PARLIAMENT.

Evening Star, Issue 4158, 24 June 1876, Page 2

PARLIAMENT.

[Bt Tileqjmph.]

Wkllirgton, June 24. In the House of Representatives on Thursday evening,

Sir J. Vogel rose to move that the House would not interfere to prevent the issue of the Crown grant for the Piako Swamp. The hon. gentleman prefaced his remarks by stating circumstances which had occurred after the recent divisions upon Sir George Grey's motions. Upon receiving the resolutions passed by theif supporters at their caucus meeting, {they replied that it would be impossible they could remain in office a day without having this Piako Swamp sale cleared up. They were, therefore, anxious to test the matter, so that, if the opinion of the House was against them, his Excellency should seek other advisers. After adverting to the irregular action of Sir G. Grey, he put it to the hon. members that, however strong party feeling might run, it was absolutely necessary there should be some concerted arrangement outside the House for the transaction of business within it. Where this Was not done, it was in the power of a single member to put the House to a great deal of inconvenience. The hon. member then read a number of letters, telegrams, and other documents, with reference to the Piako Swamp sale, and which had passed between the Native Minister, the Colonial Secretary, and Mr Russell, during the period of two months, while the sale was being negotiated. These documents, he thought, were a conclusive answer to the charges that the negotiations had been conducted in a private room. As far as he was personally concerned, he had nothing to do with the matter beyond giving his approval. From beginning to end the negotiations were en tirely in the hands of the Native Minister, though he did not complete it without submitting the matter to the Government. As to the insinuations that he favored Mr Russell, he thought he was entitled to ask the House to allow him to treat .those insinuations with contempt.—-(Hear, hear.) ! 'e appealed to the Native Minister to state if he ever committed himself to any decision without having been requested to do so.— (Hear, hear, from r ir D. M'Lean.) With regard to this purchase, he could say that if he had again to come to a decision under similar circumstances he would act as he did then. It was the greatest extravagance of idea to think the land could have been rendered available to settlers without an enormous expenditure. The construction of that road was one of the very best thiugs that could have happened to the district. To have put up that land to auction they were fully convinced would have rendered them the laughing stock of everybody. Even now there were about 40,000 acres that could not be drained without mechanical appliances. In fact, with a full knowledge of all the facts of the case, he still-maintained that the Government had the best of the bargain. Notwithstanding all that waß said to the contrary, he believed that if the works were offered to Government at cost price, there would not be found half-a-dozen members in the House who would sanction so hazardous an undertaking, because it was impossible to say what amount of money would have to be expended before the speculation could be said to be a success. With regard to their legal power, there was not the slightest doubt that the Governor possessed all the power he exercised in the matter, which was only the same as in a great many others dealt with in the same way. There might be a question raised as to the expediency of the sale, but none whatever as to its legality. To explain the reason why they issued their Order in Council befcre the meeting of Parliament, the honorable member read te'egrams from the Native Minister stating he had secured the Native interests in the land adjoining the Swamp, and that a map of the land had been prepared, an • also read a letter from Mr Whittaker on behalf of the purchasers calling upon the Government to carry out the agreement, by giving a Crown grant for the land, which grant could not have been granted before survey had been completed. The purchasers having spent a very large sum of money upon the land, to which they poasessed no title, they had a perfect right to demand that the Government should fulfil the obligation and Crown grant the land as soon as they were in a position to do so. The honorable gentleman then submitted a map of the Swamp to the House, ard pointed out how a good deal of the land it was originally intended to allow the purchaser to have was taken away by the Government for Maori purposes, so that instead of the pnachasers getting more land than was originally intended, and as was alleged, they, on the eontnary, got a great deal less. On one point he felt bound to say that the honorable member for Auckland City West committed gross affronts and insult upon the Ministry,. the House, and the public at large, by appealing to the Home Government and the British Parliament on & question of this kind. He would boldly say that the majority of the people of the Colony would strongly resent the interference of the Home Government in matters of purely local loncern. (Hear, hear.) The honorable member for Auckland West had gone the length of saying that the Government had made a corrupt sale, and by implication the last Parliament participated. Well, he thought he was not so angry as he should be with the member for Auckland West, because he felt that the honorable gentleman labored under a morbid hallucination on some ques tions, as, for instance, when he thought Auckland ran the risk of being cannonaded by Her Majesty's ships. He urged the House not to deal with the question as a party one. He did not think for a moment tl:at the member for Dunedin City—Mr Macandrew—or the member for Roslyn—Mr Burnß—who had known him for a long time, could possibly believe he would have lent himself to such corruption as was alleged. He held that the sale was a good one, that it was admitted now to be so, and that the Government had full power to make the sale. He therefore left the question to the impartiality of the House.—(Applause). Sir G. Grey rose amidst applause, and said this Parliament called on them to do what no Anglo-Saxon people, except the United States, had been called on to do, and it was with wonder and delight that he Baw how the House responded when he raised the cry of public wrong. He inwardly exclaimed—- " The hour aud the men have come, and th's Parliament is equal to the great questions before it." Touching the relations Detween the Governor and the Ministry, he said the country required a Governor who would place an arrogant Ministry in their proper plaoe, and give fairplay to the Parliament and people of the Colony. Referring to the Swamp purchase, ho said that, as Superintendent of the Province!, he applied at

Auckland for oertain information ttgaiding the sale, and, failing that, he had no ifther course to pursue than when he found himself in the midst of Parliament to raise aloud the ory of great public wrong. Re atood before them a? one accused of lunacy, and lie there* fore appealed to their sympathy.. First of all, he would ask them to dismiss from their minds all the letters and documents read by the Premier as trash and twaddle. They were worth nothing. This transaction did not stand alone. There were many other similar transactions, each one more grossly wrong than the other, and he instanced a case where 10,000 acres of coal land were sold privately, after being put uptopublio auction and not sold.

Major A tkinßon : It is untrue. Sir G. Grey declined to proceed unless an apology was made for the expression, and appealed to the Speaker.

The Speaker said that if Major Atkinson could not prove the statement to be untrue, his expression would recoil upon himself. Sir G. Grey then proceeded to refer to other transactions in land, which he considered a great wrong to the Maori as well as to the European race. He maintained that all the Premier stated to the House bore out his (Grey's) allegations. Another thing he wished to point out to the Hottße was, that there were two Ministers in that House and in the other who were members of the Civil Service, and who were therefore not as independent as Ministers dught to be, and that the Premier exercised an Undue influence over them. He believed the action of. the Government was illegal, that their Orders in Council were so much waste paper,, and that high legal authority told them bo, though the Premier never said anything about it. Be would give his belief, it was, of oourse, only belief, that the Piako Swamp would, when drained, become as valuable as Romney Marsh in Kngland. He deprecated the idea of keeping in a Ministry simply to seeure Abolition, no matter what their wrong doings. The inhabitants of New Zealand were able to secure Abolition them-, selves, and he warned the Ministry they Would have yet to remit that question to the I people. He would not attempt to prove hit case any further. The Premier had already done that for him. He, as a supplicant, would withdraw from the House when the | vote was taken upon this question, and he ! asked the Ministry to do the same. It was jiot right they should be judges in their own cause. _ '

Mr Stafford thought the House had a right to expert from the honorable gentleman some substantial proof in support of the accusation of corruption he sp generally and freely bestowed. But what had .they got but a wild speech upon everything on the face of the earth, except the Piako Swamp ? He must eay he could not but admire the unexampled audacity with which Sir George endeavored to cast opprobrium upon the Governor by saying he was not an independent gentleman, and that he was but a tool in the hands o? the Ministry. Why, when he (Mr Stafford) was Premier, and Sir George Grey Governor, the very things he so-condemned now were the regular practices. He spoke with indignation of the Governor signing a blankpaper, and yet when the member. for Auckland West was Governor blank documents—even Her Majesty's prerogative—were signed, not in ones or tens, hut in hundreds, at the time, and left entirely to the discretion of the Premier himself to use. It really appeared that since Sir Geoige Grey ceased to be Governor he did nothing but bark at all who followed him as Governor. Had there been any alteration in the Governors of modern days? The hon member evidently held some morbid idea. It was not possible any Governor now appointed could be worse than the previous one. Why, the whole principle of responsible government was that the Governor should seek the advice of his responsible advisers. Why, without any law at all, or any sanction whatever, the hon. member himself (Sir George Grey) sent to the people in Syney, telling them if they canfe here he would give them land to settle upon; and yet he talked of the actions of the present Ministry. Yet when he was Governor an Order in Council was issued to complete land arrangements. Even the coalfield sale he referred to as more corruption, he (Sir George) had offered that land for sale in vain. It was well known nothing could be done with it unless it was in the hands of one man. The Piako sale was one of expediency—he absolutely refused to believe there was any corruption. When he was in office and finances were not flourishing he would have been glad te sell that land if he could. What the land, was worth then and what it was now were tw» different things. He had seen the lower part of the sVamp when it could have been sailed over as easily as the Waikato River, and the centre of the swamp no man had ever yet seen. He thought at the time the sale was made that it was very good good one, in consequence of the large amount of capital and labor it caused to be brought into the district. He repudiated the idea that the issue of Orders in Council was improper; to do bo had always been a common and even necessary practice. At the conclusiou of his speech the hon. member said he was told by high legal authority that Orders in Council were worth no more than waste paper. That was a a common expression with the hon. member, but he carefully kept back the names of all these authorities, and, as members well knew, there were lawyers and lawyers. He deprecated the action of the member for Auckland West bringing in so limited a question like Piako Swamp before the House had an opportunity of dealing with questions of a far more important character. Mr Stout stated his reasons for how he voted on the Piako question. Those who intended to support the resolution moved by the Premier must remember that they would practically endorse the sale of such large | blocks of land as good, and endorse the - doing of it in secret without public competition. There was no stipulation that the land should be settled. If all the land that conld be at once sold by auction was to be sold to large capitalists then millions of acres in New Zealand would have to be sold immediately. Nothing had been Btated to show the sale was expedient. On the contrary, Government knew that the land would soon increase in value from the projected railway. Besides, there was no Native war on at the time. The honorable member then proceeded to discuss the legality of the sale, saying that the Government ought to have laid before the House the opinion of their legal adviser upon the matter; but he doubted whether a legal gentleman could be found who would risk his reputation by stating that the action of the Government in issuing Orders in Council was legal. This agreement was not only a violation of, but a fraud on an Act of Parliament. They said the land had been open for sale fur years, but it had never been onen upon the same terms as those upon which Mr Russell obtained it. Surely the Colony was not confined to one capitalist who represented a Loan and Mercantile Agency Company. He deprecated the bad example Bet by the Premier to new members, in not conducting a debate on administration without calling an honorable member a lunatic Referring to the ridicule the Premier threw upon the Superintendent of Auckland for imagining Auckland ran the risk of being bombarded, he called to the recollection of the Premier how be bombarded the Courthouse* in Otego, because

certain delegated powers were not given to the Superintendent. He cheered the remark of the Premier in deprecating the action of Sir George Grey in appealing to a power outside our local Parliament. He would remind the House they had a local Parliaments Otago, and people there claimed the right of administering their local affairs without intervention of any other power.— (Loud applause from the Opposition.) As far as thedefeatof the Ministry wasconcerned, he did not wish to see them leave the Government Benches, not, at least, till he saw the Financial Statement. He objected to the form of the motion; he moved, as an amendment, " That while the House regrets that the exigencies of the Colony, or Ministry, should ever require the sale of a large block of land such as the Piako Swamp, to one individual, and without competition, it is ?et of opinion that the Crown grant for such 'iako Swamp should be issued, in order that the legality of the grant may, if any person feels himself agrieved thereby, be tested before the proper judicial tribunal." Mr Stout put it to the Government whether they would accept this amendment ? The Government declined to do so, and, On the motion of Mr Reader Wood, the House adjourned at 12.30 p.m.

On meeting p.m. yesterday, Sir J. Vogel gave notice that he would move that the names of Messrs Cox and Kelly be omitted from the Finance Committee, and those of Messrs Montgomery and Read placed there instead. SirG. Grey gave notice he would move that the names of Messrs Stout and Reea be plaeed on the Committee. In reply to a question by Mr Rees, Sir J. Vogel said the Hon. Dr Pollen was enrolled upon the Civil Service, and would be in course of time entitled to whatever retiring allowance would be calculated was due to him. Sir D. M'Lean, however, did not belong to the Civil Service at all. Sir D. M'Lean. m&de a personal explanation in regard to the allegation that he held the office of Land Purchase Commissioner, and drew public moneys for other offices besides his Ministerial allowance. wondered how Sir G. Grey's memory shoiliJ fail him, as it'was he himself who abolished tnC office of Lands Purchasing Commissioner in 1865 by proclamation in the ' Gazette.' He could say further, that when made Minister be resigned all offices and emoluments. From 1863 to the present hour he had never received a single sxpence save his pay as Superintendent of Hawkes Bay. In reply to Mr Williams, The Native Minister stated, regarding the graves of officers and men slain in the war With the Natives, that all that was necessary was in some cases done, and in others was being done. In reply to Mr Stevens, Sir J. Vogel said, re the Hall-Forbes contract, that the loss entailed upon the Colony was L 18,765. No money had yet been recovered, bnt he might say that there was reason to expect some portion would be recovered, a compromise having been proposed. He hoped to be able to lay more information on the matter before the House before the session closed.

Sir J. Vogel moved the second reading of the Disqualification Act Amendment Bill, the object of •which was to legalise certain elections, and which could inflict no injury upon anyone. Mr Maeandrew seconded the motion, and said that the Disqualification Act was never intended to apply to such cases as those provided for in the Bill.

Mr Murray recorded his protest against the Bill. The Government ouvht to deal with the question as a whole, and not nibble at it piecemeal. Mr Rees considered the 2nd section wanted amendment. .In its present shape, it allowed persons paid by fees and commission too much latitude.

Mr Whitaker pointed out many questions which could be raised under certain interpretations of the Disqualification Act. ■The Bill was read a second time, committed, and passed. The adjourned debate on the Piako Swamp was resumed.

Mr Reader Wood reminded the House that already two legal gentlemen had addressed the Housv, and held that the Government's action was illegal, and though the Premier said the Government had a legal opinion, he had not produced it, though defied to do so. The honorable member proceeded to comment upon Mr Stafford's action in supporting the Government whether right or wrong. He reminded him of Lord Palmerßton, who did not care for people who supported him when he was right--be wanted people to support him when he was wrong. The honorable member for Timaru found fault that Sir G. Grey had not adduced proof of his charges, but he appealed to the House to say if the Premier had not admitted every charge made by Sir George Grey. The honorable member then proceeded to severely criticise the member for Timaru in his remarks on the previous night referring to Sir George's acte as Governor with reference to Bigning blank pardons? The honorable member vaguely referred to some case wherein a Premier insisted upon having the last sentence of law carried out upon some person, but that the Governor would not consent. The honorable member then, pointing to the member for Timaru, said he ought to thank God he had a kind heart and a clear head standing between him and judicial murder. Mr Stafford interrupted, giving an unqualified contradiction that there was ever any instance such as that indicated.

Mr Rees then proceeded to comment on the conduct of the Government's Native land purchase agents, and quoted at length from BrissenoWs evidence before the Tairua Committee to show how certain persons were unduly favored. All this went to show that these land transactions should be put on a proper basis. There should not be one aet of land regulations for the Government and another for the public. He had not ascribed corruption to the Government in the sense that any of them received a cheque or other beneficial interest from the transaction. But there waa corruption in giving to friends and favorites of the Government without due publicity what would have been refused to him if he applied for it. The honorable member, after commenting with some aeverity upon the Premier, and his bank correspondence, called attention to the fact that the Crown grant was not to be made out for Mr Russell, but for the Loan Company, and said that at their recent meeting in London an actuary recommended they should not pay such high dividends, as the Colony might overrun the constable. Referring to the Premier's remark about Sir George Grey as to the bombardment of Auckland, the hon. member said if the letter to the Secretary for the Colonies was that of a lunatio, then the argument of the Premier, when he said they would become a laughing stock if they offered eighty thousand acres at auction, was the argument of an idiot.

The Speaker pointed out that the expression was not put in a Parliamentary way.

Mr Itees was understood to express regret if it was not.

Mr Ormond regretted that the only substantiation of grave charges made against the Government should be speeches like that of the hon. member—amusing and discursive—but not what the House ought to •JP 6 ®** When the hon. member who led the Opposition rose to substantiate his grave charges, be utterly failed to bring forward

one tittle of evidence to prove his case. Touching the recent surprise he was glad to see that new members took the first opportunity of giving a free and enlighted expression of opinion. It was an earnest of what might be expected in future, that they would be equal to the duties devolving upon them. He regretted the issue of the late surprise, which no doubt could have been avoided, though it was easy to be wise after the event. The outcome of that vote was to place the question in the hands of the House to be sifted to the bottom, either to be proved or disproved: that was the position. ("No, no," and "Yes, yes.") The speeoh of the hon. member for Dunedin on the previous night seemed to him as if he asßUDied the mantle of one who ÜBed last sassion to draw the member for Auckland West out of quagmires in which his rashness had placed him, but who no longer took part in the debatee of the House. The member for Dunedin had, however, failed most B'gnally. Referring to Sir G. Grey's letter respecting the cannonading of Auckland, he did not know how it was received in other parts of the Colony, but where he came from it was looked on as a skit, and laughed at. The hon. member said he was one of the Committee which inquired into the Pioko Swamp. That was a Political Coirmit tee, and he regretted there were too many political committees last session because the effect was bad. He had no doubt that the Piako Committee inquired into that matter irrespective of party bias, and they found not a particle of evidence to support a charge of corruption. When the member for Auck land City West reopened these charges this session, he (Mr Ormond) naturally expected he would have evidence to adduce that was not obtainable before ; but he did not do so. i The hon. member for Auckland City West I always harped upon promotion of settlement, but what had he ever done to promote settlement? Since he was Superintendent his (Sir G. Grey's) Government took very good care that their friends should have all the good land.—(Laughter.) Touching"the sale he was of op : nion that the regulations were not strictly complied with, and that it would have been better for the Government to forego what might be a very good bargain gather than carry out what was done irreHe, however, felt that the result of that J e bate would place the Opposition in a much Wor se position than they occupied before, because It wOU J d be shown that these charges were etwW and the House would not bo thankful to the leader of the Opposition for them in this way. On resuming at 7.30 p.m., Mr De Latour continued the debate on the swamp purchase, strongly opposing it on various grounds. Mr Bryce defended the sale as a singularly expedient one, which would probably not have been made yet if not made in the manner it was. He quoted from Mr Murray s evidence before the Select Committee to-' {>rove that a fair price was received for the and by the Government. He contended that the large expenditure on reclamation did great good to the district when looked at in connection with Native affairs.

Mr Murray considered the sale was not necessary nor advantageous, and said that the roads made through the swamp were next to useless for traffic. The Government ought to havo made a railway through it. Mr Stevens would vote for the motion. The sale might have been an administrative error, but the House was bound to ratify it. Mr Rees strongly opposed the motion, which, if carried, would be the condoning of a flagrant piece of wrong doing. Not a Premier in any of the many possessions of the British Empire would dare to bring down such a resolution. He advised the House not to ratify the contract, and if the Government pressed it, to walk out without voting. Mr Rowe, though opposed very strongly to alienating large blocks of public estate, would vote for completing this sale. He knew all about the case, and sailed over the swamp years before a majority of members in that House ever heard of it.

Mr Nake objected to the sale, because the Maori King was not consulted. Mr Maofarlane explained that the sale of the coal field, which Sir George Grey said was made to Mr Russell, had been entirely effected by himself on behalf of the Waikato Coal Company while Mr Russell was absent at Home.

Mr Wakefield said that though somewhat uneasy at the commencement of the debate that the transaction was '' dark," he was now satisfied there was nothing improper. At worst it could only be ealled an administrative error. He would support the resolution because it waß the only way out of the difficulty in which the House had placed itself. Its very boldness was a merit in allowing members to vote for it who would not do so otherwise. He strongly opposed the alienation of large blocks of land. Mr Montgomery said the Premier had not made it clear to them that there bad been no additional land given to the purchasers of the swamp, The Government should not have sold the land without surveying it. He did not believe there was any corruption in the matter.

Mr Whitaker gave all the details of the transaction from its inception to the completion, showing that the sale was not only legal and regular in every way, but was absolutely a good bargain for the Government, and productive of very great benefit to the Province by finding employment for hundreds of immigrants. Instead of getting more land the Native Minister actually kept back 8,500 acres of the best for the Natives. In 1871 land could have been bought for Is 6d or 2s an acre. Over L 35.000 had been already expended upon it, but an immense amount would yet be required. He denied Sir George Grey's allegation that he was concerned in other land transactions, or had over taken any favor from the Government Several others having spoken for and against, a discussion ensued as to whether the House should adjourn or go on. The finally adjourned at 2.5 a.m. till 2 30 p.m. on Tuesday.

ABOUT THE LOBBIES. (From our own Correspondent.) a -d v x Wellington, June 23. A Parliamentary paper, circulated yesterday, shows that Parliament will be asked for a vote of L 4,250 by way of special allowance to Sir Julius Vogel to cover the cost of ms mission to England. The explanation given by Sir Juhuß, with respect to his departure for England, is as follows “ It was urged that the House should have been infonned during the session of 1874 that I was ’ n ac t it was not then decided that I should go. Undoubtedly during the session the House came to the conclusion that it would be necessary that a member should go to England to ant right the anairs of the Home Agency. A s.iifgeation had been made that I should go, bid it was in no way decided. To have announced the possibility or probability to the ouse would have led to an inexpedient discussion concerning the conduct of the Homo Agent, * The necessity for Ministers dealing with the loan negotiation was not at that time discussed, excepting that it was thought it would be necessary for one to proceed to Sydney to arrange alxmt the treasury Bill and other matters. I believe that that conclusion was recognised by Ministers, as also that it pointed to the contingency of my proceeding on to England,

and hence the reference in the letter to Mr Russell to the possibility of my so doing; but there was nothing like a decision on the subject come to." Mr Mandera will on Tuesday night ask the Minister of Justice if the Government arc prepared this session to introduce a Bill giving to the District Courts Act an extended jurisdiction, so as to include sentences beinr inflicted for a period equal to ten years' penal servitude for criminals; also to give power to try all cases civilly up to the amount of LSOO, such cases being those that the Courts now deal with up to the extent of L2OO, and adding thereto oases for libel, slander, breach of promise of marriage, and seduction; but not including cases of law titles, treason, &c, as set forth in the existing Act. If not, if they will leave the matter so that it may be considered next session of this Parliament.

Mr Burns has given notice of his intention to move—"That the Government be requested to call for tenders for the manufacture within the Colony of such locomotives, carriages, vans, trucks, and other railway rolling stook; alsoforturning out shifting tables as may be further required for use on the several ranways in the Colony."

The new Licensing Bill, adding several new clauses to the old Act prepared at the instance of Mr Tomkins (president of the Canterbury Licensed Victuallers' Association) has been entrusted to Mr Bowen to bring before the House at an early date. Mr Stout has also a Bill to present from the Dunedin Licensed Victuallers' Association.

The following Bills have been introduced, and read a first time : - Canterbury Educacational Reserves Leasing Act, and alßill to validate a certain proclamation of the Superintendent of Otago.