r the Nether-

Ireland, contrary to the wishes of the people. He asked the florae ip leave them free to choose their own form of Government, even if the other parts of the Colony were willing to defy Sir Julius Vogel as Premier. In the course of his speech the hon. gentleman gave the 101 l owing figures, being the calculation upon which the arrangement between the North and South Islands had been made : KOETH ISLAND. . Customs Revenue ... £600,000 Land Fund ... WM** Total ... ... ..." ••• ... £7oo.i"t<' Interest on Colonial debt £i9O,i;uo Do on Provincial debt 67,000 Total £i57,000 •Thus leaving a balance of L 257,000 with which to carry on affairs. SOUTH ISLAND. Customs Revenue £961,000 Land Fund 790.100 Total ... £1.760,000 Interest on Colonial debt £625,000 Provincial interest 151,000 Which, taken from the revenue, left a balance available of L 994,000. Mr Stafford pointed out that until the hon. member for Waikato had given them some outline, they had nothing to go upon, and so elastic were the resolutions, that had it not been for that explanation, they might have been carried out in almost any direc-

tion. He regretted that that explanation had not come as it ought to have come, from the member for Thames. It was due to the House it should have come from him, though no doubt the relationship between the two hon. gentlemen was so close, it might almost lead them to accept the explanation as authoritative. When Mr Whitaker moved his resolutions, Sir Gesrge Grey said everyone had made up his mind how he would vote and it was useless discussing the subject, but he might as well have said the same with regard to his own resolutions. He had been appealed to as a Canterbury member to vote for the resolutions, and before going further he would inform the House that he refused to be regarded as a (’anterbury member. He claimed to be a member for Timaru, and to have the right to view every question coming before that House from a Colonial point of view, instead of a Canterbury representative. Why, he had been elected by Timaru to represent them as against the injustice of the rest of Canterbury. He deprecated these territorial meetings they had seen that session, and though he had been induced to attend one of them, he sincerely regetted it. He deeply regretted to see the members from Otago not taking that position which their influence and intelligence gave them a right to take, if they chose. There was nothing to prevent them taking a high Colonial position instead of always endeavoring to segregate the Province of Otago from the rest of the Colony. He _was very glad to hear the member for Waikato say he intended to bring forward again next year the question of the land revenue, and he would promise him a larger number of votes than he had on the last occasion. The member for Waikato told them he had always been a Separationist, but he had been long at the head of a Ministry without proposing Separation, though he did do so in 1866 and was beaten by two to one, and ever since he had slept, politically speaking. He would tell the honourable member now that he was well aware that his resolutions, lost the other day, were in fact, a real scheme, while those they were discussing were pure sbain, because they broke down, when examined, in every detail. He warned honourable gentlemen that under the proposed arrangement they would get rid of their mutual liability regarding their Provincial debts. That detail was to be determined yet. Mr D. Reid : It has been determined.

Mr Stafford : Why do you not make it appear so, so as not to mislead people ? But there were other liabilities to be provided .for, such as immigrants on their ■ way out, railway plant • ordered, shipping and other charges. Not one of these things were ever thought of. The hon. gentleman proceeded to show that various other financial obligations had not been considered or provided for in any way. It appeared to him that the accepting of these resolutions by the Colony would be like progressing with one hand tied up. Touching our relations with the public creditor, he would be prepared to go in a direction already suggested, that was, in making the land fund of the Colony show a gi eater extent than it did heretofore as assets of the Colony. As to the content and happiness referred to by the member for Waikato as prevailing when the Colony was governed as two Provinces, if ever there were a people more likely than any other to leave all forms of Government alone it was the population of the Colony; but what was the fact ? Why, reference to their library would show that very greatest dissatisfaction prevailed against the. ruling form of Government, and if that were the best form of Government ibat could be devised, why did the Government get to work and frame a Constitution the very opposite to that under which they were said to derive so much happiness ? He disagreed with Mr Wood’s argument that the topography of the Colony was against its unity, because the immense coast line and its bays and indentations actually facilitated communication between the> people of the different parts of the Colony. It was wrong for the member to speak as if the different parts of the Colony had power to govern themselves as they diked. They were a people who had always been under one system, and ho hoped they always would. There was a foreign country that had not been cited as an illustration. Did they find any remnants of Provincialism in Italy:? Did not the Italians of their own free will form a Government which managed the affairs of Italy from one centre, and had begun to restore some of the ancient glories of Italy that had been utterly lost while they had been puny quarrelling and inefficient States ? The House adjourned sits.3o p.m.

Upon resuming at 7.30 p.m., Mr Stafford continued speaking for an hour and a-half. He did not agree with the member for Waikato that there was such a necessity for an immediate change; individually he was satisfied to fall back upon the Abolition Act of last session He twitted Sir George Grey with offering to spend money in defence of the old Provinces last year, yet now he was anxious to destroy them. He would prefer absolute Colonial Separation to that, then each country could work out its own destiny. Under the present proposal however, there must be an immediate differ*ence over Customs. Where were the powers between each Island to begin and where to end? There would be various differences between the two Islands as to ocean postal services and telegraphic communication with • other colonies would be affected; besides, they had not provided for all the financial difficulties as between one a 'd the other, neither was there any provision for liabilities in course of creation. The arrangements proposed would be nothing like sufficient to provide for immigration, public works, and harbors especially. These alone would absorb all imaginary balances. How were they going to define the different powers between . the two Legislative Assemblies? What Auckland might consider absolute liberty would be considered slavery by Wellington, Marlborough, or the West Coast. It was very Well to talk of the extravagance of the Ministry, but it was the demands of the people ' that caused that extravagance. What had

tbij smq in th« put but «rtr»r»g*noe? If the Province of Auckland was not extravagant it was because she had not the money to be so with. At the same time she had been notoriously guilty of great extravagance. She borrowed half a million for a railway between Unehunga and Mercer, which was never made. He was certain that under these proposals the large centres of population would dominate over the country districts. One error in the past was making the land fund arrangement of 1856 permanent ; another error was that the public works scheme had not 'made the laud fund part of that policy, and thar the Provinces should cease from that time. They had no right to interfere at all unless there had been a great national inteiference that would have prevented the present discontent. He regarded himself more as a member for the Colony than as a Canterbury member. The relations of one part of the Colony with the other parts made them so closely associated and so dependent upon each other that any segregation must be regarded as a national Mtaoity.

{from our Sj edal Correspondent. )

Mr Stout changed the Government with .having broken every pledge to the country, and Messrs Bowen, Richardson, and M ‘Lean with being false to their constituents. Ministers had offered Dunedin a bribe of HO,OOO, which she refused to accept. He fell foul of Mr Stafford by declaring that the Provinces never obstructed Colonial progress. [Mr Stafford instanced telegraphs, to which M r Stout answered: ‘ ‘ Why the Province of Otago had telegraphs long before the Colony thought of starting them.” Mr Stafford replied: “ The member for Dunedin is talking about what he knows nothing of. In 1860 I brought down a loan for the erection of telegraphs throughout the Colony long before any Province had them, and three Provinces combined and threw out the loans.” Mr Stout; “Did the Provincial Council ever throw it out or oppose it ?” Mr Stafford'replicd that the party then opposing was as much Provincial as it was possible to be,] After contrasting the action of the Otago men with those of Canterbury, Mr Stout went on to say the men who had broken a solemn pledge made on the hustings could not be said to represent the people. Even in Canterbury if members went back to their constituents to-morrow, not one would be returned if they declared that the land fund should be common property—not even the member for Timaru with his Bill rights. He charged the three Ministers he named with misrepresenting their constituents, and said if >fhey were honorable men they would go back to their constituents and say that the Colony was in such a mess that the land fund must be taken,—(Loud Opposition cheers.) Otago sent up twentyone members, pledged to vote for Separation, and two are now voting against their consciences, while Auckland sent every man opposed to the Government proposals. Was it statesmanlike to ignore the feelings of half the Colony ? They should rather meet their prejudices, if they liked to call them such. He did not think the South would resort to force of arms ; but was it wise that such an important district as Otago should be in such a state of discontent as almost to be driven to arms ? They came of a race that would not submit, and if they did not resort to arms they would fight for what they believed to he right, and would not he ruled from Wellington. While professing not to make any threat, he warned Wellington that their want of foresight on this occasion might lead to Otago taking revenge in a way Wellington little expected, and he reminded them that a similar want of foresight on the part of Auckland would lead to the removal of the seat of Government. The discontent' in Otago at present was such as was never before known since its foundation, and did Wellington think that the people of Otigo would forget in a year what had passed? [These sentiments were loudly cheered by the Otago members of the Opposition, and the cheers , were redoubled when Mr Stout asserted that not a single member was returned from Otago pledged to vote for Abolition, while some were only returned because pledged to vote for Provinces in another name. The Commissioner of Customs had not a ghost of a chance unless he had pledged himself to a Board of Works for Otago. Where were the late members for Dunedin, Roslyn, Invercargill, Waitaki, the Dunatan, and Riverton? All gone, because they misrepresented their constituents. Were their due representation of Otago according to its population the present Ministry would not be in office a day, and the Abolition Bill would not be in force a day.] Mr Rolleston’s speech was very brief. He could not support the resolutions, because they really meant insnlar separation. He declares for modified Provincialism, with non-political Superintendents. Mr Joyce declared for Provincialism of the bluest type. If they could get Provinces as they were hewould vote formakingtheland fund common property. He is the only man who has had the temerity to defend Mr Rees in reference to the Premier’s hospitality, and amid unmistakeable dissents he said he would have felt honored to be pilloried along with the member for Auckland East for speaking his mind on the subject. The lesser guns will occupy the best part of to-day. '

ABOUT THE LOBBIES. our Special Correspondent.) Wellington, August 10. There is just a possibility of the debate being continued over Friday night. Mr Stout’s speech was admittedly intended to fetch out Mr G. M'Lean, and it will have that effect, as he intends speaking after Mr Reid and showing that when contesting Waikouaiti he stated emphatically that he would oppose Separation, as will be seen by a reference to the ‘ Daily 'fimes ’ of December 6.

Mr Macandrew speaks this afternoon.