WELLINGTON.

Evening Star, Issue 3574, 6 August 1874, Page 2

WELLINGTON.

[By Telegraph.]

(From our own Correspondent.)

August 5. Mr W. Kelly, yesterday, asked whether the Government intended to educate the sous of Native chiefs, as indicated by his Excellency in his address at the Auckland Grammar SchooJ.—Mr M‘Lean said the Government intended to take every mesons for the education of the whole Native When bis Excellency made that remark, he was unaware there waa an excellent boarding school in Auckland, where the sons of chiefs were educated.

Mr Murray moved for a return of the Civil Service officers who bad resigned during the past year.—Agreed to. Mr Fitv.herbert moved that the House consider the report of the Speaker on the Manawatu-Kangitikei claim—-with a view of carrying out the recommendation of the Commissioner, and placing a sum upon the Supplementary Estimates to meet what must be considered an equitable claim—on Tuesday.

Mr Murray moved for a return of the number and amount of the Port Chalmers Kail way debentures taken overby the Colony, together with yearly charge for interest on those outstanding.—Agreed to. Mr T. B, Gillies moved for a return showing the respective amounts of all loans authorised by the Legislature, and the respective amounts raised under them.—Agreed to. Adjourned debate regarding the working of the Native Lands Act, 1873.—Mr'T. B, Gillies said be had seen the proposed Amending Act, but could see that it failed to remedy the defects complained of in the old Act. They could not possibly be expected to frame a suitable Act without availing themselves of all the information obtainable ; above all of the valuable suggestions of the Judges who knew most about the matter. Messrs Eolles ton and Williamson concurred in the views of the preceding member.—Mr M*Lean said a great deal of misapprehension existed regarding the Apt, It had not been shown to be unworkable. It had never, in fact, been tried, and the only real hostility to the Act proceeded from interested Europeans. But he had no objection to lay before the com* mittee all papers and information the Government possessed. In the Legislative Council, Mr Mantell moved that copies of all communications received by the Government from Judges of the Native Lands Court, expressing a favorable opinion upon the provisions and operation of the Native Lands Act, 1873, be laid on the table,—Carried,

Mr Waterhouse moved that the Rea Estate Descent Bill be referred to a com mittee of the whole Council on Thursday.— Carried.

Dr Po'len moved for leave to bring in a Bill to Amend the Oyster Fisheries Act, 1866. —Carried

The Goldfields Act, 1866, Amendment Bill —second reading carried. Provincial Fencing Laws Empowering Bill —second reading carried. Presbyterian Church of Otago Lands Act Amendment Bill—second reading carried. ( ! n the motion for 'he second reading of theClutha Reserve Bill, the Premier said the Bill deserved the sympathy of the House, and l.e hoped this long-pending question would be settled this session ; but he was not prepared to express an opini m that the whole amount of land mentioned would be reserved. He thought it better to accept the second reading now, and postpone the third reading of the Bill till next week, to enable them to consult with the Provincial Government on the matter, —Mr J. L, Gillies gave additional testimony to the necessity for the Bill. Read a second time.

At the evening sitting, Mr Reid failed to see what bearing Provincialism had upon the conservation and planting of forests. He deprecated the utterances of the hon. members for Timaru and NeLon upon that point. The representatives of Provinces were really more the representatives of the people than those who were only their representatives in the House. He considered the time had arrived for taking steps towards the conservation, and the Government deserved their thanks for introducing the question ; but he condemned the details of the scheme. He doubted the correctness of the statistics regarding the decrease and waste of timber. If there had been a waste in the early davs, it was no longer the case The Otago forests were now cared for as well as they could be under the General Government. He could recommend a much simpler and better plan than that proposed. They should let the exclusive right of cutting the forests in each district to some individual or company, binding them oyer to supply firewood at a specified rate, and to clear off waste timber and plant new forest trees. The reason we had to go abroad for sleepers was owing to. the high rate of labor ami the inaccessibility of meat of the suitable timber, lie agreed with the object of the Government, but held that they ought to acquire data as to proper localities to make plantations. On the score of economy, the Provincial authorities should have the management. In the hands of the General Government, the cost would be extravagant. The measure would undoubtedly produce a great good, but there was no immediate hurry necessary. He hoped the Bill would be withdrawn. It would be too much to pas : such a gigantic measure in a short session.— Mr Vogel replied. He spoke for two hours and it was one of the most brilliant and effective speeches delivered for some time. He commenced by criticising the various speeches, dealing severely with Mr Sheehan and Mr Johnson, and coming down with crushing force on Messrs Bunny and Fitzherbert. He taunted Mr J. fj. Gillies with desiring to bring science to the aid of bushrangers, and then went on to refer to Mr Fitzherbert’s objection to the extent cf land asked for by the Bill. No doubt it had been carefully calculated by the member for the Hutt, and amounted to about two milliou acres. Otago in the brief space of six weeks, about two years ago, appropriated for a variety of purposes an extent of country larger than was asked for state forests for New Zealand. The hon. member for the Hutt noted that the Bill was an insidious attempt to obtain 216,000 acres of the best land.in Welling ton, but that member appeared so accustomed to ways thSfrlCWrdark and tricks that are vain, that without apology he took it for granted the Government were actuated by motives like his own, and assumed that the Bill was not what it purported to le, but was intended to deceive the House and

the country. The proposal of the Bill was not to take within Wellington or any other Province any lajid that had been acquired or. of exceptional value, but merely land suitable for state forests ; and in respect to the desire of the Government to rob the Provinces of their heritage, the Government did not want to take one acre that had not been purchased by the Colony, and made over as a free gift to the Provinces daring the last three years. It was not very difficult to trace that the opposition of the member for the Hutt proceeded from the very principle that the duty of the present Government was to restrain him in the exercise of his Provincial powers. The policy of the Superintendent and Provincial Secretary of Wellington was to do their best to got the Province into financial difficulties, and then come t? the Assembly for assistance. There was no possible excuse for Wellington being in difficulties, except they restrained the power of expenditure without reference to payments. Only three years since the Colony discharged all the dobtg of the Province, paid off the Bank overdraft and liabilities arising from Provincial appropriation of the funds of savings banks depositors, through not keeping separate accounts, and paid off the liability in respect to small farms never charge! In addition to these the Colony paid off arrears on surveys, and paid half the survey staff for a considerable time afterwards. There had been no failure of revenue to account for the Province getting into such difficulties. In JS?I the landed revenue was L 14,400 ; ip 1872, L 16.000; in 1873, L 51,000 j and the revenue from ordinary sources was—iu L30,0(10. With this increase of revenue, what excuse was there for complaining cf the cruelty of the General Government and the Colony ? It was the duty of the Provincial Governments to carry on their works in proportion to their means ; but if the policy wag to be recognised that, no matter what is their position,' the fP.eang of the Provinces are to be exhausted, they would simply haye a repetition of the policy ®f the Colony with Wellington. If they were tbps going to deal with the Provinces like Wellington with increasing revenues, it would be very much less trouble for the Colonial Government to take the whole charge, rather than have to look after the matter in this way.— (Cheers.) He would like to apply a metaphor to the Superintendent of Wellington. There was a tree, a most valuable and useful tree, not sightly or savory, but with peculiar properties. No other tree could grow near it, it was so ravenous and ferocious. This was the blue gum. The member for the Hutt was par excellence the blue gum' of New Zealand.—(Loud laughter.) * here was a small tree alongside him * bich was represented by the member for Wairarapa. To the conduct of the Provincial Government of Wellington during the recess and the speech of the member for the Halt, might be attributed any consequence that might arise in an opposite direction to what that hon. member advocated Since they were put In the Government would have to consider Wellington and the North Island as a whole, to see whether it was not possible the Government might be more relieved by being directly responsible “if 8 00( i Government of the Provinces that they were indirectly responsible for as now.—(Cheers.) He held in bis hand a statement showing the expenditure ’of the General Government on the Province of Wellington, from 1869.t0 1874. Hon. members would be startled to know the total expenditure by the Colony, or by means provided by it through loans, was L 770,939.

As the return of the revenue of Wellington was only made up for three years, he would compare those three years. Daring these three years the Colony spent in Wellington 1-623,000. as against L 156.000 contributed by the Province. The peace of mind of members of the General Government had also to be considered, for he could not eon* ceive a more disagreeable position than living in a city where the lesser Government makes its business to do all it possibly can to teach every man, woman, and child in the place that the Uo.ony waa their natural enemy. He knew of a case where towards some small sum about L 5 or LlO was asked from the Provincial Govern* ment, and the reply was, “ Really we have no doubt about your claim, but Mr Vogel is doing all he can to make the Province bankrupt, and we mast be just before we are generous.”—(Laughter.) If he were to ;■ ave the extra duties to perform, he had better do them, but he would rather be a constable than a detective. He would rather know what duties he bad to perform than be constantly under a sense of painfulness about what was taking place around him. After what had been done for Wel-

lington, it was shameful ingratitude on the part of the Superintendent of Wellington to come down and make such charges against the General Government and the Colony, which had done so much to advance the interest of the Province. Let them look at these things. He had the statement of expenditure on immigration. Up to 30th June last, L 162,000 had been spent, of which Wellington obtained about L 79.000. 1.5,573,000 was altogether voted tor railway purposes, of which Wellington, with about one-tenth of the revenue and one tenth of the population of the Colony, bad already been voted L644.0Q0 for railways ; besides which, the Government asked Ll 12,000, and L 300,000 more was required to complete the gaps in the meantime. That was the manner in which the Colony was assisting this poor Province that all were so inclined to sit upon. This was the Pro? vince the House was asked to shed tears over, and the condition of which the member for the Hutt pathetically described. Then, on the North Island roads, up to Jane last, had been expended L 3.683,000, of which LIIB.GOO was spent in Wellington. This was not Provincialism, as understood in o.her Provinces in the Middle island. With Armed Constabulary in Auckland, that Province was looking to the Assembly for help for education. What Remains to be done by the Colony which it would not do as well as the Provinces? That was the reflection

forced upon them, as it was by the Provinces these complaints were made.' Taking the •orfch Island question altogether, he found the Colonial allowance for Provincial purposes. The expenditure in the North Island by the Colony for the five years ended June last was L 3.389 000, and during the past three years 1.2,387,000 ; while the total revenue raised by the Provinces in the island during that time was 1A, 480,000. If these iigurta were not suggestive, he would be very much surprised. At any rate, they were eminently so to his mind. When he was told the establishment of State forests in the North Island was inconsistent with the maintenance of Provincialism in the island, it seemed to him the answer would be* abolish the Provinces.—(Loud “hear, hears.”) Che country suffered very much from three disturbing cause*, and the sooner they were settled by an Aot the better! One yrafi

separation ; another the seat of Govern'ment ; and the third the compact of 1856. It was necessary it should be clearly understood* that the compact of 1856 was one which under no circumstances could the Colony honorably depart from- (cheers) —and the sooner it was ratified by Act and not left to depend upon mere resolution the better. The separation question was a chimera : there was no prospect of separation m our time or by our aid.—(Hekr.) He stated now, as ho had not been afraid to state in Auckland, that he looked upon the seat of Government as 'Settled. There was no remote or possible contingency of the matter being re-opeucd, nor did he think the Colony desired to have the seat of Government removed from Wellington. As to the question raised as to the expends of managing t'wp millions of acres, the Government did not propose to select lands all of a superior class, but did expect to obtain some land which would yield revenue. It was absurd that they should not receive assistance from the land fund. Every institution in the Colony received endowments of laud; why should the Colony be outlawed from the Provinces and receive no such assistance! He denied that New Zealand was not exk,ke climatical influences which affected other lands. Three per cent, of the forest country would not interfere with the efforts of private enterprise. He did not desire to prolong the session, but did not disguise that he wished to see the

House committed to the principles of the bill, and to that end he would be content to pass the Bill with the provisions as to land lefbout. He would accept the Bill, as much like the play of “ Hamlet ” with the part of i 08 ou k Ik was proposed to reduce the Bill to twelve clauses, leaving out the amount of land to be taken up to the determination of the Assembly, and to invite the Provincial Governments to take up specific forests as State forests. They did this to give the Provinces an opportunity of showing what they would do on their own behalf. He did not hesitate te say that if the Provinces failed te provide State forests it would be the duty of the Coleny to insist upon the acquisition of them. The power of (destruction was more powerful that! the power of construction, and the public works now in progress would be a curse rather than a blessing, if no provision were made for future forests. The question, he repeated, was the question oc questions. Mr Vogel resumed h,s seat amid loud cheers The -ew Zealand University Bill was reported with amendments.

'1 he Merchant Shipping Acta Adoption Bill passed. *

_ The second reading of the Harbor Works Bill was moved by Mr Biohardson.—Mr Macaudrew opposed it, as taking away the powers exercised by Provinces for the last 20 years. It would be better, if this was the kind of legislation intended, to throw off all disguise and sweep away the Provinces altogether. Mr Skeehan mored the adjournment of the debate.—Mr T. B. Gillies suggested that the lull ba taken back altogether.— Debate adjourned. k c y. no lda moved the seeoud reading of ■~f. a T al Training Schools Establishment Bill, and explained the provisions. The inteutiou was to provide seamen, which the rapid.y-increasing commerce rendered imperatively necessary, and thus place jibe Colony independant of thp Home Country. .4py boys, having no visible means of subsistence, found begging, to be placed in the Training School, should too many boys come forward” the Government to have power to suspend the Act from time to time.—Mr Gillies suppotted the Bill as very suitable, and exceedingly well drawn ont.

The House adjourned at 10.20. In both Houses to-day, select committees wore appointed to inquire into a breach of privilege committed by the • Evening Tribune in printing from an Auckland haper, purporting to give exidence given by Ward btfore the Ward-Chapman committee. Mr Tribe asked why not wait and proceed against the paper in which the telegram hrst appeared?— 1 he Speaker said it was immaterial which paper it appeared in nrst; they proceeded against that m which the Mouse hist saw it.

Mr T. L. Shepherd moved the second reading of the Goldfields Act, 1866, Amendment Bill. To show the importance of the mining interest in the Colony, the hon. member quoted figures to the effect that the to al value of waterraces, tail-races, dams, and mining machinery in the Colony amounted to 11,663,181. He wished to place it nut of the power of p.ny individual to arrest such an important industry in stopping tail-race water from flowing over his land, and instanced a case in poi;->t, a case now pending between a squatter and a miner at M aerewhenua. It was an industry which sup ported more men and was of more value than all the rest of the Colony, and deserved J? or ® ® ons id e rati o «. The second clause of *|| e , “1 K've miners the right to get rid of ttieir tail-race water by fouling streams.— The Premier could not possibly aeree with the second clause, which was dealing with the question now before the Law Courts. He would not object to the second reading if the hon. member would withdraw for the present the second clause.—Mr Shepherd declined, in the interests of the Goldfields and the Colony. This was the battle to he fought, and were they to arrest an industry which had exported L2B 0(10,0C0 during the last ten years, because some squatter wanted to dip a few sheep ? He would divide, if he stood alone.—Bead a second time, and referred to Goldfields Committee. If th-i Council is not obstructive there is a chance rf the Reserves question being definitely settled this session.

On the second reading of the Clntha Trust Bill, Mr Vogel said as much as that arrangements had been come to by which 500 000 acres will he accepted for educational purposes. The 2,000 acres proposed f-r the Clntha Trust was among the reserves proposed, hut was cancelled, and therefore came up for separate treatment. While it was against the spirit and intention of the law to sanction enormous tracts being remeved from the operation of ordinary law by being reserved, yet there could be no objection to reasonable reserves. He hoped after the proposed adjustment the Provincial autho. rities would respeet the hw and have a clear understanding of the extent which the reserving power of the Provinces was exercising.

Mr Vogel opposed the second reading of Mr Shepherd’s Poll a tin" Streams Bill, because it was one which the House could sot possibly agree to. Mr Shepherd expressed his determination to divide the House, but there was no necessity, as the reading passed. The Government will defeat the second clause, though all the West Coast and Otago mining members will support it. Strong lobbying is going on to form a party to carry out the abolition of the North Island Provinces ; Mr Thomas Bussell has been particularly busy. If the Government do not act Mr Wood will immediately bring down his resolutions.

August 6. There was warm work over the Wellington Land Payments Bill last night. Qu the committal of the Bill, Mr Vogel suggested there should be a limit on the quantity of land for the Government payment for public works in any one year. Mr Bunny asked why the same thing had not been done in the case of Marlborough, whose Bill passed without objection the other day. Mr Vogel replied that he had invited Mr Bunny himself to name a reasonable limit, and did not want the public works constructed at such a sacrifice as was evidently done under the Bill. This brought a hornet’s nest around Mr Vogel. One Wellington member after another got up and protested against the favoritism showing; and Mr Pearce commented < n the extraordinary difference of the treatment of the Provinces by the Premier. Mr Vogel replied that the cases of Taranaki and Wellington were not analogous He repeuted any intention of dealing unfairly with any Province, and would be sorry if the remarks of Tuesday led to such an impression ; but felt no sorrow at having sta'ed in the House his opinions on that subject. Mr Fitzherbert said the charges by - the Premier against Wellington were repugnant in fact and truth, as he well knew the Premier was endeavoring to make fish of one and flash of Another Province, yet hp prided himself before the-H6use and the ' country, as hj iding the scales equally between the Provinces. He told Mr Vogel to bis face the reason why the Taranaki Bill was passed without objection was because the votes of that Province were safe, whde those of Wellington were not in his favor, and he (Mr Fitzherbert)

was proud to think so. Why should Wellington be persecuted and sat upon?—Mr Vogel retorted by saying that if Mr Fitzherbert had been in his place on Tuesday, he would have said more of him, and perhaps what would be more distasteful than he bad saidJ The Marlborough Bill escaped the attention of the Government, because it had been submitted to the Waste Land Committee, ahd is such cases the Government rarely interfered. This Bill came up separately, hence the discovery that it would iptercept the hfarlbopopgh Bjll before it was passed, 'and hie would propose a similar amendment. As to the insinuation that the Government desired to secure Taranaki votes, he treated such an imputation with the scorn and contempt it deserved. If the Government desired to purchase such votes they need not have travelled very far, for it was

certain that votes had been in the market on very low terms. Mr Fitzherhert’s career was changed from one side to the other. There was no necessity for the Government going to one of the smallest Provinces to purchase popularity. Mr Fitzherbert was much better versed in the subject thanhe was. It was certain that men were not amenable po thp charge pf b&4 bepanse they dwelt in a certain groove so long as to be nnable to see in the same light as others Never had the Government less necessity for purchasing votes as at present. Never was the House less disposed to allow anything of the kind; for if it was attempted to purchase one Province, the Government would probably lose three. Mr Fitzherbert charged Mr Vogel with making a coalesce Sersonal attack. Be ridiculed the idea of Ir Vogel preaching prudence, and wound up a writhing speech by quoting Mr Vogel. “I venture to predict that your schemes will come to a speedier failure than you imagine, and, as no one knows better than you, they are hurrying the Colony to rum.” He continued by saying that there was not a little truth in Mr Vogel’s financial statements. Mr Vogel relied on the Houso to judge between himself and Mr Fitzherbert. He certainly had not been before the public so long as Mr Fitzherbert, hut he could safely appeal to the House to say whether he ever made a statement showing an intention or desire to deceive, hut jjnly such as he believed to be trpe, • . Members reading the correspondence bn the table, and the ingenious answer of Mr Fitzherbert with regard to the Provincial auditorship of Wellington, could judge between them. Mr Fitzherbert replied that Mr Vogel, in calmer moments, ought to be ashamed of that correspondence, and for the third time denied th at there was any truth in thePremier’s figures regarding Wellington, or the deductions sought to be drawn from them, MrLuckie wanted to read the Judge’s opinion on the Wellington auditorship. but the House was evidently sick of personality, and immediately reported progress. The Wellington party will insist on the Bill as it stands, and there promises to he a fierce fight. Mr Vogel is blamed for losing his temper, but he had great provocation. The * Times’ this morning Kays that if there must

be war let it he at once. Mr Fiteherhert should take warning that Mr Yogel is quite aware of two facts : that he has a majority now, and that majorities sometimes give in in a remarkable manner for no apparent reason.

Mr Gillies and Mr M'Leaa had a minor passage at arms over the Auckland Land Bill, the former charging Mr M*Lean with recently rquauderiug money. The Otago Land Act and University Bill passed.

The Highway Boards Amendment and the Registration of Births Amendment Bills were discharged.

August 6 There is great excitement in political circles, owing to the announcement that Ministers intend to push the ab lition of the Northern Provinces. Centralists and Provincialists are arranging for battle; Mr Reader Wood acting as lieutenant for the former, Mr Fitzberbert and Mr Macandrew for the latter. The Otago members are in caucus. The Ministry, if defeated or left with a bare majority, will dissolve ; at any rate, there is no chance now of a short session.

The Otago caucus did nothing definitely. There is a diversity of opinion as, to the intention of the Government. Mr Macandrew urges that if the proposition is carried it ultimately means the absorption of the Middle Island Land Fund for Colonial purposes Others argue that the Government will not disturb it. The members are agreed to oppose any legislation likely to affect the land.

. 8 p.m. The latest is that Mr Vogel, not finding his grounds so sure as he expected, has abandoned the idea of carrying the proposal during this Parliament.