THE NO-CONFIDENCE DEBATE.

Evening Star, Issue 3003, 3 October 1872, Page 4

THE NO-CONFIDENCE DEBATE.

We continue Mr Ormond’s speech : MESSRS COLLINS AND GILLIES ANSWERED. I now come to a charge made upon the Government by the honorable member for Auckland City West and the honorable member for Rodney, in respect of the roads to the north of Auckland. I did not interrupt tli e honorable member for Auckland Cit.y West when he was speaking, but he has on several occasions made a statement to the effect that he had requested me to delegate the conduct of these works to himself and the Provincial Executive : I have always said “No,” but have hitherto confined myself to the simple denial, I am very sorry the honorable gentleman is not now in his place, and 1. very much regret that he should have made such a statement, because I have a gre>t regard for the honorable member. He met me in Auckland with every courtesy, and gave me great assistance whilst I was in that Province. I may say that although that honorable member has always been ii opposition to the Government, i would infinitely prefer to transact business with him, as Superintendent of Auckland, than with the Superintendent of Wellington. I distinctly state I have no recollection whatever of any proposal, such as I have mentioned, being made to me by the honorable gentleman. We went about the country a good deal together, and it is quite possible that in the course of our conversations he may have referred to the subject in an ordinary way, but that he ever made a direct proposal to me to take over these works, I most entirely and absolutely deny. I have never mentioned the matter to any of my colleagues, which I would have been sure t® have done if I had received any distinct offer, 1 am sorry that 1 cannot allow that the statement of the honorable gentleman is in any way correct. The charge against the Government in the matter is, that whereas L 15,000 was voted last session, to be expended in each year for four consecutive years, co the north of the Province of Auckland, the Government has not expended a sufficient am mnt during the period which has elapsed since the vote was passed. The district to the north of Auckland is very extensive, and the works required are of a a very scattered character. Those works had to be commenced from the vej’y beginning. The surveys and preliminary preparations had to be undertaken and carried out, and unless the Government bad been prepaid to throw away the public money, they could not have judiciously expended a larger amount than they have expended there. They had every desire to carry out the instructions of the House in that matter, and to gjvp to that, part of the country the money winch tiu- had deci fed should be. exPe* :f .( '■ * hjy 't,. t : . c'crff "'. ue i have said, .ill e.,- -pceifl over a large area. A_ eou- . i'Ua ddc i < iTi-’ ii <>f the money will be ,!«.•• ted to the construction of main lines of roid ; I bo remainder will be expended in completing ’be communication between the interior and the magnificent water accommodation which is to be found upon that coast. Honorable members ought to be aware that it was ijuipflssible to do everything at once that’a vcyy large waff have been necessary, and .that I could not dp moretftan has been done. The 'Superintendent' of Auckland has urged that he had a complete staff ready to do the work. When I was there 1 saw some of the work which had been executed by the Provincial staff, which had done some scratching in that part of the country, and I can only say that I should have decidedly objected to the Colonial money being expended in a similar manner. The roads which they had made in one place, instead of avoiding the hills by going round them, went right up to the top of the hill, and down again on the other side ; while the road through the swamp was so narrow' that two drays could not pass each other. The manacem<mt wag i op such as to lead me to l.olievethat the works would ffe well carried out if they were entrusted to the Provincial staff. It is but right that I should state that even if I had understood the honorable gentleman that the works should be handed over to him, I am not at all sure that I should have agreed to anything of the kind, because the House, last session, voted the money entirely upon the representations made by the then member for districts to the north of Auckland, and it w'as understood that a large part or the money should be expended among the Arawa ami Ngapuhi tribes. I am quite sure that the honorable member for the Bay of Islands (Mr Kate e), and the other honorable member for the Bay (Mr M‘Leod), as well as most of the settlers in that part of the country, would have altogether objected to that expenditure being placed in the hands of the Superintendent. I cannot say whether that objection w'as just or not, but the locality is so far away from the Central Government, and the difficulties are so great—the works being so scattered apij. individually so small—that if any reliable guarantee canid be given of good local supervision',’ the Gbvommeftfc in my opinion, take the question into consideration. Something was said about Mr Heale, Inspector of Surveys, who is employed in supervising these works, not being suited to the work, and having no knowledge of the district. 1 have had great difficulty, and have not yet been able to secure the services of an officer mch as I should like to see in charge of those works t I should like to see a head engineer for that district, who would reside in the district, have a general control, and would give all his time to h.s duties, which Mr Heale’s other duties prevent. I must state that Mr Heale lias a thorough knowledge of the district, and, as his time was not fully occupied, I thought it advisable to employ him, to prevent the works being delayed. The honorable member for Rodney then referred to the expenditure south of Auckland, and I am obliged to refer to it, for it carried with it an important conclusion. He eafd the expenditure on the roads south of Auckland bad not been for the bem-tit of Auckland, The expenditure has been mainly in the Bay of Plenty district ami between the Bay and Taupo, at Poverty Bay and various parts of the East Coast, and on the road from Taupo towards Napii r, partly in the Province of Auckland and partly in that of Napier. A very largo sum indeed has been spent in the Ray of Plenty district and the other districts named, and tlie Provincial Beoret.fl.ry- wb a 18 one °f those who are asking that the whole administration of these things should be handed over to the Provincial'authorities—said it w r as not well expended. That is Just what might be expected from a Provincial officer, and the residents in outlying districts must always expect that sort of thing. Those roads open up the very cream of the Province of Auckland, running as they do through magnificent districts on the East Coast, and being the means of connecting Taurauga and j

Taupo, and presently will connect Cambridge with Taupo They are some of the great and important works which I assert the money set aside for roads in the North was specially intended to be spent upon. If those moneys were to be spent in districts in which Provincial interests existed, that expenditure would not be in accordance with the wish of the House. It was intended that the expenditure on road making in the North should be applied so as to open up the country, and thus tend eventually to its pacification ; and the direction of such expenditure must always be held in the hands of tb ; Colonial Government. The honorable member said that Hawke’s Bay was benefited by the expenditure on the Taupo road. I think about fifty miles are in that Province, twenty in the Province of Auckland, and the next is an open plain, upon which some little money has been spent. That end of it was made first, because it was requisite that it should be, for military purposes and the oceupation of Taupo, if the honorable member meant to insinuate that anything like an undue preference had been shown to Hawke’s Hay Province, I ut'.erly deny it. The fact is, that more had been done for that Province before I joined the Ministry than since. If lam to blame at all in the matter, it is not for unduly advancing it. I now come to the Auckland railways. I was told, before the honorable members spoke, that most serious charges were to be made against the Government in respect of the Kaipara Railway—charges which the Government could not answer and which would prove the utter incapacity of the Ministry to conduct such works. The honorable member for Rodney stated that two years were allowed to go by without anything being done. The answer to that is, that in 1870 the Government were empowered to construct the Auckland Railway uuder guarantee, but the Government was not able to get any offer, or to enter into any arrangement upon those terms, and consequently they were not in a position to forward the construction of that railway until after last session, and after the Railway Act of 1871 had given the Government authority to construct that work under the direct payment system. The honorable member f r Auckland City West said that the piece of pail way between Auckland and Newmarket was only started to make an apparent show, but the peal position of the case is Idris’{ whfeu { visited Auckland in January and February this year, I found there was considerable discontent in that Province in consequence of the time allowed to elapse before those public works were carried out. I inquired into the matter, and found that the new working surveys and alterations the Engineer iu-Obief had made in the line to Met cur, which saved very large sums of money to the Colony, required an 'entire

•titeration of the data upon which Messrs Bibgd.n woulu be c il-d on to tender, and the new plans, &c., could net be prepared ior a very considerable t’mel Ihe Engine •r-iu-( hief had to go °n business to other parts of the Colony, and had not time to allow of the preparation of new plans and data until his return to Wellington, and the consequence would have been that the works would have had to stand still unie l s some other arrangement had been made for commencing operations. Honorable member? ape aware that there was power,' under No. 3 contract, to carry on works’ under what is ' known as “ the 10 per cent. ar r aiigemeutthat is to say, the' Government were empowered to call upon Messrs Brogden to construct works for a remuneration of 10 per cent, on the outlay ; works so executed to form a part of an eventual contract, and sums paid were to be taken into account, and deducted from the price to be paid for the whole line. I learnt from the engineers there was some work to be done between Newmarket and Onehunga —a tunnel to bo cut through about a mile and a half from Auckland, which would Lake a considerable time tp complete, and unless fchb tiiuncl and some other of the heavier portions" of the work's within the three miles now in course of construction were commencedj ihe delay in opening the line to On<}hpnga would be very |arge|y increased, the line would not be made available for a longer time than would be the case if these works were constructed in advance. Consequently, f thought this a fair in which to try the 10 per cent, principle, and that is the reason I called upon Mr Brogden to enter upon the works. This is thf, only piep-e q£ work in the Colony that has been started by Messrs Brogden uu the 10 per cent, principle, and I do not Jjedtate to say that, from my personal observations of the working of that system, I have repeatedly and continusly refused to give out any more work under that system, I have told the reasons why that plan was adopted in this case, and I assert it was to the interests of the Province of Auckland it should be dune ; so much so that I would act over again in the same manner if the same case were to arise. Before L leave that part of the subject, I will say the pressure brought to bear, when I was in Auckland, to get the whole line to Mercer let, was excessive. The papers, and notably the New Zealand tfcrakl, both before and after I came way, published articles telling the most ridiculous and incorrect stories, saying that the Government were standing in the way of the Province of Auckland ; that the contractor was yet wo held the contract back, Bealiy the only way in which thp work could have been started was under the 10 per cent, arrangement, and 1 was pressed to make an agm.ni cut on that principle for the whole of the line. 1 did not think that would have been right or fair to the Colony, and would not do it. The House knows that the piece of line from Onehunga to Mercer is contracted for, and we have reason to believe Mr Brogden will tender for the remainder of the line ; ami the sum that has been expended mulev the 10 per cent, arrangement —L22,ooo—will, in such case, be taken as an abatement of the amount of the amount of the contract which will be entered into. (To he continued. )