PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Evening Star, Issue 3197, 20 May 1873, Page 2

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Monday, Mat 19. At the conclusion of >Mr Tolmie’s speech the hon. Mr Reynolds rose to a point of order, and said that it was usual to allow considerable latitude to the head of a Government in making an explanation. The Speaker : The hon. member is certainly as well aware as I am that the rule pf debate is, that no explanation shall be made either by a member of the Government or by a member of the House in which debateable matter shall be introduced: it must be a simple statement of explanation. Hon. members will at once see the justice and force of such a rule,, when they consider that the object of the debate and the object of the Speaker in conducting the debate, should be that both sides of the House should have a fair hearing; and that no one side of the House should be given an advantage over the other. That is the general principle laid down for the conduct of debate; and it would be manifestly unfair that one side should have an opportunity given it, which is not accorded to the other, to use one-sided ai'guments. The Hon. Mr Reynolds quite agreed with the remarks of the Speaker; but said it was usual to allow a great amount of latitude to a member of the Government in making an explanation, which given, any hon. member could move that the House do now adjourn, which would allow any member to reply to the hon, member at the head of the Government. The Speaker: I quite agree that considerable latitude is allowed to members qf the Government : I did not interfere until my attention was called to it. Mr Reid : Will the hon. member for Dunedin (Mr Reynolds) say whether, in the event of my making such a motion, I will be allowed time to conclude my remarks ? The Hon. Mr Reynolds : I presume the hon. member will have time enough to make his remarks. I know nothing to the contrary. (Oh, oh.) The Provincial Secretary said after the course laid down by the Speaker, he must confine himself entirely to the question at issue, and in reference to that question, he considered that, in consequence of the conflicting interests in the House, it was impossible that a strong Administration could be formed. In consequence, although it was done reluctantly, but, at the same time, bethought the country would benefit by it, the Government bad recommended his Honor to prorogue the Council, with a view to an application being made to the. General Government to grant a dissolution.— (Cheers.) He did not think that he had gone beyond the bounds of propriety in making that explanation. He had no motion to make, and would simply resume his seat. The Speaker then announced a Message from his Honor the Superintendent, which was rea 1 . Mr. Reid : I was about to move the adjournment of'the House. I think, Sir, — The Speaker ; Another Message from his Honor the Superintendant. —(Laughter.) (After a pause)—lt is not a message :it is. simply a letter. The hon, member for the Taieri will plww prooMth

move Mw whetherhon. raemSbdSj we prepared to proceed with fh« business: if not, he would Sinove the adjournment, attdin order that he might place clearly feme the House and the electors’of the Province the position in which matters stood at the present time,, he felt justified, and even called upon to take the opportunity of that motion to state what trans pired since the time the motion Was carried on which the Government thought fit to . resign. They had been told on many oecasions—in fact, they were reminded in the Message that had just been read—that a great deal or the time of the House and of the country had been wasted. Let them see with whom lay the fault that this had occurred? On the very first opportunity which The Secretary for the Goldfields : I rise to a point of order. I maintain that no hon. member is in order. There is no Council at the present time. A communication from his Honor the Superintendent The Speaker : The hon. member is out of order—(Hear)—and will please resume his seat. The Secretary for the Goldfelds : I insist upon his Honor’s communication being read Mr Meuvtn : Sir, I beg to call your attention to the fact of strangers being in the House. The Speaker : I cannot possibly recognise any document Mr Mervyn : Mr Speaker, I again call your attention to the fact of strangers being in the House. The Speaker : I trust the hon. member will not enforce his notice. —(Cries of. “ No, no,” and “ withdraw.”) I think matters might be proceeded with regularly and in order without the necessity of disturbance, or strangers being removed—-

justified, and even called upon to take the opportunity of that motion to state what trans pired since the time the motion Was carried on which the Government thought fit to . resign. They had been told on many oecasions—in fact, they were reminded in the Message that had just been read—that a great deal or the time of the House and of the country had been wasted. Let them see with whom lay the fault that this had occurred? On the very first opportunity which The Secretary for the I rise to a point of order. I maintain that no hon. member is in order. There is no Council at the present time. A communication from his Honor the Superintendent The Speaker : The hon. member is out of order—(Hear)—and will please resume his seat. The Secretary for the Goldfelds : I insist upon his Honor’s communication being read Mr Meuvtn : Sir, I beg to call your attention to the fact of strangers being in the House. The Speaker : I cannot possibly recognise any document Mr Mervyn : Mr Speaker, I again call your attention to the fact of strangers being in the House. The Speaker : I trust the hon. member will not enforce his notice. —(Cries of. “ No, no,” and “ withdraw.”) I think matters might hi proceeded with regularly and in order without the necessity of disturbance, or strangers being removed—Mr M'Glashan : I rise to a point of order. There is a communication from his Honor the Superintendent, which I understand- — Mr Reid : I submit that I cannot be intc rupted in this way. What is the point of order? * Mr M'Glashan ; I have merely to state that the hon. member for the Taieri is very anxious to interrupt roe; and I hope he will not do it again. My point of order is this ; A Message from his Honor is sent to this House ; and accompanying that Message Mr Reid : I submit that is not a point of order. I must ask The Speaker ; Will the hon. member for the Taieri resume his seat ? Mr Fish : I understand that another document has been presented to this House by his Honor the Superintendent. I have to ask should not that document be read before the hon, member for the Taieri proceeds ? The Hon. Mr Reynolds; I contend (Loud cries of “ Chair.”) There is no Council in existence. There is before the Speaker a Gazette proclamation of prorogation; and there is really no Council in existence [Here the hon. gentleman was interrupted by fierce cries of “Chair, chair,” which lasted several seconds.] The Hon. Mr Reynolds ; I, am quite aware of what lam speaking. I say the hoh. member'for the Taieri is not in order. There is no Council: it is prorogued; a Gazette notice Jha* been issued, and the Government have inti- ■ mated that such is the case.—(Renewedcrifesof - “Chair”and “Order.”) - The Speaker ; I regret exceedingly the conduct of hon. members. This is the first occasion since I have been elected Speaker, that members have treated roe, in my position as Speaker, in the manner they have done on the present occasion.—(Hear.) I trust that members will see that it is highly derogatory to their own position as members of this House to treat the Speaker of this House in the manner they have done.—(Cheers.) I trust that I know what duties I have to perform to this Council;

Mr M'Glashan : I rise to a point of order. There is a communication from his Honor the Superintendent, which I understand- — Mr Reid : I submit that I cannot be into' nipfced in this way. What is the point of order? *

Mr M'Glashak ; I have merely to state that the hon. member for the Taieri is very anxious to interrupt roe; and I hope he will not do it again. My point of order is this ; A Message from his Honor is sent to this House ; and accompanying that Message Mr Reid : I submit that is not a point of order. I must ask The Speaker ; Will the hon. member for the Taieri resume his seat ?

ami I also trust that members will recognise

that they also have duties to perform towards myself. I have received no notice of the prorogation of the Council, I cannot recojmise any printed documents sent here without authority; I know not where they are printed The proper course, if there was any intention to prorogue the Council, was to have forwarded the proclamation either by message, or for the Superintendent personally to have appeared in this place, when I should at once have bowed to him, and received the prorogation from. him. —(Hear.) The hon. member for the Taieri is in order in speaking. Mr Fish-l Before-r The Speaker: The hon. member for Dunedin must resume his seat; he is out of order. Mr Fisji ; How can you say that I am out of order, until you hear wuat my point of order is ? —(Cries of “ Chair !”) i The Hon. Dr Menzies called attention to the existence of a sergeant-at-arms, whose dnty,it was to apprehend for contempt any member who did not obey the chair. The Secretary fob the Goldfields : I think, Vvith all due deference to you, Mr Speaker, that in the statement you havejust made yon ' were slightly under a wrong impression when th« Message came down from his Honor.—(Cries of “ Chair!”) It is very well to say “ chair.” Mr Reid : I rise to a point of order. The Secretary for the Goldfields ; I respect the chair; but there is no chair now, and I shall not pay any respect to it.—(Confusion), The same gentleman who brought down hi# Honor’s Message handed to the Speaker the prorogation of this Council; and no gentleman knows it better than the Speaker— The Speaker; Beyond the Message that has been read I have received no .Message from his Honor the Superintendent. If the Superintend dent sends a proclamation of the prorogation of the Council by Message in due form, then I will receive it. But I will not admit an ipformar lity. The Secretary for the Goldfields : You will not admit it because it does not suit you, Mr Reid said he knew the few remarks ho had to make; would be exceedingly unpalatable to boa. members opposite. As the hon. member at the head of the Government had been allowed to give his version of the negotiations made up to the present time, he (Mr Reid) desired to tell what action he had-himself taken in regard to what had been termed the crisis—(Cries of “ Question.”) —in order that members might be placed in the possession of facts. Mr Fish rose to a point of order. The hon. member for the Taieri should confine himself strictly to giving reasons for the adjournment. The Speaker said the hon. member for Dunedin was not in order in laying down a rule which none but the Speaker had a right to lay down. Mr Fish again rpse to speak, when he was met by cries of “ Chair.” Mr Gotten said it was absolutely necessary that soine.person should be present to enforce respect for the Speaker’s position, (Mr Duncan : “The Sergeant-at-Arms.”) ' It was as plain as a pike-staff that the gentlemen .on the other side were wasting time, to allow time for the Superintendent £q pome 4°lVs V)d prqrqgqg the Council Mr Reid said he wished to avoid as much as possible saying anything offensive to any member of the Council; and would strictly confine himself to a statement, which, as an act of courtesy, the House should accede to him, in reply to what fell from the hon, member at the bead of the Government. When interrupted, he was about to state that after what transpired on Thursday last in the House, and after the remarks of the hon. member for Oteramika (Sir F. D. Bell), ' and the hon. member for Oatnaru Country (Dr Webster), he put himself in communication with Dr Webster, and suggested to him the proEriety of endeavoring to arrive at a coalition etweeu the two parties in the House. That hon. member approved of the proposal; and said he would use his endeavors as between the two parties to arrive at a solution of the present unpleasant state of affairs in the Council, and that hon. gentleman attended a meeting of the gentlemen acting with him (Mr Rein), and agreed, on certain conditions, to submitproposals $o those who acted with himself. Those conditions were that two members were to be taken from tha 'pf ’ Council into any Executive that might bp formed from the majority of the Council He waited upon that hon. gentleman later, when he intimated that an insuperable objection was raised by Mr Turnbull to his (Mr Reid’s) name being included in any. Government that might be formed. He (Mr Reid) told Dr Webster that he would intimate to him-next day the decision that come to by those with whom he (Mr Reid) was acting. .After consulting with his friends, and at three o’clock the same day, he (Mr Reid) waited upon the hon. gentleman and informed him that his party would not agree to any specific condition that either himself, or any other member of it who might be considered eligible by the party, should be excluded from taking a part in the Government. They also received a resolution passed by the hon. gentleman’s friends, which was to the effect; “That, while thanking them (Mr Reid’s party) for the offer made, they were, of opinion that no good to the country would result from a coalition ’’—(Hear) After that resolution there was no other course op*n but to form a Government from his (Mr Raid side of the House. He submitted to his Honor, on Thursday, the names of gentlemen who were willingto act alongwithJhimselfTandW already .'explained, «iidnot accept those JMr

Mr Reid said he wished to avoid as much as possible saying anything offensive to any member of the Council; and would strictly confine himself to a statement, which, as an act of courtesy, the House should accede to him, in reply to what fell from the hon, member at the head of the Government. When interrupted, he was about to state that after what transpired on Thursday last in the House, and after the remarks of the hon. member for Oteramika (Sir F. D. Bell), and the hon. member for Oatnaru Country (Dr Webster), he put himself in communication with Dr Webster, and suggested to him the propriety of endeavoring to arrive at a coalition between the two parties in the House. That lion, member approved of the proposal; and said he would use his endeavors as between the two parties to arrive at a solution of the present unpleasant state of affairs in the Council, and that hon. gentleman attended a meeting of the gentlemen acting with huh (Mr Rein), and agreed, on certain conditions, to submitproposals $o those who acted with himself. Those conditions Were that two members were to be taken from the' majority of Council into any Executive that might bp formed from the majority of the Council. He waited upon that hon. gentleman later, when he intimated that an insuperable objection was raised by Mr Turnbull to his (Mr Reid’s) name being included in any. Government that might be formed. He (Mr Reid) told Dr Webster that he would intimate to him-next day the decision that be come to by those with whom he (Mr Reid) was acting. .After consulting with his friends, and at three o’clock the same day, he (Mr Reid) waited upon the hon. gentleman and informed him that his party would not agree to any specific condition that either himself, or any other member of it who might be considered eligible by the party, should be excluded from taking a part in the Government. They also received a resolution passed by the hon. gentleman’s friends, which was to the effect; “That, while thanking them (Mr Reid’s party) for the offer made, they were, of opinion that no good to the country would result from a coalition ’’—(Hear) After that resolution there was no other course open but to form a Government from his (Mr Reia */ side of the House. He submitted to his Honor, on Thursday, the names of gentlemen w h° we» willing to act along, with himself: ,¥*4*® already .'explained, «iid not M accept those Barney JMr ******

On that same evening he was waited on by the honorable member at the head of the Government (Mr Tolrme), and let them mark—by a gentleman who had previously said no good could result from coalition, to use his endeavors to bring about a coalition —(Hear)—That course of action certainly dia appear to be unreasonable. The con ■titutional method was to ask a member to undertake the task who would agree to treat with the minority, in order to obtain a Miniatry that would represent fairly both sides of the’ House. Up to the present time the constitutional method had not been adopted. As the hon. member at the head of the Government had informed the House, the member for Oamam country was sent for, and that gentlemen on Saturday again did . him (Mr Reid) the honor of conferring with him, in order to see what could be come to between the two parties ; and, having submitted his proposals to another meeting, it was adhered to that ms (Mr Reid’s) party could not recede from the position taken up formerly, viz., that the gentleman entrusted with the task of forming a Government should be selected from the majo-. rity of the Council, and that morning the hon. member informed him he had abandoned the undertaking. He had only to say further, that after the decision come to by those with whom he was acting, and although the meeting would not allow any proposal to exclude his own name, nevertheless it was his full intention to have voluntarily retired at the end of the session, during which time he would have held a non-official position m the Executive and led the business m the Council. But he could not agree to it going forth to the whole Province and the Colony that his name must necessarily be excluded from any Government about to be formed.—(Cheers.) The action of the other side had lea to the stoppage of business; nothing likely to retard public business was attributable to him ; he had made most liberal advances—advances that had been characterised by the hon. member for Oteramika as more than could have been expected from his (Mr Beid’s) side; and such being the case, he could only say that, whatever the result of the action now proposed to be taken, he felt that the majority of the Council and the public would be satisfied that whatever had led to the crisis, to the stoppage of the business of the Province, and would lead to the enormous expenditure of public and private means on a purely personal and party consideration, he and the party with whom he acted had done everything in their power to make overtures to those on the other side. He would not like to enter upon a discussion of matters that had come before the Council since it last met, though it would not be out of place to consider the Message just received. So far as any want of courtesy to the Superintendent went, in not replying to Messages Nos. 3 and 5, it was the Government who were responsible. It was their duty to have submitted the answers or replies they wished forwarded. Mr Fish was about to speak, when the Speaker announced Ihe receipt of a Message enclosing a proclamation from his Honor the Superintendent. At the conclusion of the reading of the pro?, cjlamailoh, and amid loud cheering from the Government side, in which the galleries joined, and a storm of hisses from the Opposition, the Speaker retreated from his chair, and the thirty-second session of the Provincial Council ended, “three cheers for the Superintendent,” at the call of Mr M'Glashan, being given as the general uprising took place, ..