THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Evening Star, Issue 3902, 26 August 1875, Page 2

THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

[By Telegraph.]

THE ABOLITION DEBATE. Wellington, August 26. At 7.30 on Tuesday evening Mr Bunny reopened the debate. He did not think much more could be said, notwithstanding what had been said against Superintendents and Provincial Governments, He thought something might be said in their favor. The Bill brought ilowu had not been suffi neatly criticised. I here had been too much said about the provincialism ot Greece, &c. Better to look at ihc matter more practically. The measure should be looked upon with suspicion, for it was brought forward by those who were going Li benefit themselves by it—that is, bringing Provincial revenue into the coffers of the General Government. Ho understood the Bill to be only tentative; but why was not j a perfect measure brought down? There had j been twelve months to prepare it. The Bill, j instead oi increasing Provincial revenue, deI creased it. The Colonial chest, in fact, takes I one-half of what had hitherto been Provincial revenue. This Bill provides not one shilling for outlying districts. It concentrates the j whole revenue ot the Colony into certain centres of population We want some means of expenditure for opening the country. As yet not a single step has been taken to fix our

newly-arrived immigrants in the country. He did not believe in the -Bill, though convinced that if the country wer-* polled it would be in favor of the change in the form of government. He referred to the meeting at the Wairarapa of his constituents, who were in favor of a more simple form of government, but did not understand the Abolition Bill, If people close to the seat of government did not understand the clauses of the Bill, how could the people generally throughout the country do so ; and therefore was it not right and proper they shoulr be consulted before this measure was allowed to pass ? If this Bill passes, the freedom of the people is from that moment done away with. The Government want all the revenues of the Colony, and this Bill simply means handing them |over to the Colonial chest. They (the Government) must have money, and they can only get it by robbing the Provinces. They may be able to carry on some of the large trunk railways, but as for roads and bridges iu country districts, there will not be one sixpence for them. He read a statement showing Provincial expenditure hitherto in country districts of the Prorinco of Wellington, showing that :tbe Province, under the Abolition Bill, would only receive L 16,000 in place or L55,000’ as they received under the present syetem. It would pay the City of Wellington to raise i LIOO,OOO to help the country districts. The country will make the city. The

Govornawt may b* afraid of tho subject of Increased taxation, bat it must be faced. It can* not borrow more money. Why should we be spending our money to improve large private estates, and not make them pay their fur quota to the revenue ? It is the duty of the Government to tackle this question. We must show our creditors that we are in a position to pay tie interest, or the whole thing will ho a failure. Talk of logrolling, now this Bill would complete and perfect the system. Mr Bryce had said towns were favored by the Provincial Governments at the expense of the couutiy districts, but he (Mr Bunny) considered that by this Bill towns were unduly favored. Government know th»t if this Bill is not passed this session it will never be passed. Government admit their incapacity to frame a complete measure, but leave it to Orders in Council. He trusted the House and the Government would pause before taking such a step at all, otherwise it will be the bouuden duty of the Opposition to use constitutional means to stop the passing of this Act. Go as far as the second reading, but stop there ; otherwise they will not be able to carry their Hill through committee, lie suggested that the House bo adjourne i for six weeks, and let the members go to their constituencies, and consult and explain to them the purport of the Government Bill; then let us see what the House will say to it when we re-assemble at the end of six weeks. Better still, wait till the new Parliament meets.

Mr Shephard, of Nelson, spoke in favor of the Bill. He did not think the resolutions, as passed last y ear, sufficient for the country. It was not the Provinces of the North Island that were only to be be abolished, but those of the whole Colony, and, after years of debate and consideration, the people generally thought so too. His strongest reason for supporting the Bill was that it deals with the whole Colony; Provinces rich, or poor are to be dealt with alike. He believed that this abolition of the Piovinces and tho administration of the government as a whole will be much more efficiently carried out. Police, lunatics, education, -surveys, &c. —when these are all dealt with from one centre, and by uniformity of action will be undoubtedly more efficiently managed. He will not admit that that Government whk b costs least is always best, and it is not entirely oil account of economy he supports these Bills, but because he believes we shall then have a much more efficient form of government. He referred to Sir Julius Vogel’s statement last session that the General Government had to sacrifice one and a-half millions to the Provinces to secure their support, and thinks when such support has to be purchased, and at such a price, it was time that those who required such a bribe to secure useful measures for the whole Colony should be swept away\ Tne next reason for his supporting the Bill is that the present system of finance must be improved. Now, no one outside tho Colony could tell what our revenue really is, and if we have to apply’ for more loans we must show what our. meins are. We must go on with our public works. Stoppage would be fatal. Our revenue should be all in one account, so that the whole monetary trans actions can be shown at one glance. The hon. member had no doubt of the lecal power of the Assembly to abolish the Provinces. Though he would support the second reading, he hoped alterations would be made iu com mittee whereby less would be given to the towns and more to the country districts. He gave instances where a town, such a> Nelson, which under the Bill would get more than they want, and named a country district that would very materially suffer unless alterations were made in committee in the direction indicated. Ho must oppose the third reading. A long pause occurring, Mr Dignan rose. He said he heard with greats pleasure many valuable speeches on both sides of the House. He agreed with those who said they must judge of measures, not men. The people should have an op portunity of expressing an opinion on the measure before it becomes law. He moved that the Bill be read a second time this day six months.

Sir D. M‘Lean said that amendment had taken the Government by surprise, but it was their intention to resist it.

Mr Sheehan said the Government wanted no more discussion, but his party had taken such measures to prevent the question bring brought to a conclusion to-night. He adverted to the speech of Mr Luckie. Vie (Mr Luckie) disparaged the opinion of f he people. It was not so formerly. He then said : The land for the people, and people for the land. He referred to Mr Buckland’s speech as being merely an attack on Sir George Grey. The hon. member had said the Opposition was unfairly prolonging the debate. He denied it. He said the discussion had been carried on fairly, though the time might come when it would be necessary for the Opposition to take another course. Referring to Mr Buckland’s statement, that the constituents of members had given them powers which empowered them to alter the ( enstitution, ho must remark that his (Mr BucklandV) constituents had unmistakeably affirmed that. The action he; (Mr Euckland) intended to take was distinctly opposed to their wishes. The hon. member at great length criticised Mr Buokland’s speech He said for his five years’ experience Provincial Councils were far more careful of the expenditure of public money than this House. He had in this House seen three-quarters ol a million voted away in one afternoon. The hon. member then referred to the position of the present Government. They had come into power as the friends of Provincial Governments. No one in the present House had been sent there on the question of the abolition of Provinces. It was not before the country, and he argued therefrom that this House ought not to decide so important an issue. He considered that the resolution passed last year in favor of abolition was owing to the influence of the 'Bank of New Zealand, which was custodian of the Government conscience—an institution which not only negotiated the Govern ment bills, but drew them The hou. member was convinc d that if the House had known Sir J, Vogel would not be here to introduce and explain this Bill, the resolution of last year would not have been passed by the House. With regard to the legal question he (Mr Sheehan) was firmly convinced the Assembly had not. power to pass-the Bill now before the House. The hon. gentleman continued at great length. At 2.30 a m. the hon. member sat down, and Mr W. Johnstone moved the adjournment of the debate, te be resumed on Friday. Mr Yon der Hyde presented a petition, praying that the House would not assent to the Bill for electing Mayors by ratepayers. Mr Kelly asked for all correspondence between the Auckland Superintendent and the General Government, regarding the advance of L 40.000 agreed to by the House last session. The Colonial Treasurer said the correspondence would be laid on the table.

In reply to Mr Pyke, Mr Atkinson said that in making the appointment of a SurveyorGeneral the claims of local persons, duly qualified for the office, would be entertained. No steps had been taken in the matter yet. Mr Ballmce introduced a Municipal Corporation Loan Bill. It was read a fir-d time. Mr Rolleston moved that it is desirable the House should be informed in what manner the Legislature signified its desire for the shifting of the Judges of the Supreme Court to different circuits, as stated in the letter of the acting Colonial Secretary of the 6th March, 1875, in the following words “ In making ihe proposal the Government was actuated by a desire to carry out the expressed wishes of the Legislature.” He said he held strong opinions upon this matter, and he did not consider the proper course had been taken. r lhe hon. gentleman, after commenting upon the correspondence which took place, said the action of the Government struck at the very root of justice in the Colony. Ho hoped the Government would give him an assurance that no such step regarding the removal of the judges would be taken in future, and he hoped Parliament would be invited to co-operate in framing a measure to completely reform the whole system of Supreme Courts proccedure. He took exception to the expression quoted in his notice of motion. It was not warranted by what had passed in that House relating to the matter, and was therefore very dangerous. The House had a right to feel aggrieved at such a statement. Mr Bowen said the words regarding the “expressed wish of the Legislature" were inadvertently used, though the Government understood it to be the wishes of the Joiat

Oeminlttee. With regard to tho removal of the judges, the Oovernmont hoped to oomo to satisfactory arrangements with the judges themselves.

M r _U e hb moved that there be laid before the I louse copies of all correspondence and telegrams between Government and the Superintendent and Provincial Executive Council of Canterbury, relative to the erection of Government buildings in the City of Chislchurch, The bon. member said they were paying an extraordinary’ high rentiil for accnmmodVion afforded in the General Government, offices in Christolmtch. He further detailed all the arrangements which bad been made. between the General and Provincial Governments of Canterbury regarding these buildings and their site. Mr Richardson said the question was important, and at present was in a Very unsatisfactory state. The General Government were very inconveniently placed with regard to office accommodation at Christchurch. The matter was placed in a very awkward predicament by the action of the Provincial Government last session in withdrawing their share towards tho erection of suitable buildings on the plea of economy, and it was a question what expenditure the General Government should go to to erect upon the eite now available. He would lay the papers on the table. They would also attaoh the Commissioners’ report. Mr T. Kelly thought the Government sohuld pause before spending money in architectural adornments for any eity in the Colony Mr May moved that tho report of the Public Works and Immigration Committee, on the petition of the Trustees of the Wairoa and Maraitai Highway Road Boards and others in the Province of Auckland, be printed. Agreed to.

Mr Murray moved that, in the opinion of the House, the rate of freight for minerals on the General Government railways should not exceed 2d per ton per mile, exclusive of terminal charges. He doubted the wisdom of making any profit upon the carri .ge of coal. It was such ea indispensable element in so many industries that the Government might well consuler the matter, and grant to the Southern lines what bad already been promised to the Auckland and Mercer line.

Mr Richardson said the hon. member ought to be fully aware that the Government had no control over the rates of th« Southern lines. They were asked to do what was at present impossible, and he thought the hon. member should withdraw his motion. The motion was withdrawn. Sir George Grey moved that, in the opinion i, 0 House, it is absolutely necessary a suit* able building should forthwith be erected for the accommodation and safe-keeping of tho valuable library of the General Assembly. The hon. gentleman, after paying a high tribute to the great value and exceedingly good arrangement of the library, said it would be exceed ugly unwise to endanger the loss of so valuable a national property. Sir Donald M’Lean said the Government fully recognised all that fell from the bon. member regarding the preservation of ancient documents relating to the Colony, and to its aboriginal race. He might state that the Government bad caused to be compiled a thoroughly efficient history of the Middle Island, by Alexander Mackay, of Nelson, and a similar one for the North lulaud would also be prepared. Mr Richardson pointed out that tho matter had been discussed the previous session, and one before, and the Government considered that, under present circumstances, namely, the erection of the new buildings and ths state of rottenness of tho buildings between the House of Representatives and Legislative C ouncil, they thought it better to defer the matter for some time. At present they hrd two recommendations regarding the Library under consideration, and by next session they would be prepared to submit plans on the matter.

Messrs Andrew and O’Neill warmly supported the motion o£ Bir George Grey ; the latter gentleman suggesting that a patent room should be attached, so that they could also secure their plans and specifications of railways.

Mr btafford thought the Government might evade all responsibility if they handed the matter over to a Commission, The question had been under consideration for several years, and nothing had been done. If information and plans regarding the library wers banded over to a Commission, they might be left to expedite the work. Kvery year the library was getting more valuable, and if such a calamity as fire took the building, money could not replace their loss.

Mr Murray hoped the Government would de&l with the matter at once, and Bee that a sufficient sum of money should be placed upon the estimates.

Mr Carrington said it was quite miraculous that the building they were in had not been burned over their heads.

Mr Atkinson said Government experienced a natural reluctance in the way of additional expenditure without the authority of the House. They had not overlooked the importance of the matter at all; hut now that the House bad given so decided an expression of opinion upon the matter, they would be happy to confer with the hon, member for Auckland City West upon the matter, with a view to taking some steps at once to secure the safety of so valuable a property. > r George Grey said he would accept the suggestion of the Treasurer, and, ny the help of a Royal Commission, do that which the Government shrunk from without an expression of opinion from the House,

Mr U Neill moved—“ That tho Government be requested to tako into favorable consideration the report of the "Waste Lands Committee on the petition of the inhabitants of the Thames district, praying for land for settlpraedt.” >Sir Donald 61‘Lean said the Government had already taken action in the matter. The resolution was agreed to. Sir George Grey moved that there be laid before the House a return giving the names of all Europeans from whom lands or claims to lands have been purchased, or to whom compensation has been paid in respect of claims to land, out of the 1.700,000 set apart for the purchase of Native lands ; such return to show the amounts paid to each of such persons respectively, and the position and area of blocks in respect of which such payments have been made. He understood the return was already laid upon the table, but the subject was of such high consideration that he still made his motion. He had never seen anything which made clear to him the way in which so large a sum of money was disbursed. Mr Rolleston asked that "the return bo printed. .Having glanced at the return, he felt that tho House must admit it was one that required serious consideration. To his mind, it was perfectly alarming. (The hon. gentleman proceeded to read out and comment upon the it. Ms, specifying a number of cases in which large sums of borrowed money that ought to be spent on public works and immigration had oßeu Bpeufc in negotiations regarding certain Native lands.) Some of these transactions had been with a member of the House, and although these transactions might not come within the letter of the law, he was certain that they were contrary to the very spirit of our institutions. Then, speaking of the Upper House, it was well known that several members of that House were interested in the swamp purchase in the Waikato. It appeared to him it was time the Legislature came to some understanding upon the question He hoped when the Native Minister rose he would explain whether the claims referred to in the return were baaed on legal status or not. t\fr Buckland made a personal explanation, having been referred to by the previous speaker, with regard to land transactions with the General Government. Some years ago he ascertained that gold existed in a certain block of land owned by the Natives in Waikato. He tock his blankets and tools and prospected it for himself. Ho found gold there, mid certain it would one day become a goldfield, he then succeeded in leasing some 20,000 acres of it from the Mativesat 1.55 ayear—not a bad bargain. What did he do ?he handed tie whole of it over to the General Government, only getting his expenses. Ho stipulated, however, that if any reward was paid for the discovery of gold there, he should receive it. Ihere Were two other blocks of .and he purchased from the stives, one of thirteen thousand acres, which he sold to Government for 2s per acre, barely covering his expenses, and another valuable bloek he had also sold them without making any profit, and all he wanted was to sec the land settled.

Sir Donald MXean Mid the Goveramont. in accordance with their proper duty, had stepped in and acquired the right of pre-emption of Native lands. No doubt there were many people who wouldprefer to see individuals be enabled to acquire lands from Natives. He could assure the House that the work of purchasing lands by the Government in theSNorth Island was the making of that island, and had that not been done the work of settlement could not have been advanced except in a very straggling fashion. The Government had only in accordance with the desire of the House in acquiring those lands, and did'it as to them seemed host. When, therefore, acquiring large blocks of land, they found Europeans having claims, not perhaps always legal so much as equitable, it was absolutely necessary to come to some understanding before tbeyjwere able t© dispossess them. They were absolutely bound to act as they did or peril the future prosperity of the whole North Tsland. He could assure the House that nothing but the very hardest dealings had characterised the acquisition of these blocks, They had studied their best to carry out the policy of the House in regard to public werks and the placing of people upon the land. The Government would lay the fullest information possible upon every transaction mentioned in the return, and ho had no doubt whatever that now and in the future it would be found they bad acted to the beat advantage under the circumstances.

Mr Thomson thought a committee of_ the House should be appointed to re-investigate with the member for Franklyn the transactions which took place.

Sir George Grey was not satisfied that a full explanation had been given. The Native Minister told them they acted in the interest of the small farmers, but was the leasing of 20,000 acres at the head of Wanganui plains to one person acting in the interest of small settlers ? or was parting with the Waikato swamp land that should have been sacred, having been won by the blood of their fellowmen, to Russell and others looking after the interests of small farmers ? Where Government purchased large blocks of land with private rights attached, those rights should be scrupulously respected and liberally paid for. But these claims should be dealt with in public Court—not by an ir dividual in a room. The whole system of dealing with the Native lands was most pernicieus. There was no check whatever. According to the Constitution Act, the Superintendents were the persons to make these purchases. It would be a system of double check. He thought the Government should make a full statement to the House at some future time regarding every pound of the immense sum of money which had disappeared. With regard to the explanation of the member for Franklyn, he believed that that was entirely satisfactory, though it would have been far more satisfactory if the transfer had been made through a Court of Law. Sir George Grey moved that, in the opinion of the House, in the construction of wharves for railway purposes in the harbors of the Colony one uniform principle should be adhered to, and the cost ef all such works charged against the loan for railways; but if funds from that sourcejare not available, then arrangements should be made by which the foreshore endowments should be made liable for such cost in all cases without distinction. His object in bringing forward this motion was to have these matters dealt with upon some uniform plan.* The endowments referred to by the Minister for Works as having been given to the Auckland Harbor Board, bad been given by the Provincial Government many years ago, not by the General Government, as stated, and it would be many years before the Harbor Board could recoup itself the interest it had to pay on sums for effecting necessary improvements. Mr Richardson pointed out that many of the harbor works throughout the Colony had no connection with the railway system of the Colony. Some were the work of Provincial Governments, as at 1 .yttelton. The wharf at Wellington was an indispensable adjunct of the Government line here. Ho thought the matter should bo left as it was. Mr G. M‘Lean said the railway wharf at Onehunga was as much connected with the railway system of the Colony as the Wellington wharf, and that it was in a disgraceful state of rottenness, and should bo commenced immediately. Mr O Rorke also urged upon the Government that, if only to utilise the railway, the Government should do something towards placing the wharf in connection with the railway. Mr Sheehan thought the answer of the Government was insufficient. When they, at the request of the Province, constructed the railway between Onehunga and Auckland, they should have stepped in and seen that the responsible parties—whoever they were, Provineiol Council or Harbor Board—should carry out the necessary work required of them, Mr Montgomery thought the question involved interests too large to allow of its being disposed of at the present moment. It seemed to him that so large a question should be discussed at a later perioa of the session. Mr Stafford also urged the withdrawal of the motion. The motion was accordingly withdrawn, on the understanding that it would be brought on again some future day. Sir Donald M‘Lean moved—” That a select committee be appointed to inquire into the sale of the Hiako Waikato Swamp to Thomas Russell and others; the committee to consist of Messrs Bryce, Cuthbertson, Sir George Grey, Messrs Jackson, Hunter, Macandrew, Ormond, Captain Kenny, Reeves, and the mover. Sir George Grey wished that his name be withdrawn from the committee. He pointed out that the present motion did not meet what he required. He wished the whole question to be raised as to the Government breaking certain Orders in Council, and of th-sir intention to issue subsequent Orders in Council to legalise the former illegal act. The hon. gentleman recited an instance of the irregular manner in which Government dealt with Native lands, one gentleman having come down to Wellington to see the Government about a certain hoick of land and rights to the timber, and he wrote a letter to the Government, enclosing a copy of the reply the Government were to send him. He wanted the whole circumstances of the case. Mr Reeves asked that his name should be left out of the committee. It was a perfect farce in construction. He would not impute against the honor of the gentlemen composing the committee ; but there were what wo might call three Ministers and five staunch Government supporters, against three of the Opposition ; and after the point of inquiry had been made a want of confidence motion, be declined to sit upon the committee where he was outvoted. The House rose at 5.30.

Upon the House resuming at 7.30 last night, the Order* of the Day were at once gone on with, the debate on the Piako Swamp transaction, which cropped up in the afternoon, being allowed to lie over. The Bills were mostly of a private character. Mr Andrew succeeded in obtaining the second reading of a Bill talcing out of the hands of Superintendents discretionary power to allow commission to persons inducing investors at Home to purchase land in the Province. His argument was that the power had in certain oases been improperly exercised. Mr Fitzherhert moved that the Bill be read that day six months, but was beaten by twentynine to twenty-seven. Upon the second reading of the Blenheim Election of Mayors Bill, an understanding was come to that it should be so amended as to include several other municipalities desirous of electing their mayors by the ratepayers’ votes instead of by the Council. Ihe Plans of Towns Regulation Bill was passed after some discussion, a clause embracing towns laid out on private lands having been struck out. . Mr T * L - Shepherd’s Goldfields Bill, provides? for the pollution of streams, was passed. Mr Mervyn’s Bill also passed, but the clause permitting gold miners to take up 320 acre sections of land upon goldfields was struck out. The Auckland Institute and Campbelltown Athenasums Billpassed. fhe Otago Waste Land Act Amendment Bill, 1872, passed, and the House adjourned at I.IS this morning. _. , „ August 26. This afternoon at 2.30,

The Auckland Improvement Amendment Bill passed. , Mr Stout took the oath and his seat. Sir Donald M‘Lean gave notice to move for leave to introduce a Bill placing confiscated lands under the ordinary administration of waste lands.

A message was ordered to ba sent to the Up er House asking the Hon, Henry Russell to give evidence before the Waste Lauds Committee.

Mr T. L. Shepherd asked, without notice, whether the votes proposed by Provincial Councils will be capable of being expended as usual. The Treasurer replied that the whole of the votes now taken by the Provincial Councils and for which funds have been provided, will be carried out as proposed by the Provincial Councils. No sums of money will be sub stracted from these votes by the Government proposals, ___________