HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Daily Telegraph (Napier), Issue 3140, 21 July 1881, Page 3

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Wednesday. The House met at 2.30 p.m. STEAM COMMUNICATION WITH ENGLAND. Mr Maeandrew gave notice that he would move for the appointment of a committee to consider the best way to establish direct steam communication with England. QUESTIONS. Replying to questions, it was stated that the power of inflicting a penalty equal to 100 per cent, on the rent due, in the event of a tenant of Crown lands in the Nelson district not paying his rent, was conferred upon the Government by law, but Ministers would look into the matter with tho view of providing some relief in tho circumstances ; the law as it stood was sufficient to prevent public health being endangered by impure milk supplied to customors, the Boards of Health having power to inspect and ! cleanse dairies and take what action might otherwise seem necessary to protect the public ; the Government had undertaken to subscribe £200 towards the erection of a flour mill for the Ngatipukeko tribe at Whakat .ne, and the money would be paid upon the work going on ; it was not proposed to bring in a bill this session to legalise marriage with a deceased husband's brother ; it would depend on circumstances when the despatch from the Governor on native affairs could be safely made public. THE NO-CONFIDENCE MOTION. The debate on the no-confidence motion was resumed by Mr Levestam, who spoke against the Government proposals, saying they were of a nature which could not possibly recommend them to the country. To his mind they suggested the worst form of legislation that could possibly bo conceived. They appeared to have been forced on Ministers in pretty much the same way as

retrenchment had been forced on them last session, arid, like retrenchment, local government appeared to hate be'en most clumsily devised. The secret of good local government was to set aside a fund for the use of the localities, the same to be distributed in accordance 'with some welldigested schenifi, leaving those bodies to expend the money to the best advantage, He objected to the constitution of the proposed Board, and he concurred to a great extent in the scheme sketched by Mr Saunders, believing that provincialism ought to be so modified as to suit all the requirements of the colony. He also objected to the proposed reduction of the property-tax. For these and other reasons he announced his intention of voting against the bill. Mr Collins spoke in favor of Ministers, urging that the colony had, under their administration, Regained its social and political strength, and if the no-confidence vote were successful it would mean a return to many of the cries from which they had just escaped. It would be inadvisable to disturb the present position of affairs. He was free, so far as his constituency was c6ncernedj to act as lie pleased, not having been pledged in any way, and when he announced that he was going to vote for the Ministry he did so in the exercise of his own judgment on the point. Their proposals were not revolutionary—they were simply an endeavor to make the institutions they had more efficient. To ask them to return to provincialism was simply to ask them to disinter a fossilised animal and feast on its carcass. After reviewing Mr Saunders' proposals, he said the Roads Construction Bill would prove a great boon, inasmuch as it woiild enable out-lying districts to secure a fair and equitable share of tho expenditure. Mr Murray spoke in favor of the Ministry, stating that any objections -which might exist against the bill were of a nature which could easily be remedied in committee. Mr Turnbull spoke in opposition, contending that the improved state of the colony was not due to Ministers, but to its elastic resources. The debate Was interrupted by the 5.30 adjournment. The House resumed at 7.30. Mr Turnbull continued the debate. He expressed the opinion that Mr Saunders' scheme was one excellently adapted to meet the requirements of the colony. Mr Te Wlieoro strongly condemned the proposed rating of native lands. The bill, he said, was a monster which woidd swallow up the lands of the natives. The bill should bo called "The Mortgaging and Confiscating of Native Lands Bill." What the natives wanted was the power to manage their own affairs. Mr Tawhai objected strongly to native lands being taxed. The conduct of Major Atkinson reminded him of that of Ahab in coveting Naboth's vineyard. The bill should have a millstone tied to it and be thrown into the sea 1000 miles from New Zealand, so as to be no more heard of. He would vote for Mr Ormond's amendment. Mr Wakefield thought it to he regretted that the native members had been so misled as to the nature of the bill when there were so many members able to have given them correct information. He and others on that side of the House who had endeavored to raise the question of local government during the early part of the session entirely repudiated the action now taken by Mr Ormond, who had associated himself with members who cared nothing for local government, but simply wished to oust or damage the Government, and who advocated the restoration of provincialism. The proposals of the Government were the most reasonable and statesmanlike in the direction of local government yet made, and therefore he supported them and opposed the proposals of Sir George Grey and Mr Ormond's amendment. Mr Ormond's chief objection to the Government proposals was that they would stereotype the county system he had himsel established in 1876. Mr Ormond's admission that he then made a mistake was creditable to hi 3 candour, but not likely to inspire confidence in his statesmanship, or to make people regard him as a safe guide in politics. Next year Mr Ormond might find his present action a mistake. Mr Wakefield then accused Mr Ormond of acting unfairly in bringing the amendment forward without informing Ministers, although he had informed the Opposition, and entered into an intrigue to defeat the Government. Mr Ormond positively denied the statement. He had not informed any member of tho Opposition of his intention. Mr Wakefield said he received tbe assurance with pleasure, but appearances had led to the contrary conclusion. Mr Ormond's object seemed to have been to bully the Government into doing what he wanted under penalty of being turned out. For himself (Mr Wakefield) he would have preferred to see the Government propose a bolder scheme ; to establish local bodies on a permanent basis, with greatly enlarged powers, but the proposals made tended in that direction, and therefore he accepted them. He had not originally liked the county system, but he admitted it had in many respects worked excellently. Had the Government proposals been allowed to proceed without being intercepted by Mr Ormond's amendment they might have been moulded into excellent form, or else withdrawn after full discussion, which would have afforded material for preparing a better scheme during the recess. If the amendment was carried a dissolution would take place without even a redistribution of seats, Mr Ormond must have well-known that that would be the effect. He ridiculed the idea of Mr Ormond being able to form a Ministry out of the Opposition under present circumstances. After tracing the successful administration of the present Ministry, especially in native affairs, Mr Wakefield declared his belief that it would be a great disaster to the country if they were turned out on such an issue as the present one, which they would be justified in placing before the county as an issue between restoring provincialism and placing the tho local bodies on a better footing, with large and well-defined powers. On that issue, and with their successful administration to refer to, the Ministry could go safely with all confidence to tha country. He would, however, advise them not to go to the country, but to resign and throw on Mr Ormond the responsibity of trying to govern the country better than they had done. Mr Ormond said that Mr Wakefield and Mr M'Lean had accused him of having been in confidential relations with the Government this session. He absolutely denied it. Before the session, when addressing his constituents, he had clearly defined his position towards the Ministry. He had never given them any reason to believe that he was a ' supporter. Major Atkinson said he entirely disagreed with that statement. | Mr Wakefield said he had made the assertion on what he bclived was entirely reliable information. Mr M'Lean said he had understood Mr Ormond to be a Government supporter. Mr Rolleston said he had been on intimate terms with Mr Ormond, and certainly the nature of those communications caused him much surprise when ho found Mr Ormond in the position ho had now taken up. Mr Reader Wood replied to Mr Wakefield. He declined to consider, argue, or vote on any question but tho one really before the House, which was whether the Government proposals were or were not satisfactory. As to members going to Ministers to try to influence them privately, that was nothing else but government by caucus, and he entirely demurred to it. It had been his own intention to move an amendment on tho Government proposals, but on mentioning it to Mr Ormond, and finding he entertained a similar intention, ho had gladly given way to the member for Olive. As to the talk about Ministers resigning, he was not frightened, for ho did not believe it; but in any case, sufficient for the day was the evil thereof. In any event great good

had been achieved, for now it was im- ! possible that the bill before the House could pass. He opposed the financial proposals of the Government because they Would necessitate further taxation and further borrowing. Tho latter he would oppose to the very utmost. As to the socalled prosperity of the colony, he denied that a plethora of money was any sign of it. Ifc only showed the lack of a field for profitable investment. He objected to rating Crown lands because they were producing nothing. They belonged to the public, and the public were to be called on to pay rates to the public. Both waste lands and native lands would soon eat their heads off in the payment of rates. On no principle of justice could rates be imposed on lands held by native title. It was a policy of confiscation. The natives did not want the mads made, much less to pay rates for making them. He strongly condemned the Government proposals with regard to main roads. Where was the £3 for £1 to come from for the local bodies ? It was as marvellous as giving new lamps for old ones. The proposal was purely delusive, as was also that of the large fund to make advances from. They were dealing with purely imaginary money. The whole scheme was simply one of disguised taxation. So far as tho North Island was concerned, he thought a simple scheme for constructing roads and bridges might be devised, if they would divest themselves of party feeling and treat the matter as men of business, as trustees for a neglected, but valuable estate. Out of the balance of the public works fund £200,000 should be devoted to opening up, with roads and other means of access, the native lands they had acquired at a cost of upwards of a million. These lands were now unsaleable and unprofitable, but if opened up in a comprehensive system they would, he believed, speedily recoup their cost, and provide a continuous land fund. He would take an early opportunity of bringing down a series of simple resolutions to give effect to this proposal. Mr Oliver expressed astonishment at Mr Ormond's notion. He had never before known the case of a Ministry attacked on such paltry and frivolous grounds. He thought the general proposals of the Government satisfactory, and any error in details could be corrected in committee. He quite approved of rating native lands and Crown lands. The latter was the measure of tho contribution the colony should give to the local bodies. He regarded Mr Ormond's action in the matter as likely to produce disastrous results, as ifc would prevent a redistribution af representation taking place prior to the next election. If there was a dissolution now they would have to face it, and then again six months afterwards. Mr Ormond would be responsible for this, and neither the House nor the country would thank him for it. Mr Beetham moved tho adjournment of the debate, which was agreed to, and tho House rose at 12.15.