PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Dunstan Times, Issue 579, 23 May 1873, Page 2 (Supplement)

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Thursday, May J5, petitions. The following petitions were received: — From certain settlers at Macrae’s Flatj referring to the opening of blocks of land in their district.—(By Mr M'Kenzie.) From the Dunedin School Committee, referring to a certain reserve in Dunedin. —(By the Hon. Mr Reynolds.) volunteer land orders. The Superintendent, by message, submitted the names of volunteers who were entitled to a remission of purchase money of land, having served the allotted time. THE UNIVERSITIES. Mr Bathgate gave notice of the following : —l, “ That the intention of Parliament in passing the New Zealand University Act, 1870, to establish an efficient teaching institution, with a proper staff of competent professors, with which the University of Otago might be amalgamated, whereby the youth of the Colony might bo enabled to pursue their studies in the high er walks of literature, as well as qualify themselves for the learned professions, has been signally defeated by the Council of the socalled New Zealand University, which has limited its efforts to the affiliation of various existing local schools, without any guarantee that their standard is of that character which can ensure the advanced education required, and has expended the funds at its disposal, not in payment of professors’ salaries, but mainly in so-called scholarships, without a University for students to attend. (2.) That in the opinion of this Council, the proceedings of the Council of the so-called University of New Zealand are detrimental to the cause of education in the Colony, and have a tendency to lower the standard by elevating inferior schools to a rank they cannot maintain, and are besides a manifest evasion of the law. (3) That the University of New Zealand Act, 1870, should be repealed, and the funds hitherto disposed under it should, after satisfying all existing obligations be applied towards the erection and maintenance of a University at Auckland. (4) That, as the University of Otago now possesses a complete staff _of highly qualified professors, a most convenient building, erected at a cost of L 30,000, a good library, laboratory, and museum, and is attended by a yearly increasing number of students, this Council requests the assistance of the House of Representatives towards its obtaining a Royal charter, in order that its position may be thoroughly recognised, and its service in the elevation of the standard of education in the Colony rendered more effective.” i

WAIPAHI LAND SALE. Dr Menzies obtained tlie suspension of the Standing Orders to enable him to move; “That it is expedient to withhold from sale, for the present, the lands in the Waipahi and Glenkenich districts, now advertised or proposed to be sold ; and that the Government be requested to give effect to this resolution.” The block of land in question contained a_ large quantity of agricultural land tnau any similar block in the Province. The inhabitants, of the neighborhood were extremely desirous of ob taining a portion of this land brought under the operation of the deferred land system. It was now advertised for absolute sale ; and his simple object in moving the resolution was to postpone the sale for a. few weeks, in order to give the House and the new Government that might be formed, time to consider whether a portion of the laud should not be thrown open for sale under the deferred land system. The Provincial Secretary, in seconding the motion, referred to the letter signed “Allan Clyde” in that morning’s Daily Times, and, in explanation, said he had to give a public denial to the statements contained in that letter. The land in question was not on his run : he never applied for it; and hail nothing on earth to do with it. The owner of the run on which the land was situated applied that it should be put up for sale by auction ; there was a piece on the other side of the river on his (Mr Tolmie’s) run ; but if that piece were sold tomorrow, he would not take it, and had not the slightest intention of purchasing it. He thought it was unfair to the Government to press forward business when another Government was about to be formed; and, with a view of giving the member for the Taieri an opportunity of giving some expression on the latter subject, he moved the adjournment of the House till seven o’clock.

Mr Shepherd supported the motion, as an indication that the Council was now alive to the error of its ways, and averse to the sale of land large blocks. Mr Reid feared the Provincial Secretary was too sensitive, because anonymous writers chose to attack him. He would find when he occupied a public position long, that not only would anonymous writers attack him, but that editors of journals would dole out to their hungry admirers similar attacks, and would he ready to point out all the defects of his character, and many which he did not possess. He (Mr Reid) had more cause of complaint than the Provincial Secretary, because he was termed “clodocratic Mr Reid ”in the letter referred to. No harm could result from passing Dr. Menzies’a resolution; and he did not think that the proper time to say anything in regard to his own negotiations. Mr M'Glashan mentioned that, on the opening day of the session, he had called attention to the sale referred to, because he knew one of the principal bank managers, and one of the greatest land speculators in the Province, was anxious to buy the land; and he was determined to keep it out of his hands if possible. He mentioned the matter to the Government, and was informed that means had been taken whereby the land would not he sold below its value ; therefore fault could not be found with the Government. The motion was carried. ADJOURNMENT.

The Secretary for Goldfields moved the adjournment of the House till seven p.m. Mr Reid said he had that afternoon submitted to the Superintendent, in accordance with his request, the names of certain gentlemen to act as a Government; and his Honor had asked for a little time to consider the matter, and promised to send him an answer during the day. In the event of his not receiving a reply before the House met, he was to ask for an adjournment till seven p.m. ; and as he had not received a reply, he seconded the motion. The House adjourned accordingly. On the House re-assembling at seven o’clock, Mr Reid said that before proceeding with the business he had to ask the indulgence of the Council in order to make a statement. As ho had already intimated, he submitted to his Honor the Superintendent the names of the gentlemen whom he considered likely to meet with the confidence of the Council, and able to carry on the business of the country. Since the House rose at two o’clock, he had received a reply from his Honor. His Honor requested him (Mr Reid) to wait upon him, and the result of the interview was that his Honor intimated that he considered that the names of the gentlemen that had been submitted to him were not likely to be satisfactory to the Council. The Speaker : I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but a Message from his Honor the Superintendent Message No. 5 was then read as follows : “ Referring to his Message No. 3, in which the Superintendent, for the reasons therein stated, solicited the concurrence of the Provincial Council in an application to his Excellency the Governor for an immediate dissolution, and to which there has been no reply, the Superintendent again desires to reiterate this request, and to express a hope that in the public interest the Council may see its way to concur in the proposed application. The fact that the Provincial Council has now been in session ten days, at a cost of some LSOO to 1,600 (hear) —without any practical result —(cheers from the Government side of the House)—speaks for itself, and furnishes an additional reason for the adoption of the course now indicated. In the event of the proposed dissolution being granted by his Excellency, it is hoped that a new Superintendent and Provincial Council may be elected—say within two months from this date, till when there will be no difficulty in providing for the public service under authority of law. At the same time, in order to guard against any possible inconvenience, the Superintendent would venture to suggest the expediency of the Council agreeing to grant temporary supply, pending the assembling of the new Provincial Council. “ J, Macandrew, Superintendent,”

Mr Reid resumed; When interrupted, he was saying that his Honor expressed nis opinion that the names that had been submitted were, not likely to carry on the business of the country satisfactorily, and under the circumstances— Mr Shepherd : What names? Mr Reid : That the names of the gentlemen that I submitted to'his Honor were not likely to mfeot with the confidence of the Council, or carry on the business satisfactorily. He (Mi Reid) thereupon expressed to his Honor his own opinion that he (Mr Keid) had no other course but to leave the matter entirely in his Honor's hands. He had no further explanation to make. The task his Honor.had assigned to him had been fulfilled, and his Honor had rejected the names that he had tendered. Mr Shepherd would be glad if the hou. member for Taieri #ould give the House the names of the gentlemen whom he stated he had submitted as possessing the confidence of tire Council, because so far as he (Mr Shepherd) had learned, and judging by the names that were mentioned in the public press, he was quite sure they would never have the confidence of the country ; at all events not of the goldfields. Mr Reid had only to say that he was quite prepared to submit that question to the Council itself. —(Hear.) Mr M'Glashan asked for the names. It was, he thought, only due to the Council that they should be given. Probably', on their being read out, he and the member for Clyde might say they were proper parties ; but at present they were entirely in the dark; and for his own part he considered it was trifling with the affairs of the country. Mr Reid did not think that any good purpose could be served by disclosing the names. As for trifling with the affairs of the country, he entertained a different opinion from the member for North Harbor, and he could only say that there had been no trifling on his part. He had acted with a great deal of self-abne-gation in making the overtures he did. He had not spared himself time or trouble, and if blame was attachable for the action taken, it<did not i n any way rest with him. Leave was asked by Mr Barton, as he was about to proceed toWellington, tohave the Standing Orders suspended in order to enable him to move his resolution referring to Mr Piimsoll. This was met by an amendment by Sir F. D. Bell that the Standing Orders should be suspended to allow of his Honor’s heins' taken into consideration. A long discussion ensued as to the.necessity of the Standing Orders being suspended in the latter course; and ultimately on a division being demanded, a large number of the Opposition left the chamber, and the amendment being put, was carried on the voices.

Sir F. D. Bell asked whether the Government was prepared to go on with the business of the country, whether they were prepared to lead the House to a proper consideration of his Honor’s Messages, because uo_ private member would presume to take upon himself to lead the House in such a matter. It was necessary for the Government to do so.

Mr Barton thought the hon. member for Oteraraika had suggested a very grave difficulty, because if there was no Government, the Messages could never be disposed of. Sir F. D. Bell pressed for information as to whether or not there was a Government. If the Government simply held their scats till their successors were appointed, it was perfectly clear the House should adjourn. The Provincial Secretary replied that the Government only held their seats till their successors were appointed. He came down to the House expecting to find a new Government formed to replace his, consequently Message No. 5 was new to him : the other Message the House had heard before. The Government was not prepared with a reply to his Honor’s Message until they conferred with his Honor, and as they were simply holding their seats temporarily, they were not prepared to go on with any business; he therefore moved the adjournment till 2 p.m. next day, Mr Shepherd submitted that it was not treating his Honor with proper respect, in postponing the consideration of his Message. He did not object to the adjournment, but hoped to-morrow the Government would bo prepared to state exactly what course they would pursue, and not allow the time of the Council to be wasted, as it had been during the last fortnight. After some observations by Messrs CuTTEN and Bastings, Mr Thomson considered that the Messages being sent down without the advice of the Executive implied that his Honor intended they should be taken up by the Council and not by the present Executive. He was of opinion that the action of his Honor in so sending down Messages was unparliamentary.— (“ Oh, oh.”) Tho matter should be gone into at once.

Mr Barton was also of opinion that the Council should at once consider the Messages. There was no just reason why the House should adjourn, except to give hon. members who had not strength of character of their own to know what the public thought before they could come to a conclusion. The House had almost unanimously affirmed that it woidd not be led by the gentlemen now on the Government benches; and now to want to be led by them on this question was simply stultification. Another reason why the matter should not be postponed —and it was probable it might not be discussed —was that there ought to be an issue to go to the people with in the event of a dissolution. If he was to be dissolved, he wanted to know why? He wanted to know whether or not it was impossible to select from the Council a Government that would command a majority and be agreeable to the Superintendent; if that could be done, there was not the slightest necessity for a dissolution. He asked to be informed of the names of the proposed Government, in order that the House might judge from them whether thaf Government was likely to command the confidence of the Council, and so that he might know whether to oppose or support the Superintendent, in the event of an appeal to the country being made. The Hon. Mr Bathgate concurred with a good deal his colleague Mr Barton had said, but was of opinion that it would be unseemly, and show a want of respect, to at once take the Message into consideration. Ho referred to the Standing Orders, and contended that there should be some delay, which would allow of official intimation being received as to who the proposed Executive were. He had met the man in the street, who told him it was a rainbow Executive —it contained all the colors of the rainbow—Red, Green, and Brown; and his informant added that the Executive was as fleeting as the rainbow itself; therefore it was impossible it could stand. The man in the street also observed that those were colors that would not wash very well, and ho (Mr Bathgate) admitted they were of a fleeting kind, but remarked that there was Brown Stout in the Government, and that should carry it through. The man in the street was pretty correct. The member for the Taieri was to be Provincial Secretary, Treasuter, and Secretary for Lands ; the member for Tuapeka (Mr J. C. Browne) Secretary for Goldfields ; the member for Cavershara (Mr Stout) Provincial Solicitor ; these to be supplemented by Mr Lumsden’s name. Mr Bradshaw was offered a non-official post, and in his (Mr Bathgate’s) judgment properly declined it; while Mr Cutten took the reversion, and so became the other non-official member. He did not pretend to say whether his information was correct; but if it was, he had no doubt that if it ever reached the length of being submitted to the Council, it would be found to be as fleeting as the rainbow itself. Mr Cutten said that, so far as he was concerned, the hon. member’s statement was totally without foundation.

Mr Stout could understand the anxiety of the honorable member for North Harbor, who no doubt felt disappointed because his name was not read out by Mr Bathgate as one presented to his Honor by Mr Reid as a member of the proposed Executive. The Hon. Mr Bathgate appeared to be the only adviser his Honor had, or lie would not have been conversant with the names of the gentlemen proposed by Mr Keid.

Mr Reid thought the reply to his Honor’s Address should be carefully prepared by some gentlemen who should in a manner be responsible for the action they took. Eor bis part, he was not prepared to take the matter up then. Before they agreed to his Honor’s Message, they should know whyther or not it was possible to form a Government which would meet with the confidence of his Honor and the Council: at all events, every means should be exhausted before entering on the consideration

of the Message. The Superintendent bad been dragged too pinch into this question. His Honor was quite justified in rejecting the names submitted to him; hut in addition to that, he (Mr Reid) said that the Council had its position to uphold, which was to take immediate steps to ask that some other member of the Council should endeavor to form a Government which would secure the confidence of his Honor. He would not be doing his duty towards the Superintendent or towards the gentlemen whose names he had submitted to his Honor, were he to gratify the morbid and idle curiosity of the member for North Harbor.

Mr Shand was understood to say that his side of the House was determined to have out the gentlemen now on the Government benches, and would not be satisfied until they had them out. They had no right to be there. Mr M‘Lean agreed with very much that had fallen from the member for the Taieri, but there was one thing which he had not made quite clear. He presumed Mr Reid had performedhis task to the best of his ability, and that the list of names he submitted to his Honor was the best he could get. Did the hon. member recommend his Honor to send for some one who would be more likely than he to form a Government, or did he take up a position and say that he and those chosen by him must be accepted by his Honor? He wished to know, because he did not think the extreme step of a dissolution should be taken before every effort was made to secure an acceptable Government.

Mr Reid explained that when his Honor said he did not think the names _ submitted would be satisfactory to the Council, he (Mr Keid) said he considered he was relieved from the task he had undertaken. His Honor asked him if he wished to make any further attempt, but he respectfully declined. His Honor did not ask for advice, and he (Mr Reid) did not think it right, in his position, to tender any.— (Hear.)

Friday, May 16. PETITIONS. From George Bailey, that he was the purchaser of one acre of auriferous land at Swit; zers; that his title was properly registered - nevertheless, that the Waste Land Board sold the said acre of land to one W. M’Donald, wherefore the petitioner prayed that his case might be taken into favorable consideration. —■ From the residents of Roxburgh, stating that within a stated period of time there had been sales of L 75,000 worth of land in the district, and only LI,OOO expended on public works; wherefore they asked that a bridge should be constructed over the Molyneux at Roxburgh.— (By Mr Bradshaw.) From residents in the southern district of Southland, praying that the present bridge over the Makerewa might be continued until the new one was constructed, in order that traffic might not be interrupted.— (By Mr Basstian.) the crisis. On the Orders of the Day being called on, The Provincial Secretary said: —Since we met yesterday evening, negotiations were set on foot with a view to bring about a solution of the present awkward position of both sides of the House; and, Sir, in anticipation of a solution of that difficulty, measures were taken to bring it to a successful issue. Up to the present time these negotiations have not led to a final settlement of the difficulty, and I think that until this is done it would be very useless to go on with any further business. I think it is very probable that these negotiations will lead to a successful issue, and. if they do, it will be a great advantage gained, and a great deal of trouble saved. Mr Sumpter: What negotiations does the hon. member refer to ? The Provincial Secretary : The negotiations that were mooted. Mr Sumpter : Between whom ?

The Provincial Secretary: Between the hon. member for the Taieri and myself.— (Hear.)—lf, on tho other hand, these negotiations fail, which I trust they will not, in that case, the Government as now constituted, will bo prepared to advise his Honor the Superintendent as to what step should be taken in reference to this matter. I may say, that the Government as now constituted, are merely here until their successors arc appointed ; and that they have no desire whatever to sit on these benches, as I have before told the House. So far as I myself am concerned, I may be rather thin skinned, rather too sensitive, as I was told yesterday: but expressions were used last night by tho hon. member for the Taieri (Mr Shand) before a crowded House, which should not be passed over without some comment bein'* passed upon them. The hon. member could not wait for the ordinary course of events —to allow one set of men to occupy their benches, and another to leave them—but must drag the latter off the benches. I did not refer to these remarks last night, but I think it would have been well if he had been checked in using such remarks. I wish to be allowed to read to the House a letter which I have received from his Honor in reference to a portion of the business that transpired here yesterday. It runs thus: —

“Dunedin, 16th May, 1873. “My Dear Sir,—l observe that the grounds upon which I objected to the Executive proposed to me yesterday by Mr Reid are misrepresented by the Daily Time* this morning ; and although perhaps it is scarcely worth while taking any notice of this, yet it may be as well, if you have an opportunity of doing so, to state in the Provincial Council what was actually said by me to Mr Reid. The ipsimna verba were as nearly as possible that ‘ having carefully thought over the names submitted, I regretted to say that they were not altogether satisfactory to myself—that most certainly they would not be satisfactory to the country, and I doubted if they would bo satisfactory to the Provincial Council itself, although, as regards the latter, it might be said to be no business of mine.’ These were, I believe, the exact words used by me. “Yours faithfully, “J. Macandrew.” I have no further explanation to make. The gentlemen now occupying these benches are not going on with one iota of business : we are here simply till our successors are appointed, and will not submit to being made shuttlecocks of, as we have been during the last two days. I certainly shall not do so, and therefore move the adjournment of the House. Mr Fish thought the question whether or not Mr Reid had correctly represented what took place between the Superintendent and himself should be very distinctly understood, because the question raised an issue upon which the House would have to decide another question of considerable importance, Mr Reid : The hon. member had thought fit to express his conviction that everything he (Mr Reid) had said last night was wrong. Ho thought that it would have been much better if he had allowed him to rise in his place in the House, which he was about to do to make a statement to the Council. He had not thought it necessary to repeat all that had passed between himself and the Superintendent. He thought that by not repeating all that had transpired he was consulting the feelings of his Honor. Now, however, he felt that he was not only justified but actually called upon to do so. When he went to his Honor, he first requested him to take a seat.—(Laughter.) He proceeded to say—“Mr Reid, I do not know what to think of in regard to this matter. The whole thing appears to me to be very unsatisfactory. It appears to me that this thing will not do.”—(Laughter.) The Superintendent then went on to say that he did not consider that it would be altogether satisfactory to the Council. —(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He further expressed his opinson that a dissolution of the Council was rendered necessary. He felt convinced that the names of the gentlemen proposed did not possess the confidence of the country, and he felt sure that they would not be able to carry through the business of the Council. His (Mr Reid’s) reply was that he did not see that his Honor was in a position to express any opinion as to what the feeling of the Council would be. His Honor again reiterated his opinion that he was quite sure that they would not be able to carry through the business of the session : the impression left on my mind being that a crisis would probably arise and again delay the business of the Council. He (Mr Reid) concluded by saying that the statement he had made was substantially correct,

Mr Mbhvyn asked the Government if the Superintendent..had sent for any other gentlemen with the view of forming a Government. The Provincial _ Treasurer Jsaid that he had been in communication with the Superintendent to-day, and fresh negotiations were opened up, which he hoped would lead to a solution of the difficulty. For that reason he thought it most desirable that the adjournment should take place, to admit of the negotiations being matured.

Mr Reynolds did not intend to take any ! part in the discussion, having been only in the ' House a few days. The Superintendent, as the elected head of the Province, had as much to j say in this matter as any member of the C’oun . oil—(hear)—or indeed as the whole Council 1 put together. What was the fact ? The Council did not represent the Province. For example, for the City of Dunedin there were three members who voted one way and four the other. He could not understand that the citizens would return four lo vote one way and three the other. Under these circumstances, the question as to a dissolution submitted by his Honor ought to be fairly considered by the Council. It was not only the case with Dunedin. There were other districts, which he knew perfectly well from his own knowledge of things, the members for which, on going to the country on the question now at issue, would have no more chance of being returned than he (Mr Reynolds) had of flying to the moon.—(Cheers, in which the galleries joined, the demonstration being checked by the Speaker.) Mr Reid : What is the issue to go to the country upon ? Mr Reynolds : The question was, whether the Council should domineer over the elected head of the Province. - (Hear.) If he were the Superintendent he would not allow the Council so to domineer over him. He was responsible to the whole of the electors of the Province, and would be perfectly prepared to ascertain from them whether he was right or not in the course of action he had taken. The Superintendent made a very fair offer. He was ready to go before his constituents, and if members, with his Honor’s offer before them, refused to do so, there could be no doubt that the electors of the Province consider that tho e members were in this position ; they do not expect to beretumedagain.--(Oh.) Mr Duncan had not up to the present taken •ny great interest in the debate, but would refer to the remarks of his colledgue about going to the country, and asking it to decide upon a little difference between the Superintendent and a majority of the Council. He did not know of a single question, as between his Honor and the majority of the Council, that had not been before the House during the last three years. Two years ago, at the general election, it was a question of policy: one, in fact, of the settle ment of the country, and the returned for the purpose of deciding that question. The Council now stood in the same position as it did when it was elected; and it was a mere quibble to go to the country on a dispute between his Honor and the head of the late Executive—adisputethataroseoutside the Province. If members would look back a little, they would see that the dispute had more to do with the Assembly than with the interests of the Provine-’. He referred to the Superintendent’s refusal to convene the Council when requested so to do, not only by a majority of the House, but by members whose views were opposed to those of the majority ; and stated that, at the proper time, he would state his own views on the question of a dissolution. Speaking to the adjournment, he remarked that if he had gone into the real question, he would have found much stronger language than that in which the member for the Taieri referred to the member for the Peninsula. Even if he had the ability to carry on the Government, from his interest in the Province and his position with a Dunedin house, it was not for the good of the country that he should be at the head of the Government, or hold a seat on the Waste Land Board. That was one peason why a majority of the House had no faith in him. The Provincial Secretary : Will the hon.

member explain what authority he has for stating that I am not capable of either having a seat on the Waste Land or any other Board, or from holding a seat on this bench ? Mr Duncan : The hon. member represented a City house with which the majority of the runholders in the Province were connected. Whe-

ther it was so or not, there was a strong feeling on the part of members that he should not be on those benches. Discussing the merits of tho names that had been submitted to his Honor by Mr Reid, he remarked that Mr Green was a gentleman who had been a member of the Council for a considerable time: and the present Government thought so much of him that they submitted his name to the Superintendent for approval. He Whs not asked once, if he (Mr Duncan) was credibly informed; but the gentleman at the head of the Government went to the trouble of calling upon him at his residence in the country, with a view of inducing him to take office along with himself.

The Provincial Secretary : I was never at his residence; and his name was never submitted to his Honor the Superintendent. Mr Duncan then referred to Mr Brown. From what had been already stated in the House, they must believe that tho member fertile Goldfields (Mr Brown), after the Government had almost failed to find a member to take the position of Goldfields member in the Executive, induced the Government to throw Mr Shepherd overboard, and take the present Secretary for Goldfields into the Government. The Provincial Secretary : I rise to say that Mr Brown is no friend of mine : I repudiate the insinuation. I never had anything to say to Mr Brown in my life, except in another place, which itis unnecessary to name here. Mr Brown said, since his name hail been men tioned, ho wished to state that ho had never been in communication with his Honor in reference to the appointment of any member of the Executive. Mr Duncan was very glad to get the information ; but distinctly recollected the question being asked the Government by Mr Shepherd whether it was correct that Mr Brown had recommended, on the present Government being formed, the appointment of Mr Bastings in place of himself as Goldfields member ; but as it had been now answered, he was perfectly satisfied that Mr Shepherd was not correct. Then

there was Mr Stout. He hoped the Government would also he able to turn about and say that Mr Stout was not asked to join them. He was satisfied the hon. member for Caversham was asked in the usual way ; and that his name was submitted to the Superintendent, and approved by him. If the Government had asked Mr Stout to join them, without first submitting his name to his Honor, they had adopted a most unusual course. He was sure they would not thrust upon his Honor a person of whom he did not approve ; and seeing that he was asked to join, he concluded his name met with his Honor’s approval. It seemed then an extraordinary thing how three at least out of the five submitted to his Honor had been rejected. Then the member for Invercargill (Mr Lumsden) had not in any way made himself so obnoxious to the Government, or taken such a strong side as would lead his Honor or any portion of the Council to suppose that he would not make a good, useful working member.' Therefore, he failed to see, from any explanation the House had yet got from the Government, that the Council would bo in a bit better position on Monday than then. He was aware that negotiations were on foot; but he did not think they were likely to bring about an amicable agreement. So far as the dissolution went, it was a mere farce, a waste of time, in fact, and could do no good whatever. There was_ no question to go to the country upon. The idea of spending LI,OOO to ascertain from the people whether the Superintendent was right in dismissing Mr Herd or not was ridiculous. He confessed he would not be willing to be returned on such a question. The duty of the present Government was to recommend his Honor not to waste time, but to send forthwith for a gentleman from a majority of the Council, so that a Government midrt be selected. If the member was delaying doing so, in the hope that a member of the minority would be sent for, he (Mr Duncan) thought it would be weeks before a Government would be formed. He was sure any member from his (Mr Duncan’s) side would endeavor to form a Coalition Government, taking a fair share from both sides of the House. Tire member for the Taieri made overtures to two members now on the Government benches, but they distinctly refused until they met their own party, and the man in the street said one hon. member brought forward a resolution that no Government should be supported that bad

-Mr Reid in it."if such was the case, that hon. member should spare his advice until he gained more experience. I Dr Menzies deprecated unnecessary delay in the forming of a new Executive. His Honor might authorise any other member to undertake the duty of forming the Ministry, and it was not desirable to hurry him too much in this matter. They must remember that by doing so, much more time might be lost than would otherwise bo the case. Under the provisions of the last Appropriation Ordinance, authority was given to the Government to continue its expenditure at the same rate for a period of two months after the 31st March. These two months would expire at the end of this montli; and unless money was voted by the Council after that time, there would be no funds to enable the Executive to carry on with. He apprehended that, as that time drew near, a solution of the difficulty must be found somehow. It would be much better for the Council to consent to a reasonable adjournment at once, than to bo going on in that way, meeting day after day, and then adjourning to another day. Let them give more time by their adjournments, so that the Superintendent might be enabled to consider what other member of Council it would be advisable for him to send for. When they again met, this difficulty should not only be solved, but they should have a Government upon those benches, prepared to Lunch out into the work of the Session without further delay. Mr Gotten spoke in favor of the motion, in order that some one else might be sent for with that view. That, he contended, was the ordinary course pursued under such circumstances as the present. He could not help noting some remarks which had been made by the member for Dunedin (the Hon. Mr Reynolds). He (Mr Reynolds) had always fought against responsible Government. They had, however, resolved upon carrying on their proceedings in accordance with the principles of responsible Government, although the Superintendent had made the attempt to set up an opposite position. The Hon. Mr Reynolds, referring to the vote of want of confidence alluded to by the pre vious speaker, said that the Council dissolved, and thirteen members had been returned in favor of the position he had taken up, as against six members who were opposed to it. He then formed the first Government of that Council. In fact, he succeeded in maintaining his position notwithstanding the vote. Mr Thomson said that it appeared to him that the intention was unduly to exalt the office of Superintendent of this Province. There could be no doubt but that the position held by the Superintendent was an exalted one. They had been told that the powers he possessed were as much as the powers of the whole Council put together. Be that as it may, members of that House had some small powers conferred upon them ; they had still a few duties left for them to discharge. Hon. members had been stating at great length what the present issues should be. A great deal depended upon the knack by which these opinions were expressed. When a favor was wanted, a great deal depended upon the tact displayed in presenting the matter to the person from whom the favor was asked. Now, how had the issue that had been raised by this debate been put ? Compare the issue as put by Mr Reynolds with- that stated by the member for Port Chalmers. The position taken up by him (Mr Reynolds) was that the Council intended to domineer over the Superintendent, and on going to his constituency thequestion asput by him was— “Gentlemen, are you going to allow that ? Is the Provincial Council to be allowed to domineer over your Superintendent ?” On the other hand, the member for Port Chalmers raised another issue. He went back to his constituents, and asked if they were going to tolerate a Government that would prevent the prosecution of public works at Port Chalmers. Apart altogether from that view, he did not think that any question of policy had been raised for them to go to the country upon. Without entering into the merits of the question of a dissolution, he thought these circumstances were sufficient in themselves to defeat the claims put forward by the members for Dunedin and Port Chalmers for an appeal to the country. Mr Reynolds : You can address my constituents for me it you like. The Hon. Mr Bathgate said that ho took speech in hand on that occasion with very great reluctance. He did not intend to take any part in the debate. If he consulted his own feelings he would be inclined to sit still in his seat. His colleague, one of the members for Dunedin, had indulged in a very strong statement about him —(Mr Bathgate)—and it was necessary that he should say something in regard to it. The statement was that the whole time of the Council had been taken up by his hindering the progress of business.—(Hear, hear.) A more ungracious and incorrect statement had not been made since the Council commenced its sittings. The fact was that for several days he sat patiently in his seat, never opening his lips upon any question at issue. He did not intend to take any part in the debate, as he had the prospect of not being able to remain throughout the whole of the session. From the first moment that the Council commenced its sittings up to the time the Executive intimated its resignation, he never opened his mouth. He patiently submitted to a whole battery of personal abuseabuse commenced by the hon. member for Clutha, continued by the member for Taieri, and followed up by the member for Caversham. In short, the whole of the members of this mutual admiration society had pitched into him. Up to that time he had not said one single harsh word ; and if he consulted his own desires, he would get through life void of offence to all men. It was not, however, to be expected that he would continue to sit there and bo made the sport of their sneering speeches, without making some answer by- way of retort. It was not only in the Council that he had been abused by these gentlemen ; they had also abused him in public meetings. In particular, at the meeting held in the Taieri Plains he had been made the object of personal sneers. He now asked both sides of the House if it was in human nature to submit to such treatment, without making some sort of answer? Having hit hard, they must be prepared to take the consequence. He had only adopted their own style of debate, adopted the motto nemo me impnne laecssit. In proceeding, the speaker alluded to statements made at a previous sitting of the Council, when Mr Mekvyn rose to correct him. He (Mr Mervyn) remarked that the statement made by the hon. member on that occasion, was to the effect that hon. members had been charged with having been guilty of indecency. It was not, he said, a majority of members against whom tlie charge had been preferred, but against the whole House. Mr Bathgate continued to say that he withdrew the charge of indecency, as then made. He had no desire to cast reflections upon the House generally. He was desirous of living upon terms of good feeling with the whole House. All that he now aimed at was to clear himself from the aspersions cast upon him by his colleague for Dunedin. He was perfectly willing that the whole question at issue should be decided by members going to their constituencies. It was unfair to the constituency of Dunedin that four of its members should be found voting one way, and the remaining three another way. Such a state of matters was not only a great inconvenience, but it was a loss of power to a city like Dunedin; and he was perfectly willing to resign, and throw himself on the constituency. He trusted the House would see precisely what be meant. He did not think he had been fairly treated in having such piles of abuse poured upon him, both inside and outside the House, by the unforgiving member for the Taieri. No man respected his (Mr Reid’s) natural talents— Mr Reid rose to a point of order. He thought the personal allusions made to him were injudicious. The SpEAKEKreplied that throughout the whole of the debate greater latitude had been allowed than on ordinary occasions. Although be had permitted it, still be had to tell the House that it was unfair. Mr Bathgate, on resuming, referred to his previous connection with the member for the Taieri. He (Mr Bathgate) had agreed with him upon one great course of action connected with the repeal of the Hundreds Regulation Act. Now, however, he had found it necessary to take a different side from him : for tho sake of progress and advancement he found that course necessary. A kind of divorcement had taken place between them, partly from incompatibility of temper. He would bo no party to

forcing the member for the Taieri upon the Superintendent of the Province, and he nelieved that if that gentleman would exercise the virtue of self-abnegation, no difficulty would be experienced in forming a Government satisfactory alike to the Council and the country. He was prepared to discuss matters fairly, temperately, and on principle alone, and ho would ask that that style of personal abuse should be dropped. If not, he had-to inform hon. members that he had one or two red-hot shots left in the locker yet.—(Laughter.) Mr Stout said that if it was unconstitutional for a member of the Provincial Government to be a member of the Colonial Government, it was equally unconstitutional for a member of the Colonial Executive to act as Provincial Solicitor. The member for Dunedin had related to them the story of the calf and the two coJvb. He thought that story was very applicable to his own case. The first one to make personal allusions in a hitter speech was the member for Dunedin himself. Referring to the hon, member for the Taieri, he spoke of him as a person of intense vulgarity. Mr Bathgate : That is a misrepresentation of what I did say. Mr Stout continued to say that he was perfectly amused with one of the reasons put forward for a dissolution. The fact that four of the members for Dunedin voted one way, and three the other, was nothing new. In the General Assembly the hon. gentleman himself had never voted with his colleague, Mr Reynolds, until last session. . Minorities had to be represented, as well as majorities. It was impossible for them to get all the members of one mind. It that was urged as a valid reason for a dissolution being granted, then they never could have a session without a dissolution. What question had they to submit to the country ? They had no question of policy ; in fact, no constitutional question at all. The only question they could have, was whether the Superintendent’s choice of certain members to form his Government should be upheld or not ? That was no question to submit to the country. Mr Bathgate rose to a point of order. The question before the Council was one for an adjournment. The Speaker replied that the whole current of the debate had been out of order.

Mr Stout continued : When the question of the Hundreds Act was before the Council, the re-union with Southland, and various other matters requiring careful consideration, a dissolution was refused ; and why, he asked, should a dissolution now he granted? The whole difficulty arose from an incompatibility of temperament between the Superintendent and the members of that Council. From remarks made by the hon. member for Dunedin, he (Mr Stout) was inclined to think that he was his Honor’s sole adviser. He had afforded them information on points as to his Honor’s ideas on the subject of a dissolution, which the present Government appeared to know' nothing about. Mr Bathgate rose to a point of order. Mr Stout : We are told by the member for Dunedin that the Superintendent is willing to take any Executive, as long as the member for the Taieri is not in it. Mr Bathgate asked if Mr Stout was in order rvhen he made such statements as these ? Mr Stout : If the hon. member says that he does not know the Superintendent’s opinion on that point, then he has made statements that are utterly rvithout foundation. An act of that kind was unfair, both to the Superintendent and to the Council. He had one thing more to refer to on the question of a dissolution. The party in the Council anxious for it thought they had got hold of a good cry to go to the country with. They no doubt thought that by going to the country just now they would be able to secure their position for four years longer. A demand of this kind was continually got up by one side or another, whenever they thought they had a good question to put before the country. It was a reprehensible practice, and one which ho would discountenance. He would support the motion for an adjournment; and in doing so expressed his opinion that some person should be empowered to form a new' Executive. The motion was put and carried. The Council then adjourned till Monday, at wop.m.

M.onday, May 19. private petitions. Mr G. E. C. Browne presented interim report No. 5 of the Private Petitions Committee, on the petition of George Bailey, Avho prayed for the favorable consideration of the House for loss alleged to haA'e been sustained by him as the holder of a mortgage over a Government mining claim on Acton’s flat, in consequence of the sale of fifty acres to one Allan MTJonald, the said claim being included in that area. The Committee reported that after investigation of the matters appertaining to the claim of the petitioner, they deemed it advisable that the report of the Commission appointed by the Superintendent, in consequence of a recommendation by the Goldfields Committee of the House of Representatives, to inquire into the sale of the said fifty acres, be printed.

PETITION'S. From land owners .and residents in the Kakanui district, requesting the employment of a police constable.—(By Dr Menzies.) From the inhabitants of Hyde, requesting that 5,000 acres might be thrown open on run 205 for the purposes of settlement.—(By Mr Mervyn.) From residents in the Lakes disti ict, praying that the construction of the bridge over Franklin Falls be stopped ; and plans called tor the construction of a bridge over the Morven Ferry.—(By Mr limes.) _ NOTICES. Among the notices given were the follow, ing : (1.) That in regard to his Honor’s Messages, Nos. 3 and 5, the Council is of opinion that if his Honor would consent to carry nut constitutional precedent in accepting an Executive from the majority of this Council, there need be no interruption to public business. (2.) That the Council will be prepared, as soon ns the business absolutely necessary for the welfare and progress of the Province is disposed of — especially in the matter of initiating the system of selling lands on deferred payments—too long delayed—and providing for tlie better encouragement of settlement; and also determining the best steps to bo taken for the immediate construction of the Clutha and Mataura, and Dunedin and Moeraki railways, and for deepening the harbor, so that vessels of the largest tonnage visiting our port may como up to Dunedin—to take into consideration the question of dissolution of the Council. (3.) That if his Honor will join issue with the Council in asking that an alteration of the Constitution Act should be effected, determining whether his position is to be that of a Dictator or simply that of an Executive officer, this Council will agree to recommend a dissolution immediately after the rising of the Assembly. (4.) That Mr Speaker be requested to forward a copy of these resolutions to his Honor, and also telegraph the same to his Excellency the Governor.—(Mr Clark for Thursday.)

government explanation. The Provincial Secretary said that, before proceeding to other business, he wished to reply to the question pint by the bon. member for the Mataura. Arrangements bail been made for making the track from the Hnlyford river to Martin’s Bay, sanctioned by the last session of Council The track was being formed by Air Clark, and at the present time it had been formed some twelve miles into the bush. With regard to the position now arrived at, they were aware that on Friday last he had moved for an adjournment of the House. That motion had led to a lengthened discussion, the motion for adjournment being eventually given effect to. What Ire was now about to do was to state to the House the position in ■which matters now stood. AVhen he last addressed the House he stated to the Council that negotiations had been entered upon which, he hoped, would bring about a union of the discordant elements, and solve the difficulty, lie was very sorry to say that those negotiations had failed. After due deliberation, the Government recommended to the Superintendent that the member for Oamam Country (Dr Webster) should be sent for. He (Ur Webster) bad taken no very prominent part in the late proceedings. Tire part he bad pursued was that of a middle course ; and as it was upon his resolution that the Government had gone out, they thought he was the most likely person to bring the conflicting elements together, and form a coalition Government. Unfortunately these negotiations had (ailed,

for reasons which it was unnecessary to plain. 1 That morning Dr Webster had repot the complete failure of his mission. The qt tion at issue was difficult to make out. H (Mr Tolmie) made it this: certain powers] been conferred by constitutional authority ir his Honor.

Mr Reid rose to a point of order. The hj«, member was not justified in entering debatable matter, unless he was prepare/ bring forward a motion ; and he (Mr h e ; judged, by what had been said about adjoin ments, that such was not his intention. 1

Mr Tolmie, in continuation, said tly although not prepared to make a moth he had other ideas to bring forward besid those of an adjournment. After f, ther interruption, he added that he wm simply refer to the circumstances led the Government to give his Honor \\ advice that they had given to him. Cot queut upon the negotiations that had tali place, the Government found that the confer ing elements of the House rvero of such a ns/ that it would he quite impossible to unite. 1 position of parties was this. Government! a compact body of seventeen supporters. Aho twelve members were staunch supporters of | hon. member for the Taieri. (LaughteAbout fifteen members in the House recognk no political head at alb—(Continued laughter The Speaker ; The hon. member is certnj as well aware a# I am that the rule of debate that no explanation shall be made either b t member of the Government or by a member the House in which debateable matter shall] introduced: it must be a simple statement explanation. Hon. members will at once, the justice and force of such a rule, when/ consider that the object of the debate and | onject of the Speaker in conducting the debai should be that both sides of the House ifc, have a fair hearing ; and that no one side oft House should be given an advantage over j other. That is the general principle laid doi for the conduct of debate; and it would] manifestly unfair that one side should have opportunity given it, which is not accords! the other, to use one-sided arguments. The Hon. Mr Reynolds quite agreed r the remarks of the Speaker; but said iti usual to allow a great amount of latitude fc member of the Government in making an ( plsnation, which given, any hon. member cu move that the House do now adjourn, n't would allow any member to reply to the 1 member at the head of the Government,

The Speaker : I quite agree that consife able latitude is allowed to members of the (; vernment: I did not interfere until my atft tion was called to it. Mr Keid : Will the hon. member for Dint; (Mr Reynolds) say Avhethor, in the event oi t making such a motion, I will be allowed tinconclude my remarks? y The Hon. Mr Reynolds : I presume theht member will have time enough to make remarks. I know nothing to the coat® (Oh, oh.)

The Provincial Secretary said after t course laid down by the Speaker, he must ea fine himself entirely to the question at up. and in reference to that question, he conriife. that, in consequence of the conflicting intern in the House, it W'as impossible that a stre Administration could be formed. In cob quence, although it was done reluctantly, t : at the same time, he thought the country woj benefit by it, the Government had recce mended his Honor to prorogue the Corn# with a view to an application being made tot General Government to grant a dissolution. (Cheers.) He did not think that he had beyond the bounds of propriety in making ft explanation. He had no motion to make, u would simply resume his seat. The Speaker then announced a Message in his Honor the Superintendent, which was rr as folloAvs:—

“ It is with the utmost reluctance that ft Superintendent is compelled to convey to ft Provincial Council his regret that the Com' has not seen fit to reply to his former messaj —an act of courtesy which he had hoped woul have been deemed due to the office which 1 holds, ap u t altogether from personal consider! tions. Tire Provincial Council will have be in session a fortnight to-morrow, w. tliout in,lift theslightest progress in tire practio d businessi which it rvas coiiA'cned —and, for ought that li Superintendent can see to tire ci ntr try, this ski of tilings is as likely as not to continue for ana definite period. There appeals, therefore,! be no alternative but to prorogue the Counci (hear, hear)—and appeal to the people, a com Avhicb, after his ineffectual attempts to fomi Executive, the Superintendent, Avith the add and consent of the Executive Council, has s solved to adopt. It is hoped that under ft circumstances his Excellency the Actig GoA-ernor will not refuse his assent to s d solution, seeing that othenvise the affr of the Province Avill speedily arrive at deadlock.—(Opposition cries of “Oh! oh! The Superintendent need scarcely say that £ step which he has now adopted is a painful i —(hear) —to himself, and has been taken un! a very grave sense of responsibility.—(Her, Elected by and responsible to the whole W of the people, he should he betraying the trei reposed in him were he quietly to submit to ft office being trampled upon, and to ft business of the Province being brough to a standstill The Superintendent wot] respectfully point out to the majority i the Provincial Council that if the someth anomalous political machinery in the shaper responsible Government, Avith an clectiA’c hoi Avhich the Province bat seen fit to tack out the Constitution, is to Avork at all beneficial!; there must needs be in the choosing an Exm tive mutual concessions, and that the fcelk and vieAA's of the Superintendent have i least as much right to be consulted as bn those of the Provincial Council. B Superintendent hat been chosen by It majority of the people to administer the ate of the Province, and has been pledged to a polk of progress.—(Cheers from the Govcnuno side). It is manifest, therefore, that ft majority of the Council, by seeking to frn upon his acceptance advisers AA'ho, it may k entertain opposite vieAVs from the Superintei dent, arc seeking to place him in a false positia —a position which he refuses to accept. Ik Superintendent came down to the Council i! its opening Avith very important proposii bearing upon the advancement of the Previa —proposals Avhich it Avas intended to have Id loAvedup by others equally important. Instead entertaining any of these, however, the tin has been occupied in discussing matters wW have little or no practical bearing upon Ik public interests : circumstances Avhich tk Superintendent trusts will amply justify inti eyes of the people the action Avhich, in the inter est of the country, he lias been compelled ft take.—(Loud cheers.)

“James Macindbew.” Mr. Reid : I was about to move the adjoin ment of the House. I think, Sir,— The Speaker : Another Message from li Honor the Superintemlant. (Laughter.) (Alta a pause)—lt is not a message :it is simply; letter. The hon. member for the Taicri m 3 please proceed. Mr Reid, when interrupted, was about I’ move the adjournment. He was not an* whether hon. members on the benches were pn pared to proceed with the business : if not. t would move the adjournment, and in ordertb he might place clearly before the House and tb electors of the Province the position in whirl matters stood at the present time, he fc» justified, and even' called upon to take tli opportunity of that motion to state what tan- 1 pired since the time the motion was carried® which the Government thought fit to resign They had been told on many occasions—in fart, they were reminded in the Message that tf just been read—that a great deal of the time «l the House and of the country had been wasted. Let them see with whom lay the fault tW this had occurred ? On the very first oppor trinity which The Secretary for the Goldfields: Iris* to a point of order. I maintain that no lionmember is in order. There is no Council at tb present time. A communication from H* Honor the Superintendent ■ The Speaker: The hon. member is out of order—(Hear) —and will please resume his seat The Secretary for the Goldfklds: I)* - sist upon his Honor’s communication hem! read Mr Mehvvn ; Sir, I beg to call your attention to the fact of strangers being in tire House. The Speaker: I cannot possibly rccognis# any document Air Mervyn : Air Speaker, I again call yo® attention to the fact of strangers being in tht House,