PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Evening Star, Issue 3187, 8 May 1873, Page 2

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Wednesday, May 7.

The Speaker took the chair at two o’clock. Sir Thomson asked why the Hon. John Bathgate, who, as Provincial Solicitor, is ex officio a member of the Executive Council, had not taken his seat on the Executive benches ? The Provincial Secretary said Mr Bathgate, not being Provincial Solicitor, had not taken his seat as member of the Provincial Executive. Committees. On the motion of the Provincial Secretary, Nos. 18 to 21 on the Order Paper, which had reference to the appointment of Printing and Private Petitions Committees, took precedence of other business. They were carried. Mr Thomson, on moving for the appointment of a Committee of Reference, said that although he considex-ed the proceedings of the Committee might be questioned, as he thought them illegal, he would move “That the Committee of Reference, under tire Provincial Compulsory Land Taking Act, 1866, consist of Mr Clark, Mr Lumsden, Mr M‘Lean, Mr Sumpter, Mr Reid, Mr Hallenstein, and the Mover.” Mr Bathgate considered that a person expressing an opinion of that character, without good grounds, disqualified himself from acting fairly as a member of it, and moved that his name be struck off the list.

Mr Hutcheson, pro forma, seconded the motion, and was proceeding to speak on it, when

Mr Bathgate asked leave to withdraw his motion, as he trusted Mr Thomson saw the impropriety of which he had been guilty. The motion was carried.

ADDRESS IN REPLY. Mr Fish moved the following address in reply to His Honor’s speech : “ We join with your Honor in expressing satisfaction at the steady advancement which has characterised the progress of the Province during the past year. We have to assure yon that the many important proposals suggested by you will have our earnest consideration. As respects the Executive changes which have taken place during the recess, no doubt much may be said. We are of opinion, however, that it will serve no practical purpose to discuss the subject now, and shall be prepared to deal with the policy of the Government upon its merits.” He was inclined to regret that the practice in some other Provinces had not been followed of not moving any address in reply to His Honor’s message. He looked upon the abolition of that formality as a step in the right direction—a small one it might be, but it was in the direction of doing away with useless and unnecessary forms in connection with meetings of the Council. There might have been reasons why, in this instance, the usual course was followed, and, as the youngest member of the Council, it had fallen to his lot to propose the address in reply. He might take either of two courses : cither to say little or adopt the course of criticising the address itself. He did not think it would be wise to content himself with moving the address without saying something on the subject of it. He therefore requested the indulgence of honorable members, if he detained them longer than he might otherwise have done. He had been struck with the evidence given of marked prosperity in the Province for the last twelve months. It was unexampled in New Zealand. It was not a mere statement on paper, but the statistics shewed it to be real. The export returns must strike every one both in and out of the Colony. It was matter for regret that none of the Customs revenue found its way to the Provincial Treasury; but all went to the general revenue, although one-third of the Customs revenue of the Colony was contributed by this Province. The yield of gold shewed a small increase, and when it was considered that tire number of miners was less than formerly, it was evident the produce of our goldfields per man was increasing. On reading the figures indicative of the exports, he was amazed at the gigantic strides the Province had made. Such rapid advance was without parallel in any other part of the world. That fact of L7O per head must form cause for thankfulness and gratulation. The progress had been greater and more sure than many amongst us had been aware of. Another item showing progressiveness was that a papermill was about to be established, Tire bonus offered by the Government had, no doubt, been the immediate cause ; but it showed that those who suggested its being offered were right in their judgment as to what was conducive to success. With regard to the bank account, it was gratifying to find the financial year started with a credit balance of L 16,700, instead of, as last year, a debit one of L 40,000. It showed a difference of L 57 x OOO. His Honor alluded to the investment of capital in gold mining. No dopbt, large capital had been bo invested, and it was a proof that there was a large amount of unemployed capital seeking investment. Whatever differences of opinion there might be, all would agree in expressing gratification at the prosperity of the Province. The next item was that of immigration. He observed that 1,525 adults had arrived during the past year. He could not help regretting it was not much greater. He believed the Province was capable of absorbing 10,000 immigrants a-ycar, and if the scheme now being carried out was to be a success there must be not only in Otago, but in other Provinces, a considerable accession to die number sent to our shores. He was glad that during the present year there were likely to he 4,009 or 5,000 immigrants sent to this Province, He did not think that sufficient, and that it was a matter for rejoicing that die Glasgow agency was re-opened. He might say that from no portion of Great Britain could more suitable immigrants be drawn than from that source. He was glad to find a large number was likely to arrive from thence, m was

glad that immigrants were likely to be brought by large steamers; for to shorten the duration of the voyage-was so much profit to the immigrants, the Province, and the Colony. He considered the immigration scheme should be woiked by the General Government, which should seek advice from the Provincial authorities and make use of those agencies which had proved successful He the present school accommodation quite inadequate to the requirements. It was true with regard to the town, and doubtless it was so in the country. If our admirable scheme of Provincial education were to be a success, competent teachers were required; he, therefore, entirely agreed with what his Honor said in regard to training schools, and an additional inspector was a necessary, for it would be miserable economy to render schools inefficient through want of inspection. As a (Commission was appointed to inquire into the High school management, lie need say nothing on that head, but he considered the time had arrived when the High School should be abolished, for he considered the duty of the State began and ended with the district and grammar schools. If it was to be maintained, it should be selfsupporting, There were only 105 boys, who, independent of the fees paid, cost the Province L 2,000 per annum. That should bo stopped, for he objected to continue the system which voted large sums of money for the benefit of a class. He was informed that is the grammar schools a high class education was given, and that it was sufficiently comprehensive and classical to enable boys to take their place in society, with benefit to themselves and Otago. With regard to railways, the proposals required careful consideration. All agreed that the main trunk lines should be completed, and every effort should be made to bridge the intervening space. Although not prepared to offer a definite opinion upon that clause of the Address, he should give it a general support. He considered lines should be let by tender, no matter by what means payment was to be made. Land fit for agriculture would be enhanced in value, and in the Waipahi Valley would probably fetch L3orL 4 an acre. It was, therefore, a question whether land should be sold before or after the railway was made. Under any circumstances, it should only be sold to bona fide settlers ; for if the land were parted with to squatters or large capitalists, what would become of immigrants when they arrived ? The line from Moeraki to Dunedin was of equal importance. The General Government were making a survey, and if a scheme could be devised by which the line could be more speedily made by the Province, it should have his support. There should be an unbroken lino frpm north to south. He was glad the Government had turned attention to making main roads through the goldfields, for he could speak from observation as to their necessity. He was glad subsidies to Road Boards would not be discontinued, and that the system was to be extended to the Goldfields. He considered the defence of the harbor should not be undertaken by the Provincial Government. He admitted it should be defended. He trusted that the reserve asked for would be granted to friendly societies, for the value of the ground would be small to the Province, but great to the societies. The societies did an incalculable amount of good. The proposals in regard to the Lunatic Asylum were humane, and it was gratifying to find the Executive had not neglected moral matters, as they had turned attention to those cases of incurable insanity, He was glad the Government proposed to open the Hospital to all medical practitioners, as medical practice was necessary for the safety of all classes. He con sidered that the Hospital should be placed under trustees, as the public would contribute more largely. He would support a Harbor Trust. He approved of the system of selling land on deferred payments, but saw no reason why the system not be generally adopted, instead of confining it to 30,000 acres. He had not made up his mind as to the suggested increase iu the price of land. Throughout the address there was a wise breadth of view that was most refreshing, and contrasted very favorably with previous addresses. He did not know whether the Superintendent had more light or more experience, or that he had selected advisers who had larger or more extended views ; but the Council might fairly and thankfully congratulate themselves that the document was superior in tone and quality to any that had preceded it. _ It depended upon the course the Council took whether he should say anything more as to the last clause. He had no reason to object to the clause.

Mr Hutcheson rose to order. The Speaker ruled Mr Fish in order.

Mr Fish would not go largely into the question, as it might cause personal feeling. He was of opinion the Executive were equal to any that ever sat on those benches, and ho question of personal difference should be associated with their names. They should be judged on their merits, and stand or fall by them. He trusted the time of the Council would not be frittered away in useless discussion, but that they might proceed at once to the consideration of the matters shadowed in the Superintendent’s Address. , Mr Reid rose to move an amendment to the reply just moved. It was not his intention to follow the hon. member in the remarks he had made. He might compliment him on ftjs speech, and the Council npgljt well qe gjad his accession to their nuipbcis. The reply prq ; posed was the nearest possible approach to net reply at all, and the lion, member would have done himself justice had he expressed no opinion on the subject of the Address, for his actions and opinions did not correspond; but as he had expressed his views, he would not object to other's expressing theirs. There were two points he wished to remark on : the debit balance at the Bank being entirely cleared off, and spending money more freely. If there was a deficit at the Bank twelve months ago, it showed the Executive twelve months ago were spending money freely. The hon. member’s arguments destroyed themselves. Had the hon. member had more experience, he would have known that all districts-that contributed towards public works received subsidies to the extent of the Government’s power, but if for private benefit, it would not meet the approval of the Council. Mr Fish explained that he did not wish to convey such au idea. _ Mr Reid did not think he did. _ His object in rising was to move the following amendment :

“ That this Council is of opinion that the appointment of the gonllen-vu at present occupy - ing the Government benches, and their retention of office, is in direct opposition to the system of responsible government sanctioned by the Council; and this Council hereby records its i rotest against any Government being appointed to, of holding office under such circumstances.”

He might state that he undertook to move that amendment, much against his feelings, at the request of a large number of members who had given him a large share of support. He would give a few reasons why he thought the House bound to support the amendment. At the outset he wished to divest the question of a personal aspect, and to keep out of sight that he himself was in some degree mixed up with it. He would deal with it purely in its constitutional aspect. He would not advert to matters which took place which led to the dismissal of tjie late Government, except by saying that if good grounds had existed for that course, he contended no reason was shown why the sins which ought to have been borne by that individual alone should have been visited on his colleagues, who, like himself, were appointed with the concurrence of the Provincial Council. But what took place when the Superintendent dismissed the head of the Government ? Certain gentlemen of Dunedin had been asked to form a new Government. IT his colleagues won 14 have agreed to act with those who had opposed them, they might have obtained a position in the succeeding Government. The only proper course was to have relegated to his own remaining colleagues the reconstruction of an Executive ; and if they did not meet the approval of the Superintendent, there was the legitimate and proper course to take—to appoint another Executive, and immediately summon the Council. Instead of that, a number of gentlemen by one means or another got together, and notwithstanding a pressing request that a session should be held, ami questions of great importance were to be dealt with, the request was treated in a supercilious manner, and they proceeded to exercise the functions that the Council would never have agreed to trust them with had it been In session. A case had transpired with the Hon. Mr Waterhouse, who thought it his duty to resign office. What would the members of the Assembly have said if his Excellency, instead of asking his colleagues to make new arrangements, instead of sending for Mr Fox had sent for Mr Stafford, ami requested him to construct a Ministry, as matters of great importance were to be dealt with forthwith. Would not the Assembly have resented that ? Most undoubtedly, although his position was more irresponsible than that of the Superintendent. • It was, therefore, the duty of the Superintendent to ask the colleagues of the late Ministry to form a Ministry and convene the Council If it was objectionable not to take that coune, bow much mors to

was it that the present Executive had beer taken from the Ministry m the Coimcil and were untried men. Notwithstanding the laudations of the hon. gentleman, he ought to have given some reason why they should have been placed in the prominent positions thei now held. Had there been no other reason for calling the Council together, the fact of the Waste Land Act having to take effect in January, and that a new Hoard had to ho appointed was not only sufficient justification but an imperative reason. He heartily concurred in his Honor’s opinion, that the weak point in the Land Act was the appointment of an irresponsible Board. His Honor had opposed that 3 in the House of Representatives, and said it was improbable that the Legislative Council would agree to an alteration. That •was another reason why the Council should have been called together. (The hon. member member read His Honor’s reply to the request to convene the Council.) But was it understood by the Council that His Honor should dismiss his Executive, and appoint those who had not the confidence of the Council? they had rather the new Land Act should not become law; and then the Council was told, with a degree of modesty,—we have it in the correspondence—that Mr Turnbull and his colleagues had taken office on the following conditions “ To give the new land law, which will shortly come into operation, a fair trial; and to endeavor to get the Waste Land Board composed of competent and unprejudiced men, likely to administer the Act fairly and impartially towards every interest throughout the Province ” The trial the Act was to got was a very negative one. The least they could have said was that they intended to make the administration of the Act a complete success , and with regard to the appointment of those competent and impartial men, he would take the opportunity of saying a few words which might not be out of place. The inference he gathered from that extract was that previous Boards were partial and incompetent. It appeared to him that the Government of the day were of opinion that if the Council bad the opportunity of making the appointment they would still have had incompetent and partial men. Past Boards might be pa rial and incompetent, but their actions would compare favorably with the vacillating action of the present Waste Land Board. J heir opinions were only public, anil not private, and he thought it probable the acts of those competent and impartial men would involve the Province in litigation that was very likely to be successful. Other matters led him to conclude the Waste Land Board was not acting with heartiness, for notwithstanding they had advertised that persons might take mi the depasturing licenses in the Traquajr Hundred, they were told by the Waste Land Board they would not further take the matter up, although the matter had been settled by’ the innholder with the Government. If the Council negatived the resolution he proposed, it would affirm one of the most dangerous principles that had ever been adopted by anybody dealing with such large subjects as that Council deal with. In the correspondence that passed between the Superintendent and the members who wished to convene the Council, hit* Honor said that the principal function of the Council was to vote monies, and that he was unable to see the public benefit of expending L 2,000. He contended it would have been beneficially spent in appointing a Waste Land Board approved by the Council, and consequently by the Province. If appropriation of revenue was a chief duty of the Council, there was greater reason why the Executive left in power should bo in power when the Council met. If there was a necessity for his being dismissed, there was no necessity to dismiss his colleagues, so that the money voted should not be at the caprice of the Superintendent of the day. Many illegal acts had been committed by the Executive; <or contracts had been advertised for and tenders invited in which the Superintendent and Executive exceeded their powers. The Provincial Secretary : Name them. Mr Reid could not at the moment, but contracts had been called for works not sanctioned by the Council. The last paragraph of the Address spoke of responsible advisers. lo whom were they responsible? His Honor retained the name “responsible,” but they were as responsible as the Waste Land Board. His Honor thought they should be responsible, and the Council was of the same opinion. Then the Address said they had been reluctantly induced to take office; but there were two or three members who had taken office on the most trivial occasions, and he regretted to say he had been instrumental in removing them pn other occasions, and should have to do so at present. He thought they had shown gieat desire for office, instead of reluctance in accepting it. That was commendable, and he should be glad to see others ready to assist the Superintendent. Under the guise of public good great hoaxes were committed. It was a sense of public duty that compelled the Superintendent to dismiss his previous Executive, as well as the present members to accept office. Public duty covered a multitude of sms. According to the member for Dunedin, the Address was the handiwork of his Honor’s Executive, and they said; “Weare administrators who have Conducted the affairs of the countiy a long time; we possess the confidence of the country. ” But he thought the' verdict of the Council W.ould be : “ Whether they jossessed the confidence of the country or npt, the Council would npt submit to it? fujiqjiqns being interfered with in the' way in which it had been done, without saying whether it; approved of the change.” Some admonition had been given not to waste time, and therefore he would not trespass further. He regretted being pressed into the position of having to move a resolution likely to disturb the members of the Executive, but he might take courage under that phrase “ public duty.” He did not see why sacrificing themselves for the public should be the privilege of one side of the House only. Whai he did was from a sense of duty, and at the request of a large number of members who wished him to do so, Mr LI'MSDEN seconded the amendment: The hon. member for the Taieri had expressed his own ideas. The Council owed to its selfrespect to protest against the mode in which the Executive were installed. The Council knew how the matter took place—the contest which took place on the land resolutions; who fought for and against them in the Assembly; and the initiation of that measure seemed by right that of the late Ministry. The great question before the country was, the settlement of the countiy; it hud always been and would have to be fought in the Council. He understood his Honor’s address to provide for settlement on deferred payments. He spoke of land designed for payment for railway construction, which was the only compact block left for agricultural settlement. If that land were set apart for such a work it would fall into thehands of large proprietors. It was well known that the land was valuable, and the present landholder was prepared to take half of it himself; so that under the circumstances that policy was hardly deserving the approval of the Council, The large increase of revenue was owing to special land sales in Southland, where not less than LIOO,OOO had been realised last year. It was not likely, therefore, that the revenue would continue. The land had been taken up by largo proprietors for no other purpose than to shut up settlement. Unless the Government secured every block available for settlemont they would not be doing their duty. He saw 2,500 acres proposed to be sold m various places on deferred payments ; but was the Council sure it was selected as being really first-class land ? Some proof should be given that it was likely to secure settlement. Would the new Land Act have a fair trial ? Should it turn out that a great portion' of the land was poor and' unfit for ;settkmeut, it ; would be a great argument against it.- -As to the amount of public works proposed to he carried out, it was natural for a new Government to show what they could do. Mr Thomson considered that out of courtesy the Provincial Secretary should have at once replied to the speech of the hon. member for the Taieri. In his opinion the constitutional question should be settled before discussing other topics in the Address. That Address he concluded to he that of His Honor’s Executive, for he spoke disparagingly of the Waste Land Board. In the House of Representatives he used hjs endeavors to retain the clause in the Act providing for a Waste Land Board, us formerly constituted, but was unsuccessful. He had given that opinion in his Address, but it was understood not to he that of his Executive; therefore as he was not present to reply, it was hardly fair to criticise it. The present form of Provincial Government was of such a mongrel character, that the sooner the Superintendent had a seat in that House the better, to shew cause why he did so and so. He decidedly disapproved of that clause in the Address in which it was said, “ I feel sure they possess the confidence of the countiy, and, I trust also of this Council.” It seemed to imply, “ I do not know what you think, but I know what the country thinks.” It was not a fair position for the Executive or the Superintendent to take. The position he was inclined to take was that the constitutional question should be settled before considering other matters. It divided pafurally into two parte, first, the action

»f the Superintendent with regard to Mr Reid. L’he correspondence between them was a mriosity in its way, hut he did not propose to leal with that. Party feeling ran high in the Touse of Representatives, and there was much n it that would not have been said by either side ad it cooled clown. It was not for him to say ‘.hat the action of the Superintendent was ilegal, for no doubt ho had the best legal advice •m the subject. But if it was not a properly constituted Executive, the Waste Land Board was not properly constituted. No doubt, therefore, he had the highest legal advice. In the o'd country, strictly constitutional questions were not subjects of legislation ; but the Provincial Council did not abstain from Legislating on thorn. The first Ordinance was an Executive Ordinance, which, < by the practice of Bp gland, was unconstitutional. No monarch in England had done so arbitrary an act. But as there were Executive Ordinances, the Council must, to some extent, be guided by them. The second clause in the Ordinance of 1861 as follows :—The administration of the Provincial Executive Government is hereby vested in the Superintendent, who shall act only by and with the advice and consent of an Executive Council, the members of which shall be appointed by the Superintendent, and hold office during his pleasure. The Superintendent, when present, shall preside, and shall have a deliberative, as well as a casting vote in all its acts and proceedings, and no act or resolution of the Executive Council shall have any effect unh ss two members besides the Superintendent be present, and in the absence of the Superintendent from any cause, a member of the Executive Council, to he chosen by themselves, shall preside in the place of the Superintendent. That was the ground on which the Superintendent acted. A Deputy-Superintendent was a](pointed before his Honor left Dunedin, and Mr Reid appointed one of his colleagues to perform his duties; so that both gentlemen were in Wellington simply as members of the House of Representatives. They had no right to interfere in the affairs of the Province, being far removed from it. Of course they were able to pull the wires ; but the Superintendent had no right to call for advice on any matters regarding the Province. If the action of the Superintendent of dismissing Mr Reid because he was a member of the Colonial Executive Averc correct, It was utterly inconsistent, for the Act equally applied to the case of Mr Bathgate. He was a member of the Colonial Legislature, and whatever the hon. member at the head of the Government might say—which he evas sorry to hear, in the face of evidence in black ami white —he was ipse facta Provincial Solicitor, and ought to have been dismissed from that office. The only way in which he could resign it, according to laAv, Avns by resigning his position as a member of that House. The second aspect of the dismissal of Mr Reid was more objectionable than the first. There might have been reasons for dismissing him, but the Superintendent immediately afterwards called on the hon. member for the Peninsula to form a Government. He had been hut a short time in the House, took an active part in many questions, and -was generally in a minority. He proposed certain constitutional changes, but only a few members voted with him. He moved certain resolutions on the Waste Lands Act, but so far from parrying them, he did not even call for a division ; yet he was invited to form a Government. As a matter of courtesy, a member of the Reid Government should have been asked i.o torni an Executive. It was clearly a duty to call the Council at the earliest opportunity, to see whether the Administration "had its confidence or not. The Queen, under such circumstances as the resignation or death of a Prime Minister, would have summoned her faithful Commons ; and it Avas the duty of the Superintendent to have asked the advice of his Council as to whether the Executive possessed its confidence. He believed there were grave doubts Avhether the Waste Land Board Avas a legal Board. There were certain gentlemen in the House who had never resigned or were gazetted out of office—or at all events they claimed to be the Executive, and a clever lawyer might raise the question in connection Avith the land, whether the Executive was legally constituted. Runholders might raise the question Avhether the Board was legally constituted, and if not, their acts would be illegal. Of course au Act could he introduced into the Assembly to set that right; but the proper course was for the Waste Land Board to resign. If the Council carried a vote of want of confidence in the Executive, it would be equivalent to a vote of want of confidence in the Waste Land Board, and if they Ayere men of right spirit they would resign. If they did hot, they woidd loAver themselves in the estimation of the country and in their own. But that was not the question. Did they resign, it would never be' knoAvn Avhether the Waste Land Board had the confidence of the Council and the country. Mr Cutten proposed the adjournment pf the House to two o’clock to-morrow (this day), as there were many members absent, and it would be unfair to them to adopt a resolution that might be important, without their concurrence. The Provincial Secretary moved fjhe. adjournment of the' House to ' to-morrow "(th(s day), at tiro o’clock, to permit the attendance of absent members.

Mr -Cutten withdrew his motion in favor pf that of the Provincial Secretary.

The Provincial Secretary might simply state that flic aiqendmpnt p_f tiic bun. member for the Taieri had taken the Government by surprise, and that was an additional reason why they wished an adjournment. Mr Shepherd drew attention to one matter which might influence his vote. He said Mr J. C. "Brown had gone about the countiy stating that Mr Bastings got into the Executive by reason of his support, and in order to take care of the other members of the Executive; and that he was in treaty with the Opposition members to support them again with a view to getting Mr Bastings into the Executive, should the present Administration he unseated. No doubt, when the debate was resumed, both Mr Brown and Mr Bastings would explain.

Mr Reid was amazed that the Government should be taken by surprise. He was under the impressiop they could expect no other motion than what had been moved. The House adjourned to two o’clock to-day.