Untitled

Evening Star, Issue 4076, 20 March 1876, Page 2 (Supplement)

his feeling in favour of Provincialism that his support was likely to be lost to me. I knew well that the support which he and others had long, given to me would be risked when I came down with those resolutions, but I saw—and I take no credit to myself for seeing it, because; in the position which I - occupied I was bound to see it —I saw that the position of the Colony required the change. I became at last an advocate for the Abolition of the Provinces, as my friend Mr. Bryce may say he always had been. I had thought that they should be continued so long as they could be, but I saw the time had come when the country could not support them, or, speaking in plain terns, the system was one which it was beyond the strength of the Colony to continue. It was the finance question, as I have before said, and probably shall often say again, which made the change necessary. Still, I hoped the change needed only be partial. I thought we could.say to the Provinces of the North Island; —If we will put you into a position in which your public services can be properly continued, and your public works carried out by yourselves

without entailing on the Colony a cost which it cannot hear of; and that we should be able to say to the other Provinces, if continued: —If you like, raise your own revenues, expend them, and when you can no longer rely on yourselves, we will adopt towards you the same course we have opened to the North Island. But we found the country was not willing that there should be exceptional treatment, that it should be * f all or none.” That was the term used, and we found that the financial question' was raising the conclusion more rapidly . than we supposed, and that the large Provinces required to be dealt with just as much as the smaller ones; in fact, fired with emulation on seeing the immense amount of Provincial work which the Colony had been doing, they were endeavouring to the utmost extent to carry on the same thing, and there were nine Provinces, you may say, striving to spend as much borrowed money as they could get hold of. This was a state of things which could not be continued. "When we brought down our Public Works and Immigration policy the Colony had been abandoned by the Imperial Government, they had taken away their troops, and left us to ourselves.with a burthen of about J66,000,000 of debt. We werehere comparatively a handful of people, vigorous and strong, although

fortlie time in a depressed condition. For some time past public worts and colonisation had beenalmost abandoned; in fact inthe North Island, they bad never been carried ont, except to a*small extent along the coastline, therefore, we said we must see if we cannot bring to the country a larger nnmber of persons to share its burthens, and show the people that they have someting to work I admit it was a bold policy, and a policy that was not applicable to many countries in the world. I think that there .are very few countries so favoured as New Zealand ; very, lew 'which could adopt such a policy ; but I say it was a policy of necessity here, unless we wished to see the Colony fall into such a depressed and languishing condition as we see exists in a neighbouring colony. I do not like to make insidious remarks, but I allude to the co’ony of Tasmania. "We were safe in our convictions, because we felt that money expended in opening up two such islands could not be thrown away, but must in the end have good results. (Applause.)

That such is the case is proved by the result of this policy, even so far as' it as it has yet gone, because we have had not only added in this country the people who we have brought • out by means of free emigration, but wo have had those who attracted by what they have laarnt of New Zealand, have come at their own cost, to cast in their lot here and invest their money in the Colony. We have expended money in bringing people here to work, but many hare also come bringing with them capi- . tal to employ that labour, and it is a fact rebounding to the honour of the people of the country that there have not been any class complaints at the increase of population such as are made in neighbouring Colonies, where was opposed* by all classes, and by the working men especially. We have seen that instead of injuring them by increasing •the population, we have added to their prosperity by enlarging the sphere and scope of the wants of the people. I, of course, recognise that the thing may he overdone, but whilst it ,is not overdone, while we are

able to see that labor and capital are being concurrently brought into the Colony, and if we can arrange that men who earn money by labour arc able when they cease to desire such employment, to settle upon the lands of the Colony, we are safe • in pursuing the policy I have described.(Applause.) Ido not think that many persons realise fully the force of what I have said with respect to expenditure by Provinces and by the Colony. As to the Colonial expenditure, when we brought down our proposals to construct trunk lines of railway from end ( to end of each of the two Islands, we suggested that the work could be .done by an expenditure of about £8,000,000 spread over ten years; but it became so obvious as we proceeded that those works were certain to prove successful, that the greatest possible pressure was brought to bear—the pressure of the Legislature itself—to cause the hastening of the works. It was said .with great force, "if these works are going , to pay, as appears certain to be the case, it is better to finish them as soon as possible, and not to have to find interest upon «them unfinished, while they would pay much of the interest upon their cost if only they were flashed.” From 1871 to the present time we have in fact done as much work in railway construction as, under the original proposal, would have occupied at least half as much more time. Hence we have borrowed more largely and

rapidljfcthan was anticipated. New Zealand has much reason to be gratified at the fact that no other Colony in a similar position ever met with with such success in the money market of the world. That operation of borrowing £4,000,000 which I { was instrumental in carrying out, and which has been made the subject of many spiteful remarks, was an operation which, tested by the opinions of those who, from their position and knowledge, were capable of judging, was a really astonishing success. If you will consider the position of New Zealand and the amount it had borrowed, you will recognise that it was a very great operation to borrow in the English market within about forty-eight hours so large a sum of money. (Applause.) But that operation was made the occasion of many «cruel aspersions in England by persons who should have allowed their knowledge of and interest in the Colony to have raised them

above mere personal jealousies. These aspersions cast upon New Zealand’s position and her borrowing, made as they were by men who were supposed to be able to judge impartially in the matter, have done a great deal to injure the Colony. It is wise therefore to face the fact, and to he cautious not to show any disposition to exceed or abuse the credit we •possess. We have a very great work before ns. We have been hurried on at a rate we did not originally intend, and we have done a great deal more than we calculated upon doing np to this time; but a great deal remains to be done, and it would have been simply impossible for as to have gone on at the same rate, and to have allowed the Provinces to continue expenditure* at the rate they were expending. Yery few people have

a conception of how the Provinces, by the aid of the Colony, have been exceeding the amounts they were justified in spending. The Provinces have been year by year exceeding what they have been able to‘find, and j ear by year, by extraordinary grants, or provisions, or capitation allowances, the Colony has had to supply the deficiency. ‘ln three or four months we shall have to take over the Provinces. As Colonial Treasurer, I' shall be very happy if there are not then any Provincial overdrafts at the banks—(laughter)—if there are no oustanding liabilities, no herfvy' engagements to be fulfilled. Indeed, taking all tbe liabilities and engagements of the

Provinces to outside people and to the Colony for extraordinary assistance during the last two or three years, I shall be happy if the amount does not exceed half a million, (Hear, hear.). I know that in the case of one large Province there was a credit balance of £200,000 at the commencement of 1876, and the authorities of which anticipate being able by the end of September next not only to spend that amount, but to “overrun the constable” to the amount of £150,000 in addition. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) In the face of such evidence of the ambition of some Provinces to spend money, is it not peculiarly our-duty to put the financial position of the Colony upon a more satisfactory footing if we can possibly do so?— (Hear, hear.) Well, then, the Provinces are

to be taken over very soon, and it has become necessary to determine how the government of the country shall be carried on, to apportion the control among local bodies and the General Government, to decide the duties of each class of local bodies, to let each know what amount of revenue it will have to command, and to take care that the expenditure shall be kept within proper limits. We must resolve to provide a consolidated revenue sufficient to meet all demands upon it, and 1 we must determihe that these demands shall not be in excess of what our consolidated revenue can fully satisfy. If we agree to expend borrowed money, it must be only upon lonajide reproductive works—there must be no doubt whether any particular sum. we are expending represents borrowed money or not. This must be the case with the local bodies as well as with the General Government. There must not be borrowing except for reproductive purposes ; there must be a broad c ear distinction between the application of borrowed money and money from ordinary revenues. What could be worse than to have

nine Provinces pulling in one direction and the General Government—l will not say in another direction—but trying its best to stand against such straining.—(Laughter.) You will conclude, from what I Have said, that I look upon our finance as demanding very serious consideration. It is not that there is any reason for feeling depression or doubt as to the position of the Colony; the difficulty is to be careful that we are not unduly elated by success, and so led into expending more than we are warranted in doing. We can obtain from the people by way of revenue, and from lenders by borrowing, all the money it can be desirable we should expend. What we must resolutely enforce upon ourselves is a determination to avoid anything like excess in either direction.—(Applause.) There are still to be found in the Colony a few people who profess a belief that there is no reason for abolishing the Provinces, and with the desire of getting in some shape a double, treble, or quadruple form of Government, they suggest various plans. Some propo.-e the separation of the two islands, and the constitution of a single Province in each. They see and admit that the Provinces, as they are, cannot he preserved, and their desire is to have, if possible, something like them. I tell you the Government will give an unqualified opposition to any and every proposal of the kind. (Loud cheers.) Now a great deal has been said about THE COMPACT OP 1836. ,

I go outside the Compact altogether, and say I believe it is a convenient and desirable thing for every great division of the country to have an interest in the land revenue, and the principle of the Compact of 1856 is one not undesirable if we were perfectly free to recognize it. That principle I understand to be, is to set apart the land revenue both in respect to where it arises and to the object to which it is to be devoted. But what surprises me is that'those who speak about it think it should only be made, only bo maintained, so long as they consider it desirable. They talk of putting all the land fund of the Middle Island in-

to one common purse, but nothing could less represent their views of the Compact. But the Government will consent to nothing which does not give the residue of the land fund for expenditure by'the local bodies, and no proposal will be accepted which would make the land fund lose its special character. I believe it is the general feeling of the Colony that the land revenue should be specially applied. A great deal has been said lately about this Com-, pact, but I do not myself expect that so much will be said abput the subject when Parliament meets as had been predicted. My experience teaches me, and I ihink my friend Mr Bryce will bear me out, that there are always during the recess innumerable prophets foretelling what will take place when the Assembly meets and the subjects which will be chiefly dealt with, and that those are the very subjects which are generally most neglected during the session. ABB AN CEMENTS FOE THE FtTTPBE.

_ I have as yet only spoken about the Abolition of the Provinces, and I will now say something about the future. I recognise that it has become the duty of the Government, which has been the means of asking the Colony to consent to the Abolition of the Province?, to supply something satisfactory in their place, to supply a form of local Government of a more inexpensive character.—(Hear, hear.) We accept that responsibility, and I undertake to say that we shall propose to Parliament a form of local Government, which will be more satisfactory, although it will not have those features.of miniature Parliaments, and miniature responsible Governments, which characterise the present Provincial system. I

am happy also to say that as we approach the subject more closely, the difficulties which surround it gradually disappear. I have stated even a few weeks ago, that the Abolition of the Provinces was not an unmixed good; but that it wouldbe attended with many difficulties, extra work to Parliament, and embarrassments lo Parliament, which we could not avoid; bur ns we approach the work more closely, all the difficulties clear away, and my opinion in 'that respect has very much altered. I believe that we will establish a system which will not entail •the disadvantages I have feared. You pften observe as you approach a large city, that when it comes first in view, yoa see only a large number of buildings confusedly before you. You '•annot trace the strep’s,even discern the direction in which the river runs, if there be one; but as you get gradually nearer and nearer, the place developcs itself and -becomes quite plain. It has been very much the same with me with respect to this local Government question. Whilst I wSs. convinced that we must find a substitute for Provincial Governments, when we disposed of the Provinces, it seemed to me that it would be*very difficult to find.that substitute; but the more wo apolied ourselves to the work, the clearer it has become, and I now express the opinion that we shall give a very satisfactory form of local governing bodies, and not entail upon Parliament many of the evils Lfeared—-in fact, we shall so preserve the local character of these bodies, that instead of increasing the work of Parliament, we shall rather diminish it; Ton

will not expect me to-night to go into the details of the plan; but rather to explain its j broader principles. And first to speak of principles, we want to draw a broad distinction between’the great public ser. ices in the Provinces, which can be carried oat just as well by the General Government as bf the ProvincialGovernments,without in the slightest degree causing inconvenience to anyone. For insfance, the management of gaols and of the police, and such duties as the Provincial Governments perform. With respect to Harbours, 1 mean administrative duties, not those connected with Harbour improvements, these and other things which go to make up the great part of the cost of Provincial Government services may as well be attended to by the General Government, and can be so attended to, not only without inconvenience ‘to the inhabitants merely, but without the great mass of the people knowing that any changes have been made. They are services which are not more of a local character than are those connected with the Post Office or the Telegraph Department. We have from one end of the Colony to the other postmasters who have been appointed by, and are under the control of, the General Government, and whose salaries are voted by the Assembly; and we are able to carry on the pestal service in a manner which is, I believe,-decidedly satisfactory to the Colony. The Bcrvices I have mentioned or indicated can be performed by incorporating, the Pro-

vincial with the General Government depart* merits, and a great deal of money may in that way be saved. There is no necessity for having a department. Witli a departmental head in every service in every Province, we are able to carry on the General Government services without many of them. I am not complaining of what has been done. While the Provinces exist each must have its distinctive staff, but by incorporation we believe that wo can get rid of most of those distinctive features, and that we can save much money. Another principle the Government can indorse in afranginfi for the future is that the institutions which are to lake the place ot the Provinoes must be free from the difficulties which have sapped the foundations of Provincial inBtitulione. There must not be so much frction or conflict with the new institutions as there has been between the Provincial Government and the General Government. In shoH, instead of having ill-defined claims upon the Ggneral Government, as the Provinces have had, and the consequent state of conflict be-

tween them, the new institutions must have functions clearly defined, so that they can be constantly worked without conflict and without friction. Last session, when we brought down our proposals for bolishing the Provinces, we had no guarantee that the Assembly would agree to them, and therefore we had not even an excuse for anticipating taking possession and preparing, for it, as we are how to a great extent justified in doing by the simple fact that the law says, “ On the day after the close ot the next session of Parliament the Provinces shall come to an end”—(Applause). Last session all we could do was to. submit a conjectural statement of the amount we supposed to be necessury for carrying on the Provincial services obtained from a study of Provincial estimates and appropriations. We had no excuse for going further, for all we knew, as a Government, was that we meant to submit to Parliament a proposal for abolishing the Provmces Now that the Parliament has said that the Superintendents shall discharge certain functions until the close of the next seasion. and that then the General Government

snail step in, we hare determined, therefore, not to remain idle until the day for taking possession arrives—not to postpone action until the new Parliament meets—because the Government is alwavs much occupied during a session, but to prepare for that work which the law tells us we must undertake on the day after the next session of the Assembly has been brought to a close. The first step was to place ourselves m a position to tell Parliament what would be the cost of carry lug on the ordinary services, not calculated upon surmises drawn from the last Provincial estima'e*, but upon our own estimate of the staff, with which we could carry them on. In fact, we felt that we must bring down next session estimates which would show the strength of the staff we should need to carry on the work of the Provinces which we had undertaken ; and, as a necessary step in that direction, we had to determine howwe could carry out those services. What we did was this : We went through all the Provincial services, and discussed how far we could incorporate them into the General Government services, and how far we should take them over temporarily until relinquished to local management We went through the services in that way, and I will tell you the results we arrived at. These Steps are preparatory to, our inviting from the Superintendents of the

different Provinces that cordial co-operation which it is to be presumed they will give in • assisting us to decide what officers'we should continue in the service, and those with whom we should dispense. I will describe, the principal decisions we have, arrived at; and, although T am going rather into details, those details will more clearly explain the views of the Government than if I spoke more generally. In the first instance, it became plain that there would be a number of Executive , departments in the various Provinces which, after a time, could be 'completely done away with, but whose unfinished work must be disposed of- departments having charge of papers, records, and so forth. At any rate, somethin? would have to be done with respect to the unfinished clerical work, and we determined that that part of the Provincial Government should be handed over to the Colonial Secretary’s Department, and an estimate be made of the expenditure required—a very

small one, I hope. Next came that very strong and important service—the Police. Our first idea was to hand that service over to the Defence Department, because it must be obvious that it wns most natural to incorporate the police with the armed constabulary ; but a consideration of the matter, showed that to band over the ordinary police of the different Provinces to.the Defence Department enuse great dissatisfaction, and not without ■justice. Some of these police forces arc of very old standing—much older than the armed constabulary. I can myself speak of one force—that of Otago—which is most efficient, and deserves every consideration 5 and wo feel that if wo handed the police over at once to the Diefence Department, they might entertain the feeling that they would not receive fair treatment at thehandsof the department, inasmuch ps it would not unnaturally favour its own force, the armed constabulary, whilst a true reconsideration of their services would not be

given to the others. It seemed, therefore, to us better to hand over the police to another Minister, and let it be a subject for consid ‘ration between the two Ministers, from time to time, how reduction should be made and incorporathn effec - ed. We propose that the police forces of the Provinces, instead of becoming part of the Defence department, should be placed under the Minister of Justice. It is also proposed to hand over the gaols and district gaols to the Minister of Justice.* The Crown Lands, Survey, Goldfields, and Sheep Inspectors, in the first instance, will be placed under tho Secretary for Crown Lands. It must not be supposed, however, that we consider it right to interfere with the local administration of the land, or to propose suddenly any great changes. We do not desire to make rapid or ill-considered changes, but it is necessaiy that every department should have a recognised head when the Provincial heads are abolished. With respect to the Goldfields

question, I am not prepared to go into it thoroughly to night. I will only say that we do not recognise that miners constitute a distinct class, and that mining districts are entitled to the distinctive treatment which many Goldfields members advocate; but we do recognise that mining districts are as much'entitled to local control m determining what is necessary for their local ieterests as agricultural or rural districts are. I hope that we shall be able to devise a system which will give the mining districts much larger local control than they have yet had, and I believe that by such a sytem we shall do more to obyiate dissatisfaction than can be done by any system based upon the theory that the miners are different beings from the rest of the community.- * The Government are sensible that whilst they desiro not unduly to interfere with local administration of the land, that something must be donojto increase the facilities for obtaining land for settlement.— (Cheers.) There are a great many young inen throughout the C >lony who must be enabled to possess themselfos of land upon which to settle, if they so desire, and the Government have the belief that less is to be done in that way by an artificial system of special settlements than by offering facilities to all who desire to obtain laud and to settle upon it. (Applause.) Upon one point the Government have a very strong opinion, and that is that those whn want land shou d pay for it, but that it should be offered on easy terms* of payment. Just ns a large purchaser, going into the private market, would be able to obtain easy terms for bis

payments, (Applause.) lam not, however, prepared to state what, if any, steps we shall take in this direction at present. I have indicated the direction in which the Government are inclined to go. I wish to make a clear distinction between those matters upon which the Government aie prepared to take immediate action, and those as to which I can only give you indications of the opinion of the Government, without saying what steps will at once be taken to give effect to that opinion. (Sear, hear.) Railways and public works iq the Provinces, including some branch railways and many works of different kinds, must obviously devolve upon the department of the Minister* of Public Works, but the Govern* ment will bear in mind that not a few of those will only be temporarily in charge of the Colonial department, because they are of a character which makes them fairly belong to the proposed local bodies—therefore it is intended not to make any sudden or great change in the management of these works, not to temporarily transfer the charge to Welling, tom, but as far as possible to‘continue under local management all works which will have to be handed over to any of the proposed local bodies. We desire to foresee arid, in every way that is in our power, to avoid inconvenience to any section of the people, though, of course, a great change like that resolved upon* last session, cannot be made in a day without some wrench to existing arrangements. We intend to continue (pr some time local arrangerrenta for making payments on account for

such works as I have indicated. We recognise that the contractors for such works would feel aggrieved if, because of a political change, they should be compelled to tend vouchers to Wellington, and be kept longer out of their money than they were entitled to calculate upon when they entered into the contract. Treasury arrangements will be maintained to the extent necessary to prevent public inconvenience—(Applause). Naturally the Harbor Departments will be placed under the Customs, and here I may explain that t am not now speaking of harbor improvements, but those duties which the Colony must carefully keep in its own hands, not those duties which I have already told you the Government are of opinion should be carried* on by local bodies and by means of local trusts. Similar remarks may be made as to the ultimate local control to be exercised over education departments. They will find their head in some department of the General Government, and it is proposed that they should .be handed over to the Minister of Justice. Hospitals, asylums, and charitable institutions will be placed under 1 he Colonial Secretary. We pro-

pose that these institutions shall be locally managed, and it will be our duty to make provision in that direction, so that the Government of the Colony may be relieved .of the charge* They will be under local management, with such assistance from the General Government as the Parliament shall decide should bo given to fhem. In the case of education, about which I shall have a few words to say presently, I may now add that it is a matter in regard to which, although locally managed, it will be tbe duty of the Government to see that the public money is properly expended, .and they will, therefore, propose to place it under proper inspection and control. The same is the case with charitable institutions,.which we must see are properly managed. I do not think I need detain, you Ibnaer with details as to the management of affairs when the Pro-

. vinces are abolished, j may add, however, that, having come to these conclusions, we are about to send three of the ablest civil servants to all the Provinces, with a view of enabling them to prepare estimates, so that we raay.hs I have said, form a conception of what amount of expenditure we may save in taking. over these departments. These gentlemen will carry letters of introduction to the various Superintendents, who will be asked to assist them. It is quite true that we might refer them to the Provincial Auditors, who are officers of the Government, but we think it better to refer t!iem4o the Superintendents, and ask those gentlemen to give them all the assistance in their power, and place them in the position of affording the General Government such information as will enable them to place before Parliament estimates of the cost of carrying on of Provincial services. 1 trust that the Superintendents will aid us in making these, e-ti mates. We recognise to the fullest extin' that the functions of the Superintendents continue, and will continue to the end of next session j and no doubt they will recognise that we shall have a groat and important, duty to carry out when (heir’s shall- cease, and will, therefore, consider it their duty to assist us in preparing to take over their functions.

CIVIL SERVICE. The-e is one point which I approach with d e d, because I know how pop lar is thnotion that the members <>f the Civil Ser < ioe are too wel treat d, and that Govemmen s are a ways too kind to thqjn. Bu‘. the matter now i volved tannot be 1 ghtly . rhis i ydealt with. Vyo b-iieve thtt, byte incorpr .ration of Provincial with General Gover ment aervi e-t, a large am u .t of money m .y be s ved throu hj • lisp.using with a very.o sd i-able n mber >f Provincial office s ; but we know th.t if there is not at the command of the Gov. rnme t me n-of libei’illy comp nsiding officers whose 1 appointmei ts are tiken awav, whatev v b'the th o i, the red .ct ons made will m t be a yth ng ike tho e wh ch would otherwise bo m de without such a m ans of c mpen ation. T is i* what will happen in the d.r-e of every officer who. is pat o it of r.he s rvc>; and I say it from personal expe ience—every friend and acquaintance, every i erson who has an interest in his pecuniary affa rs, all hi* friend , every one who knows him, in fact, who can by any p .ssib ity get at the M nis er, wil get at him w th representations that a g eat and spe ial har iship is -tone by dis ension with t e office ’s serv ces, and the e will be req >es s, in all f nns and from all si <es, that another ap oint ent may be found for hj m.—■ (Laughter.) It has .-too o ten b>*en the case, w on retrenchme t has be n atiempted th t Minister have been driven, merely for the ft-ku of getting some little quetn as. to fiud o'her appointments for officers who had been dispensed wi h.— (Laughter.) To go Into all parts «*f the Colony, and to dispense with tho

services of officers, merely saying to each—- '* Here is so nr ay months’ salary for you we hj tve don * with y u”—will mean so great an amount of tr ub e and pain for Mini-diets and all concerned, t at I -to not believ • they would be willing to unde go it.—(Hear hear.) Candid y, I would n<l. _ I do not be ieve that those who are o din >ri y he loudest in pr<>t sta ions for econuny and Joe Huoaeistn, would bo willing to get rid of a large number of officers, unless th-*y had the means of f .iry como’Uisati'ig the n v It is customary, when ah lahment of office’s on a scale is under ak n,.to five to the Gr ivernme t nr-an* for su hj compensoion This -s not from any 'd sire to be extravagant, but because human nature is much the same all the world over;

and nobody is wi ling, no matter bow live'y the sense of duty he xn»y p-ofeas or fe *l, to be the mean? o f influencing distess on a number of men and thcr f mi ies, who are in no >eape;t other than deserving, but who are to ba sacriiced to publicexigeucy.—(Aoplau e.) • he provision the Act of last session for co •itiensat'ng officer* whosa services it may be considered de-i able to cis .'ense with, is not sufficie t. Without a more liberal provis on it is posable the* reduction will not*be half effec ed; and surly it is b tter. when so much will be saved yearly to enable the Gove nment* to dp fearless y, because they can do f irly,' what they th nk ne es-ary, than to pret nd not to be aware that the inev»t ble result of nn inadequate scale of i>>n will b- to con* tinue expenditure at a rtf which is rt-al'y not necessary.—( \p lause.) The Gov,rnme t will make proposal* to the House for more Iberal compensation than is possible under the Act of Its; session, but whither we shall propose that that compensa ion shd be in land for set le mmt or m money I am not prepar. d to say, but we are cnnv need that such a pi n w»ll s *ve a g eat deal of money in t l e ed, and tat without it retrenchment which might be mute will nt be made—(Applause) And now, in thi conat cti n, ns our f lends the Amerc ns say, I ought, perhaps, to r fer to bur ow * C vil se vants. It is very easy to say th .t the service in too expensive, and that the numb' r fs rvan's is too g-ea* .1 believe mysdf that there may be parts of the country where Civi' servants might be called upon to perform i.ud duty, and where some odicer* might be d:spensed with, but I do not think -hat the Civil

servants are ove paid. On t l> e contrary, considering •he t ss in p>i e of a ti»*le * of c nsump ton and in nouse ents smee the Public Works policy was commenced. I think than the Oi il servants have been suffer< rs by that p licy. They feel that they have soffere 1 iath'-r than 1 benefited by it So much however, ha* been said that, in the interest oF all concerned, enquiry is des'rable, and the Government will so present information as to enabled ar ianoent to consider next sess on whether th* service is ex-t-ava ant or u*»t. Yai will agree with me «hat, though the Col ny is prosper jus and can afford to i.ay its officer ,it sh uld not'have un necessary officers; and I urn q*iite prepared to admit that possibly in a few looalit es th re may be more otficeis than are eqni ed, «nd that in the f ce of the, m.iny assertions th t h»ve been made, it is right the Government, should supply Hadiament next session wvh such inform tti n a< wi 1 enable it to judge whether the service is extravagant or not aud of the means by which it can be reduced.

PREPARING FOR ABOLITION. . I have now told you what we propose to do m respect to taking over the Provinces. I. ha* e endeavored to show tha r we are n->t going to sit tamely by an« say, ‘* WV passe i the Ac last session; We ar - nor. going to o anything now, but will wait and 'ee whether P rliatne t will r verse its decision - next se sion.*’ Tha* Act which was passed is the lav, and we reel bound to give to it ; therefore we ;>r- nt going to be quite unprepared a- the end of the seshion to take over the Provinces. We are going to accent Jhe law as it stan’s, and qualify ourselves to carry it into effect.—( ir at applause.) I think a great moral effect would follow th s course. While things go on as smoothly as they do now, it is mpossib ef r some Superin endents to realise the fact that a change is about to lake place. Trey ree day by day the sane officers eomin r to the r offic’s. they receive still the same deoutati n*. and th 'y still read the same adula’io s in the few newspapers tha* support a c ntinuanc*- of Provincialism. They cannot realise the fact • hat a cha ge is about to take place, but now they w i l really see hovfr the <*a-e s and*, aud th»t, whil-t they attempted in Parliament to oppose the change, it is new their duty, -inc- Parliament has decided agains them, to nable the General Government to ca r ry out th law. I think a great mo al effect will arise from the General Government showing itself prepared to take over tbe Provinces. CDDNXT SYSTEM.

I will now say a few wo ds about the system v for tha is what we propose to ea 1 thAn', .which we intend to submit *o Parliament next session. You are doubtl ss aware that whilst there was a unanirn us tpcliu t la t sesnon in favor of -.bolishing the Provinces, st 11 tWe was a feeing t iat t e Gee a' Government should no f ab o-b -«ll the power -t at. the central power should not bn increased. but rather dimini-hed- tha ■ there *hoold be snm** extended and real system of lo al govr-mm nt. Thr’t was the vi -w which influenced many p rsot.s in voti-g fo- the abolition of the Pm vnces. Ther wne a g eat many op nions as to t le form which the local government should take, hutit wa« agreed on i-U ha tin that it was d sizable thit the e T pen»litur» i on works <•£ « local character out of the r sidue of the Imd rt v nue -h uld be handed ov«r t>» the loca 1 gove without a s-p<ra*e Par iame tary vote. The Bi 1 which the Government introyu ed last ses ion was modelled on Acts in force in some of the neighboring Colonies,’by which shires are ere ted out of Ho td Boards < n om ‘thing of the Darw ni in pr ucipl« of the surv.val of the fit est. bat » ill did not fird favor, and is n **d übt op n *o the charge *bat these chanaes are no% as a mK mide w th 'ut gT-afc o> posi ion and ror.fli t Iv tween the valous bodies concerned. We n»w propose a sy-tem bv wl.i hj c unfits would bp entirely distinct from ma l di-t icts in fact, n it ew 11 have control pv v the th« r. We pr p >se (ok' ep th-m quite distinct, ea'-h having its own dudes, a“d each- having >ts own revenue : and, while will b * ab e. to cwie to any agr^em^ntbetween ‘hems -1 veins to wnyeen-u-al works,- it wi 1 not be necessary fir th nx to <-'o so, or to ent r into oi|ng;t on or confl ot w’th each other. The general n J ei is thi-> : Fir<t o a 1, we consi 1 r that t e ) resent P ov>n« { a boundaries are too ’arge, and are not >uitable for the futu e divis i ns of the country. We propose <hvt the whoe country tha 1 be ch ided into Counties and-th se divisions sh ll bp made aft-r clue considi rat : on I am mt (-rei)ared to s-«y at present whether the Government w 11 do this or invito the House to do it or appont a eommi s on to -!o it. It is **non hj to eav that the Gov ->uraent propose th t the con try s all be divide I into Counties, and th* t he bounda ies of this • C .unties h.ll b subj. ct to alteration if found d sirable. We proi iose, in first pi c >, the Goverhm ’ut or Parliament-, or pr b bly the Governor shall—arbitrarily, if you Ike i-o to call it—maVe in County hj t mor- bun seven divisions; and if it sho Id be bought < e i able th -se divsions shall etu»n ecch at least one number to the Ooimty Bo ird. the m >u b-rs to he -ot more than *ev u, and the Roard so eonst-t te s'-aU have the power t * r-coadW t’ e quesri n of increo e of th - number o f members subje-t to t e limit which, I think we should set—that no Board shall consist of m re than ni e mem >vrs. We prm ose that tho Hoard fir t e ected shal’ exi-1 for t *eive months only a. d that there shall then be af esb el ction subject to any permitted modific >tions which the first Bard may have made • We t'd-k that the Bo rds elected sh. uld exist f r thre- vears, and that, instead o f the system which is ado- ted in connection with most ipuii ipal bodies, of some men'bets reti ing. and the "vacancies bein ■ hlled by el . ction each year all the memher-* sh .uld continue in office for three y are, and th-' whole of the m-nabere be re-elected at the same time. The County ( *h irman we inc ine to think, should be elected by the whole cons itu ncy of each Couirty It is quite poss bl • that it may he fund necessary that the C ai man sb uld be a pud offi--er, in which ■ a eh - would be paid outof the County revei-u ; but, in order to pr y nt County Boards becomng <n any ense p litical b *di s or the creation of any of those difficulties wh ch have been encoutt ved undtr t e Provincial a stem,* we a e of opinion it is <’«-< rable that no bounty Chairman should be eligible to sit n Parliament. - (Applause.) We propose that the County

Boards shall have charge of the main roads in the County; that it shall be their doty to main* tain tho e roads, and to construct other large wo'ks which may be for the benefit of the district they comprise. The duties of County Board* wiU be quite distinct £ om those of boad Boards -tuey will be confined to ths oooetrnc tioo a >d maintenance of arte ial works within their own district, which will each represent a la ge divbion of the Colony. The Boards ehou a have means at their disposal. You are aware prob.b'y that by the Act of last Session, Parliament decided that there should be a contribution of L2 from the consolirevenue for each LI raised by local taxation not exceeding Is in the LI, and. t at there should bean equal amount contriout of the laud revenue Ihe Act pro-

vides that this contribution of L2 to LI rhould he ptidto Road Boards, but, by a Bubs°quent clause, it w s provided that in case of Shirks bein* formed, the who'e amount should be paid over to them. A li*e ptovi-don was made as to license fees, but what w© intend to propose is that the subsidies from the consolidated revenue and the land rev nue shall be equally divided between Bead List icts and County Bo rds, and th it the license fees shall go who ly to ' bounty Boards—Connty Boards to have the tol s on main roads, and also to have power to I I vy special rates for specified works, provided • that the works and the amount ot the rate be j first approved of by a properly convened meeting of ritevayers.—(Applause.) So that whi’e' we shall propose to give the County Boards very large powers, we shall also provide that the constituents of these boards shall be able clearly to express their wishes and to take care that th se wishes are carried into effect.— (Applause.) I havr spoken of constituents, and you will naturally ask, who are they to be ? Our proposal will be that the electors for a C unty *ha!l be ad those - persons who qualify

t'-'eniv lves by payme-it of rates. The electors within Hoad Districts would be the electors in Count ’es. It may bs possible, but I d • not ttiink it will he at all i-enera’, that in some parts of the C-.lony it will be considered 'Usirable to have a County, but not to hav-i Road Boardsand in any su hj t‘ e subsidies which I have mentioned wou’d wholly to the Coun*y Boards. The elect© in Koad Districts will be electors in Cou ties, but the Connty Boards will be en tireiy indeueud. Nt of Koad Boards, and the latter ought out of their own revenues to be well able to canyon th*ir functions, as they have been in the habit of doing. We consider it desirable not ■to mix up legislation with respect to the two b -de 9 , and therefore, while w-e p opng i to de 1 with Counties next session, I.am not jMvpan dto say we shall deal wth the other bodi s except so far as to enable existing Bond B -aids to continue their function-*, if any hg sl tion sbou’d be found necessary for that ;"P i se. The<e fa another matte** wh ch it is important to mention, which I hope will find favor iu your eyes, and in the eye of the

.. uujr. »»e ao n<*t propose to include any Borough in any Coun'y. We think the Borouubs should be as d stinct as any County ©•• Road l.'istrct The Counties will not thereforI*, 1 *, find themselves' swamped, an in t e »by the t< wns. The Counties and towns wII have independent existences, • and yet, whenever-it isnecessary to come to nriy general arranieme 't, it will be quite posa ble tortbe County, the Borough, and the Road. Patriot to c_ -operate an I a rive at mutual agreement Nor do we 1 of the necessity to ke-p down the expenditure of .the Counties, if t’ e ount»es are willing to forego the maintenance of expensive staffs. The Gene al Government wll assist them as mnoh as possible. We wil ! . I believe make provision bv winch; by a-ree m**nt with a County, the Public Works Department would carry out or maintain {nr the •ounty any work agreed upon. Tuat would hi a voluntary agreement betwee'n the County •>n the one side and the Public Works Department on the other. We. also p opose that a ' ou '*y ehou d have power to borrow on the revenue rai ed by special rates, and on general propesty and tolls, but not up n snbs d es. We propose to keT these revenue* so ditinck that m future the Colony shall not be I‘abl ' for the ndebt dueiS of any (, oun y, I cannot suffi ciently express my o:.inion of how import mt is that provision. For a lons* time it„has bean impo-sihle fop the_Proijnc o ß to borrow, be-

v»uoc iw w -o gee out at tne posi ion that if *he Provinces, bnrrowe I the Co.ony was liable for the ,f ebt. That is not the case and must no - , be th* ca*e with the new Counties—they must bo tow upon the means whi hj they possess, and with the consent and approbation of the rate-payers. The money they expen • mu-1 be obtained up°n their own seen ity, and no*; upon the security of the Colony. The Colony will have enough to do to borrow for i s own works; it has still a very great wo kto perform, for it has* the grand system of Trunk R«i’w ys to car-y out, which we have so vigorou ly commenced. We do not want our r=\il- - ays ro finish at thirty miles no th of Chris *- chu-rh and forty mile* out of Nelson, or that there should be no railways in West’and. and we do pot want that the radwws f om Wanga ui should do ein one directit-n at Rangi t'kei and on the other a* Waitotva. We want that 'he Prov nces in this I-land should have enti e commendation with each oth»r, and so with *he Provinces, of the other sland. We must bear th .t Itl TRlflfl. ATui QfA mil at wmnamkav

that our own responsibility will require to he c ireful’y attended to. It will be oar duty t« do wi has tie b'rvowe l moneyas posdb'e un il or railways gve ev dence. which I must *av they rre b ginning to do in a remarkable m nner, that th y can p y a c mal-’erabl ■ pr ti ui of the interest ou the mo-ey out of which hey hj -ve b en constru t d.—(Cheers.) T* this new svstem fulfils all ex e -,ta ! ions, it will ba system which wi 1 give to the conn ry the most comp'-te local government s> s’-ena it is i-os ible *o c ntrive. We shall have a varie y •f local b idie* throughout the c u try. w ich, po=sespinr apeci-il and peculiar functions, vi 1 arltame t much resronsi' ili*y a d oar-. Th y will relieve Parl ; ament o*‘ ma» y of tho-e • uties upon which members hav looked wi-h great d ead because-they are called up n t-> •leal wth matters with which very few are acquainted. We shall h*»ve separate Borough, R ’-'d Di t let, snd Coimty Gov rnmel ts, and each body, it is pr sumed, wll carrv out it = ’"net ons with >ut coming into c ntac with -be othe We sha l arrive at this result wi-hou-r newlng the P»ov n,-ial form of government. Care will b* taken to prevent any heavy staff* ex>-en btu e; but you will have' a much betteystem of loc il cin*rol than anyt ingyou cuild nos- bly n -me.' As regards the School B >ar's, the m mavement should be more local than it 1«

u"w. i nei eve tnai m addressing tbi mee ing I a n s e ki - g to those who have peculiar opo tu ?it es for jud'ing of the disndvanta es of the want of local con rol over local schools (.'rplame ) On the o*her hand, we do not desir to destroy or up et the spe ial fean.res of the t duca ional- systems to be found in diff rent par sof the Co'o >y. As to f e acion ■o be 'ak n on this subject next session s m Bil Wr* muit in'roduce, but wbetl c- it will be a com I°te measure of consolidation I cannot say. Our des r re wil be to abnl s’i spe ial r tes and to secure that an education al sy tem shoud be th< r ng l >ly carried out from one end of t e Col >ny to tin other. I am not eo'hg further i to the 1«n I question th s evenin , althou hj i' is a ma-’er about which a great deal might b • said; but I have already occupied much of your time.

on^education. I wi l ! now say a few words upon the qu°stion of 1 d cafou. I cannot give ynu.any abso'ute op'u'on upo i the subject, but the view o» th Cover, meat is that it is desirable to abol hj" the spec.al .educafon rates which now exl t in some .parti of the Colony.—(Applause ) It s also oor view th »t whilst there shou d be a g neral control over education throughout the ••ou try, there should be a much larger amount of local control than now exists in some parts; 'hat 'he e should be Targe school column t es. "e shall most that whilst local control *xi ts there sh 11 not anywhere be local neglct f r we are nt willing to allow that in any part o f New Zealand an educated population shall grow up. IMMIGRATION AND RAILWAYS. ■ Al’ow me to add o what I have said w'th reto railway* end imnrgration, that we re* "cogni- e immigration as a subject of the greatest poss bla imp rtance, and that it must re e v<v the utmost consideration. We must con noe to int < duos immigrants as they are requi ed, but we must take care.that we do not bring in more ihan are r qni ed. In every past of the Colmy theremu-t be themoat jealous watohfunesi as regards both those poin s. Itis'an essen* tlssl portion of the policy of the Qoretninenc to'

continueimrfgrftioßfa tueli a manner andto each an extent as may appear de (table, and we regard the qrnett >n as one not for counties. - or b roughs, or districts of anykindbutas.a ■. Ci4i>mal question.—(Applaos-.) We are not <-o - g to aba- don our r-riway policy; we lo6k . 1 . - upon it Ksonr duty, pnceedu g perhaps more alowy th n hi he- to, to continue the construetion of a tnu-k syst m thru hj each island.—* • (Applause.) Wesha l not be oontent.with fragments <-f line: we will complete a thoronut trunk ystemif thejpount y will support us in ~ doing so Some Provinces may conceivably > say “We have the r* Iw -y« we want, and we . »d n’t cure about. th • construction ot more else- * '. wherebut I do n< -t think that will be generally sal«or f> It. -I have hot found evidence . of a y such a«l&iiaw«{ and he mAn we recede fn>m the i rovirc al sy-tem fhe more will mere boun aries c a-e to Lave force hi men’s mi d-*, and t e more shall we find a readiness

to ok upon qmst"* aas affecting New Zeaa w ole, instead of as interesting only to pa tsof it. , EXISTING PROVINCES AND COUNTY BOUNDARIES. Of -curse, wh n one is speaking under a ■' s- nse of gre vt • e.-pon-übillty, and having to go it. to ma* yd< tails o e is liable to overlook remarks he •• t nds to make, and I find that I have omitted to menti- >p a most i uportaiit *»««•- . t-r—nam v. hat we do not consider that it wi 1 be either desi ble of. n oe-siry that the count e Khoudbe o i er uinous with the Provincial bovt da ie ,wh Ist in s >m© cates comities . snould be ext. iid<*-> over e >cfi “id© of the boundari sof a fro Vince, h.<t twees a very em* barntssing questi- h—or. ratW, a question whicb si-e i<B emharraehig—that is-; “Moware you goi g t> di ide *he r-sltui of the land rev - idle of the land revenue is to be div -I- d, and tie county oversteps the b;»un ary £ tie Pr • vinces, how are you to appor ion the residue of the tvo Provinces?’*; W«* have 'houg st how the matter ought to be setfl*l. In t e first instancy on what principle w-«ud you d vtd toie idpef If on the hss sof iopu at on, then y u .ive the more settl **l end wet th er distr cts tii-* lion’s share, and leave t ; e le.-s peopled districts at a disad- ‘ vat.tag-. We thm'- that woud not be right, Spd we propo e to divide t’ e re idui* and make ha*f «ay hi- t-> the o»nnties on -he basis of populat on, hj I the other b If on the basis of area, i tus-will gve m-ogniti n both to area • and popul -tion. and will do way with the diffi- • <ul y. It will be e*s> im <e» such a system to say “ Here’s a c-mn y with so many, thou-su-d a-reiin it -vin-v B ; and also so many hund ed inhabit ants in Pr vines A, and so .• mmy n Pr-vinci B ” Th n he share of the rtß-due of t e lan-l reve- ue which the County will r ceive for area will i-e trom Piovinoe A, as t e pro-ortiuii «>f is ar-n in .that-Province ‘ L tot ewh 1 area of the Frovirtce.sowillbe i f r portion-otbe half of the whole res.due. Simi >-riy wll the area p oport on in the Pro- * v nee be ecidel sndbyliherul-iJ of proportion;, will thep pu'atioj sha e in each Province be* ' a-ioe tin -I. This mit'.er I shoul-i have • ref rr d o before. I trust y- u will forgive me for bav put it xa her uut of its place.

PROVINCIAL CHARGES FOR BAILWAT 'INTKBEIT. T>i re is «n th«r point, ana a very important oe, to which Imi st refer. Wo have found tht the present system, by which the Provinces each continue to be. responsible for d ficiency of in e est on the cost of the cot str ctii n6- th rai wa - b within its bounda* rie -, is very u-is tis acto y. W e have to keep a separate system- *f aciwinte, «n'l separate m nagement in ca hj roviftce, in order to tell hj w much is to b * o* a g d a> ainst e>cW This hj\ v much difficul y .hat we propose to ssk Parliam-i t next session to ant Or.se the C ■lonial tl-.ve mnen. to tak- ©vir the cont’ ol and ti anageme t nl liabilities bf ali’tbs rad* ways in <he ou«.y. tAppla .se.] I nwy say, apart from »hn fit. ncia! a*i* ct of the question wh eh has to be deilt *t>, but wh.ohJl do-not proi osr to enter u o > new, this is one of the most imp r ant xn. tors ve have to deal with. Infac , th ? v imster for Pubi c Works hasput it m the.strongest manner ant siys:—“lf I am to be to couti ue to roa; age the rail* ways a* th y now are I .can «ot d i it” If we * want to V .ke a railway from one Province into anoth t, we have to keep separate' accounts in each In a few ' ay< »he r Iway from Canter* bury to tago wll un across the Wa taki, and we smul l av to ke p two s par«t& accoun- s of ■ exp» nditure and ie e pt*. It most be rememberedy wih res eot to t e Provinces being e*iK) able 4or the tailway* in future, that, whilst wo c«n e p accounts between the Provinces and the Colony now, because they are • ist net, these amounts will bl 'imaginary wh *n the Pr -vine s cease to exist, aid he debts fr m one t. the other will have a very uure 1 cha at r. Ic would be as if Brow .and June* be ng In partneiship should indd nly call th mso.v.-s Brown and Co. and Jones and Co., and should prone d to drawupon e co other and keen a counts of the ■ raiis oiio s Ihpa t at, in future, we shall hj .ve sueh a syst m of finance that we shall not' tin I the P o inces wi hj d fioi noi-s which the > olon. *as to make up. For he P.ovineei. «hj n they pease *.* ex et can ha dly be «aid to o*e us m ney. Howevr, I do net wish to ente. m o ihe fioan » question to-night.

in conclusion Let me nyit- you t« v i i fancy, after the chang s I have indicated have t>.k<-n place, any Pfj-t f ®ou-iny which s nwa Province. *he Provincial! ts talk as if si,; re is to be a f a.ful ch n,-e when the Provincial system omes to a i end I think, however, that you may after th en • • £ netttes ion go through aPr vine and n tbe aware thrit the Superm-t-m eut and Ids xecut v<* have parsed away. You may be quite indiffe ent whither the police and i ols r • c ntrd ed by a Superin- - re- dent or by th- Genet'l G ■vemmen*', ft you ’ ake up a m .mug pal er ou may miss the old ep tof deput.i ions tha have-ai ed upon • is Honor, but «ou may find con i.Ktion in th r |»o*ls of t eme t-ngs of County or Ko ui ( Boards.--( | plau«e.) You may not siumb e upon b„ per ntend nts or P.ovincial Kxe utves, a on the ex >en ive* incidentals of 'UKihime of P ov hj: aI Governments, but you miy find tu.t mat -ts ie at ng to roads and pu’l.u work-Ate big at e.del to by local ‘s call d Co-i ty Bards and Ro -d B-iaids. • xo i may not eg- eet -d by wangling over the onflicti.ig •Kins fr id p eferred by c itf it e-, to-vns and ou lying at i ts. but that los may b b> ue w en you fi din op-ration, oca' b dies »ith dmi s deary < efi-<ed reve<iu s_se;u.el-.al ttel, a dpo en if combinai n, bu no -rou ds for uo tu> qua- rtla You may nt .ee i cntat to so ools fl nrishtog m some pla it s chi re-ira 'iiing «Ud in oth r& beciueh*r« r« osoi osto«h<ch hj yean be s mr, buti you n>«y ftnd e /*rywhere a proud deermmati.... »hat the .poimi«t 0.. - of New Ae land shall b* m educat-d po U’ation. —lAtxdau e.) \ou will leartt th t the charge of I arb rt sm the hands ~f the General Gove n i ent, but hat loc 1 Boar s, with funds at c 2 cp inm ud ttend t.o the improvtm nts of fie harbors. If you trave-- by ral way and p i«s from o e l-’rovi ce to an • hj r you will-be inlffee t er your far- would l ave re* present d a profit of th farmer, .r a Iss to ta. or ta. la ter ; ut you may le»m that the rnlwayy « f th.- iVLmy a - m-maged up«n a co npr hen ive n • lib ral sch mo. You may «nJ fo v e des r th*t it s all be so, that charitbl notation* are sub id s-d and tat the * Gen ralG v rnmen i tere t i se fiathemasfiu? as i*. e•• s ary or «e .ng hat he subsidi-s are prop rly appl ed ; fmt th t otherwise the oonItm «nd th ma ageme ir, are 1-cal. I think th t upon such a i-mvey y u would not be Itk-ly io leg. et 'h- a <-e ice of -mythi g that ' ha-i bee . prued as Pro in ia . when you loand even where- ev dene - of (be operation- ' -•-y-temof local lOven.ment in- the Inrest' - a dbe t i-ense of the wor.li«—c - tai ly fart ner and better th n was -ever attem tednud-r the • Prom id system. I t nk you w.ll findthewhole ma.hmery of Govern ent ronniug more • so« tly and costing fa- Kss hj n bef.iW, and V th*t yon will discover the 0,1 ny to- be mnA--Isa disturbed by unexi« te 1 finano a? d fficul- i ie-. I believe that, whet -r th have been - successful or nnsuc e sfui, Pr -vinoial author!- ' taaa hj v.i ban ao u ted »*v a p hlic and dig* '-V mt i> Bei spint; bu. 1 . Ido not ( on ersuch aeyst m «I have will have reason fo even mementaryreard«hst they have pa-s d away.—(AppKuse.)