PARLIAMENT.

Evening Star, Volume IX, Issue 2687, 27 September 1871, Page 2

PARLIAMENT.

(FROM OUR OWN CORRESPONDENT.) Wellington, Sept. 27. Last night there was a long debate upon Mr Macaudrew’s resolution for the reduction of salaries. The House divided, when there were—ayes, 24 ; noes, 37. The Otago votes were—Ayes : Bathgate, Brown, Oalder, Cantrell, Macandrew, M’Gfllivray, Murray, Reid, Reynolds, Steward, Thomson, Noes : Haughton, M'Lean, Mervyn, Tairoa, Webster. In Committee of Supply at last evening’s sitting, the debate was very acrimonious, and continued until 3.15 this morning. The House adjourned without passing a vote, the objections raised being against proceeding with the estimates, until a statement of the proposed public works was laid before the House. This is expected to be made to-day. THE VACCINATION BILL. On the 9th, a considerable .portion of the afternoon was occupied in the House of Representatives in the consideration of the Vaccination Bill. Some sensible and most amusing observations were made in the course of the discussion. Mr Bunny objected to the clauses at the end of the Bill, one of which, the 13th, provided that no person should enter the public service unless he had been vaccinated, while the 15th prevented children who wore not vaccinated from being admitted to schools. Why, if this principle were carried to its full extent, said the hon. member, the next thing we might hear of would.be that no man could marry a wife unless he were vaccinated', or that people should not go to church unless they were vaccinated. If such a principle were affirmed, he would carry it further and propose that no person should become a member of that house who was not vaccinated, Mr Andrew pointed oat that Mr Bunny alluded to what he supposed to be an absurd practice, but it was one that was very rigidly enforced in the northern countries of Europe, where marriages are not permitted unless I

the parties -are vaccinated. He knew a case in which a London brewer wished to marry a Norwegian lady, and he bad to get a certificate of vaccination from London before he could carry out his wish. Mr Wakefield thought the clause relating to entry to the public service should be omitted ; it might prove inconvenient oa a change of Ministry, say, where it might be possible that all the incoming Ministers would have to be vaccinated before t-ey could take their seats. On the Government side of the House, Mr Reynolds knew that there existed a great objection on the part of many people to have their children vaccinated at all, and he hoped the Government would take means either to procure a supply of pure lymph from England, or to keep a few healthy cows themselves from which to obtain a constant supply. He did not wonder at the opposition on the part of those who objected to vaccination, because be knew of many cases in which vaccination had been the means of transmitting diseases. Mr Hall was in favor of some sort of compulsory vaccination. He looked upon vaccinated persons as sources of danger to the community. Mr Fox admitted that the clauses would have a deterrent effect on the sending of children to the schools if the compulsory clauses of the Education Bill were expunged ; but he could not help remarking upon the contrast in the opinions of several hon. members, who now told the Government they should not attempt to bring about compulsion by a sidewind, while in the discussion on the Education Bill they had been told that in applying compulsion “there was nothing like a sidewind.” The hon. member for Nelson had told them .that “a little mild compulsion ” was the very best thing possible. They had been referred to the Prussian and the American systems by hon. members, but the characteristics of the people of those countries were entirely different from ours. 1 he 'Prussians were compelled to observe the law ; the A mericans were not compelled—they had sufficient enthusiasm in them not to need compulsion. But the Englishmen had not the enthusiasm, nor would they be bullied. There was the difficulty. He thought they would either have to enforce the law with a strong arm, or the enthusiasm of the people would have to grow very much. After a good deal of discussion, the 13th clause was expunged, and the 15th carrieud with slight amendment. THE EDUCATION BILL, . Mr F> x said he was gratified at the feelings expressed towards himself and the Government, , With regard to the appointment of a Minister of Education, it was not the intention of the Government to appoint a new Minister of Education in addition to the Ministers who already sat on the Government benches. There would be no additional expenses ; the duties would be undertaken by a Minister in addition to the portfolio which he already held. He altogether demurred to the view that the Minister of Education should be independent of the Government, and should hold his office for all time, subject to good conduct. It would place him beyond all control; such a course would be opposed to the general rule that the responsible administrators should have the control of every officer of the State. The next point was the definition of the districts, which are at present conterminous with the provincial boundaries. Hon. members were running away with the idea that the provinces were to be set on their legs again by the erection of provincial boards. The Government wished to interfere as little as possible with the existing machinery. They thought they would be actin ' very unwisely by making any violent eruption ; and if they had to take any division, there was none that they could take so easily as the provincial boundaries. The next point was a very important one—the constitution of the boards. He thought, as far as he had been able to gather from the opinions of hon. members, that the elective was the right one, but he thought he saw advantages, so long as Provincial Governments existed, in bringing the boards into communication with the Provincial Executive. Reasons had been given to him which induced him to believe that the communication would be desirable, and he proposed that the boards should consist of the Superintendent and Treasurer of eac’j Province, and so many members, from five to twelve, elected by the school committee. They would be the connec ing link between the pulse of the province and the school board, and be had reason to believe that such a blan was not an unwise provision. He would favor the idea of a compromised board of this sort. Then, as to the school fees. There were many reasons in favor of the payment of fees. It interested the parent in the education of his children, and it was, a very considerable source of school revenue. In framing Mr Foster’s Bill, it was found unwise to abandon them, and it had been decided to retain the provision for the payment of fees. In America no school fees were charged, but he thought, on the whole,they should adopt them ; that either fees should be charged, at such a rate as the board might appoint, or that the Nelson system, which imposed an annual rate of LI on every householder, in addition to a head rate of 5s for each child not exceeding four in any one family, should be adopted. He would now approach that very ticklish, and, at the same time, fundamental point of -the Bill—the subject of the aided schools; a point on which he expected as great a difference of opinion, and as narrow a majority as on any other portions of the bill; still he hoped they would have a majority, because it would be most pnwjse to sweep them away; it would be unjust to shut the door against them to the extent they were provided by the Bill. More than that, it would give rise to such au amount of opposition among a large section of society, that it would render the working of their school system as a general, national system almost impracticable. It was ntot a system that could be worked in the face of a violent opposition ; it must have a very large majority among the people. On these grounds he hoped the aided schools would not fail to pass through the House. The next series of clauses w>is the conscience clause, and the necessity for them would depend on the question whether the aided schools and the Bible clauses passed; if these conscience clauses were thrown out, then there would be no necessity for the aided schools. If the House passed one'tbey would require the other. He would [.ass them over and come to the consideration of the Bible clause—the clause which prescribed that the Bible should be read daily. Several hon. mem here,-some of whom he scarcely expected to do so after the maimer in which they had expressed themselves, did object to the use of the Bible in schools. He had endeavored to get at the* reasons for objecting to the use of that book being read to the children in the schools, and

tbs reason«,as far as he could understand were three: the first was the impropriety of such a course; the second was the unreasonableness of such a thing; and a third was that it would have an injurious effect to endeavor to teach children dogmatic theology. He agreed that it was even fruitless, unnecessary to attempt to instil dogmatic ideas into the minds of children of tender ages, and as far as that object went he quite concurred that it was objectionable ; but it did not follow that if the Bible were read in the schools that it should convey one dogmatic idea. A thousand passages might be permitted to be read with great advantage in the presence of the most • innocent minded child. -Experience proved that there was very little fear of schoolmasters adopting dogmatic teaching; they would be found to be quite content to give the- reading merely—were not in the habit of giving dogmatic teaching—they were not likely to attempt to proselytise. Objection was made on the ground that there were erroneous translations in the Bible, but he. thought that entirely fell to the ground; he had read Bishop Colenso’s work, and it did not weigh very much with him. There were many passages that would form the staple of a child’s education, and he thought the objection a very weak one. Another objection—and as a conscientious one he regarded it with sll respect particularly if it were used by a father towards his own child—was that there were passages in the Scripture which ought not to meet the ear of a child. But that was purely a matter of selection ; selections might be made that would obviate that objection altogether. He could not help remarking on what lie could not call hypocrisy but a feeling of affected delicacy in such an objection, and he-confessed it was with some amazement he heard it urged by several hon. members ou behalf of the children of the working classes ; the very persons who insisted on the giving of nothing • more than a merely elementary teaching, and opposed anything in the shape of a classical education, and yi t were, at the same time, scraping together every farthing for the purpose of giving their -children this very classical education they so much objected to, or at any rate the highest education they could afford to pay for. He was sure, and he thoroughly agreed with the hon member for the Hutt when he made the statement, that the Bible was the book of books, add he trusted the House would not be a party tb prescribing that the Bible should not be read in schools. Another point on which there was a difference of opinion was as to compulsory education, and the general opinion of the House seemed to be that it was desirable ■if it was possible to cany it out, yet that in the present state of 'society it would be very difficult to enforce the observance of that portion of the Bill. He corf curred in the objection, and proposed to follow the course adopted in England, namely, to leave it to tne local boards, to settle, whether, in each particular instance, compulsory education should be decided on or not. If the Government carried the Bill and the feeling of the country was that it was a good one, he knew no reason why they should not carry it out, so that he hoped the House would allow the compulsory claus. s to stand. Then came the question of rater. A great difficulty rested on the fact that the different Provinces had different systemrj They must expect that every portion of the community -would object to fresh taxation, and he must confess that as regarded the property rate he was opposed to it, because it was unjust to throw upon the landed estate the whole burden of the community ; personally, he would object to its being levied solely on lauded property. This matter might also be left to the local authority in each province, although he would propose that it should be a household rate, because there was the argument in its favour that two provinces had already adopted the house! hold rate—Nelson and Canterbury, Mr Fox read from a return to show what the result of a household rate might be. There were at present in New Zealand 65,1*29 houses, of which, to use a Hibemianism, 2,014 are tents, and that left 63,115, after deducting the tents, liable to pay the rate, which, at LI per house, would produce a corresponding amount in money. At presen*, the total amount collected for school expenses in all the provinces was L 37.672, Of course, in those provinces where the rate was at present paid it would not touch them at all, Mr Fox • read the amount of school expenditure in such province for the past year, showing the amounts, according to population, which should have beeu spent for school maintenance in each Province, and the actual amounts paid. Many of .the Provinces were lamentably low, Marlborough—where there was only one schoolmaster, and that one a lady—having spent only about L4O, while a head rate would have required the expenditure of over LIOOO ; while Otago, which by the same ratio need not have spent more than L 15,000, had spent 18,000. From these returns, Mr Fox said it would be seen, that where the people were willing to tax themselves a sufficient amount could be raised for the educational requirements of the whole Colony. Having touched upon the direction the Government would take, and the amendments they would consent to adopt in the Bill, he would leave it with the Houseand if it were so modelled as in their opinion it would be desirable to withdraw it, they would do so, and allow the people of the country to discuss it during the recess.