PROVINCIAL COUNCIL

Evening Star, Issue 2883, 16 May 1872, Page 2

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL

Yesterday.. The Speaker took the chair at two o’clock. PETITIONS. Mr Mervyn presented a very numerously signed petition from the Mount Ida district relative to the deviation of a river. The Hon. F. D. Bell presented a petition from the inhabitants of Southland, prayina for assimilation of the Cattle Tresspass Ordinance with that of Otago. A petition was presented by Mr J, C. Brown from John M‘Kay, praying for invest fixation of his complaint. _ The petitions were received. REPORTS. The reports of Select Committees on the petition of Cook and Thomas Murray recommended that the Government take Cook’s case into consideration, but that T. Murray has no claim. APPOINTMENT OF JUDGE WARD. The Provincial Secretary said that no memoranda nor special correspondence were in existence. The cost of District Courts were not now paid by the Province ; and in consequence of Judge Gray’s time being so much occupied, a District Judge had been appointed for Timaru and Oamarn. The statement was received with laughter. ORDERS OF THE DAY, The Hospital Ordinance (Southland) Repeal, third reading was postponed, as were also the second reading of the Otago Roads Ordinance Amendment Bill, the Cattle Trespass Ordinance, and the Counties Bill. BOAD BETWEEN OAMARU AND AWAMOKO, The House went into Committee on Mr Sumpter’s motion ; but on the motion of Mr Reid, reported progress, and the next sitting was fixed for Monday next. THE EDUCATION QUESTION. The Hon, F. D. Rell would have preferred the question being divided, l)ut as it was not so, he should address himself to the question. He was not sure, however, that this House was tho proper place for its discussion, for year by year the questions to be decided by the Council were becoming fewer. The control was gradually being taken out of their bands, and sooner or later the General Assembly would take education out of their hands. He cordially agreed with the first proposition of the hon. member for Waikari. It was evident the Council was charmed by his eloquence, and he therefore considered it was better that time had been allowed the House to consider the subject. He thought the hon. member’s object was to establish a purely denominational system. To this he should give his decided opposition. The time had gone by for that, and the subject should be lopped at in the view of the aided school clauses. He quite agreed that there should be religious faith for national purposes. He did not agree with what Mr Mervyn said when he read extracts from school books, for reference should have beeu made to the efforts made by the Education Board. For his part he considered the work of education in Otago was more creditable than that of any other Province except Nelson. Turning to the report of the Education Board, he found steps had beeu taken to procure school books with which no reasonable ground of complaint could be urged by Roman Catholics. Ho would, however, draw the attention of the Government to the question whether the Shorter Catechism should be learnt in the school or not. The practice had been adopted in one school, and defended by the teacher. Such a school was clearly denominational in its teaching, and a fair ground of complaint by the Roman Catholics. In a paper put into his hands he found that a circular from the Secretary of the Education Board, stated that the Board’s resolutions implied that no religious catechism or formulary should be taught in the schools. He would ask the member for Waikari if, under a democratic form of Government, the people would ever be placed in such priestly domination as inlreland? Even in Roman Catholic countries the tendency was to limit the authority of the priesthood ; but we must not forget that religious education in the Roman Catholic faith is made a point of conscience, and unless this is recognised, there could be no national education. It was not so much the duty of the State to provide means of education as to see that the people were educated, and so long as that were secured the less the interference by the Government the better. In Nelson, education was denominational ; yet because there was no attempt to stir up religious strife, tberp was no animosity. There had been no soph excitement in Otago prior to Bishop Moran's arrival 5 but how could he be blamed for that ? As a chief of an ancient Christian denomination, be merely strove to establish his own faith. Bnt it was impossible not to perceive that religious difference would henceforth be the rule, and not the exception. He could not join in a vote denying the Roman Catholics participation in the educational vote. Was it impossible to devise a national non-sectarian system ? In his opinion that was provided by the Education BUI of last year, which would be brought

on and passed this year or next. He believed the aided school clauses were satisfactory to the chiefs of the Roman Catholic denomination, and he hoped the Council would pass some resolution affirming them. He asked the House to consider first what the State was called to do, and secondly what means should be adopted to do it. The Hunan Catholics, governed aud judged by the priesthood, were dissatisfied with the Otago system. He was aware many of the Roman Catholic laity did not agree with that view ; but dissatisfaction did exist, and it was worth while to put an end to it. It was opposed to the faith and practice of the Roman Catholic Church to give a secular education. It was opposed to onr democratic ii stitutions. So long as the Church of England and HomanCatholics existed it would not be. It was better that children should be taught somehow, than not at all j and it would be better to devise some means for that purpose. He, however, differed from the form of words of Mr Macassey’s motion. He would call attention., to tnd safeguards proposed by the aided schools clauses. They were that in those*'schools secular education should be given four hours a day, subject to inspection by the school inspectors, on condition that the denomination provided part of the expense ? Was there a child who fifteen years hence would not he grateful for secular education provided by the State, rather than purely sectarian education ? It was impossible to prevent priests and parents giving sectarian education. He was surptised at the argument that aid given to one sect would entitle ninety-nine others to aid. Thete were but two great divisions, leaving out heathen— Roman Catholic and Protestant—(cries of “ Oh ! oh ! ”) —and he entreated the Council to rive support to a system by which they could agree to send their children to the same schools. Except in populous citiqa Hie aided schools clauses were not likely |o'ba called into requisition'. Their number would be trifling, and would never be asked to a, dangerous extent. In the country districts the children of all denominations would, as now, go to the district school. Would they be content that the Douay Bible should be read 2 (An hon. member: Withdraw them both.) It was impossible in the present state of feeling. So surely as resistance, was made to the action of the Churches of Rome and England, so long would they strive to sustain their ascendancy. Denominational schools would be established ia the centres of population, but they could not be established in poor country districts. Dr Webster, in speaking in opposition to the original motion, stated that, in bis opinion, the only system of education that would be generally acceptable to the people of the Province aud Colony was the national or secular one. The “ aided clauses,” so called, be thought would lead to the establish? ment of opposition schools, the children in which would grow up to look down upon each other, and ill-feeling and prejudices would be engendered thereby. As to imparting ‘ ‘ religious instruction,” he believed it would be very easy to make arrangements by whiefy the clergy of the various denominations plight impart that far more effectually than at pre sent, which, in many instances, it was a farce to call “ religious education ” at all. Mr Cutten pointed out that the system which would grow up under the aided clauses would be essentially a denominational system ; and under this system it woqld be impossible to have high schools, &c., for the higher education of the general youth of the Province.

Mr Macaasey, speaking in reply, would acknowledge the courtesy with which he had been treated by hon. members generally while the subject he had brought under notice had been discussed. The hon. member having reviewed in detail the main arguments pnt forward during the debate, appealed to hon. members to' restore the harmony which once existed between tlie Protestants and the Catholies, by doing justice to the latter in tbe direction his motion indicated. The question was then pat, and all the words after the word “ that ” were struck out from Mr Macassey’s motion, upon the proposition to insert the words of Mr Mervyn’s amendment. The Hon. Mr Bell moved that the first part of the amendment be pat first. Mr Mervyn requested permission to withdraw the amendment as a whole, which was negatived. Dr. Menzies moved the amendment, of whifib he had. given jpticg, Mr Thomson objected to what he termed the preamble of the amendment. The reason assigned by the mover of the amendment - that as tbe General Assembly was about to take up the question of education, it was inexpedient to disturb the existing Ordinance—did not recommend itself to mm (Mr Thomson). If the Council affirmed the proposition, it might be construed by the Colonial Government that the Council did not take up the question because it was about to be taken by the General Assembly. It might also be construed into an o.piniog that the Council did not want to take it up. It was playing into the hands of the General Assembly, which, as they had been told that day, had not only taken public works out of the hands of the Council, but now wished to take away the control of education. His opinion was, that the less the Colony bad to do with the education system of the Province the better. In order to teal the feeling of the Council on tbe point, he moved that the words— * That inasmuch at the Colonial Government has undertaken tc bring forward a measure to provide for edn cation in the Colony”—be omitted. Mr Reid hoped that the Council would not agree to the amendment of hon. mem' ber for Clutha, nor to that of the hon, member for Mataura. To agree to then would be refusing to listen to the reques' made on behalf of the Roman Catholics and he was not prepared to do that. Hi had been charged during the debate of bar iug disposed of the question in a few curt sen tences. He considered it would he an ad vantage if the speeches were a little mor curt and clearer. His remarks the previon evening had been few; but he thought tbe; could not be misunderstood. The argument used by Mr Macassey and Mr Bell tool away the ground upon which the formel asked the Council to make provision foB aided Mr Bejl said they could n(B prevent the clergy from giving yeligioqß instruction to schools, if they chose to do S(fl The Council did not desire to prevent thefl doing so ; they said it was the duty of tlfl clergy and not of tbe State to do ao. N<B could he understand the illogical remark fl Mr Maccassey in reply, that although powfl was asked to establish denommationfl schools, it did not follow that they wonld ifl established. Why, then, all the clamor obtain the power, if it was not to be exefl cised ? But he believed it would be exefl

cised in many instance*, and lead to a system of intolerance and bigotry, and result ULa most disastrous state of ill-feeling in the several districts. Mr Thomson’s amendment, as was one by Mr Lumsden, was negatived on a divi81°Mr M'Glashan referred to a personal attack made upon him by Mr Macassey in the afternoon. He had before staged that he feasOn to cliang® His views m refer6BC6 to aided schools. During his candidature for Eoslyn he said he was in favor of a national system of education ; and it happened that at one of his meetings the question was asked him what he would do in regard to Roman Catholic schools. He answered : In circumstances where a large number of Koman Catholic children could be gathered together, he thought it would be reasonable to aid Catholic schools ; but where population was sparse be did not see how it could be done, and then he thought Catholics should take advantage of the common schools. Since then he had learned from Bishop Moran that Catholics could not take advantage of those schools, and that was one of his reasons for changing his views Whilst he thanked, and always would thank Bishop Moran for aiding his election, the support was unsolicited. Independent of the support of Eoman Catholics, his majority •was a large one, and was more than the hon. member for Waikari had ever been able to get in a contested election. Mr Macassey, in reply, said the hon. member had laid himself open to criticism in not furnishing an explanation of his change of opinion. His other remark, however, was very ungenerous. Although he (Mr MacasBe y) had not yet been successful in a contested election, he trusted at all events that it would never be imputed to him, as it might perhaps be imputed to some members, and to gentlemen outside the Council, that he had ever been false to any pledge made by him. -The amendment of Dr Menzies having been negatived, the Hon. Mr Holmes brought forward the one of which he had given notice “ That this Council recognises the right of all classes in the community to participate in the grant for educational purposes, and the Council is of opinion that this can be secured only by the adoption of a purely national non-sectarian system of education.” Mr Thomson construed the amendment fnto an expression of opinion that the Council had not previously recognised the right of all classes to participate in any educational grant. They should pause before making such a confession. What was meant by the words “national, non-sec-tarian ” ? Did “ national ” refer to the kind qf teaching that took place ? He thought National meant Colonial. [Mr Holmes assented to that definition.] Then the Cpuncil admitted that it did not approve of the Provincial system of education, and went in lor a Colonial system. Was the Honse prepared to make that confession also? In the face of the interpretation of the hon. member for Oreti, he cautioned the Council against sending to Wellington such a vaguely worded resolution. Mr Macassey thought the interpretation of the hon. member for Oreti would go further. The amendment recognised the right of all closes in the community to participate in an educational grant. What grant? It must of necessity be a Provincial grant. According to the hon. member they were to provide Provincial funds for a Colonial system of education. The hon. member would be the first person to repudiate such an interpretation. Mr Turnbull moved the following amendment :—“ in the opinion of this Council, the educational system hitherto in operation in this Province is substantially just to all classes of the community, and that the Council will view with regret any alteration, whether initiated here or in the General Assembly.” ’ The amendment being put was negatived, the voting being ayes 13, noes 27. On Mr Tolmie’s motion, the debate was adjourned. AGRICULTURAL LEASEHOLDER’S BENI PAYMENTS. Mr Meryyp’s motion authorising the Government to reduce the rent for agricultnral leases from 2s fid to Is fid in the event ef the Land Bill not passing next session of the Assembly, was carried. This Day. The Speaker took the chair at two o’clock this afternoon. PETITION. Mr Bastings presented a petition from the Town Council or Cromwell respecting a sale of land. REPLIES, In reply to Mr Bastings, it was stated that the Government were not prepared to spend LIO.OOO in the construction of public wprlis in the district in which 45,000 acres of land were sold. It was sold to reduce an overdraft, and if LIO.OOO were spent in that district, other districts would have to be neglected. In reply to Mr Smith, it was stated that two sheep inspectors had received notices that their services would not be required— Messrs J. K. B. Thomson and H. N. Campbell. Seniority in the service and necessary qualifications were not overlooked, but it was intended to do the whole duties of the department with three inspectors. MOTIONS. Mr Hickey moved that in the opinion of the Council the gold duty should be reduced fid per ounce each year until it was entirely abolished. He considered it an oppressive tax upon an industry that had not been fostered and encouraged by the Government. The goldfields were in different circumstances from their earliest days, and the improved communication with the interior rendered the tax unnecessary, Mr Shepherd considered that, If the whole proceeds of the gold duty was spent in improvement on the goldfields, it would not be objected to. The Provincial Secretary moved as an amendment that the gold duty should be reduced. That was ail that could be done, and probably the General Assembly would agree to tljat. *My M'Glashan considered that the number of Chinese paying the gold duty should not be forgotten. He was not prepared to vote for the motion on that ground. The amendment was carried, with an addition proposed by Mr G, F. C. Browne, that his Honor the Superintendent be requested to transmit the resolution to the Govern r. On the motion of Mr M‘Demid, a select committee was appoieted to inquire into the working of the steam dredge. [Left sitting.]