THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Evening Star, Issue 3886, 7 August 1875, Page 2

THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

[By Telegraph ]

Wellington, July 6. On Tuesday next, Mr Murray will move to ask Ministers if they will, during the present session, introduce a measure to facilitate the construction of railways by local or private enterprise ; and on Thursday next, that the change in the mode of taxation from measurement to ad valorem, duties having produced such a large increase to the revenue, and as the Government when proposing this change stated that an increase of revenue was neither required nor intended by it, therefore, unless the increasing necessities of the Government require the increasing taxation, this House resolves that,the duties now levied upon unrefined sugar and other articles of common necessity should be reduced. Sir George Grey called the attention of the House to a question of privilege, because the letter which Mr Bowen wrote to the Chief Justice stated Sir George had made a statement to the effect that he, in his place in the House, said the present Chief Justice had on a certain occasion given contrary opinions to that given to the Government on the question of the abolition of the Provinces.

Mr Bowen replied that when he wrote the letter hej bad not the slightest doubt that the honorable member had made that statement, and all on the Government benches understood the words in the same sense, and even on the Opposition benches it was understood in the same way as on it, < The honorable member asked that both opinions should be printed in parallel columns. He did not attach any blame to Sir George, because he supposed that what he was saving was the fact. If ho misunderstood him he was sorry for it. The Speaker ruled that there was no question of privilege before the House. A geod deal of discussion followed as to the propriety of the course taken by the Minister ot Justice in not asking Sir George Grey, before writing to the Chief Justice, whether his words had been correctly understood. Mr J. E. Brown distinctly understood Sir George Grey as the Minister of Justice did. He aid not rely upon a reference to ‘ Hansard,’ because he observed certain statements made by the member for Hutt—namely, his suggestion that the Attorney-General's opinion should be printed in parallel columns—w as not found in ‘Hansard ’ at aIL Mr Luckie wished to move, as there was a difference of opinion as to what Sir George really did say, that the shorthand notes should be referred to. * Hansard ’ reports could not always be relied upon as to literal correctness. Members sometimes altered speeches. The Speaker ruled that such a motion could not be put. The honorable member for Auckland City West explained he did not use the expressions imputed to him, and that was sufficient. Mr Fitzherhert explained that ho did not erase what was absent in his speech in ‘ Hansard.’ The subject then dropped. Mr Reeves asked whether in accordance with the provisions of an Act passed last year for the establishment of state forests, a sum of L 7.500 had been set aside as a special fund for that purpose. He could find no trace of such an item. The honorable gentleman then proceeded to dilate upon the advantages which the Colonial Treasurer last year pointed out would flow from such a fund. Major Atkinson said the Act had never come into operation, and no'» M inister had been appointed to carry out the provisions of the Act, and therefore the Treasury had not been called upon to make these payments. Mr Beeves moved—-“To ask the Native Minister whether, in accordance with the views expressed in his Excellency’s speech at the close of last session, the Government have taken any steps to promote commercial intercourse with, or to acquire dominion of Polynesia.” The honorable gentleman referred to what had been done regarding this subject last session.

Sir Donald M'Lean said the Government had not given any further consideration regarding commercial intercourse with Polynesia, though they were fully alive to the importance of the subject. Mr Reeves moved to ask the Minister for Native Affairs whether it is the intention of the Government to utilise the services cf Sir J. Vogel during his sojourn at the German baths, to obtain the services of veiderers, or other qualified professionals to instruct the people of the Colony in the art of conserving and planting forests. jdir Donald M'Lean said ho felt his hon. friend and the House would agree that wherever Sir Julius Vogel was he would be found devoting his best services to further the interests of the Colony. He had that day laid papers on the table stating what tjir Julius Vogel had already done respecting the conservation of forests.

Mr O’Neill asked the Commissioner of Custom* whether he will lay on the table of the House a report and any_ correspondence there may be in connection with the naval training school at Eohimarama. Mr Reynolds said a moat encouraging report had been received, and he woul4 lay that and all other papers relating to the school upon the table. The following Bills were introduced and read a first time A Bill to amend the OUgo Waste Land Acs, 1872; a Bill to amend the Westland Waste Land Act; a Bill to authorise the Corporation of Palmerston to construct Waterworks. Sir Donald M‘Lean moved the second reading of the Hawke’s Bay Volunteer Grants Bill. He said these men had done valuable service to the Colony in keeping in check the rebel Natives, and fully deserved these grants out of the confiscated land on the East Coast. Mr Buckland said there were many persons in Auckland who had rendered gallant services in defence of the Colony, who had never received a sixpence for their services. He hoped the Government would take some ste )S to obtain for t hose meat the compensation they so well deserved. Sir Donald M'Lean said the Government had taken some steps in the matter, though he was not pre ared to announce any definite results had been arrived at. Mr Murray opposed the system of Volunteer land grants altogether. Mr W. Kelly said there were many persons in his district entitled to land, and he hoped they would be allowed to take that land oat of the confiscated land.

Mr Sheehan objected to the system tm a use* Urt dfaripatton <n public estate, sad a Bar tb

bond jUbs settlement, while it unduly led to land sharping. He would BOt object to rewarding services of the kind referred to, but let the reward be in money, and if they wanted land they could buy it. . Hr Ormond said the services rtndeicd by this able bafld of men were something extraordinary, and they Welt deserved the land proposed to be given to them. Mr Eatene agreed with the member for Rodney that these Volunteers should be paid in motley. If you gave them land you gave it also to the Maoris who (ought) on the Govern* ment side. They did more service than the white Volunteers. Parting with the land in this way only led to trouble. Mr Carrington said as he understood it, thl# land had been previously promised—that promise ought to Be fulfilled } bntlhe entirely objected to the system of rewards in grants of land. Mr Macandrew said the experience of Otkg<f showed the unwisdom of granting land topers sons who were not compelled to beneficially occupy it. Several other members expressed opinion# against the practice of rewarning by grants of land as a Waste of the public estate, and retardation of settlement. Mr Wales defended the Volunteers as fully deserving ef being rewarded either by land or money, as was meat convenient te the Government of the day. It would be monstrous to give these men forty acres and expect them to drag out a miserable existence upon it. Sir Donald M'Lean asked that the Bill bo read a second time. The Government would then consider the suggestions of hon. members that these men should be rewarded in money. The Government were anxious for a Utile time to consider as to the best means of carrying out the suggestions of hon. members. There was no doubt some of the men would prefer being rewarded in money, others in land, and it swmed reasonable they should be allowed their choice. The Bill was read a second time.

Mr Richardson .moved the second reading of the Inspection of Machinery Act Amendment Act, which introduce several improvements on the original Act regarding holding inquiries on boilers, and inspection and fees regulating steam pressure, &o fhe Bill was reM a second time

Sir Donald M'Lean moved the second reading of the Ford and Others Pension Bill.

Mr G. MM/oan objected strongly to these pensions of the Native Minister. If these persons had a good claim upon the Colony let mm put a certain sum upon the Estimates, and if urmn investigation the claim was found good the hon. gentlemen would have his support. Let him get a good sum of money to buy an annuity for those persons, but give aq pensions. Mr T Kelly, though generally opposed to granting pensions, said ha was not in this particular case. Mr Sheehan supported the Bill, which for the children of those who sacrificed v their lives in the defence of the Colony. The Bill was read a second time. A was read from the Governor t> acknowledging the receipt of an address from the House ot Representatives requesting he would cause to he laid on the table a copy of any despatch sent to the Secretary of State for the Colonies in reference to the opinion of the Attorney-General regarding the question of abolition. The Governor informed the House that_ he had written no despatch on oither the Bill or the subject. The House adjourned at 5.30.

THE ABOLITION DEBATE. On the House resuming at 7.30, the Colonial Treasurer rose, amid applause, to move the second reading of the Abolition Bill. He said they might, had they so chosen, have brought down a Bill repealing the Constitution Act, or rather, its second clause, that would have met the case sufficiently, but if the House, even now, wished that done, the Government would do so, in order to set all doubt at rest j but he felt he could appeal to the common sen'-e of the House. It would be acting perfectly legal in the abolition of any particular Province, or ff they abolished the different Provinces in the North Island. If they could do that, and no one could say they could not, what was to prevent their abolishing collectively what they could do individually and separately? They had, as a general controlling authority, full power to alter their own • 'onstitution whenever they thought fit to do so. It was in the very fitness ot things, and according to common sense and equity, that the Assembly should possess that power. 'Why, when they intro - ducod the New Provinces Act, croakers said, “ You have not the powerbut they did it, and the Imperial Parliament backed them up. When they made other Constitutional changes croakers again cried out, “ You have not the power, and dare not make those changesbut again the Imperial Parliament carried out their wishes without a single alteration. This was a question far above all mere technicalities. It was a necessary and constitutional course, and it was the interpretation of the Constitution Act ho had always taken, and would take so long as he was in that House. Then, coming to what they proposed to do by this Bill, on that he could be very brief. They simply proposed to give the people read, local selfgovernment in the fullest sense of the word —(Loud applause and derisive laughter from the Opposition}. The hon. gentleman then proceeded to comment on clause 6, to explain why the Government left certain questions open for further consideration during the recess, so that they might be able to submit next session certain measures in relation to matters in that clause which wero now left in statu quo. Regarding clause 8, it was considered necessary they should reserve power to delegate subordinate powers, and that they should have power over local taxation, and all such taxation was handed over to them. Clause 15 relates to goldfields, and here the same principle was recognised, and goldfields members generally admitted the fairness of their provisions. Clause 19. related to Read Boards, and made an important provision. He saw by the Opposition organs that they bad stated Government would not be able to carry out these provisions and make substantial endowments, but if ever they came to the discussion of the finances of the Colony, which did not seem very likely at present, but if ever they did come to that, he held the Government had no doubt whatever that all the promisee made in the Financial Statement would be easily fulfilled. The Bill would also provide for gaolsj, police, lunatic asylums, and charitable institutions. They had been taken to task about the manner in which the Bill had been introduced, but he wee not aware of any constitutional law for preventing the Crown from relieving the people from disagreeable liabilities and farm disagreeable duties of servants.— (Hear, hear.) It would at once set free some thirty or forty very hard-working public eorvants, and also free some 100 or niore gentlemen who must every year come down to meet their Provincial Councils to vote away the money of the people. If the House could complain of anything, it surely ought not to complain and assert that the Government should not bring down a Bill like that—a Bill which amply supplied in most oases, and paved the way in others, for what the people had been wanting for years. It bad also been alleged that the Bill had not been brought down in the form it should. It was said to haw a two - fold nature—to take away, on one hand, and to ;five and provide for with the other. But, ha could assure the House, Government had brought all their knowledge of nubile affairs to bear in framing the Bill, and if they failed through inexperience, they must abide the remit. As for the reasons for bringing down the Bill last session, a resolution was passed by the Bouse that a Bill should be brought down to ibolish the Provinces, and the more they coniidemi the case, the more they became convinced that nothing but a thorough measure sould satisfy the public, and ns a sort of reply o what had been said in defence of Provincial Councils for their usefulness, and in the way of ocid government, the administration of local ffairs, and the promotion of settlement, But, le would ask, what good had Provincial Coanils done for the country of late years that toad Boards and the General Government ould not have done, and have done mere fficiently as well as more economically.—(Hear, oar.) No doubt there was a time when Proinoial Councils performed very useful funelone. In the early days they might have srred a good purpose t eat in the last few flwy dtortofcft few to perform then

functions, and immigration ceased and stagnation prevailed. Until, in 1870, the House by general acclamation placed the control of these works in the hands of the General Government, he could say, from all their experience in these matters, that Provincial Governments had never shown that they could perform those functions which they maintrined pertained to them particularly, so well as the General Government and Road Boards could. If Provincial Governments wanted to promote education or lotfk after harbors, they had always to depute the work to some one else in the shape of Education Boards and Harbor Boards, and if they were tolerably well maifcged, he saw in it an argument in favor of one central administration. This branch, that is, Provincial Governments, possessed two functions, legislative and administrative, and it was agreed on all hands that the legislative functions should cease. —(Loud cries of “ No, no,” and “ Yes, yes.”) Bui the hon. member reiterated again and again, in spite of interruptions, that it was admitted on all hands, both by the House and the country, that the legislative functions of the Provinces should cease. The only functions Provincial Governments performed well was the getting money out of the Assembly. It was a sound principle of political that the power which imposed and raised trio taxes should spend the money and be the respotißibio but that was the way Provineial legislation (bond ones of “No, no.") Provincial Coamcilfl^ 18 * 1 mo ?«y from the people in various ways, and gp*”® “ as they liked without giving the General Government any account of it, except as a matter of history. It, therefore, was desirable this state of things should continue no longer.—(“ No.”) The voices of the country and the House were unmistakeably against it. —(Hear, hear.) Referring to the system of organised Provincial pressure which was yearly brought to bear against the Government of the Colony in maintaining and perpetuating these local interests that were antagonistic]* in general to the interests of the Colony, he maintained that the voice of the country was decidedly against allowing the possibility of so unfair and selfish a pressure to be allowed to continue any longer. From his experience of Parliamentary life, he was not led away by the belief that any scheme of legislation which might be devised would be enough to do away with such pressure entirely. To do so would be a Utopian idea altogether. Indeed the peculiar circumstances of his case reminded him very strongly of a passage in an essay that was called “ Pig Philosophy,” which no doubt honorable members were as well acquainted with as he was. It was to this effect: What is pig philosophy ? _ It was this, What is justice ? It is, in the general swinehood sense of the term, in getting, on the whole, as much out of the swine-trough as can be got without being hanged or sent to the gallows. Now he was sure the House would agree with him that the Colony wauld be benefited by the sweeping away from New Zealand of those centres of sympathy, those nine sturdy mendicants, regarding which the member for the 1J utt used to speak of with some asperity before he joined the ranks There was no doubt that their credit would be largely increased by papering this Bill. Their administration, also, would be cheapened, and the country would secure the services of many able and honest gentlemen as soon as they were released from the trammels which now bound them to Provincialism, in some cases through self-interest, in others to old associations. They were told that this Act took away the liberties of the people; but he wondered how the member for Auckland City West could have got such an-Jopinion : as, though he held—speaking in the broad sense—that every man in New Zealand was fully represented in the present Parliament; of course he must be understood not to be taking into account at the present moment coitaiu inequalities in the representation of the Colony. He held that by this Bill very many in mow Zealand would be still better represented than tney were before. They were also told that the Bill should be referred to the electors before being by the Assembly ; but he could confidently ask the House had the Bill not been already referred to the electors, and had they not already decided in its favor from one end of the country to another. —(Cries of “ No, no,” and Yes, yes.”) The question Had been before the country since last session before the recess. The country had long enough bean aware that a great change in the Constitution was proposed, and the general response was that they heartily acquiesced in it.- -(‘ ‘ No, no,” and “ Hear, hear.”) The party to which he had had the honor to belong for the last twenty years always consistently strove for the virtual, principle of this Bill. He only regretted that the hon, gentleman who was the recognised champion of this principle had not tie duty of moving the second reading of the Bill, and thus completing the scheme with which his name had been identified for so many years. In conclusion, he need only say that the principle —and it pervaded the Bill from one end to the other—was the unity and oneness of the Colony, and the only principle consistent with true local self-government, and that was what tils Bill provided. It was idle for them to talk of this as a new question ; the question was one which had been before the country for a very long time, and had been discussed in every highway aad bye-way, and in every paper in the Coldny. As a matter of fact, the question had been virtually decided by the country for the last five years. It was useless for him to detain the House much longer, and he would conclude by moving the second reading of the Bill.—(Loud applause from Government supporters). Sir George Grey moved the adjournment of the debate to Tuesday next. Sir Donald M'Lean said the Government had no objection, but hoped when the debate was resumed on Tuesday, it would be continued to the conclusion, without any more adjournments.

The debate was then adjourned to Tuesday evening, at half-past seven.

The House then went [into Committee on the Immigration Expedditurc Indemnity Bill. Mr Bunny moved that the report be withdrawn, and the passing of the Bill postponed till the final report was received. Mr Kolleston said, before the Bill passed, the Committee would say, as it appeared the Government could order the Board of Audit to break a law, what was k the use of such a Board. Better sweep them away at the same time as the Provinces. «Surely some other expedient might have been formed to tide over the difficulty rather than do an illegal act, Mr Reid recommended the withdrawal of Mr Bunny’s amendment, and thought that year by year the House was losing control over expenditure.

Mr Pearce supported the Government, and thought they (the < >'overnment) had. under unforeseen and critical circumstances, taken the wisest course. There were open to them —lirst to stop immigration ; second, to calf the House together at an inconvenient period ; third, to* break thelaw—and this the Government fairly told the House they had done, and now came for a vote condemning their act. S>r hj. 1). Loll asked the committee to withhold judgment until the final report of the Finance Con mittce was before them. Mr M'Glashan thinks this is just the time to discuss the state of tho public The present law system of audit and control is a delusion and perfectly inoperative ns regards payments made on London, Mr Shephard (Nelson) considered the Government were justified in the course they had taken Mr Bowen, re Mr Kolleston’s remarks, paid that the Government were obliged to take responsibility in certain urgent cases. Surely it • was more pioper to go to the Audit Board and tell them of the steps they were obliged to take to meet the emergency. _ This he thought, was better than making a private arrangement with the bank, as he understood Mr Rolhston had suggested. Perhaps that was a Provincial babit. He had heard of some Provinces bavin? number two account.

Ir , Atkinson be alone was responsible for this act of the Government. The cir • enmstances of the case were these The Board of Audit sent a memo, saying the money was not available, whereupon he (the Treasurer) wrote and told them he was vein to break the law and instructed his subordinate in the Treasury afto carry this out. The Government courted the fullest inquiry, but asked the House wait tdl information and the report of the Public Accounts Committee wore before them. Mr Sheehan said the verdict of the House and the country would be “Government Guilty, but under extenuating circumstances,”

The Bill was reported to the House without amendments, and read a third time and passed. The House in Committee on the Otago University Site Exchange Bill (Order No. 17) reported without amendments. It was read a third time and passed. Mr asked if the Government on Tuesday intend going into supply before the debate on the Abolition Bill. The Opposition (although anxious to go into finance) wished to have a full report of the Finance Committee, and other information, before debating that subject The financial proposals of the Government might be likened to some beautiful image which they were called upon to worship. But they objected to have first, perhaps, the grace of the head to admire, the exquisite symmetry of an arm, the fair proportions of bust, the guilding and ornamental of the dress ; rather they would admire and criticise (perchanee) one captivating and harmonious whole He hoped, therefore, the Government would not go on with the Committee of Supply until the abolition debate was finished. Major Atkinson, on the part of the Government, had no objection to state that the Government would propose to go on with the debate on the Abolition Bill, but it must be understood that after Tuesday the Government must go on with the regular business of the House.

In reply to Mr Reeves, the Native Minister said he would make his statement on Native affairs on Wednesday next; Major AfUncon said he would make his on emigration oB Tuesday or Wednesday; and Mr Reynolds his on the Marine Department on Tuesday. The House then adjourned.