GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Evening Star, Issue 3559, 20 July 1874, Page 2

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

[By Telegraph.]

■Wellington, July 18. The Legislative Council yesterday afternoon was occupied in discussing the Machinery Bill. On clause 11—“ That any person possessing machinery must send no tice to Inspector”— a division took place ; Ay '-8, 9 ; Noes, 9. The Chairman gave his casting vote with the ayes, and the clause was retained.

The Westland Loan Act and Canterbury Domains A ct were read a first time.

In the House of Representatives, Fourteen days’ Rave was granted to Mr Webster.

Mr Steward asked the Minister for Public Works when he intended to call for tenders for laying the permanent way of the Oamaru and Waitaki portion of the Waitaki and Moeraki Railway ; also when it was likely that the sections from Oamaru to Otepopo, and from Otepopo to Moeraki, would b. ready for the rails ?—Air Richardson said regarding the first part, that there was great difficulty in getting sleepers, and until they saw their way clear the Government coul; not give a positive answer, 'the contract did not include laying permanent way. Re girding the second part, the contract in eluded piate-laying, and tne time for cample tiou was on February IS next year. On the motion for going into committee on the Commissioner of Customs’ excise pro posals, considerable discussion ensued, many members being anxious that the matte should be referred to a select committee. The House went into Committee of Ways and Means to consider the proposals of tin Commissioner of Customs regarding the dutj on Colouial-dis illed spirits.—Mr Reynolds explained that the Government had warned persons in Dunedin who hud applied, notifying their intention to increase their premises, that that would nob avail them if the Go* vernment thought it advisable to alter the duty. He had a return prepared showing the barley grown and spirits distilled in the Colony since the commencement of distilleries after the Act of 1868, and the result showed that the revenue had lost LBO,I}UG. For every bushel of grain grown in the Co ony and consumed in its distilleries, the Government had paid a bonus of lls lljd, and the loss in differential duty had been nearly 2s per bushel. B-sides, growing of grain, contrary to expectations, had not been stimulated, but the reverse, nor had the employment ot labor been much. The Auckland Distill ny employed only §ve permanent hands, though there were casuals, aua the Dunedin Distillery employed twenty-three. Of the grain used, a large proportion had been imported, many brewers and the distillers having to go to California for barley. Iho Government had no intention to embarrass or injure any private business in the alightest degree, and had no objections to entertain any recommendations of the select committee appointed to inquire into any claims made. •—Mi bheehan objected. 1 he Commissioner had not stated tlie case fairly. He agreed that the distillation was a mistake. 1 hey were told that the distilleries could distil gia, brandy, and all other spirits, enough to lead them to believe that this was a perfect paradise for distilleries. What was the result ? They were iold the speculation was not a paying one. This ought to be a warning to all holding extreme protection views. Ua the other hand, he hold that the answer returned to the Government letter by the Auckland distillers destroyed the value of that letter. His own view was that the Government ought to stop the manufacture altogether, and indemnify those whom the Government induced to join in it.—Mr Vogel said they might as well decide the question of duty now as at any other time, and settle the question of compensation afterwards.— Sir Dilion Bell opposed the motion to report progress. He wanted to know, when the Commissioner showed that the Colony was a large loser, and ivlr .iaoaudrew said chat the Colonial distilleries were also luaers, how both statements were reconcilable.—Mr J. Shephard explained that the reason was that Colonial spirits must excel Home spirits, or they would n >t at all go into c nsumpuon. if Colonial distilleries du uo., t pay now, they never would, and me quicker the Government bougnt them out, ami pro hibited distillation aitogether, the Letter. Mr Luckie agreed wicn the viows. f the 1 Jomraisnouer. He pointed out that the proposed change was not at all out of the way, nor such as to suggest the idea of compensation, in 1863 the excise duty per gallon in Lng laud was 7s ; m Scotland, 2s Gd ; and in ireland, 2s 8d ; and yet, when it was equal to 10s per gallon throughout the whole king dom, no one heard ot any outcry or claim lor compensation. As for distilling aiding in the promotion of agriculture, that was a delusion, for the Southern brewers had last year had to send to California for gram. vi r iVCGlashan thought the idea of stopping distillation altogether was a pieca of absurdity. btop that, and they should stop the importations of spirit*.—Air Reid objected

to the proposal to abolish the industry without endeavoring to discover whether" it was not possible m the course of time to recoup themselves for the large amount of money lost to the country through distillation. He denied that distillation had ever been fostered as a means of aiding agriculture. He hoped the House would report progress. —Mr Reader Wood said it was evident that this first attempt at was a failure, and he had no doubt that every such attempt would be the same The first figures quoted by the Commissioner sufficiently showed that the proposals of the Gove-n----ment were wise, and left no alternative but to support them. If a select committee was wanted for anything, it was for the question of compensation, if brought forward ; but he saw no rea-on for compensation. Why did not the House, last year appoint a committee of inquiry into hundreds of cases where hardship resulted from alteration of duties ? He could not see that any primd facie case for compensation had been made out. He never saw a session that claims of the most preposterous character were not brought forward. It was time they set their faces against such practises, instead ef almost inviting a claim by appointing a committee to inquire into claims not yet made.— Vlr Tolmie asked that the petition laid on the table regarding excise duty be read (petition read) —Mr Murray objected to the idea of destroying an industry before having a fair trial. He would rather see British spirits not imported at all. Let them live upon what Scotland grew. The debate ou excise duties was resumed, —Mr Pyke said the Government had by implication promised that the matter should be referred to a select committee. Besides, he maintained that the Government had deliberately promised the distillers that there was no intention to increase the excise duty. He utterly deprecated the Government of any country playing fast and-loose in that way. Ho entirely agreed with the views embodied in the amendment given notice of by the hon. member for ort Chalmers, so that some permanent security mi«ht be afforded to persons engaged in distillation, Mr M Gillivray a.so approved of the amendment to be proposed by the member for fort Chalmers as m eting the case exactly. He would rather see Colonial spirits paying 12s per gallon than chat Home spirits should be imported at all —Mr Thompson opposed the proposals, on the ground that the Governmeut was not justified in carrying out such proposals, after the promises they had made to the distillers, for he considered Air Oawkwell had the best of the argument with the Government, as shown by his pamphlet There was a great deal of sentiment talked about closing up the distilleries of the Colony, but they all knew that if they did there would be any amount of illicit distillation. Considering the amount of interest suddenly taken in this question, he could not help thinking the importers had something to do with the hue ana cry now raised against Colonial distillation It"appeared that a large number of members opposed a select committee because they wore afraid Mr Cawkwell had a claim and would push it. No doubt Vlr ( awkwell had a good claim, and would yet establish it, and it would have to be me ; out of the revenues of the country.—Question was then put that progress be reported ami leave given to sit again, upon which the House divided with the following results Ayes, 25 ; noes, 36.—Mr Macandrew then moved, as an amendment, “That in order to provide permanent security to distillers against any expected increase in the rate of duty, the rate should be, ou all spirits manufactured in the Colony during 1878, 7s, per gailou to 10s imported, and 6d added per gallou for the two following years, and to remain at 8s per gallou until altered by law. He regretted the amendment had not been long?rin the hands of members, as it met the case perfectly, because he felt sure that tli«tillers would have a very large and just claim against the Government if the proposals were carried, - ( N -'o, no.) He doubted the perfect accuracy of the Commissioner’s figures, which be med'fied considerably without con sidering many collateral advantages the Colony d rived from distillation.—Mr Rey uoida could not see how the House could oppose the proposals, considering the large prospective loss before the Colony as admitted by the first clause of the amendment. He could assure members that the Government had given the question a most serious and long consideration, and it was impossible the country could go on losing so much per gallon.—Mr Luckie pointed out that the second paragraph of the amendment was cunningly worded. It would secure for the distillers the differential duty by the Act of 1873, because he was given to understand there was three years’ supply in bond at Dun edin.—Mr Swanson reiterated that, according to Mr Seed’s letter, Mr Cawkwell had a go d case against the Government, though the letter was so equivocally worded that Mr Oawkwell hail to write to Mr eed to ask him wha-u was the exact meaning of his words. VVhy did not the Government buy out these distilleries, and go into the grog business at once, and have the whole thing to themselves, with all their other business? He hoped soon members would withdraw (?). Mr Stafford said he hoped the honorable member for Port Chalmers’ resolutions would recommend themselves to the good' sense of the House, as he thought they were ®o framed as to meet the circumstances of this very peculiar case. While prepared to admit that Colonial distillation caused a considerable loss to the Colony, he also distrusted the figures adduced by the Commissioner of Customs ; indeed, he always distrusted figures of that department more than those of any kind, it must be remembered that the establishing ef licensed distilleries had completely checked a large amount of i licit distilling which had previously prevailed, no fewer than forty .one stihs having been discovered in one district in one year • but how many were not discovered ? There was no doubt whatever that Government had, as holding out inducements, in effect jnouiised not to interfere rigorously with the duties. -—Mr Vogel uecliued to enter, in committee, upon that phase of the question, which involved detriment to any company or individual. No one could doubt that it was absolutely necessary to increase the excise duty, but they could not consider the abstract question in a proper manner while it was mixed up with questions of private rights. So little had Government the desire to act in a way injurious to distillers, that they would be prepared to grant a select committee after the Bill containing the resolutions had been read a first time, in order to investigate the merits of the case.—Mr lilies maintained, as against the figures submitted by the Commissioner of Customs, that, although the uovernmeut mi hu hive missed a ceitain amount of revenue, tan Colony as a whole had not lost anything': oa the e mcrary, it had been large'y the gained, as 294,000 kalians of spirits had been dis tilled in the Colony, for which money had been retained here.—Mr Keader Wood pointed out that, as the resolutions of the member for Port Chalmers would nob come into fot.ee before 1878, and as this Parliament would nob lon-er be in existence, it w as better that this Parliament should allow the next Parliament to deal with the matter. He considered the Government was acting quite fairly in the matter.—Sir J. Oracrolt Wilson could not see how a breach of faith was di covered now which was never heard of before. --Major Atkinson sod that, while he would be prepared to consider the claims of any persons against Government, he would like to see the fiscal question stripped of its private bearings, and dealt with on abstract

grounds,—The resolutions were then carried on the voices, and reported to the House, and ordered to be committed on Tuesday. Th ; Posh Office -aviugs Banks Bili was committed.—Mr Swanson could see no necessity for limitin' the deposit to Ll,< 00 if limited at all.—J. MrE. Brown, in speaking of his own knowledge of the surprising way in which savings banks deposits were turned over, was certain that, in case of a financial crisis, the possibility of withdrawing such arge amounts was dangerous. The danger was great with a thousand pounds limit, but much greater if the amount was unlimited. The savings banks were not intended for persons owning smeh large amounts —The Premier bad no doubt the Goveraramt was quite capable of carrying on the business as safely as any bank. ’e did not apprehend any danger from the thousand pounds limit, but he must object to so serious an innovation as making deposits unlimited.—Mr Pyke pointed out that the Government was entering into unfair competition with ordinary banking institutions u{ the country. In this way a man could place LSOO in the bank in Dunedin, and could draw it in Wellington without paying any exchange. It was most unfair to the other banks.—Mr J. E. Brown thought that a most unfair proceeding, if true.—iVV* Vogel could not see that hanks had any reason to complain because the Government extended to the savings banks de positors every reasonable facility they could. —(Hear, hear )—The Bill was reported without amendments, read a third time, and passed. The New Zealand Forest debate was adjourned till Tuesday. The Premier moved the second reading of the Government Insurance and Annuities Bill, and explained its provisions. The second clause repeals Acts of 1869 and 1870. Clause 15 enables married women to contract as if single, and dispose of interest in contracts by will. Clause 20 makes life annuities free from taxes. Clause 26 piovides for loans on policies Clause 27 makes provision for arbitration in disputes between annuitant or ms kin and the commissioner. Clause 41 provides for annual accounts being laid before Parliament. Clauses 42, 43, and 44 provide :or actual investigation every five years, and the bringing up statement and report. Clause 45, the last clause, provides for the surplus of funds being divisible among the policy-holders ; these last c'auses b :iug hedged round with every kind of precaution to make its operation beneficial, and placing the whole under the control of the House. The Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Tuesday. The House went into committee upon the Civil Service Act Amendment Bill. The Premier proposed an amendment on the second clause. The repeal of the 19th section by the said Act shall not affect any persons transferred from the Provincial Civil Service to the Colonial Civil Service before passing of said Act.—The clause was strongly opposed by Mr Swanson and Mr Wood, but was agreed to.—ln Clause 3 the name of Mr David . ewis, Commissioner appointed under the New Zealand Laud Claimants Ordinance, was introduced, and to whom provisions of the act are to extend specially. Clause 10 provides a retiring allowance, an-4 that no pensions be granted if the annual sum of L9,0U0 be exceeded, unless the Governor considers the claimant entitled to it. A sharp discussion ensued, Mr Reader Wood moviag that that part giving discretionary power to the Governor to grant pensions in excess of L 9,000 be .-truck, out. A long discussion took place, followed by a division, the result being that the clause in its original ferm was retained by 28 to 9. The House adjourned at 1 a.m.