HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

Dunstan Times, Issue 967, 29 October 1880, Page 1 (Supplement)

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

Hansard report of debate on question raised as to Mr V. Tyke's conduct in disobeying the Acting-Chair-man of Committees. Mr Kelly —I have to report, Sir, that the honorable member for tho Dnnstan has been guilty of disorderly conduct in Committee of Supply, in refusing to obey my ruling. Mr Tyke.—May I be allwed to explain ? Major Atkinson I understand, Sir, that the Chairman of Committees has reported to you that the honorable member for the Dunstan has been guilty of disorderly conduct, and I .should like to know whether, under these circumstances, he can address the House at tho present moment. Mr Tyke.—l am perfectly willing, Sir, to be judged by your ruling; but I claim the right to be allowed to explain what took place in Committee. I found that the honorable member for Hokitika (Mr Seddon) had not voted on a division that took place, and 1 called the attention of the Chairman of Committees to that fact, whereupon the honorable mom vet for Hokitika rose in his place and said, “ I vote against Mr Tyke.” Now, there was no question about “ M r Tyke” before the House; and I ask, subject to your ruling, that the honorable member for Hokitika be called upon to decide on which side he wishes to record his vote. Mr Kelly.—l understood the honorable member for Hokitika to m"an that he voted with the ’‘Noes, ” and f accordingly put him down as having voted with the “Noes." 1 informed the honorable member for the Duns'an of that, and called upon him to hit clown ; but he would not sit down, and became disorderly. The Acting-Speaker.—When the honorable member for the Dunstan was informed that the honorable memher for Hokitika had recorded his vote with the “ Noes, ’ In- ought to have been satisfied. MrSeddon.—l did say that I voted "against Mr Tyke.” ami, no doubt, from that (he Acting-Chairman of Committees understood that I intended to vote with the “ Noes.” Mr Hall.—The point we have to consider is, that the honorable memher for the Dunstan repeatedly and deliberately refused to obey the ruling of the Chair. This is conduct which will load to the utmost disorder in this House if it is not dealt with in some very marked manner. I .submit that the honorable member should be repi imauded, or that such notice should be taken of liis conduct as you, Sir, may think proper. I do uot know whether this is the proper time to move that the member for the Dunotan be adjudged guilty of contempt. Mr Titt.—l was sitting close to the member for the Dunstan when the disturbance took place, and I think there was some misapprehension in the matter. It is quite true that the Chairman of the Committee announced that tho vote of the honorable member for Hokitika would be recorded with the “ Noes,” and it is also true that many other members were speaking at the same time, so that X doubt whether the honorable member for the Dunstan heard what the Chairman of Committees said, f should most unhesitatingly accept his ■ word. 1 here was such a noise going : on all round that I can quite believe < that honorable members thought the honorable member for the Dunstan . was defying (he Chair; but 1 have ( a strong conviction that the honorable i member for tho Dunstan did not hear ' the Chairman’s voice when he gave his ]

J ruling. It must not be forgottei: that Mr Kelly’s voice is not a strong - voice and I hope the House will not . lose sight of the fact that there LI'oom for doubt in tho matter. Mr Speight.—-Whilst I agree with the remarks of the Premier with re- , gard to the conduct of the member for > the Dunstan, I must at the same time ' saythat I donot think itwould be right l of me to permit any censure to be passed upon him without saying that I stood behind the honorable gentleman when he raised the point of order as to the vote of the member for Hokitika not having been taking in a proper manner, and I did not hear Mr Kelly call upon him to sit down Mr Kelly’s voice is very weak, there was a great deal of confusion at the time, and I do not believe that the honorable member fur the Dunstan would willingly defy the Chair. Mr Swanson —ls it not usual, Sir. when a member’s conduct is brought under review in this manner, that ho should be asked to withdraw 1 J. always understood that, when an honorable member was charged with misconduct, it was customary to ask him to leave the Chamber until the decision of the House in regard to his conduct had been anived at. 1 remember that upon one occasion, when Sir Julius A ogel used a certain expression, he was asked to withdraw; and so was Mr Luckie upon another occasion. However, I think this matter has gone far enough, and I hope we shall proceed to the next business. -Mr Montgomery.—l submit, Sir, 'liat when tin; Chairman of Committees reports that a member has been guilty of disorderly conduc, volt should call upon that member to give some explanation. Then, if that explanation is not deenie i -satifactory, the Premier usually makes a motion upon the subject, and the member charged with misconduct is requested to retire. The Acting-Speaker.-X am listening to the description of what took place, before 1 address the honorable member for Dunstan. Mr George.—l should like to be allowed to state what X heard in tho part of the House in which I was at the time of the disturbance. After the division had taking place, and before the doors were unlocked, the member for the Dunstan called the attention of the Chairman to the fact that an honorable member had not voted. At first the Chairman took no notice of the honorable member for the Dunstan, who again called the Chairman’s attention to the fact that the honorable member for Hokitika had not voted. The Chairman then rose and asked the member for Hokitika whether he had recorded his vote. I am not certain whether the honorable member for Hokitika voted at all; but when ho rose in response to the request of the Chairman ho said, “ I vote against against Air I’yko.” X heard nothing more from the Chairman of Committees who seemed to 1110 to ho engaged in altering the division-list. Jhe honorable member for the Dunstan again called attention to the matter, and the Chairman of Committees then said that the honorable member for Hokitika had voted with the “Noes.” But the honorable member for Hokitika did not say that bo had voted with the “ Noes,” and the honorable member for the Dunstan appealed against the ruling of the Chair. Mr W. J. Hurst.—X was standing close to tho chair, and I heard the Chairman of Committees say, “I will record the vote with the “Noes.”’ There might have been some misapprehension iu the matter : but I think

ii tlie subject ought now to be ullowec g to drop. it The Acting-Speaker.— I have lit w tie doubt that the difficulty has arisei through some uiisappreheusiou on the hj part of the honorable member for the i- Dunstau as to what the Chairman ol r Committees said. I am continued in e that view by the knowledge that at t times it is extremely difficult to hear e in this chamber. However, the t honorable membei for the Dunstan - has resisted the ruling of the Chairr man. In doing that he was wrong, - and I have no doubt he will express - regret for having done so. If ho exr presses his regret that will end the r matter. I call upon him to do so i now, before 1 proceed to further cx- , tremidos. Mr Pvfce.—lnstead of expressing I regret I say that I was right. I asked the Chairman of Committees to de- . maud from the honorable member for t Hokitika tire way in which he intended i to record his vote. The honorable - member for Hokitika has not up to ■ the present moment declared which ■ way he intended to vote ; and I should i not be defending the rights of the peo- • pie—whose rights I am sent here to > defend—if [ did not demand that the • votes of members of this House be i properly recorded. I shall not ex- ■ press regret. 1 simply demanded that ; the honorable member for Hokitika • should be called upon to vote, and, in ■ doing tha f , I conceive that I am defending (he privileges of the members • of this House. 1 say that it is incumbent upon every member of this House , to say which way ho votes—‘'Aye” or • “No”-.and [ask the honorable member for Hokitika to stand up now and say whether he voted or not, Mr Tyke withdrew. Mr Hall —I believe the course which it is my duty to propose is to give the House an opportunity of expressing its opinion upon the conduct ut the member for the Dunstan. and ( wish to do so in as lenient manner as is consistent with the maintenance of the dignity and authority of this House. Ido not wish to do anything more than that. But, the authority of the Chairman of Committees having been resisted, and the resisting member having declined to express regret, his conduct cannot be allowed to pass without notice. I move, That the honorable member for the Dunstan (Mr Dyke), in resisting the authority of the Chairman of Committees, and refusing to apologize when called upon to do so by the Acting-Speaker, has been guilty of highly disorderly conduct, and deserves the censure of this House. Mr Montgomery.—l think the honorable member for the Dunstan does not quite understand m what way he has been guilty of error. Ho seemed to misunderstand whether the honorable member for Hokitika had voted or not; and. if ho were now to say that he mistook the action of the Chairman, I think the matter should he allowed to drop, Mr Seddon —I must express mv regret at what has occurred. I think it is quite possible that, when a number of voices called out “Sit. down,” “ Sit down,” the honorable member for the Dunstan may have mistaken the voice of the Chairman lor the voice of one of the many members who called out. I feel satisfied that the difficulty has arisen through a misapprehension on the part of the honorable member for the Dunstan. Mr Beeves.—l think that if any one is to blame in this matter it is Mr Kelly. The honorable member for the Dunstan called attention to the fact that the honorable member for Hokitika did not vote. Mr Kelly, us Chairman of Committees, took no

‘d notice whatever of the -honorable raemhei for the Dunstan ; and I take t- it that it was the duty of the Chairn man of Committees to ask the honor's able member for Hokitika, or any ie other member .who did not vote, how )f he intended to vote. He failed to do n that; and I maintain that, if the t Chairman had done his duty and had r called upon the honorable member for e Hokitika to declare how he voied_ a then this difficulty would not have - arisen. The whole head and front of the offending, I consider, rests with s the Chairman. Mr Hall.—l am quite willing to e adopt the suggestion of the honour--0 able member for Akaroa, that the - honourable member for the Dunstan should be more distinctly informed ? that the offence tor which he was re 1 ported to the House is that ho did - not sit down when called upon to do r so by the Chairman of Committees. 1 Mr Pitt—l cannot help feeling i that we have been running great risk > ol doing an injustice to the honouri member for the Dunstan. There are I several things to be considered in - connection with this matter. The > lirst is this : ihe honourable member ' for Hokitika, it appears, was asleep, : and. having been wakened and asked - bow he intended to vote, he said, “ 1 L- vote against Mr Pyke,” Now, he i having been asleep, there was nothing i to show him how .Mr Pvke had voted, - and the question arises whether the s Chairman of Committees was jusiiiiea in putting the honourable mem- ' ber for Hokitika down with tbo “ ’ 'i here is also this point to - be considered : that the- hmiourablo i member declined to express regiet because he had a strong conviction that lie had done nothing wrong • that he was merely defending what i he conceived to be the privileges of • members of this House. - Mr .Speight. I thoroughly sympathise with the Premier, because l bebeve he has dune everything ho : could do to preserve the dignity of t this House, but iu this particular ’ I think wo should adjourn, for ■ the reason that a largo majority of the members now present are more or ■ less tired out. We cannot discuss the matter with a clear brain. lam smarting under the feeling that a i sentence is being passed upon an honourable member who has done .something unknowingly. There was a regular storm of turmoil in the Committee, and the honourable member for the Dunstan may well be forgiven if he did not hear what the Chairman said. Mr Hall.—l again say that Ido not wish to press my motion ; and I therefore trust some course will be devised which will enable it to he made clear whether or not the honourablo member for the Dunstan acted under a misapprehension, Ixv cause 1 should 1 e sorry to press such a motion against any honourable mem ber. Mr Gisborne.—l would rather tho House should adopt my proposal ; because, it the honourable member for tho Dunstan did not hear tho Chairman of Committees order him to sit down, it will give him an opportunity to explain. My proposal is, That, in the opinion of this House, tho honourable member for the Dunstan should have sat down when called upon to do so by the Chairman of Committees, and that, if he knowingly refused to do so, he should be reprimanded by the Speaker. Mr Speaker directed the Sergeant, at-Arms to inform the honourable member for the Dunstan that his, attendance was required in (he House. Mr Pyke then attended at his place Lu the House,

The Speaker.—l have to inform the honourable member for the Dunstun that the Chairman of Committees ■has reported him to the House as having been guilty of disorderly con--clncfc in Committee, and as having refused to obey the Chairman of Committees when he was ordered to sit down. The following motion with regard to his conduct lias been sub onitted to the House ;—“ That the ■honourable member for the Dunstau (Mr Fyke), in resisting the authority of the Chairman of Committees, and refusing to apologise when called upon to do so by the Acting-Speaker, has been guilty of disorderly conduct, and deserves the censure of the House.” Before that motion is put to the vote, I wish to give the honourable member for the Dunstan an opportunity of explaining his conduct, and of apologising to the House if lie lias been guilty of any irregularity. Mr 'Pyke.—l am very thankful to the House for having taken the judicious course which it seems to have taken.. The circumstances of the case are these : When the House was in Committee of Supply I drew the attention ot the Chairman to the fact that on a particular division the honourable member for Hokitika (Mr Seddon) had not recorded bis vote. I repeatedly drew the attention of the Chairman to that fact ; and ultimately he said, “ I will record the vote with the ‘ noes.’” I told him that the honourable member for Hokitika had not stated that he would vote with the “hops,” and that he had simply said. “ I vote against Mr Fyke,” I asked the Chairman to do that which I consider it was his duty to have done—namely, to demand from the honourable member for Hokitika how :he intended to vote. That was all 1 wanted to know. The vote would

liavo made no difference to the result 1 simply asked the Chairman to pn

the question to the honourable member for Hokitika, “ Have you voted !” 'l'he Chairman declined to do that. It is true that he called upon me to sit ■down on several occasions, and I did sit down ; but I challenged his ruling, and on the next chance I again called attention to the fact that he had not ■done his duty. What is to become of this House if a member cannot call attention to the fact that another

•member has not voted 1 I decline to plead guilty while lam innocent. 1 found that a member had not voted, and 1 -called the attention of the 'Chairman to the fact; and up to this moment that particular member has

not stated how he desires to record his vote. It is not enough that, because a member says, “ I vote against Mr i’yke,” his vote should be put down with the “ Noes." It was the duty of the Chairman to say to the honourable member for Hokitika, “ Do you record your vote with the ‘Ayes’ or with the ‘ Noes’ 1” but he did not do that. The honourable member for Hokitika did not know how 1 voted; he was asleep during the division; and 1 submit, Sir. subject to your judgment, that 1 had a perfect right to call upon the ActingChairman to do his duly. That was all J did. There was no disrespect intended to the Chair. You. Sir, have known me in various capacities. 1 have been a member of this House for nine sessions ; and 1 think you will acquit mo of ever having shown any disrespect to the Chair. I think you will agree that it is a hardship that, because a member demands that another member should be called upon to declare bow he votes, ho should be charged with disorderly conduct.

Mr Speaker.—l do not understand that the honourable member expresses any willingness to apologise for his

conduct . and it is for the House to say iu what manner he shall he dealt with. The honourable member will now withdraw. Mr Fyke.— I ill withdraw. 1 decline to plead guilty while I am innocent.

Mr iSheehan.—l have not spoken upon this matter yet; and, lirst of all, I must say that the Government, who have been putting on very high pres sure, are partly to blame for what has occurred We have now been sitting for nearly twenty-four hours. The Standing Order is that, when a division is being taken, members shall pass into the lobbies on each side of the House ; but in consequence of the long hours we have been sitting, the honourable, member for Hokitika, who was asleep in bis seat, did not pass into either lobby ; consequently he did not vote at all. He was roused by the honourable member for the Duustan, and, when called upon to say how he wished to record his vote, he said “ I vote against Air Fyke ” Now, Air Fyke is unknown to the Chairman of Committees ; no question concerning Air Fyke was before the House ; and therefore his vote, upon the statement, “I vote against Air Fyke,” should not have been taken. 1 have no feeling iu this matter at all. Air Kelly has been a member of this House since 1872. and 1 am bound to say that he is a painstaking, hardworking member; but 1 must also say that he has a very weak voice, and consequently could not tie heard by Air Fyke at the distance which was between them. Aly own opinion is that, if Air Kelly had not been in the chair, no disturbance whatever would have taken place. 1 have kept out of the House a good deal this session in order to avoid being tempted to speak; hut 1 object to see a member jumped upon ; and when he is being jumped upon, as the. honourable member for the ibmstan is being jumped upon now, the House ought to step in and Say, i- we will not allow this to be done ” Bat has anything very extraordinary occurred 1 This is not a patch upon what 1 have witnessed in this House on former occasions. 1 have heard the honourable member for Totata called " mean,” and I have seen a iVetuier ordered to withdraw from this House for having used otfen-

sive expressions ; but all these tilings have been quietly allowed to drop through.

Mr Hurst house.—The proceedings in Committee were certainly conducted in a somewhat extraordinary manner.

The honourable member for thcTliames (Sir G. Grey) had many times moved that progress be repotted ; but, as he had paired with another honourable member, be was compelled to leave the House every time a division came on. 1 hope the House will deal lenient! v with the honourable member for the Duustun, because, owing to the long hours we have been silting, he may have been acting under a feeling of irritability.

Mr Toie.—l quite agree with the honourable member for .Moteuka as to the leniency which ought to he dealt out to the honourable member for the Hunstan, who said in his statement to the House that he did not intend to offer any disrespect to the Chairniau of Committees. in that ease- he. ought to be treated leniently. He says, ‘‘ 1 cannot plead guilty while 1 am innocent. If I have been guilty of any disrespect to the Chairman f did not intend it and in that sense i think he has expressed his willingness to apologise for any misconduct. Under these circumstances I think this amendment would meet the necessities of the case : That the honourable member for the Dunstan having stated

that he intended no disrespect to the Acting-Chairman of Committees, this House does not consider it necessary to take any further action in this matter.

MrCisborne, —I second thatamendment, because 1 heard the honoiable member for the Uunstan expressly say, in the early part of his explanation, that he intended no disrespect to the Chairman.

Mr Wright.—l shall vote for the amendment. 1 think there are other parties to blame in this matter as well as the honorable member for the Dunstan. 1 think the honorable member for Hokitika (MrSeddon) is to biame for the reply which he gave when called upon to record his vote; ami, with all due deference, I think the Chairman was to blame for not call ing upon the honorable member for Hokitika to record His vote definitely one way or the other; and 1 also think the House is to blame, for there was so much noise and confusion at the time that it was scarcely possible for any member to bear exactly what was going on. Hesides, the possibility of his hearing the direction of the Chairman to sit down would depend very much upon Ins sense of hearing One man might hear very well, whilst another, whose sense of hearing was not so keen, might not. hear at all. I think we are to blame all round. MrSeddon.—Perhaps I might be allowed to offer some explanation as to the manner in which the disturbance arose. 1 u Committee of Supply the honorable member for the Thames (Sir C. Crey) moved many motions to report progress. During tint division on one of these motions I was adeep ; bur after the division I was awakened and asked on which side 1 desired to record mv vole. 1 said, “ I vote against Mr F’vke.” Hut the honorable member fovthe Dunstan objected to the vote being taken in that way. as he said the Chairman did not put the question in arc'udanee with the Standing (Irders. There was a great noise all round, and, as many members were calling out " Sit down ; sit down,” ii is possible that the honorable member for the Dunstan did not hear the Chairman's voice. litr Camion.—When the honorable member for the Dunstan called attention to the fact that the honorable member for Hokitika did not tote, the Chairman refused to take any notice of him, and put the next item ; and that is partly the cause of the disturbance. It was a scene that I do not care to witness again in this House ; and 1 say this, that if Mr Pvke is punished we are not men, because the whole thing was a mistake. There is no power on earth will compel me to vote for the resolution. M r Shephard.—Probably something like disorder broke out during the proceedings in Committee ; but, front what I saw of the conduct of the honorable member for the Dunstan, I am sure he did not wish to give offence to any one. Considering the. time we have spent over the matter, and the pain which 1 am sure the honorable member for the Dunstan must suffer front the public notice that will be given to what was proba bly tin unintentional error on his part, 1 would suggest that he should bn allowed to give the House an assurance that he did not intend to disobey the orders of the Chairman of Committees.

Sir G Grey.— I think an adjournment should take ]dace ; and I will give inv reasons for thinking so. I was quite worn out myself, ami I also felt annoyed at the rapidity with which the Chairman put the items, which were also read in so lowa voice

ths.'a 1 could not hear them. I have no even now, of what the iterans were, Other circumstances were tab: Tug place ; one memher ‘was' dis-ttn-Hbiug the House in a most improper manner; and in the end the Ho use was in such a state of confusiotm that 1 am sure no one could tell wlio ordered the honorable member for the Dunstan to sit down. As 1 came into the House about the time the disturbance took place, it appeared to xzme that the cries came from the Government side of the House, and in an excessively violent manner, which mix st have irritated any one, and I am satisfied that the whole effect upon tbet- mind of the honarable memher for their- Dunstan must have been to produce very great irritation indeed.

UDebute adjourned till half past sew eu o’clock p m. ZTMr Speaker.—l understand that it is the pleasure of the House that the hut torable memher for the Dunstan be no-w called in. The Serjeant at-Anns wiLI intimate to Hr Pyke that he is pex—mitted to return to his place. —Mr Dyke entered the chamber, . accotxatpaniitd by the Serjeallt-at-Arms, an; 1 took his seat.

dMr Speaker —Mr Fyke, t'ae IFnm d>-—dies to accord you another opportut iity of explaining the misbehaviour has been alleged against ydu dus-inga sitting of a Committee’ of thi_s House,

HMr Fyke. —Sir. the only further expk*_niuion I have to ofl'.-r is, that upon evt tv occasion \di-u I heard the (.'li airman lecpiest me to resume mv waat lat onee sat down. But there "l-rt a numlier of persons on mv left w 1 _io were shouting ••sit down; sit dr> wn. I turned to them and said, *' s will not sit down." The words w» re addrese-d to those members, and to • ~t, to the t’iiair; and by nothing wlaich I said or did had [ tiny itttetiti* >-n of showing disrespect cither to tit «—• t'lniir or to the Committee, In ri-t - erence to a remark which has been atCmibnted to tile S.-rje intuit Arms wlttrca he came to me in tin- gall tv. 1 tea go t itleman to exonerate him from the id:-sine ot having made use of such an ex ytiiession. Mr Speaker.—The House has now he =U'd the statement of expression of re egret that has fallen from the honorttl j-le member for the Ihmstan with regie nl to what took place during the hisst sitting of the House. If it is the wtadicf the House that the matter sli all proceed no further it will he mv <J i ity to intimate to Mr Fyke that oj~ninion of the House. Mr Fyke.—l wish to add that I ctweoedingly regret having been the ii* nocent cause of the disturbance.' Mt Hall.-—After the Statement n-tettde by the honorable member f..r tl if Duustan, 1 should be nonsuiting n r y own feelings—and, 1 believe, the tV—clings of this House—if I asked It—ave (o withdraw the lesolution, w hieli 1 felt it my duty to propose 1 heg therefore, to state that, if the ir-aover of the amendment, the honora.'sde member for F.den, will ask leave too withdraw it, I will ttsk leave to vw—i;hdraw my resolution, feeling that tiEie authority of the Chair has been v- indicated, and that the honorable rr member has shown that he meant no < t isrespect to the Chair or to the Cornrs~littee. Mr Tole. 1 ask leave to withdraw t ~nu' amendment Amendment and resolution withii rawu.