MR FISH AT THE MASONIC HALL.

Evening Star, Issue 3335, 28 October 1873, Page 2

MR FISH AT THE MASONIC HALL.

Pursuant to announcement 5) r H- S. Fish> juu., M.P.O. for Dunedin, addressed a meeting of the constituency in the above-named hall. The meeting was faiily attended. His Worship the Mayor presided. Mr Fish, who was greeted with applause, said— Chairman and gentlemen, —1 appear before you to-night £o give a slight account of my stewardship as one of yQijr members in the Provincial Council. It'may he Sard, ftipl some surprise may be expressed, that a member of the Council should have anything to say to his constituency" worth while calling a meeting for them to listen to. 1 am, however, inclined to believe that it is as much incumbent on members of the Provincial Council to call their constituents' together, as it is for members of the General Assembly to do so, to furnish an account of their stewardship!!! that position. _ I should have appeared before you at an earlier date, but was prevented by illness. But for that illness I should have appeared before yon at least two months earlier than now, _ In addition to the ordinary" business, two questions of more than ordinary interest came before the Provincial Council at its last session, and these, if nothing else had occurred, would have induced me to have held this meeting ; 1 refer to the cost of the establishment in Dunedin known as the High School, and also to the resolutions passed last session of Council in regard to the Hospital. These resolutions, it carried otit —and the( Invormnent was instructed to carry them out if found to be practical— Would have the effect of handing the institution over to the management of thb citizens. That

management would entail a certain amount of expense on the citizens themselves, but that consideration would he more than _ counterbalanced by the direct representation they would secure in the management of its affairs. —(Applau >e.) These are the two most important questions to which I will ask your attention, after which, if time permits and your patience does not happen to bo exhausted, I will allude to one or two matters of general importance. For a considerable time past I have held the opinion that the High School is an establishment quite unnecessary for the welfare of the inhabitants of this City or Province. I have been also of opinion for a considerable time that the cost of conducting that institution is very much greater than it should bemuch greater than the good results arising from it justify the Province in undertaking. I- also consider that it is wrong in -principle that the bulk of the community of this Province should bo called upon to provide a high class education for the benefit of the few. At an early period of the session I gave notice of questions for returns of this establishment : the number of scholars attending it, and the quantity of land set apart for educational endowments ; and having got these, I afterwards gave notice of the following resolutions :

“ 1. That tire cost of the High School is out of all proportion to the benefit derived by the community as a whole. “2. That it is, and must necessarily be, a class institution. “ g. That the High (school is not used for the purpose of preparing boys for tho University to any extent. ‘‘ 1. That the Grammar Schools arc able to prepare boys for the University, and at much less cost than the High School. “5. That, if any education beyond what can bo obtained at the Grammar Schools is required to prepare boys for the University, such education can be better provided by means of proprietary schools. *■ (!. That it is unfair to the people as a whole that they should be heavily taxed for the benefit of a class. “7. That the duty of the State as regards education begins and ends with providing elementary and grammar schools. “ 8. That it is unfair to the country settlers, inasmuch as the cost of board prohibits the use of the school by them.” I gave notice of these resolutions, and at a late period of the session I moved them in the Council, but from various circumstances, over which I had no control, they were delayed until a date when I considered it inadvisable to force them to an issue that session, I thought the subject was one of so much importance that it Hovuantletl tKc cuveful- consideration of 111C111* hors of Council, and at that period I considered that it would probably not receive the serious consideration which it demanded. I also felt that there would be no great barm in allowing it to remain over till next session, in order that the question itself should bp ventilated during tho recess. Those resolutions were accordingly withdrawn, on the distinct understanding that they would be brought forward again next session. In any remarks I may make, I wish it to be understood that I am no enemy to high class education, or that I decry the advantages to be derived from it. On the contrary I liave tho very greatest reverence for a high class education,'and iu my own person I can only say that I have often had cause to feel the want of it; and I believe I would have boon a much better man if I bad got more education than I liave got. I hope therefore that you will not for one moment imagine that 1 am iu' any respect of the word an enemy to high class education. What I wish to say is that I consider it wrong in principle that the State should take upon itself to provide such an education for the benefit of a few of the citizens at the cost of the whole. - (Applause.) I am aware that in advocating this principle many gentlemen, for whose opinions I entertain the highest respect,-differ from me. Some go far as to say that if the agitation iu which I an} engaged result in the abolition of tfie High Hchool, a filqw would be given to tho cause of education in Qtago tlpit all who wished well of the Province would very much regret. I have given to this view of the' subject careful consideration, and I have failed to discover that the withdrawal of State assistance will iu any respect operate prejudicially to the cause of education. If we provide for our children a sound elementary education, all that is necessary for a high-class education'will be provided for by proprietory establishments ; and the parents of these children, desiring that they should be taught in that way, will pay the whole cost of such an education.-.(Applause.) Many of you are, no d übtj aware that previous tg the last session of Council a commission was appointed tq iifqujro into the management qf tho High School That commission was composed of very good m<n> indoqd. Tfie Ron. Major Richardson was chairman ; with Professor Shaud, Alr btoqt, and some other gentlemen whose names 1 do not at this moment recollect. AU these men were well qualified to judge upon the matters remitted to them, and the report they drew up received careful consideration. It is from the report of that commission and the evidence adduced before it that I justify the propositions I am about to make regarding the school In order properly to illustrate my views upon this subject I have laid down a variety of propositions, and it will be my duty afterwards to prove these propositions, and upon the. proof or otherwise of these the question itself will deserve your support. My first proposition is that the cost of the High School is out of all proportion to the advantage 1 conferred by it upon the community as a -whole. (2nd. , ) > The High School is necessarily a class institution. (3rd.)-That the High School is not used for the purpose of preparing boys'for the University,- (4th.) J hat Grammar Schools are able to prepare boys for the University' at less eosfc ihau the High School. (sth. j That if any education'beyond that obtained at tho Grammar Schools be nedesl- - to prepare boys for the University, such education can be better provided by means of proprietary schools. (<>.) That it is unfair to the people as a. whole that they should be taxed heavily for the benefit of a class ; and (7th) That the duty of the State begins and ends by providing elementary ami grammar schools. In Support of these propositions, 1 the speaker proceeded to 1 say Rrortr statistics I rijveivcd in answer to' the question T put in the Gomn-il, I gather the foljdwing facts. J In' estimating the cosl of ffio 'H)gh School, I thought it unfair to take the cost of any oiie'yefp- as a basis, f bgve therefore taken the cost of the preceding five years em)iijg st March, I{Rand from that source I gather the following result ; The total cost of the High School for five ye: f rs, ending the 3J.st March, 1874, was Ll3,Clßofis 8d; adding interest on cost of buildings-L20,000, at 0 per cent., a low rate—wo have Ld,ooo, or a total of LIU,OBO 5s Bd, Receipts for school fees during the same period, L 5.755 8s 4d; making a net cost for the five years of L13,8!)4 La 4d, (,r au annual net cost of about L 2,7/8 to the Siato. That is to say, we liave been paying fqr tlic- last five years tho sum of L 15,000 for the education of those boys who have been educated at the HLh 'School. Tsbw, last year’s attendance at the school u-as 103, but In order to be perfectly fair and rather to err m favour of the school, I have given ti»e average at 115 for five years, although I was perfectly certain that" that number was considerably "above the mark. I do not believe the average would be more than 100, but I have given tho school the benefit of Ho. I. took the average for five years at 115, which made the nett cost per annum for each boy to the State L 24 5s l|d, 1 also estimated the cost of each boy iu the District Schools for a similar period, so that the meeting may learn tho difference, if any, between the two establishments. The total cost for five years ending 51st March, 1873, was Ld7,d47 Ids 7d, to which I added interest at six per cent, on LIB,OOO, being the cost of school buildings during that period, 145,400—a total cost for the live years of L 73,047 Ids 7d, or an annual oosf of about L1,4,d09. The average annual attendance a)- the District Schools has been 4, S2O, making the cost per annum for each child about L 3 0s 71d.-—(Applause.) Tims, gentlemen, we hue in one case, and I wish you particularly to mark the fact, the cost, L 24 3s lid per head, as against L 3 0s 7.] d in the other, a difference which will also show as a result a very groat amount of difference in the education of the children. I find upon reference to the Blue Books of the Council that very liberal endowments of land have been made from time to time iu the cause of education. Unfortunately, these endowments have not been classified; in other Words it has not been stated how many acres were appropriated for

High School and how many for District School purposes ; but the total amount set aside is 1,100.588 acres. It is a fact that fur a considerable quantity of that laud the Province has not received Crown grants from the General Government, and I doubt if Crown grants will ever be received for portions of it. Supposing we do not receive these grants, and that the land fund and general revenue is insufficient to pay the cost of education, what must of necessity be the result ? It must be this : The Provincial Council must of necessity impose a direct tax upon all of us to support the educational establishments of this Province. Although we may not feel the cost of education at present, including tins L 3,000 per annum for the support of the High School, if we pay every quarter clay 3d, or (id, or 9d in the £ to keep up that establishment, then we will find the shoe pinch, and grumble at paying it.—(Applause.) I say even supposing the laud fund should last for ever, or that the land endowments should be sufficient from the increased value of laud to pay the cost of these educational establishments, still, I hold that it is wrong that the land—the people’s estate -should be taken and applied for the benefit of educating a few individuals in this community. (Applause). With respect to the second proposition, that the High School is a c!a s institution, the speaker quo'e 1 Com pag< 5 of the evidence taken by tiie Commission, which showed that of a total of 89 scholars, 59 professional men sent their children to the school, the remaining 30 being the children of tradesmen. That fact alone showed that the establishment was used by a class of persons well able to pay the cost of e.lnerting their children.—(Cheers.) Besides, it followed, as a matter of course, that the High School must be a class institution, as the majority of the middle class and. working people could not afford that their children should give up the time necessary for receiving such an education as the High School provides. It is therefore plain that it must of necessity be a class institution. Therefore, he would ask, was it right or proper that they should provide, at the expense of the whole community, funds for maintaining a class institution? I think the answer must be “No.” — (Cries of “Certainty not;” and applause.) In support of the third proposition, lie quoted from the evidence taken by the commissi m to shew that out of 159 boys who left the institution during a period of four years ending the year 1872,1123 left it, not to go to the University —not to pursue those objects for which a classical education was supposed to fit them,— but to pursue the various avocations and duties of life, thereby showing that the community were not sufficiently wealthy to fully take advantage of a school where boys intended for the learned profession might be educated. The speaker went on to say ; In corroboration of that fact, I will refer you to the following questions and answers put by Mr Stout, one of the commissioners ; and I will hpre remark that Mr Stout’s questions are well put and strike at the root of the evil, showing plainly that he grasped the whole subject in a masterly manner. “ Are there any pupils entered whose parents do not desire them to be taught classics ?” “ A considerable number.” “ Seeing that there are some pupils who are not taught classics; do j r ou think there are any pupils attending the school who could be taught them in the district schools ?” “The district schools could teach many of the elementary subjects as well as the High School.” “ Do you think there are any who send their children to the school simply because it is a select school, and who prefer it, not because of the higher brandies being taught, but because their children will reap advantages supposed to be obtained only in private schools ?” “ None as far as I am aware.” “If a stricter entrance examination were insisted on, would the work now done by the High School, and which could be accomplished by the district schools, be done by the district scho >ls, or would the parents send their children to private schools ?” “T imagine that the children would be sent in about eqqgl numbers tq district schools and tq private schools/’ “Suppose the children were son); to private schools, \yoqld the fees be higher or lower than those paid at the High School ?" “ Higher. So far as lam aware, the fees at private sohools are higher, and an ext;a charge is made for some branches which are included in the High School curriculum.” If, continued Mr Firm, the district schools taught as well, at a cost of L 3, why should they pay L 24 for the same education ? Was it not a folly ? But the fact was, that unless boys of this class - were admitted into the school, they would have no boys there at all. The wl|o]e tlpng was a sham.—(hfeap, hear.) Boys who ought tq bo receiving aq gdufiktiou at the district schqol at |bc rqte of Li) par annum, werp absolutely costing the Province L 24 per annum, Mr Fjsli thqu continued quoting from the Blue-book

“ In your opinion is there any tendency to make the High School a class institution ? ” “ There was at one time, but is not now.” “Do you think the keeping of the fees low makes the school less a class school than it would otherwise become if the fees were raised ? ” “Certainly.” “If the school were divided, as you suggest, into two divisions—classical and commercial—would it not happen that boys would attend the commercial division who could be well taught in the district schools?” “ Yes, it would be ; but the commercial education given to the High School I would expect to be of higher character.” ; “ Do you think that if the fees wars’ raised, the number of scholarships from district schools largely increased, and the entrance, examination raised, the High School would become iua greater degree a High School than it has been hvthe past?” • -■ - !■- “No; T think it would be an injurious tiling to increase the number of Provincial scholarships.” “Are there, not boys attending the High School now being taught merely elementary subjects, which district schools could teach, but whose parents are able to pay the higher fee charged at the High School ? ”

r “ Yes, but that- cannot be helped. The only remedy for that would he to increase the standard of the entrance examinations, as I have previously recommended in answer to L” ' ■■ ' ■ ■ ■ ■ Suppose the lee§ lor the lower forms were mape higher, and the fees for the higher forms kept as now or made lower, would not IJie liigher branches |je niiple niqro open to the poorer classes ip tips community than now ? ” “ I do not think so, because the attendance on the more advanced classes of the High School must be limited by the necessities of the industrial classes.” Mr Fish continued that for his own part inclined to think that the rector he was fenced the question. If he answered correctly he must have stated that the boys were sent to school for the reasons stated. It was well known that there were many parents who would rather send their children to the High School than to the district schools, where they had to rub nosek"with djrty little boys. —(Laughter.) It sounded so well to say*th|)itf ; V pi*r hoy §p§s to the High School.” The next question put was as follows j—- “ Do you think the entrance examination to the High School should be raised ?" “Most decidedly." This was a most significant fact. The next question was put to Mr M‘Gregor: — “Do you think there should be a proper gradation between district schools aud high schools and the University, and that no children should be taught any branches in the higher schools which they can be taught in the lower ? ” “ There ought to be an entrance examination to the High School sufficiently high to preclude pupils who have not been thoroughly drilled in the elementary branches being admitted to the High School.” In support of l)is fourth proposition, Mr Fish alluded to the case of .q hoy muped Ferguson, who had been taught at the Grammar School, I'okomuiriro, and who was now attending the University, where he had gained high distinctions, and stated that many oases of a similar nature had come within his own knowledge. After reviewing the. other propositions, Mr Fish went on to say : The next point I will address you upon is certain resolutions passed in regard to the Dunedin Hospital, The effect of these resolutions would be that the public of Dunedin would be called upon to contribute to some e.v

tent to the support of the Hospital. As all equivalent for that, the Institution would be placed in the hands of a committee, and three medical men would be appointed to assist, in addition to the resident medical officer. The taking over of this institution by the public was no doubt only a question of time. It could not be expected that the State was always to bear the expense of it. In other communities hospitals were maintained by contributions from the public. In this Province the hospitals outside of Dunedin are in the hands of the people, their contributions being subsidised by the Government. Whether we like it or not, something will have to be done in that way for the Dunedin Hospital. Individually, I hail with delight a proposition of tliis kind. The institution would be better and more economically managed by a committee of citizens than by the Government. Under Government the management is left to the individual, who may be good or maybe bad; as a manager, lie is in the exact position of an autocrat. I have no reason to believe anything to the contrary but that the Dunedin Hospital is quite as well managed as any other Hospital in the Province. I am, however, persuaded that the present staff of medical attendants is altogether insufficient for the number of patients confined within its Avails. Although Ido not recollect the exact number, if my memory serves me right, the patients number over 100. For one medical gentleman, with the assistance of Dr Hulme, to attend properly to that number of inmates is, I think, an impossibility. Besides, I hold that an institution of that kind owes something to the cause of science, and. should be open to the medical profession generally. We are all liable to have occasion to employ the services of the doctors. Seeing that our lives are placed in their hands, it is our duty to foster the means for giving them the advantage of evexy opportunity for studying their profession. No better field for that object could be got than a large hospital. In Melbourne there is an institution founded upon this principle, and it is an ornament. That institution is managed well, and the public are well served ; and I have not the slightest doubt they would be equally well served in Dunedin. After alluding to the act|on taken in connection with the proposed removal of the toll-bars, the provision made for the construction of branch or feeder railways, and other business transacted during the late session of Council, lie observed: There was L 20,000 voted by the Council for additional school accommodation. Out of this sum between L 3,000 and L 4,000 was allocated for Dunedin. Ido not think that that is sufficient for Dunedin ; I think more should have been granted, and I would counsel you to agitate in order that an ii}creased axqount may be voted next year. My own opinion is that we should get funds for the erection of at least five schools. You are also aware a great fight took place in the Executive. Certain resolutions were brought doyu by the Reid party in reference to the sale qf laqd at Maerewhenua to thg Hon, Mr Campbell. I will only say this : that after investigation, it was clearly established that this sale had been assented to by the Reid Administration, of which Mr Reid himself had been head, therefore their predecessors were bound to ratify the sale. Since then Mr Turnbull came into office, and I have supported his Government. I admit that I did not altogether approve of the manner in which they brought some of the business before the Council. There appeared to be an absence of business management with them, and they seemed to be rather more willing to be led by their supporters than take the position they ought to have done. I have only to say that, unless this is altered next session, it is possible I may be found voting against them. (Applause.) At the same time I am free to admit that the present Executive have not, in my opinion, any other desire than the best interests of the Province, but as I have already said they have shewn a great lack of business ability in bringing matters before the Council. (A Voick : Is that because they did - not givfe you a billet?) If they ‘did not givfe me‘a billet that is their loss, not mine.—-(A laugh.) Generally, I think the Council in itsTast session did a creditable amount of work. The length of the session was thirty ejays, Upoq the 6 \ think the present Council will compare favor : ably with any previous Council. Tile factious part of the Council has now been broken up, and I trust a long tiiqe will elapse "befqre another body of that kind is again formed, Tq test the feeling of this meeting qq. the question of the High Soli ml, I shall move “ That in the opinion of this meeting the school be discontinued, ”

The motion was put and carried without dissent.

A few unimportant questions were put to the representative, after which Mr She rwin, sen., moved, and Mr Gn/'HUIsT seconded a vote of thanks to Mr Fi*h, which was carried with acclamation,

The proceedings qlosed with a similar vote to the Chairman,