THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Evening Star, Issue 3892, 14 August 1875, Page 2

THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

[By Telegraph ]

T1 ~ , , Wellington, August 13, Mr Roues ton has given notice of his intention to move :—“ For copies of any instruction or credentials given to i homas Russell as representing or acting for the Colonial Government.” Also—“. That there be laid on the table a return showing in detail all payments, allowances, or gratuities made or authorised to be made to auy agent or agents or representa* tives of the Colonial Government on account of services rendered outside of the Colony it co the 30th of June, 1874, specifying the services on acccount of which such expenditure has been mape or authorised.” In answer to a question from Mr Rollestos, The Treasurer laid upon the table a return provided for in the 65th section of the Conititutton Act,

In reply to Mr Sheehan, The Government said the Bill for facilitating tuc recovery of rates against real estates was in preparation.

Sir George Grey asked for leave to introduce a Bill to enact that all orders iu Council in relation to confiscated lands which may hereafter be issued by the Governor, or which may have been issued since the 20th of July last, shall be null and void.

bir Donald M‘Lcan said tlie proposal was of such a character that the Government would oppose the introduction of the Bill.

Sir George Grey proceeded to state his reasons for asking to introduce the Bill. The Government had already admitted the necessity for bringing confiscated lands under the ordinary laws of the Colony. They also admitted they had committed an illegal act regarding certain confiscated lands, and- he believed many more unlawful transactions of the same kind had been done. Ho also believed that many persons now in the Colonyheld lands out of confiscated blocks, without any legal title. He must protest against these secret dealings with lands, such as giving largo portions of the public estate to one gentleman in an illegal manner, and without the knowledge of the Home, or the country. It was time therefore, that some healing measure should be introduced. He denounced the practice of covering over these misdoings by Orders in Council. The hon. gentleman reviewed previous legislation in reference to confiscated lands, and instanced how a clause was introduced into an Act, by which several private individuals wore placed in different positions to other inhabitants of Auckland. Such things should not be allowed. The land laws of the Colony should apply to all alike. They should not be in a position to give one gentleman a property valued at half a million for a mere nothing, nor should Government be any longer in a position to introduce laws to rectify their unrighteous acts. In asking to introduce this Bill he wanted it to pass through the House as far as the second reading, and then relegate the matter to the next Parliament to finally decide as to what was tne best means to correct these abuses. They would be a new, unprejudiced, and impartial body, and let them coßßuinmat t

the work begun bow. Sir Donald M‘Lean said the Government did intend to bring in a general measure to deal with these lands, as the circumstances that once caused them to be dealt with in a different manner to any other lands of the Colony had passed away. The Government had no objection whatever to aay light whatever being thrown upon the transactions referred to Tho more powerful the light the better, but he would, at the outset, repel most strongly all the imputations conveyed by the hon. member Ho wanted an inquiiy as milch as the hon! member, but he did not want to Wait for another Parliament for it, because no Government in the world could afford to sit quietly down under such an imputation as the lion, gentleman has cast upon them. Let tho inquiry be held by all means, and he had no hesitation in saying the hon. gentleman would find that the Government had not acted so unconstitutionally or illegally as he would make out. The_ Government would accord every assistance in obtaining the most ample investigation. J here had 'been no baok-parlor work and no scandalous dissipation of the public estate.

Mr Fitzherbert said to hear tbo hon. member at the head of the Government speak regarding these confiscated lands, one would think they were the very models of innocence. They promised to introduce a measure to place confiscated lands under the ordinary land laws of the Colony j but two years ago the very same promise had been made. They had also been told that they would get the proceeds from these lands He could speak as to Wellington, and tell the House that out of some L 20.000 worth sold in this Province, the Province received only some L 53. If the Government were going to bring in a Bill why not do so at once ? Let them have both Bills. What harm oould be done by albwing the member for Auckland Uty West to bring m his Bill? Let them have these charges of improper land transact tions fully investigated, Tliey were not afraid each other about these things outside the House, but hitherto no one seemed to have courage to open the question in the House, and ho would say that anything that had fallen from the Minister at the head of the Government did not remove suspicions from his mind that these improper transactions had taken place.

Mr Stafford laid no doubt these Orders in Council regarding confiscated lands were not a desirable species of legislation ; but they all knew that the practice regarding confiscated lands was most exceptional, and when it was done, it was wise and expedient to do so. The hoc. gentleman defended the General Government in the past for their action toward* the confiscated lands in relation to the three-million loan. He must tell the House that the step taken by the member for Auckland City West amounted practically to a vote of want of confidence, and should have been brought down in a different form. Having listened carefully to the hon. member for Auckland City West, he was surprised at the cool manner in which he insulted the House. He practically told them that they were a partial, and therefore incompetent, body to decide the question at issue, and the statement was made twice that the matter should be finally decided upon by a new and impartial .Parliament. Another imputation thrown upouthe House by the member for the Hutt, was that, until recently it displayed apathy or cowardice in not daring to bring charges against the Government, and not laying bare the improprieties of Government known to exist. But how did such allegations recoil upon himself ? Was he always dastard enough not to raise his voice against improper practices? Did he never pour out remonstrances in speeches of three days’duration? He trusted such insults would never again Jbe heard from the member for the Hutt against the House and his former colleagues As to the improper practices referred to he knew nothing though he believed he did of one particular case—nor did he of these orders in Council referred to; but he maintained that Orders in Council, when made, were as much law as any law in the Colony. Had the hon. member asked for an investigation he should have had his support, but instead of that he burked inquiry, and insulted the House by telling them, “You are not worthy to examine this matter, but relegate it to a new, a fair and impartial tribunal.” Imagine such a charge hanging over the heads of any Government without an opportunity for repelling it. Imagine any Government sitting clown quietly under these imputations, and allowing them to filter into'the minds of the people, and go with them to the hustings to confront them at the next election. The idea was ingenious, but ho trusted the House would not tolerate such tactics.

Mr Sheehan said the Government should not have objected at the initial stage to the introduction of the Bill. They should have waited till its second reading. He defended the motion as a proper mode of procedure to obtain an inquiry. But as the Government objected so strongly to it, and saw in it that which it was not intended to be, he would ask the Government to give a promise to the House that no action would be taken by them to ratify any illegal act before the inquiry was held. Major Atkinson read the words of the resolution to show that it said nothing about an inquiry, but wanted to condemn the Government without giving them any opportunity to defend themselves. The Government were thus forced to stand or fall upon the question raised; and however anxious for an inquiry, they would not, after the remarks made use of in the debate, declare their intention as to what they would or would not do. But if a committee of inquiry was moved for, they would promise the very utmost assistance in having a compn? t,e investigation. Mr Wood, with all his experience of Parliament had never seen leave refused to introduce a Bill by making it a vote of want of confidence. Everything seemed now to be regarded as votes oi want of confidence, was fast becoming impossible to obtain any investigation ; they were, in fact, gagged. Then as to the hon. member for Auckland City West insulting the House. He could not sea it. He asked this House to consider the whole question that session, but that as there was too much business before the House this session, Jet the next Parliament deyiae and decide upon means of dealing with the matter, Mr Guthbertaon said the hon. member for Auckland City West had expressed himself to the effect that next Parliament would be a more fair and impartial tribunal to decide this. He did not hear the hon. member ask for an inquiry, but he had heard the Government expressed a strong desire for the fullest inquiry, and offering every assistance. The object of the resolution was to burke all inquiry, and condemn the Government by a side-wind. Speaking as an independent member —for be was not a Government follower —the Government had no other course left but to oppose such a resolution at the very outset, and he hoped the House would show its disapprobation of such indecent tactics.

Mr T. L. Shepherd asked how it was that ffo many leading Opposition members, having no confidence in the present Ministry, had for years been silent ? If they had good ground for complaint against the Government, they did a great injury to the Colony by not making those charges. If the hon. member for Auckland City West really wanted an inquiry he should have moved for a select committee, fairly composed of both sides, and not endeavor to condemn the Government in a most unconstitutional manner. He would oppose the resolution, but would support the hon. gentleman if he would ask for an inquiry.

Mr Luclde was astonished to hear the House accused by one speaker of prejudice and cowardice, and by another of being corrupt and contemptible, and likening them to a French Parliament under the ancient rigimc —mere recorders of decree. He was glad to see the Government challenge the fullest inquiry. Mr Eeeves said o great deal of what had been said was only throwing dust in the eyes of the House.—{“ Hear,* from for the member for Timaru to say he knew nothing of these charges. Last session a grave charge had been made in the other House, aud if no one else would repeat it here he would. It was this—that Government had, m contravention of the laws they themselves had made, sold a valuable portion of the public estate in the centre of the North Island to Thomas Euasell, Charles Taylor, and others, for 2s 6d per acre. It was|scertainly stated that the price was ss, but half of that was given towards making a road through the land. That was a charge which demanded investigation. What answer the Premier give to that charge? While .admitting that the Act had been illegal, he also said they intended to confirm that Act. That transaction was a wanton and wicked was + '° Public estate ; and now when it was desirec? to take the first step towards a full and fair inquiry, they were met by a denial, and all diflrMißnion wan burked. Mr Buck Tar d g?™ the history of the block of land referred to. “6 blocks of conns* catecl land in Waikato eagerly bought up by the people of Auckland,' but no one was found who would touch this inaccessible, and lay there for years. At length, certain capitalists offered to purchase the block at Government price—the price which, had been previously put upon the land when being classified. He was not prepared to whether the Government or the company had the best of the bargain, but he knew that it was perfectly legitimate. He knew that thousands of pounds had been spent in making the road through the swamp, and hundreds of persons had been employed on it, and that the making of that road had been a great boon to the whole district. The Government acted perfectly right in resisting the resolution, because it was as direct a vote of want of confidence in the Government as could pos-

sibly be. Mr Macandrew opposed the leave for the introduction of the Bill. The honorable member for Auckland City West said the Bill was introduced to remedy certain illegal acts ; if there had been any illegal action there were the Courts of Law to appeal to. Mr Montgomery said, as a follower of the member for Auckland City West, that no want of confidence was intended. He merely wanted an inquiry, as the Government were opposed to granting leave, by looking upon it as a vote of want of confidence, he hoped the motion would be withdrawn. - (‘‘JiS'o, no ”) Mr J. K, Brown said it appeared to him that the honorable member leading the Opposition did not understand the nature of the motion ho brought down, and ho was convinced that if the party had been consulted such a motion would not have been made. It was a most dangerous act to cancel and annul contracts and arrangements (made under Orders in Council. The mode proposed by the houorable member who professed to be anxious for an inquiry was a most improper course to obtain it. Why did he not accept the challenge of the

Government to make an Inquiry, especially after the Government offering every access to all papers connected with the case. No, that wouldnot suit him nor his party. He regretted that the Opposilion could not conduct their opposition on more constitutional grounds. Mr Bunny said the discussion had done good, because the matter could not be allowed to rest there. It was due to the Government itself, and the country would expect to have the fullest infromation regarding the whole matter. He hoped the hon. member for Auckland City West would move for a select committee, and that the Government would promise to take no further action in the matter befoie the inquiry •f the committee.

Mr Thomson considered a great deal too much power was placed in the hands of the Government in the way of issuing Orders in Council. While admitting himself a follower of the member for Auckland r ity West, he regretted he had not brought down a motion embodying his views. He did not think the object of the resolution was a vote of want of confidence, because he did not know such a motion was intended. Ho believed the object of the resolution was to prevent any action by the Government to ratify an illegal act, as the Native Minister intimated to the House was intended to he done.

Mr Mervyn said that the chief reason which induced the South Island to sanction the raising of the three million loan, was the hope of what would be realised from confiscated lands, and it was quite right the General Government should retain complete control of these lauds. He was glad to learn that the Government intended placing these lands in luture Under the ordinary laws of the Colony. Without going into those matters raised during discussion, he would say that the motion should be met by a direct negative, and not be allowed to be withdrawn.

Mr Shephard, though generally a Government supporter, would not uphold them guilty of a shameful misuse of public estate. The matter was too grave to rest where it was. the fullest inquiry must be made at the present, position of the case. It was allegations on the one side, and denials on the other. He hoped the discussion would end, and the motion be withdrawn, and that the Government would give an assurance that a full inquiry would be held.

Sir Donald M*Lean announced that it was the intention of the Government to resume the debate at half-past seven, and continue it to the conclusion.

Mr Murray hoped the Government would promise nothing would be done regarding the order.

Mr Rolleston said it would have been a derelection of duty on the part of the House had not so grave a matter been noticed in some more decided manner than by a mere casual expression of opinion; and the member for Selwyn deserved great thanks for having brought the matter forward. He hoped the Government would move for a ; committee of enquiry.

Mr Geo. M*Lean said if "a motion of no confidence was to be brought forward it should bo done in proper form. In its present shape he could ,not countenance it in any way. ,There could be no doubt that a vote of want of confidence was intended, because the speech of the member for Selwyn quite bore out that view. Mr White was proceeding to move an amendment when he was cut short at 5.30, when the House adjourned. On the House resuming at 7.30, Sir Donald M‘Lean moved that the debate on the Abolition Bill be postponed until Sir George Grey’s motion be disposed of. Mr Reid opposed this, saying the question of abolition was more important. Mr Ilolleston opposed the postponement of Sir George Grey’s motion, as it was a question of the administration of Native lands, and was too important to be shelved.

Mr I’itzherbert thought the Government should give some good reason why they proposed to intercept the ordinary business of the House, as such a course was only adopted by Ministers when a vote of want of confidence was under discussion. Such was not the case now, and it was not fair to pervert and torture the words of §iy George Grey’s motion into such a meaning. The question was put and decided on the voices that the debate on Sir George Grey’s jpotion be continued. Mr White moved an amendment that the question be jeferped to the Committee of the whole House, but was ruled by the Speaker to be out of order, Mr White then moved that leave be given to introduce the proposed Bill that day six months. Mr lieid blamed the member for Timaru for making this a party question, Unpleasant rumors, which might be baseless, were attoab respecting the disposal of certain confiscated land, a.qd they should be disposed of and the Government ghogld not have derogate;! from their position by refusing Jpaye tp introduce the Bill Recollecting the strict inquiry made into the sale of certain lands in Otago, he wondered why the same course should not be adopted now. Mr May considered tfrp introduction of the proposed Bill would be tantamount tp g, yoto of want of confidence, and if the Government permitted it they would virtually admit having committed a wrong. He said the block of land referred to had been .open for sals for sgveral years, and that the purchase of the same and formation of a road to it had been of very the great benefit to the district.

Messrs Gibbs and Pyke thought the motion necessarily involved a vote of want of Confidence.

Mr W. Kelly said the land referred to was only of a third-class nature, and there was plenty more of the same kind that he would be glad to see given away to enterprising companies to utilise. Much as had been said about the value of this swamp land he believed it not improbable that purchasers would lose one hundred thousand pounds over it. He would vote against the introduction of the Bill. Sir George Grey, in reply, said if the Government had complied with the resolution of the Legislative Council, that confiscated land should cease to be sold under orders in Council, his motion would not have been introduced. He had been shocked to hear the Native Minister say they intended to legalise an illegal Act by an order in Council. His object would be obtained if the Government gave him an assurance that they would take no step to legalise the sale until due inquiry into the circumstances had been made. Mr Bowen said the Government were prepared to state what they intended to do, but not until the present motion was disposed of. Sir George Grey continued that he had never contemplated bis motion as one of want of confidence, and had not consulted any of his party, and if he was forced to a division he should leave the House. A division was called for, when Sir George Grey and nearly all of the Opposition walked out. The result was :—Ayes, 3; noes, 42. Division list: Noes, Messrs Andrew, Bluett, and Swanson. Ayes, Messrs Atkinson, Ballance, Bowen, J. C. Brown, Bryce, Buckland, Caryingfcon, Creighton, Curtis, Gibbs, Ingles, Jackson. Johnston, Katene, \V. Kelly, T. Kelly, Kenny, Buckie, May, M'Gillivray, M‘Glaslxan, M'Lcr.n, Mervyn, Monro, Ormond, Parata, Parker, Pearce, Pyke, Eeynolds, Eichardson, Kichmond, J. Shepherd, T. L, Shepherd, Stafford, Steward, Tribe, Wales, Webb, Williams, Wilson. Absent members—Messrs Bradshaw, J. B. Brown, Cuthbertson, O’Neill, aud Wakefield, Sir D. M'Lean then announced that the Government would move for a Select Committee

to inquire into tho whole matter, and in the meantime no order in Council in reference thereto would bo issued.

THE ABOLITION DEBATE

was then resumed by Mr T, L. Shepherd, who spoke in support of the Bill. He considered Provincial institutions were now quite usedess ; they were all very well in the early clays when means of communication were vpry difficult, but now —with steamers and telegraph-the country can be easily and much more econo, mically governed from one centre, and he thought the outlying districts would f ire much better when Provincial Governments were abolished. He was sorry Sip Ckvp’gO Grey should allow Opposition members to lake advantage of his “‘honest simplicity ’ by making use of Ids name ami prestige, for it was not under tho banner of Provincialism tlioy ranged themselves, but rather their cry was that t);py were led by Sir G. Grey, He believed the gold duty would have been abolished long ago but for the Provincial Governments, because it was Pro-

vinoial revenue ; but when Provinces are abolished, and the gold duty goes to the consolidated revenue, the question would be treated as one of policy, without reference to Provinces, and it would then bo found that gold mining was an industry to be encouraged, and not exceptionally irxed. Mr Shepherd spoke for about an horn’ to a very thin House. Mr Brandon spoke in favor of Provincial institutions.

Mr Jackson will vote for the Bill in all its stages, and endeavor to get it passed this session.

On the motion of Mr Polleston the debate was adjourned, the House rising at midnight.