THE NO-CONFIDENCE DEBATE.
We continue Mr Ormond’s speech : I thought it better to give to the House the whole of the information connected with this matter, although any difficulty which has occurred has originated, as the House v/ill see, in the letter which was written by me on incorrect information. I think the House will agree that, on the advice of the legal adviser of the Government, wo stand in the position of having concluded terms with the Messrs Brogden ; that is to say, that we have entered into contracts to the extent of L 700,000, and that therefore contract No, 2 is cancelled. I. think, therefore, the figures quoted by the honorable member for the Hutt, as beng the amount for which the Colony is liable, cannot be maintained. It may be said that the Colony is liable, or may be liable, in case we fail to supply, within the fixed time, the Messrs Brogden with data for all the railways named in the agreement. With regard to that point, I am glad to state to the House that the Kngincor-in-Chief informs me that if not the whole nearly the whole of those data wilt be in Messrs Brogdcn’s hands by the time required. The common sense of the House will enable it to see that the agreement is to be read in all its parts, and that the Government has complied with the essential conditions of that contract. It now rests entirely with the Government whether or not they give further works to Messrs Brogden. ' While I say this, it must be distinctly understood that the Government consider that whilst we have given Messrs Brogden works to the amount of L 700,000, which is all they can insist on, yet the Colony is hound to offer the other railways to the extent of an additional sum of L 300.000. It is quite clear that the Colony is honorably bound to fulfil the terms of the agreement entered into, which were, that we should offer the Messrs Brogden railway works to the extent of one million ; and that when railways to that extent have been offered to the Messrs Brogden, the Colony will be entirely free of any liability to them, and the Government will submit all further contracts to public tender. I hope I have made it perfectly clear to the House the position the country is in with reference to this matter. It can onjy be a fancy idea to imagine that there can be any liability to Messrs Brogden for non-supply of data for railway works, whilst wc are not obliged to accept their tenders whether reasonable or not. The Messrs Brogden are in this position ; that they have been supplied with data for a number of railways, for which we have contracted with them to the extent nl L 700.000, and they have received data and tendered for a railway, and afterwards withdrawn their tender. We will be able to supply them with data for railways within the time named in the agreement, which it would be perfectly impossible for them to enter upon with the appliances and means they have in the Colony. Supposing this case were made one for damages, there would be no question at all that the Messrs Brogden had not made any preparations, and were not in a position, even if they had any claim, to carry out such works. Sir, the next charge that was made in reference to the Brogden contracts was, that the prices we have paid the Messrs Brogden for the railways have been excessive. The principal discussion in this House has been in respect of the railways in the Province of Otago. I am not going into details in respect to those railways, ns I think my honorable friend the Colonial Treasurer entered very fully and clearly into that matter. Although he failed to satisfy some honorable gentlemen in this House, especially my honorable friend the member for Wallace, and the honorable member for Invercargill, 1 think those honorable gentlemen did not wish to be convinced, and relied upon their own opinions against the opinions of the professional officers of the Government, and against the opinions of gentlemen like my honorable friend the member for Christchurch, and my honorable friend thp member for the 'i hames, who are also professionally able to give correct opinions upon this subject. 1 have generally made it my business to get from the Engineer-in-CMof Ms opinions in respect to those Otago railways, in order that I might briefly state to the House, in general terms, something respecting them. I am not going to enter into figures with regard to these railways. In the first place, Mr Bnmton’s estimate was only a preliminary estimate : it was formed without plans or designs. It was known, when it was examined, to be not reliable, and mciely preliminary, furnished without any of those necessary details of information upon which estimates are properly framed. In corroboration of this, I may say that the vote taken from this House for the Mataura Baihvay was not founded on Mr Brunton’s estimate : that even then, that estimate was considered so unreliable that it was not submitted to this House as the basis upon which it was asked to vote the money for that railway. Objection has been taken that the Government had tenders from firms in Otago for very much less sums than have been given to Messrs Brogden for those railways. Two tenders especially have been referred to: one from Messrs Proudfoot, who tendered to construct this particular line for 7-j percent, below the engineer s estimate. With regard to that tender, the Messrs Proudfoot never saw the data or designs of the works for' which they made that offer. '1 hey had no information in their possession upon which to make that offer, and it was a more “sporting” offer. Of course such an offer was not binding on them, it was well understood that it was, as it is styled among engineers, a mere sporting offer. The other tender, which was from Forrest and Co., who offered to construct that railway, or any other in New Zealand, at 10 per cent, under the engineer’s estimate, must be taken, I think, as equally useless. The House can hardly consider for one moment that really responsible people would be willing to enter into contracts to the extent those gentlemen offered—to the extent of a million—at 10 per cent, under estimates which they had never seen, and which, for all they knew, might be altogether wrong, and might be altogether too low. The thing is so utterly unreasonable to the minds of all business min that it ought to be dismissed from consideration at once, and those tenders ought to be pot on one side as being something which ought not to have been used by any member of this House upon which to hang a peg. One honorable gentleman, I think the member for Invercargill, stated that Mr Brnutup’s estimate was far higher than what the work could be done for. As I said before, that js the opinion of a non- professional gentleman. The' Fngineer-in-Chief, whose opinion the Government at any rate have to a great extent to depend upon, still adheres to the conclusion which he came to before when he
informed the Government that these terms were fair and reasonable. Ido not think the House should be swayed by unprofessional opinions upon subjects like this, against opinions from those professional officers who are employed for the good of the Colony. '1 here are two other smaller matters in connection with these Otago contracts that were dwelt upon, and out of which a good deal was attempted to be made. One was with regard to sleepers for those r.iilways, which the honorable member for Invercargill, I think, said could be got for 2s. The opinion that I have to give to the House about that is, that the experience which the Government is learning, and which the Messrs Brogden are learning also, upon this subject, is that the supply of sleepers in the Colony is exceedingly limited, that the price is rising very fast all over the Colon} 7 , and that at the present moment 8s is very much nearer the average cost all over the Colony than the price named by the honorable member for Invercargill, and that, too, before contracts to any large extent for the supply of sleepers have been called for. At the present moment the supply is very small, and altogether insufficient for the demands of the country. Three shillings is the price which is paid at Lyttelton, Rangiora, Dunedin, and Balelutha. There was also a point raised by the honorable member for Invercargill with regard to level crossings, which he said used to cost something like L 25 on the Invercargill Railway. The explanation in respect to that is very simple indeed, it appears that the level crossings which are in use in the part of the country from which the honorable gentleman comes, have not what arc called “cattle guards and sign-posts,” which are included in the crossings, and which cost alone L 32. That is the answer to the assertion of the honorable member, that we have paid excessive rates for level crossings. The practice of the Government with regard to all those contracts has been this : we entered into an arrangement with Messrs Brogden under No. 3 contract, under which we were honorably bound to call upon them to tender, as soon as we reasonably could for railways to a certain extent as the data was prepared. The data was handed to them ; the engineer at the same time furnished the Government with an estimate of the cost. When the tenders were received, the estimates of the engineer and the tenders of Messrs Brogden were prepared, and in no single case have the Government accepted any tender for any railway except after mature consideration, and on the advice of those engineers on whom it has to depend. I canv r.t see how the Government could have pursued any other course. Any unprofessional man in this House, who might have to undertake works of that kind, would, to a very large extent, aided of course by the result of such inquiries as he himself was able to make, have to depend upon what professional advice he had at his disposal. That has been the practice of the Government. The kngineer-in-Chief, after having read, and in many cases heard, the opinions expres led by honorable members of this House, is of opinion that the prices paid to Messrs Brogden for their tenders are fair and reasonable, and he does not think that any undue profit will accrue to those gentlemen on any of the contracts they have entered into with the Government.
(To he continued, )
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Evening Star, Issue 2994, 23 September 1872, Page 4
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1,818THE NO-CONFIDENCE DEBATE. Evening Star, Issue 2994, 23 September 1872, Page 4
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