THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Evening Star, Issue 3903, 27 August 1875, Page 2

THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

[By klegraph ]

Wellington, August 27. Yesterday afternoon, Mr Bunny moved without notice, thi l the House be adjourned in order that a debate might be taken upon certain remarks made by the Treasurer last evening, when speaking to the Wellington ■Special Settlemtm's Amendment Act. *he Treasu.er had said that he endeavored in vain to obtain some information as to certain vouchers, the payment of which was authorised by ihe Superintendent, the Auditor hav ing informed him he could furnish no such informatiem, and upon this the Treasurer had founded a charge of abuse of power. Mr Bunny then produced the vouchers, bearing the Auditor's signature, and stated that, it it hail not been for the Treasurer's incorrect and damaging statements the previous evening, the Bill wou'd have been thrown out as desired.

vlr Fitzherbert commented upon the conduct of the Treasurer with considerable severity for not having ascertained the truth of the charge before making it. In the course of his lemarks, lie told the Treasurer these side winks would have no effect in warding off the several grave inquiries now hanging over Ministers. There was no doubt accusations had levelled at Ministers from all round the House, and he could assure the hon. member many more grave ones would yet be made Messrs Hunter and Pearce both spoke to the point, and said the Treasurer kad thrown out imputations against the Provincial Govt-mrm-nt that were quite unfounded and uncalled for, and they supported the allegations of the members for the Hutt and Wair.irapa. Mr Kodeston asked the Speaker what was the best course to pursue in order to obtain access to th * papers regarding the WardCnaprnan Inquiry. The Speaker was understood to say the best course would be to hold a conference with the other House, regarding the disposal of the ?apers laid before the Joint Committee of nquiry.

THEJABOLITION DEBATE.

The debate was resumed by Mr Johnstone, who announced that he would support the Bil!. The hon. gentleman combated the historical parallels instanced by the member for the Hutt, and showed that they proved the very opposite of what they were intended to do. Instead of the Bill beinaj the prototype of the French Central Government it was the very conti ary. Tt proposed to give out-districts a fair share of land revenue. As for the country being intoxicated with- the expenditure of borrowed money, he failed to see it—we never had the money. We imported a great many immigrants and a great deal of railway material, but paid for them in London hy deb. ntures, and that w.vs not very intoxicating. As for the voice of the people, it was, as he read it, in favor of the change from one end to the other of the Colony. The most that could be doue was to get some of the people to ask for postponement I or another year, the Provincial officeis being desirous of beinx their own executioners. The people cared little who did the job, so that it was done. There never whs a great change or reform bufc all sorts of trouble and disaster were predicted ; and it should be remembered that Catholic Emancipation, and many other great reforms, had been achieved agaimt the wishes of a great proportion of the people benefited. The machinery by which the change was to be made was not perfect, but it was sufficient f>r the purpose at presetit; it could bring about the transaction without any hi ch or shock, and would reduce the present system of P ovincialistn to a mere geographical name. The member for the Hutt had said fuller powers should be given to Provincial Governments and less to the General Government, but if that were doi.e they would soon smash the country to atoms. The leader of the Opposition, in one of his spee lies, promised them a new constitution infinitely better and more liberal than the Government ptoposals; but it was found easier to promise than perform, and it was left for the member for Bruce to giva them one", and the fact of his deemiug it necessary to do so should be an admission of the necessity for a change. The lion, member for Auckland Lity West told them that a great wrong had been done to the Colony by latge blocks of laud being alienated to wealthy individuals ; but who alienated the land? iNone but the Provinces; and yet the hon. gentleman wanted them to perpetuate thi-t p-rnicious system. The hon. gentleman referred to the time, a few years back, when Wellington was so impecunious that it was forced to lay hands upon the deposits in the Savings Banks and the funds of the Koads Hoards, which were never returned to them. He also referred to the intention of the Superintendent to sell iu one lot the whole of the land in process for reclamation, to show that injuries to public interest occasionally arose from Provincial control. Another instance was when the Wellington Provincial Council was sent about its business by the Superintendent because they would not app.ropriote money they did not possess. The Provincial Secretary had endeavored to make out that his Government had expended almost as much in the Maaawatu as had been received from it. After going carefully through the Provincial accounts, he found that the complaints of his constituents were in every case well founded, and that they did not get anything like a fair share of the money derived from their district, and the Pi ovincial Treasurer stated to the £• ouse what was not the fact. If anyone assessed his district, it waa the General Go- (

vernment who derived the benefit. Touohing the financial part of the Bill, a point had been made that the consolidated revenue could not afford to pay what was to be chnvged against n' 1 $ aßaista "ce promised to the ftoad Boards and Muni ipalities could not be met; but he < >ointed out that the capitation money uid gr j,t.H t> R , (1 ,l Hoards ]„„t year amounted to L 117,000. whiU> the ass-Vance promised in the scheme! was only I 12<\ 0). The hon. tentleman criticised the rinanm..l aur.ingementß contained in the Bill, and said that comparing the Bu 'get with that of former years he could not see that th« pronosals of th.e Bill would very seriously affect the consolidated revenue. With regard to the statement of the member for the Hutt, that the bailiff had already been here and valued our estate, and that we should have to show tangible security for any more loans, the way our last loan was negotiated was most indubitable proof of ourhiuh credit. Great countries like France, Amei ica. and Italy, could not borrow on better terms—if as good; and powerful empires like Russia and Austria had to pay a great deal more. Mr Brad3haw avowed that he had always been an opponent of the Provincial system, yet althou;h he voted for the resolutions last year he hoped this measure would not be finally passed this session. He would vote for the second reading, and would endeavor to aid the Bill in Committee, but, would oppose the third reading. He regretted that larger powers had been thrown upon Provinces than hud been contemplated by the Constitution Act. Still, taking another view, they were placed in an anomalous and dangerous position : although Otago ;md Canterbury p>sses-ed large revenues, they could not borrow a penny, while Koad Boards could do so. Had Provincial Governments br en in the position to anticipate their revenues, they would not so often have been forced to tbiow valuable blocks of land into the' market. After t uching upon a few points in the speeches of other hon. members, the hon. gentleman proceeded to show that the financial arrangements of the Bill placed Otago in a worse position than she is in at pirsent. Where the Otago ' ouncil had appropriated L 220.000 for public works the Government proposals did not provide an thing like this amount, and he utterly failed to see whence it would be derived, unless blocks of land were forced into the market The Bill was most unjust in its operation upon our districts as compared with municipalities. Its motto appeared to he—"lo him that hath shall he given, and fiom him that hath not shall be taken even that which he hath." The only result of the arrangement would be that the Colonial Government would ultimately lay their hj mds upon the land fund. He was confident of that, and he challenged the Treasurer to give a guarantee that it would not be done. Phe hon gentleman commented on the salesof Moa block a transaction considered to reflect discredit upon Provncial institutions, rt'hile deprecating the s.iic, it must be admitted that its necessity was caused by the legislation of the General Government. Clugcs of mismmagemeut and incapacity were made against the Provincial Government : he did n<>t defend them, but the General Government were lar from perfect. Take as an instance when, in order to deal with ;hc goldfi-dds quest.on, they called for essays on the subject, and while debarring iiny member of the House from vompefcing, they appointed two gentlemen—one eminent in g'-'ol'.'gy, the other in chemistry—to decide upon thee says. The result was that, the original intention was overlooked, and the chief price was awarded to the best essay from a geological point of view. On the question of taxation he might say the Government would have to deal with that sooner than they thought of. No sooner hail the construction of public works begun to cease, than they would realise what had taken place in Canada and elsewhere—the revenue would suddenly decrease, and taxation must h id recourse to to meet our unliquidated liabilities. The Provinces should make all laws, the power to make which is given them by the constitution of this Legislature, which should not have the power of saying they were ultra vires The appeal should be made t:> the Kupieme Court, which, in a cheap way, would deal with the question of the legality of those laws. It would give power to the Provinces to levy taxes within their own boundaries, and to tax land within their boundaries. This would produce harmony instead of conflict between the Provinces and the Supreme Legislature. He thought that if the delegated powers were withdrawn, the Provinces would merge into the position of municipalities, but a separata ex stence they ougl.t to have. He would recommend cnat more time should be taken, so that after mature deliberation a measure night be framed which would give satisfaction to every one, because such a thing ought to be possible. There could be only one result if the present measure was carried, and that was the separation of the two Islands.

Tbe House rose a 5.30. On resuming at 7.30, Mr Williams resumed the abolition debate as an uncompromising supporter of tho Hill and opponent of tbe greedy and grasping propensities of the Proviucialists.

Air Swanson followed in a long and characteristic speech against the Bill. He spoke mainly from an auckland point of view, and defended the Provincial administra ion of Auckland as being as piudent and liberal as it could be under the circumstances. All Mr Stafford's talk about nationality of feeling was the veriest rot. Uniform laws would not work, auy more than they did in Great Britain. If the Bill whs good take it out ana be not afraid to meet the people face to face. He would oppose the Bill through every stage.

Mr Ormond followed in n roost effective tipeech. He spoke heartily in favor of abolition, and was applauded lou lly after speaking fqr more than an hour and a-ha'lf. He «as particularly scathing and incisive in criticising the formerutteiances of Sir G. Grey and Mr Wood. He reviewed Mr Swanson's speech and those of several Opposition speakers to show that the Auckland Government had failed in its duties lamentably, and referred to tin* land purchases at Coromandel, so denounced by Sir G. Grey, saying they were carried out strictly ac cor.ling to the wieh<s of Superintendent Gillies. He further teferred to sir George Grey making the ~t.d Council rescind the motion favoring abolition it passed a day or two befoie. ;-ir George Grey spoke about lawbreakers, but to those uhu opened the Wairarapa Valley against his express instructions he gave the pre-emptive rights to a milo sijuare of land as a reward. He could cite fifty cases to show thai, the hon. gentleman had been the greatest law-breaker the count)y ever saw. He asked where was the policy the Opposition pomised them? Tiny had not one to give ; no half dozen of them could bo got to upon any fundamental features. Spea ling of increase of tavation, he hoped the Government would cut tho last piece of ground from under the Opposition, and declare their intention of down a menßUte to compel property to contribute to the levenue of the Colony « fair share of taxation, which it wa* not now doing. H* denied that the Provinces deserved such great credit for what they did in the past. He did not consider the general administration what it ought to be, but there was an excuse in the fact that they were always engaged in fighting for tteir existence against the att <cki of the Provinces, As au instance of the fickleness of popular feeling he said when Sir eorgt Grey led the Colony the last time he would not havo got half-a-dozen votes if he had stood for any constituency in the Colony. How did they know that if he obtained power now it might not seriously affect our relations with the Imperial Government? Sir George h«d a grievance against them in his defeat at Home. He would vote lot the Bil if it had only the clause abolishing Provincialism after a certain date, as being the first step towards merging local differences in a general struggle lor the national good.—(Prolonged applause.)

Mi-Harrison would vote for thesecoudreadinghe would offer no factious opposition, but would prefer submitting the measure to constituen s He said if Mr Oiuioud's speech did not altogether alter his dedsiou it considerably modified the views he had held on the question.

ii. T?i? ynol ' 18 Bl)oke at m "lnight in defence of the Uill, nad announced that tho Government would undoubtedly press it through durlug the session. He argued that the i .ill was more liberal to the Province* than their own Governments, »ud that all their lands and endowments woold be secured to them. The

Qovwnnunt had no Intention of applying ab*< lition to both islands until thejr ascertained during tho recess that the equities of the case and the feeling of the country demanded that they should do so ; and that they decided to do as soon a=i ever the whole Cabinet met in Wellinaton.

Mr Katene 'was for complete and immediate abolition.

Mr W. Kelly also supported the Bill. He was for immediate abolition.

Mr T. Kelly moved an adjournment at 1.20 This afternoon Mr Macandrew asked, in the event of the Provinces being abolished and the estimated revenue of the various Provinces during the current financial year falling short of the amount necessary to cover the present Provincial votes for Provincial public works and services, who is to decide as to what works and services are to be abandoned and what are to be carried out ?

Major Atkinson said that whea the Provincial Councils voted LBOO,OOO more than they had for constructing public works, they evidently did not contemplate carrying them owt in one year, and as the decision regarding them was left in the hands of Superintendents and Councils, the Government proposed before proceeding to construct these works to take +he advice of the Superintendents and of the Executive Council upon the matter.