POST-SESSIONAL UTTERANCES.

Evening Star, Issue 3175, 24 April 1873, Page 2

POST-SESSIONAL UTTERANCES.

MR REID AT MOSGIEL.

Last evening, Mr Donald Reid, M.H.R., M.P.C., addressed his constituents at half-past seven o’clock, in the Drill Shed, Mosgiel. There was a large attendance. The chair was taken by Mr Andrew Todd, who, in a few words, in troduced Air Held.

Mr Rkiii said he had much pleasure in meetii>y his constituents, in order to give an account or his stewardship during the past twelve months, Perhaps he ought to have met them earlier; but in the first place reasons of a public nature in some degree precluded him from doing so, and latterly the harvest ami other matters had delayed it. Although some disadvantage might result through coming bo late before them, as he might bo repeating much that had boon already told, in other respects it might prove advantageous, as he was able to compare notes with some who had preceded him. The last time he met them lie expressed the opinion that the majority of the members of the House of Representatives had been returned, pledged to support the public works ami immigration measures of the Government, and that they regretted being so pledged, and the state of parties when the House met seemed to justify that impression. When the House met there was much dissatisfaction in regard to the administration by the Goyerument—there ■were doubt and distrust, and. in his Opinion, the fears entertained were well-groundfid. From what transpired afterwards, there was reason to believe that the large sums of money bon rowed, and which were to be a burden iipon the country, were not economically and judiciously expended. Those feelings were not confined to the opponents of the Government; they were shared in by some of their supporters, amf led fo what had been called the meeting of Superintendents, They ami the Provincial officers met and formed an opposition to the Government, through a desire to endeavor to obtain control over the expenditure iu favor of the Provinces, in order to expeml_ th*. money more economically. He believed various motives influenced those who took part iu that movement. On the one hand there were known supporters of the Governmon, who, by the course they were taking, sought to save them from the dilemma iu which they were placed. On thc.othcr hand there were known opponents, who desired to save the Colony, knowing that cadi Province would share in the burdens laid upon them. A resolution was prepared and laid before the House by Mr Curtis, Superintendent of Nelson, as follows : - “That, in the opinion of this House, it is expedient that the Colonial Government, without divesting itself of responsibility for the proper conduct of works authorised by the General Assembly, or of the sole control of all moneys voted hy Parliament, shall a\ ail itself of the services of the existing provincial organisations, ami that the duties of Resident Ministers and General Agents of the Colonial Government shall, in their respective Provinces, devolve upon the Superintendents ami Executives as agents of the Colonial. (ipverniiient, unless otherwise determined _ by the Colonial Government upon its responsibility.” He did not quite see how that resolution was to be given effect to ; because, on the one hand, it insisted on the Colonial handing over the administration of the Public Works and Immigration Act to the Provincial authorities, and on the other the Colonial Government was responsible to Parliament for the proper expenditure of the money. It was therefore on his recommendation that the last two lines were added to the resolution, so that in particular cases they might bo able to refuse to hand over the administration, u hen the resolution went before the House it was received in a half-hearted maimer, and in order to save defeat, it was got rid of by moving the previous question. That motionbeing disposed of, parties took their proper sides iu the House. Mr Stafford was requested to bring forward a , string of resolutions expressing want of eonfi-' deuce in the Government, which led to a pro-1 tractcd debate. The course he took in those resolutions led to Ids receiving gre.it abuse in all parts of the Colony, but he was convinced he was justified in it. Owing to reports current in the ('olony, and from information lie had icceived, he regarded it his duty t<> ask for information regarding the Southern Irunk and Mataura Railways. In July, very soon after ho arrived in Wellington, lie moved “That a copy of the engineer’s estimates, in detail, for the linos of railway, Invercargill to Matanra, and Dunedin to Ralclutha, be laid on the table. Also copies of any offers received by the Government' for the construction of the whole or any portions of said lines, and of the contracts entered into, giving names of contrac-: tors and schedule of prices in each case. ” j

Tn speaking to tVuvt motion, tlio Minister for Public Works, asked if he would lie satisfied with abstracts of the contracts, hc- • nuso otherwise a great length of time would Gapso before the information could lie given. On the Bth August, not having received the information, he complained of its not being supplied, and two days afterwards it was laid before the House. He desired to explain that his conduct was not influenced by the motion of want of confidence. It was entirely and purely a desire to know the contract;', entered into in regard to railways, to enable the Government io explain the rumor:; current on the 0~0 hj ind, and to clear themselves or to enable the House to express their opinions with regard to them. It was needful to en‘cr into the matter somewhat full',', for iinnv false statements had hem made in regard to it, and especially hy Mr Heaves. That gentleman a bed for the specific charges against the < roxeinnv iiv. It had reference only to two radways in Otago- the Dunedin and Olutha lino, and the Matanra. In order to disprove Hies? charges, Mr Peeves brought forward Mr Webster’s evidence. He found that the ( dutlia line had been let to Messrs Brogden for a sum of L14‘2,000, with an additional sum of LI 835 as maintenance for three months. How did’ it come that there was a new estimate for the Hue ? A careful estimate was made by Mr Blab- District Engineer, on the 4th December, 1871 ’ giving the cost for the line complete L 257.500. He stated in the House that four contracts were lot under Mr Blair’s estimate, which was L 52.400, showing a saving of L10,2m „v about 20 per cent. Had the remainder ot that line been let on similarly advantageous tonus, there would have been a total saving of L‘sß 257 which would have made the total cost of the ’line L 219,243. He might be told that the increase in the estimate was ou mg to the rise in the price of iron; but it was unnecessary to make new estimates ou that account', because thoColony paid for the iron in England, and a commission of five per cent, on cost of permanent way and rolling stock. I he engineer’s estimate of contracts previously lot was 1,52,400. Messrs Brogdeu’s contract was LI 12,000; maintenance for three months, LI 835 • and permanent way, rolling stock, and stations, LU0,940 ; making a total of 1>287,175. Deducting from that L 10,257, the savings on the contract let by open tender, the net cost was L 276,918, as against a cost of L 219,243, or a difference of L57,()75, and if from that was deducted L2l, (550 to cover the rise m iron, the loss to the (killmy would be L3(i,025. He asked the Government to explain those matters. The explanation was that “at the time the estimate was marie, theie wcie no woiking drawings in existence of the bridges along the line and there wore two very important and expensive iron bridges, and a large number of minor bridges, which required carefully estimating for. They know what working drawings were. They were supplied to engineers and contractors ns they proceeded with the work, but it was futile to say that Mr Blair relinked working drawings of bridges before they were constructed. He was connected with the late Mr Paterson Ml the time that railway was under consideration, some nine or ten years ago, and u as in a position to judge of the cost of the bridges without' working drawings. When he told honorable members that he was told no engineer would proceed without such data, All Blair estimated the cost of the railway at L 5 000 per mile. It was, however, a haphazard estimate ; for he had over-estimated the cost of the tunnels by L 21.000, and under-esti-mated that of the bridges by nearly a similar amount. Mi Beeves made a somewhat plausible explanation, but one of the tunnels was in a contract previously lot, and the other m Mr Brogden's estimate. It followed, therefore, that if tiie tunnels were over-estimated by L 21,000, and one that was let previous to Jibe Brogden contract was over-estimatedby L 7,000, that in Messrs Brogden’s contract was at die same rate over-estimated by L.13,000, winch would go a long way to cover the increased cost of the bridges. He would pass on to the Mataura railway. He found the earth work, ballast bridges, rails, and other things set down at L 45,003, but it was let to Messrs Brogden at L 50,097. Ho said, when making those remarks in tiie House of Representatives, if ho was in error it was for honorable members to correct him. ’ He believed the work was actually let by Messrs Brogden at lower prices than estimated hy the Government Engineer. He thought from those circumstances lie was justified Tn taking the course he adopted, and he would not have been fulfilling lus duty to the inhabitants of tiie Colony had lie done other•wise than ho did. He wished to do Mr Ixooyos tiie justice of saying he made an explanation also with regard to the Mataura Railway. After Mr Bruuton’s estimate was sent in, it was taken and gone over again by Mr Carruthers, the Engineer-in-Chief. In fact, the Government scut him with Mr Brogden s engineer to fix a fair scale of prices. He (Mr Reid) said it was a most unfair position to place an engineer in. He ought not to have been bi ought into direct contact with a contractor. The Government should stand between him and the contracting power. It was his duty to say so-and-so was a fair contracting price ; but to bring the two engineers together was a most unfair position to put an engineer in. (Cheers.) To Mr Brunton’s estimate contingencies were added, L 8,950, contractor’s profit L9OO, ami a very large sum —some LB,OOO or 1.10,000 for Various other items : items for cost of plans and other things not customarily seen in other contracts, The Lon, gentleman desired him (Mr Reid) to go into details. He felt them had been a mistake in the contracts, and that the Government were responsible for it. Hn did not charge thorn with mal-administration, but, at all events, with great want of tact and ability in carrying out those very responsible duties with which the House entrusted them, lhat was the summing up of all he charged them with, and had there been any justification Would it not have been put forth. 11 He would next refer to what Air Webster said after ho had examined the charges and found them disproved. Mr Webster said: “The contract y/lpdi the lion, member for the Taiori referred to, especially, was one that attracted my attention very ifiueh, and I listened carefully to the answer madehy the Hfiri. the Resident Minister for the Middle Island, and-1 aifi Iqath to say it —-I am under the full impression that the Hqu, the Resident Minister, notwithstanding the fact that a particular contract _ had been pointed to weeks before by papers being asked for, and by having had communications made to him to the effect that certain contractors were prepared to enter into a contract and to offer ample security, I say, notwithstanding all these warnings that this would be especially a point of attack for whidi be ought to have prepared himself, it seems to me that the l)ou. gentleman’s explanation displayed a very lamentable ignorance of the whole transaction lie attempted to explain.” “ After a good deal of trouble I (Mr Webster) afterwards obtained from the Government some particulars. I found that although the lion, member for the Taicri had very largely misstated the facts, as to how the contract was let, and the amount lost in consequence of the manner in which it was lot, I must do him the credit to say that he made the misstatements from papers that were laid on the table. It was only by information afterwards obtained from the Resident Minister, and from further jiapers laid on the table, that I could arrive at the commonest understanding of the transaction itself. It was not from any statement made by the Resident in this House that 1 was able to undcistand it. . “ 1 have no doubt lion, members who have investigated other matters will state their impressions. In the original estimate placed on the table of the House, made hy the Government Engineer, the amount was 1.43,000 or 1.45,000, Jt was'afterVvaj.ds estimated by the same engineer’at a sum of 1.03,000,” Ho (Mr Reid) thought Mr Webster was mistaken, Mr Bruuton never made another estimate. “ It then seemed that the Government took the estimates of the first contractor, and had the calculations checked by another engineer, who, by certain allowances in one place or another, altered it in such a way as to justify them in their opinion, in lotting the contract for a sum of 1.8(1,000.” If that was a refutation of hjs (Mr Reid’s) statement, he would lea ve that meeting to judge. (Cheers.) Air Webster proceeded to say : “I am reluctant to say it —and it is with the greatest pain Isay it--that this particular instance has given mo a very strong and confirmed view of the matter, and that is, that many of these contracts have been entered into very recklessly indeed. I have not the least doubt in my own mind that, taking the contractor’s profits, the cost of management, and other little items that might lm‘ jacked i.ait, at Last a sum of J. 10,000 or L 12,000 might have been saved on that single line alone. I take that as a specimen of other things that have occurred, and I think there has been shewn a lamentable want of care.” He (Mr Reid) thought Mr Webster confirmed his opinion that there had been gicat want of ability in carrying out the contracts. He would take further evidence. Mr Vogel s speech was made up of abuse of himself in reference to the Great Southern Trunk line and the Port Ghalmers Railway. It had no bearing on the matter before the House. Air Gisborne said : •‘The first assertion that they were not ou reasonable terms, proceeded from the horn member for the Xaieii Well) sib he has been i

most satisfactorily answer©*! by my hon. colleague the Resident Minister for the Middle Island, and by his own colleague the member for Dunedin, Mr Da (-ligate. Would it be believed that that bon, member, some two or three days before, denounced the action of the (Government, and charged them with throwing large sums of money away ? Hcsaid he was not satisfied with the railway administration of the (Government, in so far as the contracts with Messrs Drogden were concerned.” Well, of course he had a right to say afterwards he was satisfied with the manner in which they were conducted, if lie had changed his opinion. (Cheers.) The statements he made were, however. substantiated. TT<' did not charge the (Government with mal-administration, but want of ability in giving effect to the resolutions of the House. Ito maintained lint tlie charge.' lie made of, nh-letting contracts at prices lower than Mr Drnnton’s estimates, were fully proved, ((dicers.) In the (General Assembly, after Mr Vogel’s accession to power, lie asked that the Government would telegraph to some public body—the Mayor and Corporation of Invercargill, for instance--to ascertain if those contracts could not have been let follower prices. He had had many telegrams on the subject, and was led to believe he had under-stated rather than over-stated the case. Mr Vogel replied ; “The hon. member for the Taieri invites ns to go to the Corporation of Invercargill for an opinion of himself. I shall not do so. I do not think it necessary.” (Cheers.) The reply, it may be shortly said, was that my administration was not successful in the Clntiia railway. That was taken up and repeated by each one in his turn, and he was in future to hide his diminished head, simply because it war. stated that he had been unsuccessful. He said it in the presence of those under whose eyes he had administered the affairs of the Province, that his administration would bear comparison with that of any one who had preceded _ him. (Cheers.) He would state the position of the Province when he took office. He found, on entering the Treasnrcrship, after a period of great prosperity, that the Province was largely indebted to the Dank. Shortly afterwards there was a period of great depression in produce of all sorts —wool was at its lowest • and there were a number of persons unemployed, for whom it was necessary to find work. Further, the land was locked up under illegal covenants, and that was his grand point of attack. How did he leave office? The Province was not one shilling in debt. Ho found the Corporations and Municipalities throughout the Province depending upon the votes of the Council, and he secured them their local revenues, and probably by that measure he had paved the way for extension of local self-government, and the gradual extinction of Provincial Councils. (Cheers.) _ He said those reforms wore under his administration. But had they not been, it was no more a reply to liia remarks than to say his sister had red hair. (Laughter.) It was the language of a schoolboy, and it would be just as much the answer to the remarks he had addressed to the Assembly. That debate brought out some _ pecnlarities in regard to the way in which public men’s minds burs ted with patriotism. He heard one Minister make an excellent speech, express what lie would have liked to say, only in much better language, and with greater eloquence than he could have delivered it. Mr Gisborne made the following observations “ It would have been easy for us to acquire an ephemeral popularity at the expense of the Colony and of our successors : it would have been easy to scamp work and to rush contracts. Wc would thereby have gained the applause of local papers’’--rather hard this on the local papers—“ and have secured the support of those who believe the Colony is made to subserve the interests of their own petty localities—whose gratitude for public services is a keen sense of favors to come, and who regard every Colonial Ministry .as a sponge to be’.squcezed for their own selfish gratification. We take far higher views of our duties as responsible Ministers of New Zealand. We are quite content to meet with passing obloquy and to sacrifice venal support.” When he heard that burst of eloquence, he felt that if there was any truth in the statements then made, he for one -would have foregone the conclusions that had be-n forced upon him previously, and have given his support to that or any other Government actuated by such motives. That was the position required to lie taken up by a (Government; and any Government taking it up would, he could mssiirc them, have his hearty and undivided support. Alas for the weakness of human nature ! After that great burst _ of patriotism and eloquence, what did they think this patriot did? The day that saw his Ministry out of office—that saw liim lose his seat as a Minister of the Crown —saw him also retire from his scat in Parliament—-he would almost say iguonioniously retire —-to his snug billet of Commissioner of Annuities atL7OO per annum: forgetting what was due to the Colony, to the great policy that stood him in such good stead, to his colleagues and his party ; forgetting what was due to his own reputation as a public man. Was it then surprising that his (Mr Reid’s) faith was exceedingly much shaken in the great patriotism of our public men ? Another matter which excited some discussion in the Assembly was the appointments of the General Government, especially their immigration appointments. They would recollect, he had no doubt, that at the time Messrs Birch and Seaton went Home to act as immigration agents, he felt it necessary to enquire about that matter, because lie was somewhat taken to task in the House in regard to it. At the time they were about to proceed to England, the only information he gleaned in regard to the appointments was from the public Press, and he along with others understood they proceeded Home, on private business only, and that if they remained in England they would do all the good they possibly could for the Colony. Such a course would have been perfectly justifiable. Many persons in Dunedin, and no doubt some who were present in that room, had asked him if he had had anything to do with those appointments, because they were looked upon with disfavor. He told everyone who asked him—and hero ho wished to say that he guarded himself against saying anything in regard to the appointments themselves, as to the fitness or otherwise, because he believed they might perhaps be of good service, and he was not discussing the merits of the persons for those appbiiiinjcnjs—■that he had not been consulted ; that he knew nothing about the transactions ; and that he did not know whether they were proceeding Home at the expense of the Colony. But to his surprise, when Parliament met, he found panted documents on the table, and in the correspondence between the Government and Dr Feathcrston, he found Mr Reeves stating “ The object of the (Government in engaging Messrs' Birch and Seaton was to comply with the urgent request of the local authorities.” When ho found that statement had been largely circulated, fie foil it to be his duty, feeling that the truthfulness of _ bis statements to many persons in this Province had been called in question, to state that the local authorities had had nothing whatever to do with the appointments ; that they had never been consulted in regard to them ; ami that therefore it was entirely a mistake. He had been charged with having opposed the appointments, which he had not done, because Messrs Birch and Seaton were political opponents of his. Those who knew him host would acknowledge that he had never been in the habit of favoring in his appointments his political allies, as against those who were his opponents. (Applause.) In fact,die had been blamed by his supporters and friends for having been too stringent in the other direction : he had been blamed on more than one occasion, and, therefore, he felt it very hard to be told in the Assembly that his action in this matter resulted from Messrs Birch and Seaton being his opponents. It was because his truthfulness had been riiljqd ii) question that he did so ; and he did jt in as mild a' rqann.Qr r ; s possible. Mr (Gisborne, in his memo, to the Agent-General, enclosed the appointment of Messrs Tjios, Birch and Jas. Heaton, and Dr Fea thcrston wrote hack to this effect: “ I fear that some misconception as to the terms and conditions upon which M cssrs Birch and Heaton have come to Europe exists between them and the Government, and that I have also failed to glean from the correspondence the real intentions of the Government in regard to them,” Ho then proceeded to state that lie had engaged a large number of agents ■-110 or 120—and that ho had had some difficulty in availing himself of Messrs Birch and Heaton’s services, without interfering with the operations of the local sub-agents. Mr Reeves replied—“it is certain that the Government was first led to believe that these gentlemen intended to go Homo partly on private business, though subsequent correspondence shows this was a niibcouceptuffi. Ij, i? likely, therefore, that Messrs Birch ape] Heaton left Is cvy Zealand under the impression that they were engaged to act exclusively as agents for the Government.” They knew there had been a later scene in this transaction, viz., that those gentlemen were paid L7OO a-year as agents. He did not say whether this was right or wrong; but he did say when appointments of this sort had to be made, there was a straightforward and proper way of going about them, instead of leading the General Government to believe that certain gentlemen were going Horae on private bufciaees, and gentlemen got Home

expecting to have their pa*.B*gea paid by th« Colony, and. to l>e engaged after they were Home. A far more direct and honorable way would be to name the persons, and there should be a business-like and constitutional way of going about it, and the consultation there ought to be when making such appointments. He had said so much in order to clear himself in regard to the action he took in the House in respect to the Birch and Seaton appointments. The result of the debate on Mr Stafford’s resolutions was that the Government were defeated by a small majority—37 to GO —and Mr Stafford undertook the formation of a new Government. Many of those present were aware that it was a very short-lived one. From the state of parties in the House, they were not very sanguine that they would be aide to secure a very strong working majority ; but they certainly had no reason to anticipate, after snob a protracted debate, that members would be so fickle as to soon change their opinions. They had scarcely come into office when they were besieged with questions of all sorts as to'what their opinions were in regard to various matters. And in regard to Native affairs, they were unpatriotL cally besieged with questions, because he contended that representatives and individuals who made a party question of the Native difficulty were not imbued with true patriotic feelingr. It was a difficulty which entailed misery on many of our fellow settlers when it occurred, and could be largely stirred up by the action taken by members in Parliament; therefore he said the use of it to suit party purposes was unworthy of encouragement from the people in the Colony. He saw an article in one of the local papers here, which on a recent occasion had given Air Dl'Lean fulsome adulation for his management of the Natives, in which pointed references were made to some observations by Mr Stafford on his accession to office, in regard to the Natives. The article was a specimen of the trash circulated throughout the country, and the untruthfulness of the paper—the Dunedin JSvexing Star, he thought. It was not surprising if Mr Dl’Lcan should believe that he was the only man who could manage the Natives, when he saw such articles :

“At the meeting held on the last day in January, the present Government, through Mr M‘Lcan, expressed their intention to provide out of the confiscated lands for those liberated prisoners who rendered such good service to us in Dunedin while confined in the gaol here” —these prisoners received praise for what they did in Dunedin, but nothing was said about the misdeeds for which they were confined in Dunedin gaol—“ And the manner in which this has been done forms an equally striking contrast to Mr Stafford’s imprudent and open bidding in Parliament, when he stated broadly that he was prepared to make concessions, apparently to secure Maori support to his Ministry. Again, the same union of strength, conciliation, and firmness has been displayed by the Executive. The offer of Mr Stafford was made at a wrong time, and under wrong circumstances. He wanted support for his administration, and the Maori votes were of consequence to him.” If the Maori votes were of consequence to Mr Stafford’s Administration, he did not bid high enough for them, because they knew very well that one of the Maoris who had voted against the Fox-Yogel Government had on thp second division —he thought he saw Mr M‘Lean looking sternly at him as the division was about to be taken —walked away, he would almost say slouched away with Dir DDLean, and as they knew he had since been rewarded, he (Mr Reid) was justified in concluding Mr Stafford did not bid high enough, if he wanted the Maori support. That same Maori whose vote had turned the scale had become a Minister of the Crown, or at all events held an offica analagous to that. Was it fair that the Government should be besieged with questions as to what they were going to do with the confiscated lands, &c. ? Let them see what Dir Stafford’# imprudent bidding had been. It was to this effect: —

“Then there is the very delicate question of the confiscated lands. The hon. the Native Minister called them an expensive luxury. They have been an expensive luxury. They have cost as many pounds as we are likely to get shillings from them. It is impossible to say all tlrat the Government have done with these confiscated lands, in so far as they have been alienated. I believe 250,000 acres have been given back to Natives alone, besides the quantity given to Europeans. There is a large portion of the lands now in the position of Mahomet's coffin, and I do not see that we could do better in order to promote the peace of the conn try, than to largely divide what remains of these lands amongst the natives, who after fair investigation may be found to have an interest in them. Of course I would make reserves for railways and villages; and where rivers flow into the sea, I would make reserves for seaport purposes. I should then institute a process by which it should bo ascertained who were fairly entitled to reap some benefit from those portions of the confiscated lands at present nnalienated.” The article previously referred to was a sped* men of the way in which reports were circulated in regard to the Administration. He did not say but that the same reports might be circulated occasionally on the other side : far from it; but it behoved the electors to consider very carefully for themselves what they read in the public papers, and not to be entirely guided by what they saw stated in print. Mr Stafford’s statement, just quoted, was preceded by a question by Mr Kelly, the member for New Plymouth, to whom Mr Stafford replied that it was not the intention of the Government to abandon the confiscated lands at all, but to use them for the objects already indicated. He had encountered the greatest difficulty in ascertaining the position of the confiscated land. Mr Kelly asked whether the confiscated land already surveyed and ready for sale would be retained or abandoned. Mr Stafford replied that they would not be abandoned, but would be dealt with in the manner already indicated. If tho giving back a large share of the confiscated lands was to be tho means of settling tho Native difficulty—if such rebels as those lately confined in Dunedin Gaol, seeing the error of their ways, intended to make homes upon it —the wisest thing would be to enable them to return and settle peaceably on those lands ; but in such localities as they would not bo able to inflict any injury bn our white fellow settlers, they ought to be encouraged to take up some of those lands. (Applause.) Wjth regard to public works, the principal matters they had to deal with could be stated briefly. When they came into office they found that, after the construction and completion of the railways already contracted for, there would not be a very largo balance from the loans available, and they were consequently unable to enter upon so many new works as their predecessors had sketched out for themselves, because they believed it would be wiser, more prudent, and more economical for the Colony to push on to completion the -works already commenced, and thus secure some immediate return for the moneys expended. Moreover they foresaw' the probability, he hoped it w r as not an immediate one, of a change in the money market, which might so affect our loans on the market at Home as to prevent us obtaining money for the completion of the lines in progress, lie considered the course his Government proposed was the most proper, and businesslike.. Although he was afraid' of wearying the meeting, he' could not do better thah quote 1 from Mr Gillies’s financial statement what Mr Stafford’s Government intended to do in regard to finance : “ Should I in another year have the honor of laying financial proposals before this committee, I shall set my face entirely against charging any portion of the Interest and Sinking Fund of the Immigration and Public Works Loan to the loan itself. It is true, that in calculating what our railways and other works will cost us, we ought to capitalize interest as a matter of account; but it is not prudent finance, that w'e should evade payment of current and annually recurring burdens, ‘by placing then} upoq loap. so doing, we arc dealing unfairly- by the public creditor who lent ns the money on the faith of the Loan Act, which declared that tho interest was to be paid out of Consolidated Fund Revenue and that the entire money borrowed was to be spent on certain reproductive w-orks ; and we are dealing unfairly by the Colony by limiting tho amount of public works which the money authorised to be borrowed should produce, If a year hence I find the Consolidated Revenue unable to bear these annual charges, I shall be prepared to meet the difficulty by an augment;! • tion of revenue which would properly involve changes in the incidence of taxation, rather than that the Colony should be deceived by the idea that it is getting public works for its borrowed money, whilst it is in reality spending its loans in paying interest upon the loans themselves.” Ho contended they took the proper and statesmanlike course, ip order to properly CRi J * op the affairs of the country; Although it might last for a short time, it would, not last long before the public creditor would insist oa the interest being paid out of the revenue instead of loans. Paying it out of loans was a scandalous violation of the Act, on the faith of which the loans were obtained, viz., that the whole of the borrowed money was to be expended on reproductive works, ana that interest was to be paid out ot revenue. The annual charges this year in CWP

section with the Immigration and Pnblw■ Worke loan would be L120.0M That Involved about throe months that had preceded the year; and the amount would .annually increase. He observed another portion of the loan had been placed on the market, and when it wa-' taken up the burden would so accumulate t>a. the Colony would not boar the increased weight. It would be a question, when the money borrowed came to an end, whence the annual charges came. True, he was told railways would yield a revenue ; but it was unlikely there would be any considerable return for some time to come towards payment of interest on the loans. He might be mistaken, and was aware that indirectly many advantages were likely to bo derived from them. At the same time, the Colony was spending all the borrowed money in the construction of public works, without meeting the interest charges out of current revenue. He looked upon that as an important point as to whether that large scheme should he a success or a failure. It had been broadly stated that some members of the Assembly wished it to be a failure, but he couhl not believe that there was one who desired such a thing. He could not believe that any member would be so malicious. It was the Government who were carrying out the scheme in such a way as not to make it a success, by promising railways all over the country in order to secure votes, it they had done that, they could have remained m office. Hr Stafford was. under no necessity to retire, if he had desired to make the railways a failure. Most certainly there were a barge number of railways that would yield no return, and those would be a failure. Mr Stafford s Government determined on a course of action from which they were not to be turned : that others chose to take a different course was no matter of theirs. They hoped the time would come before long, when the Colony would be governed by a party who bad higher aims than constructing railways to secure votes. (Applause). Mr Vogel brought forward his Avant of confidence motion. fortunately the debate was not of long duration. Every member of the Assembly knew it was a business transaction as to the distribution of votes, and that it was necessary some reason should be given to the Assembly itself and the public outside, why the motion should be brought forward. Mr _ Vogel _ said: “There was a matter with which the interest of the country is entirely bound up, and which must suffer under a Government holding the opinions which I know the Government holdsI allude to tin Californian Mad Service. I can have no hopes that this service will become the success which I am quite sure it might become under the judicious exercise of temper and tact; I believe, Sir, that we shall sec railways carried out to a number of unfinished Rn*a, such as tho .honorable member for Timaru prophesied would ho the case in his speech he delivered before be took qfiioe ; and tfieHj air, vrlien lie lias rwitiocl iKe policy of tile late Government, he will say, “'Here is the result: itiswbjriil prophesied Native affairs in disorder; the Road Boards in the country districts crushed out of life : the the Middle Island sacrificed to a small clique ; the whole colonisation policy made to fail; the Colony brought back to that position fropi which the late Government extricated it. These, sir, are some of the consequences which will arise }f the present Government continue to keep tbeir seats'. ” Of the public reasons a good deal hU been heard, but the private ones were not given until lately. On every side the prospects for the country were gloomy, and he was not surprised they Avere turned out of office. Looking at that dismal picture, there Ayas first tho Californian mail service. He wondered if, on that point, the Government had exercised that judicious temper and tact spoken of Had Mr Stafford been m office, it would have been said it was owing to his not using them that it had ceased. What about unfinished railway*? Ho had given them his opinion, and he thought it would commend itself to their judgment, therefore it was futile to follow Mr Vogel’s remarks. The private reasons had since come to light, Mr Reeves said “ Mr Stafford came into power, and ho mivht say that the reforms he proposed to introduce were mostly of a nominal character. He was forced to admit that he was at one Avith tho then late Government as to their policy, and he took the taic up where the Government had left off, ami proposed to carry it out after much the same fashion.” These two gentlemen contradicted ©f\ch other. One Raid they would ruin the policy : the otlmr, they atoic carrying out the same thing in the same Avay. One must be Arrong. But among all tho members who had addressed their constituents lat-ly, none had given such a severe condemnation of the action of the Government, and as a consequence such a justification of the action that ejected them from office, as their late colleague, Sir F. D. Bell, who, addressing his Invercargill constituents, said: — “ He entertained serious dissatisfaction with the course pursued by the Assembly last year, especially with respect to matters of finance. There must be a change, or the country would bo landed in serious difficulties. He spoke without party bias. Parties now would have to take a new departure. He would distribute a pretty equal share of blame to both in what he would say. In 1871, immense powers Avere conferred on the Executive, and this was perhaps unavoidable then. No one expected a similar attempt to be made in 1872. But both Mr Stafford’s and Mr Vogel’s Ministries proposed to do it.” [He (Mr Reid) was not aAvare of it ; it was the first he had heard of it.] “ Even supposing the original amount proposed to be borrowed had not been enlarged, it would have been an unjustifiable proposal that session. All committed a mistake in the Avay that arrangements were made with Mr Brogden. The action of the House Avas entirely controlled by a dilemma. The Government had made a contract to find data for contracts to the extent of a million in nine months, but the time Avas insufficient, and the details could not be furnished cither by the House or tho contractors. This was repeated in 1872, when it was even more unwise, because a larger amount was then known to he required. He asked both Ministries to bring down estimates, and to let the House discuss them on the grounds of the reproductive prospects of particular lines; but neither did so. Could there be a greater condemnation of the aotibn of the Government than was given in that speech ? How was the action of the H»uso controlled by a dilemma ? Who Avere responsible for 1 it? Was it not the Government, of which Bir El D. Bell had been a Tho dilemma was the eligagemchts with Messrs Brogden. The Government had agreed to find data , but did not within a reasonable time. Why did they not look before them ; why did they not devote their attention to their duties, instead of taking jaunts throughout the country, and neglecting tho duties for Avhich they were placed in office ? Mr Stafford’s Government promised to carry out the reforms indicated in Sir Dillon Bell’s speech ; but he (Mr Reid) was very doubtful whether they would have obtained his vote if the division had depended upon it. He did not think Sir Dillon had been such an unobservant spectator of passing events as not to sec the reforms Mr Stafford’s Government Was carrying out were ‘those he wished to see effected. A great'deal'had been said about the great policy and the brilliant geniii* of the man '■ who invented it. ■ To his (Mr Reid’s) mind it Avas a very bid-fashioned one, had been in operation fifteen years ago and was pursued by all the Australian Colonics and by England. He thought it right to take a little credit for himself and for the Provincial ( ouncil for having moved in this direction. They remembered Mr James Hinith, the Melbourne spiritualist, who delivered such eloquent lectures, which paftcnv'ahls found to hav c been extracted from very uncommon works. That Avas called piracy ; but he was ' not going to say that the Colonial Government Avere guilty of piracy or petty larceny in taking credit fr,r this policy. Ho would read _ resolutions adopted Uy the Provincial ( ouncilm rocard to public Works, and compare It with the schedule of the Public Works Bill, for the reason that ho had been specialty singled out as being obstruction personified —n- clodocnttic obstructionist. On May 20, 1870, the Superintendent submitted the folloAving message to the Council, “The Superintendent, Avith tho advice of the Executive Council, desires to submit for tho consideration of the Provincial Council the expediency of obtaining power at the next session of tho General Assembly to raise on loan a sum not exceeding L(550,000, to he appropriated towards public works as follmvs Southern Trunk Railway, L 400,000; water supply on goldfields, LIOO,OOO ; immigration, 1,50,000 ; embankment of riven, 1,50,000; Oamaru dock, 1,20,000; Waitaki bridge, ifKf,-00y: K aka mu harbor, Lfi, 000; Waikouaiti kferf, 1,8,000; Shag River bridge, L 4,000 ; Lower Mataura bridge, 1,2,000.” The loan was to be devoted to railways, imini gration, water supply to gold fields, kc., which were what the great scheme provided. The Waitaki was being bridged out of the loan ; the Oamaru dock and the Waikouaiti wharf were legacies from Mr Reid’s predecessors. On July 7, 1870, the Colonial Treasurer submitted his proposals. There was a great similarity tietwwh the two proposals, but eo far w prudent

considerations were concerned, he thought those by the Provincial Government Avere tho best. There was no scramble for the money ; the} fixed the Avorks upon Avhich the loan was to no spent. It Avas a great pity that the Assembly had not in the first instance settled lioav the Colonial loan was to he expended. It would have assisted greatly toAvards having only necessary and useful lines _ constructed. But the Province did not go into millions. He did not say tire Colonial Treasurer looked at their resolutions : they were beneath his notice. He (Mr Reid) believed the spirits made a revelation to Mr Vogel, and he adopted it. [Mr Reid referred at some length to tho .. aste Land Act, but avc are obliged to hold over that portion of his speech.] . Mr Ciias. Findlay proposed a votcot thank;and confidence in Mr Reid, Avhich was carried by acclamation. ... Mr Reid, in acknoAvledging the vote, said he f; It grateful that Id* action had met Avith their approval. He had recently scon it stated in regard to himself that his popularity had been short-lived ; that it had been a mere glamour—a “ halo horn of a haze ;” but he was glad to see that those statements Avere not shared in at all events by the hulk of that meeting.—(Applause.)