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ADDRESS-IN-REPLY

NO-CONFIDENCE MOTION HEAVILY DEFEATED

FURTHER AMENDMENT MOVED The division on the want-of-confiderice amendment moved by the leader of the Opposition (the Hon. W. D. S. MacDonald) was reached yesterday afternoon. The debate had been adjourned on the motion of the Hon. C. J. Parr, who was' called upon by the Speaker when the debate was resumed. Mr. PARR said he gathered that members -wished to procecd to tlio division. He would have other opportunities of placing his own views before members. He would withhold his remarks in order i that the want-of-confidence issue might bo decided without further delay. Mr. J. CRAIGIE (Tirnaru) said ho wished merely to state his own attitude towards the amendment. He had been returned to the House as an Independent, with a perfectly free hand on party questions. He did not like the party system, and he regarded tho amendment as merely a continuation .of party wrangiling. The country had _ never been in greater need of unity than it was at the present time. It was facing momentous problems, and it required a common effort and an increased spyit of brotherhood. He did not eco that any good was to be effected by the amendment. Later he might find it his duty to vote against the on a matter of principle. He, would vote against the amendment that day. The division was taken at 4.33 p.m. Pour of the Independents, Messrs. Statham . (Dunedin Central). Kellelt i (Dunedin .North). .(Wanganui), and Mitchell (Wellington South), left the chamber before the doors were closed. Some daughter was caused by a mistake on the part of the Minister of Education .(>tr... Parr), who went into the wrong lobby. The Minister was able to put this right in time. The amendment was defeated by 45 Votes to 23.

The Division List. .'The division list is as follows:— •' " For. ' ■. Atmore Mac Donald . Baitram Masters , Udie Ngata . Forbes Parry. . ■ Haiian Poland ■ Holland Savaga Horn. Seddon Howard Sidey " laitt • Sullivan Jennings,. Thacker M'Callum .... .Witty M'Combs • Against. Anderson- Luko Bitchener Lysnar Bollard - ■ M'Leod •-Burnett M'Nicol Campbell Malcolm ' .( Coatcs Slander Craigie Massey //.'Dickson, J, M, Nash .Dipkson, J, S. .:. Newman, A. E,- ' .j-Eield .. Nosworthy ! jijGfJfioa ' Parr c/lOntluie Pomaro fiiHainilton, A. Potter Hamilton, J. R, Powdrcll /Harris Reed YpHawken : . . .. Rhodes, R. H. . .])fieaaro . Rhodes, T. W, vvifleirias Stewart .ipHopkley Sykes Hudson Uru •jiiHontw" \V right Jonea Young • rLee ■ fibr' Pairs. o/fPori B. W. Smith. Against: E. New>nsn,' ANOTHER AMENDMENT. PROGRESSIVE PARTY: MR. STA- ' THAM RELATES HISTORY. Mr. C. E. STATHAM (Dtinedin Central) ' then mved the amendment 'of which • he had given notice earlier in the de- . bate, that the following words should ba added to tho Address-in-Reply: We feel it, however, our duty to : submit to Your Exoelleney that in the opinion of this House Your Excellency's Government should, if not elected by this House, at least be elected by the members of the dominant party in the House.

Mr. Statham said he had been returned at the last election as an Independent He consequently had crossed \ths House, and taken his seat on the Lib;er.il benches, though he was not ono of 'the Liberals. The step had not been an ,easy one, but ho had felt it his duty to do what ho had done. He wished to ;'thank the members of the lieform Party ■■ for their continued friendship, and to say that.ho had lost Bono of his personal regard—he might say of his affection— for his old leader, the Primo Minister. Mr. Statham proceeded to say that tho Government ought to have commandeered all tho products of- the Dominion at the outbreak of the war. By this means it would have prevented the inflation of the price of land, and tho increase of tho . cost • of foodstuffs, without inflicting any hardship on anybody. Tho GovernorGeneral's Speech was a confession of the Government's inability to do things that ; the country required to have done. It ' contained a statement that tho Govcrn- • ment must borrow to meet current expenditure. Mr. Massoy: No. Only to pay for public works. Mr. Statham complained that the Government wna not giving tho Dominion a lead. The Speech had been barren of actual proposals, and only one Minister had spoken in tho debate. Speaking mors particularly of his amendment, ho said that his proposal was a departure from House of Commons precedent. But appointments had been . made in the past, not necessarily bv this Government alone, of which thej House could not approve. Mr. Massey: I wish you would tell mo which they are. Mr. Statham said he did not propose to mention names just yet. But new times 'demanded other methods. Tho Gov-ernor-General's Speech had contained no Teal hints of the intentions of the Government'. Mr. Massey: Can you show mean instance of the Government putting its polioy into the Governor's Speech in this or any other country? "Mr. 'Statham: -I-can- roncmber tho ■Prime"Minister in 1912 denouncing tho Governor's Speech for this very TCason.' - Mr. Mnssoy: You arc quite wrong. _ I denounced it because on that occasion polioy had been put into the Speech, and I said it had been put there for a wrong purpose. An'hon. member: That's another matter. . Mr, Statham procegded .with a wide

criticism of the Government, referring- to such matters ag the fostering of industry, modification of the tariff, the amendment of tho standing orders of the Houso and other matter.. , Words With Ministers. Mr. Statham made very particular references to member? of the Reform Party who had been active in the -formation and organisation of the so-called Progressive Party. He said that although he might have to name certain members, he hoped'that it would be .understood that he was not doing this with ill-feeling. "In 1918," he said, "there was a certain amount of dissatisfaction in the Reform Party, and the member for Oamaru, as he then was, came to me with another gentleman to. ask me to assist them in drawing up a platform which would embody the views of the more progressive members of the Reform Party. I agreed with them, nnd I gave my own opinion of tho Reform Ministiy at that lime, saving that I would turn them out of office lock, stock and barrel." ■ Mr. Lee: It was the National Government then. Mr. Statham: "He was speaking of the Reform members of the Government, as the honourable member knows quite well, beeauso the honourable member was a member 'of tho Progressive Party." Mr. Statham went on to say that the first plank in the platform of the Progressive Party,wa,s to be that the party itself should ol6cfc the members of the Ministry. He had had no hand in gathering members for the party. As to who'did this he liad no knowledge; perhaps tho member for Oamaru mi?ht be able to enlighten the-House. The member for Mataura was elected chairman of the party. The same honourable gentleman might write a book about himself, as.having been once a,lCnight of Labour, and having in the end accepted a scat in tho Mfssey Ministry! Mr. Massey: Tliero is nothing wrong about that. Mr. Anderson: I never was a Knight of Labour, anyway. Mr. Statham: Well, something of the kind Then I oome to the Minister of Education. He was, the most enthusias-. tic member of the party, and at length his zeal overran his discretion. Ho was the member who with another member of tho party went to Napier to ask General Russell to lead tho party. Mr. Pan-: I contradict that flatly. Mr. Statham said that Mr. Parr had been one of the most energetic members of the party. Mr. Parr: Quite right, that is why 1 am here. Mr. Statham said that Mr Leo had been more cautious, especially in the later stages of the business, when ho had kept a foot in cither camp. . Mr. Lee: Give the facts. Do not -make general statements. 1 Mr, Statham said' that Mr. Leo trnd certainly been at tfcie time of which ho was speakibg a member of the Progre*sive Party, but latterly he had not attended* any meetings. •Mr. Lee 1 : I did nothing of the kind. Mr. Statham said that the honourable member had some of the charactorwt.ics of tho Vicur of Bray Mr. Massey: What about yourselff Mr. Statham: I will como to myself later. . An Elective Ministry, He went on to eay that tlio first plank in the platform of the party wiu> that their Ministry, should they ever be in power, was to bo elected by tim members of the party. Mr. Lee: 1 never supported It. Mr. Statham: Then the honournom gentleman was there 'under false pretences, because that was the iirst plank of our programme.Mr. Harris: Hear, teaMr. Statham: "The honourable member for Waitemata says 'Hear, hear.' He knows it quite well, because he was a member of he Progressive Party." He explained that it had been agreed among them that no member of the party shonM take office in ■ the Ministry, unless with the consent of th(f party. Mr. Parr: That is not no. Mr. Statham: 1 am astonished to liear the Minister of Education say that. Mr. Lee: Do you say that I agreed to that? Mr Statham: The honourable gentleman knows that it was the first plank of the Progressive Party. Mr. Parr: As a matter of fact It win not a party;'it was tho progressive win# of the Reform Party Mr. Statham said, that this had tioi been at all the position, and said that the Progrcssivo aimed at separation from the Reform Party. Mr. Parr: Do you suggest that ttio Prime Minister did not know what w» were doing? Mr. S. (5. Smith:' Of course he knew, Mr. Hanan: They wero putting a pistol to his head. Mr. Statham said that his own attitude had been that they should declnre themselves a separate party. He wished to say to the Prime Minister and members of the Reform Party that any criticism he had had to make of tho party he'had mado to their faces, and not behind their backs

Mr. Parr: That again is incorrect. Tho honourable member bas never breathed a word cf this to mo directly or indi rectlj\ On "Principles." Mr. Stathnm then had a word or two with the member for Wellington North, who had made some interjection. Mr. Statlmm said: "If a man is going to set his heart on getting a seat in I ho Ministry, and following the party blindly until ho docs get a seat in die Ministry, thon ho is welcome to it. I would sooner keop my self-respect and stick' to my principles." He continued that ho could not believe that all those mssociated with him in the Progressive Party would go back on their principles. Ho believed that they would still hold for I ho election of tho Ministry, if not by the dominant party, then by tho whole Tlouso. If members refused to voto for this amendment, they would be deliberately voting to reduce the powers of private members in the House. Ho understood that tho Prime Minister during tho election campaign guvo utterance to the opinion that what this country wanted was a. Government that was truly national. Mr. Massey: Hear, hear. And tho •country got it. 'Mir. Slathani enid that if his pro-pci-'nl wero carried by tho House it would relieve, the Prime Minister of a heavy responsibility. Mr. Massey. If I tvos n coward it wouild. Mr. Stathnm said that it was very difficult for tho Prime Minister to overlook old personal and party associations in the selection of Ministers. It would be bettor for him to bo relieved of his task of selecting Ministers, and to leave the choice to tho party. Mr. Statlwin Ihen read out the names of tho niem'liei'S of the Progressive * Party, as follow:— Messrs. Anderson, Parr, Lee, Sykes, Stewart, Harris, J. M. Dickson, V. TI. ftaed, A. K. Newman, Wilkinson, Mander, and Young. Mr. Stntham closed his speech with a plea that mom hers of the- House ought to be alio to assert ft certain, amoiujt at independence. The

mcirfbers wore elected by the people, and he claimed that the representatives of tho people ought to be allowed to elect the Ministry. He explained that ho had not voted for tho no-confidence motion because it seemed to him that tho difference between tho Liberal Party and the Reform Party was the difference 1«tween Twcedle-duru and Twcodle-dee, and he did not care to voto for cither of Ihcm. i

A No-Confidence Proposal. Mr, MASSEY mndo (in explanation of his attitude towards tho amendment as Loader of the House. Following precedent, lie said, there was only, ono course for him to take, and that was to accept tho amendment as a motion of want of confidence; There had never been in his recollection an amendment moved on tho Address-in-Reply,' or on' tho motion to go into Committee of Supply on the Financial Statement, that had not been accepted ns a want d confidence motion. He was following tho usual precedent; if he took any other course ho would bo making a new precedent, and ono which might be extremely inconvenient to tho mover of tho amendment in tho event of his ever becoming the leader of the party on the Treasury benches. As one of Ins reasons for treating tho motion as a want of confidence proposal, lie said that it was dealing with tho dominant party in the House, and with tho business of the dominant partv. Mr. .T M. DICKSON (Chalmers) seconded the amendment. He felt sure tha. if the Prime Minister had not treated tho amendment as a- want-of-confidenco motion, many members of the Reform Partv would have votwl for it. Three members of the Ministry had committed themselves to the principle. ' Tho Hon. E. P. Lee: Who are thby? Mr. Dickson: The names have already been given and need not be repeated here. . .

Mr. Lee: Well, my name was given, and I deny it. Mr. Dickson: "You will have an opportunity to deny it." If nny member of the Progressive Party did not understand that the election of Ministers by memffers was the chief plank of the party, he is reflecting upon his own intelligence. The member for Mataura (Mr. Anderson) had been deputed toy the Progressive Party to lay this plank beforo the Prime Minister, and no doubt ho had done so. "My faith in this principle," said Mr. Dickson, "was strengthened by tho present Minister of Internal Affairs, tho Minister, of Education, and the member for Bay of Islands, who were very strong on this point." Mr. Dickson proceeded to argue in support of tho principle of the elective Executive. He considered Ministers to bo out of town with private members, who had very_ little- influence indeed. If the elective Executive principle had been accepted by the Government, the Progressive Party would never have been formed. It had been distinctly understood that no member of thnt party was to accept office without the consent of the party. Mr. Lee: Where was that arranged? Mr. Dickson: That was in Auckland. My. Leo: I was not at the Auckland meeting. MR. MASSEY'S REPLY. v "CAESAR AND BRUTUS."

The Right Hon. W.' F. MASSEY (Prime Ministei) said that the mover of the amendment had referred to their long personal friendship. Ho conld reciprocate, and say that ho hoped what had happened during tho debate wou'd not anake the slightest differenco to that friendship. "i'lit at the samo time," continued Mr. Blassey, "I must say that there is no incident in my twenty-six years of political life'that I regrjt so much as the speech we heard this afternoon from Mr; Stntham. He talked about his friendship for me. I hop© that it will endure. But I am afraid that the friendship he feels towards me, after the speech ho made, is the -friendship that Brutus felt for Caeaar. I hope I am wrong." Tho 'amendment, said Mr. Massey, meant 'that the dominant party, or all tile members of tho House, should elect the memliers cf.tlie Ministry. The Homo as a whole had -nothing to do with party matters. The House was .above party, and it would be utteiiy impossible for the House to direct any party how to conduct its. affairs. That, would be out of the question altogether. He came, then, to the elective Executive—the election of Ministers by. the ftholo Houso. Ho was against the old party system. He had kept party in the background as much as possible, and nobody could say the members of ,tho party, with wludh he .was connected had been, given an advantage over other members. The feeling of the House on the tf.ective Executive principle should have been tested by means of a Bill, not by an amendment to the Address-in-ltopfy. He himself had believed in the elective Executive when first he had entered Parliament, and ho had voted moro than once for the Elective Executive Bill introduced by the late Sir William Steward. But as he learned political wisdom he had seen the weaknesses -» of the scheme. Tho elective Executive would not abolish party. The strongest party would hold a caucus, and the caucus would select tho Ministers. That would be sure to happen. His own experience of Parliamentary government wag that if a, Government was going to do good work, its members must bo in general agreement with one another. He gloried in the good work, that had been done by the National Government. But the weakness of that Government had been that on many questions its members iiould not agree, and so could not produce legislation. He and tho Lender of the Opposition had disagreed within the National Government on the land question, for example, and so they had prevented each other from bringing down any legislation., Another question on which there was disagreement was the control of the Public Sen-ice—political or non-political control. To have a Cabinet divided on those important questions would mean disaster. After 20 years of experience ho pointed out defects in the system. It would mean a reversion to caucus rule, which had been tho curs© of Australia in past years. ' i As to tho complaint that there was no. policy in the Governor-General's Speech, it was the usual custom in England and in New Zealand not to put finch statements into tho mouth of the King or of his representative. The usual custom had been followed. The Speech was intended to open Parliament officially and nothing more. Tho policy would bo in the. Financial Statement—a policy which, he believed, would.appeal to the people of New Zealand, ft policy consistent with his election promises, and the most democratic uolicy ever presonted to the New Zealand Parliament.

The Progressives. Things had occurred in his absence in England, but he was kept well posted. A meeting! of the party wits called before ho left. It was agreed that ns he would be returning to New Zealand on tho eve of tho election the party would need a platform. A committee was set up, of which Mr. Anderson was chairman, and the policy was* drawn. That policy he adopted with additions. Then it was proposed that there should ho changes in tho Government; he was miite willing, but he would not agree that Ministers should all be elected. He could not keep his self-respect and ngrco with' such a scheme, knowing from experience it would be unworkable. Ho had recently made somo appointments, and ft very unpleasant task it always was for a Prime Minister to select Ministers. In making the choice ho sought mon suited for tho work they had to do, without regard to personal friendship*. Ho had nothing to conceal about the appointments. Mr. Npvta: What about the other. Mmistcr ti be appointed? Mr. Massey said it would 1» a highly unconstitutional thing for him to appoint a Minister while a no-confidencc motion was b?fore tho House. Tie tad been in oflicc night years that night. If he wero beaten on this vote lie would go out of office cheerfully and without a whimper Hut he claimed that the Government was working as enthusiastically and as well ns any Government which the Parliament had ever known. He had been accused of being dilatory iii making appointments, but ho had To tin very careful, and tho country had not suffered. There were, however, eleven mombers of the Government already, one of them b»ing Sir William Fra9er, a Minister without portfolio and without salary, who would assist tho Leader of the Legislative Council. Tho Electoral System. Ho had been asked to improve the

electoral system, but it had never 'been stated by anyone exactly what change was desired. Personally he thought the present system Mr. Tlio figures quoted made it appear that the Government was a minority Government, but the Government did. not contest sixteen seats, and in order to get the figures used the votes of all the candidates in

those seats wero counted against tlie Government. That was not fair. The Government should have n share of those votes. The proportional representation . system was the most unpopular elective svstem to-day in every country where it had been-tried. It led to compromises and agreements between parties, and often the arrangements lent themselves to wire-pulling, intrigue and log-rolling, far worse than even the old scond ballot in Now Zealand. If ho wore shown something better than tho present system, ho would adopt it, but he would not accopt proportional representation. Only One Prodigal. Reverting again to the committee of tho party set up, he said ftiat nothing unfair to him had, been done. When a new party was proposed he was asked to bs leader of it. That, of course, was impossible, (but the compliment was paid I to him. Mr. Mander had been named as • ono of the "Rebels" "I say 'Rebels'l for want of a batter name." J Mr. Sullivan: Tlrey were naughty chil- j .dren while you were away. Mr. Massey: "When I came back there ' was no further trouble." He was 6orry, lie added, tlmt Mr. Statham had not returned to the fold. Air. Witty: He is in a good fold now Mr. Massey: "110 is not in. your fold. He is with you but not of you." (Laughter.) At the elections and before the elections, although lie brought no pressure to bear on anybody, all save one member professed loyalty to him. I'lie t first to do so was 111', Parr. Mr. JU. Stewart: I stood as an Inde. pendent. I said I would support you as again&t Sir Joseph 'Ward, Mr. Massey said that all save odb had promised to support Jiiin; that was the point ho wished to make. But Mr. Stathan would soon tire of being an Independent, which was an unenviable position in tho House. Possibly he Biiiiht como back to his old friends. Anihon. member: Thoro will be re joic.ihß then! Mr. Massey: "Yea, we'll kill the fatbed calf. Mr. Massey proceeded to refer to finance, and the need for economy, or the avoidance of extravagance, He spoke also of the cost-of-liv-ing problem. He recognised its difficulty and complexity.'' Profiteering had occurred, but it had not been the prime factor in \ the increase of prices, and that faot should he recognised, The deflation of the currency was a necessary preliminary to the reduction of prices and so was tho re-establishment- of the gold basis. Britain was moving in these directions, nnd New Zealand would follow, but sudden action would be disastrous. Important banking legislation probably would be submitted to Parliament during the present session. New Zealand was prosperous at present, but in_ order to maintain that state of affairs tho community must he industrious and economical. Prosperity could not run side by side with extravagance. Mr. Massey defended the. Imperial conwhich had brought .£150,000,000 into New Zealand during tho war, and discussed' the profits made on Dominion meat in Britain during the war. He mentioned many other matters. In a final word Mr, Massey odvised the rnembSr for Dunedin Central to withdraw his amendment and submit his proposals to tho House in the form of a Bill. This would be a better arrangement, and he, as head of the Gov-, eminent, would undertake that tho honourable member would have an opportunity of going through with it. MR. PARR REPLIES. WHY THE PEO'IRESSIVE PARTY DIED. Mr. C. J. PARR (Minister of Education) said that he regretted that his old friend the member for Dunedin Central had brought down this proposal in ita present form. Somo anembcrs of the House seemed to have the opinion that the Prime Minister lmd erred in making this motion a want of confidence motion, but alii tho older members in the Chamber would agree with him in the statement that tho Prime slinister had followed constitutional usage in his decision. In its present form the motion before the HOll6O was nothing more than a challengo to the leader of the Government. Mr. Statham: Not at all. Mr. Parr: "What was the object of bringing thig proposal if it was not a challengo? I am at a loss to understand how a motion of this kind could ndvantage anybody unless it were intended as a challengo to the Government." Ho maintained tlmt there could be ono issuo in the nmendmenfc—confidence, or want of confidence. Mr, Parr went oil to say, that if the honourable member had brought down his proposal in tho form of a Bill he would, not have embarrassed his old leader, or have harassed his old friends now cn tho Treasury benches, for which purpose it now seemed the motion 'must bo intended. Mr. Statham: You have no right to assume that. / Parr: "It is a fair assumption." He referred to tho mention made of individual members and Ministers by' Mr. Statlmm. "May I put this to the honourable gentleman," he^ontiuued: "Did he not consider that our littio talks together/in the lobbies, in an officii, talks that any meniUKs might have quite properly for the good of tho party, wern in confidence? Wo wore in our political youth, some of us, but I certainly thought theso talks wero in tho nature of some sort of confidence that would not bo betrayod by anyono. That is my view of the situation at any rate, I am sorry that was not the view of tho honourable gentleman. And there aro itono, of my associates in tho old radical wing of the party who will disagree with me.'' •A voico: Mr. Dickson/

Mr. Parr said that tho Progressive wing had had its genesis, just as the Prime Minister had stated.' Some members thought that they could do a good deal for tho party and the country by getting in order some sort of a platform. It was perhaps a pretty harmless sort of a conimittc*, and a pretty harmless sort of commission they undertook. At any rate, the committee had its beginning as he had said. If. was not correct that that party was personally disloyal to the Prime Minister. At tho veiy beginning tho member for Dunedin Central proposed to soparato from the Jteform Party, and form an Independent Party, but this view had been resisted by himself and others. The Primo Minister came back, and produced a policy that was moro progressive than that framed by tho committee of aiuateuri. During last session they had seen enough of the work of the Prime Minister to convinco them that ho wes quito progressive enough for them.

An Offer, Mr. Witty: You got tlio carrots! Mr. Parr: That is true, perhaps, bnt I am sure tlio honourablo member does not begrudge them to mo. I didn't nock the job. The Prime Minister would admit tlmt. I want to tell the member for Chalmers that if the honourable' gentleman thinks there is a member in th 9 Reform Party ivho thinks ho is better qualified to fill this feat and carry on ay job, I will step down to-night, with the consent of my leader, and submit myself -to a vote of my party. I don't want to hold this job if I havo not the confidence of my pavty." Mr. Statham: You are abandoning your old principle. Mr. Parr: Thero lias been no abandonment of principle. Mr. Vcitch: Thorn will.be no abandonment of office, you will see. Mr. Parr said that at the en<J. of last session the Progressive wins was as doad as Julius Caesar. At tho time the members of the wing were in Parliament pledged to support the leader of the Heform Party, and thev were not prepared to desert him in his_absence. In the last, weeks of the session most of the members of the wing were attending the party caucused. He went to the elector? offering his pledge that he would snnpovt Ml'. Massey in any want-nf-con-fidonco motion moved by Kir .Tnsenli AVnrd or tho lender of the Labour Party. Mr. Stntham: Did you ever say that you regretted you had not taken • the couvss T have taken? Mr. Parr: "Never. I give that statement an absolute denial, hero on flie floor of tho House." Ho said that when these things occurxcd ho had bcea in

danger of getting into bad company, but ] It; had been tile mistake • of political youth, and he had escaped from bad 1 company in timo. 110 regretted that < tho honorable member had, after many j years of friendship—a friendship which, us tar as ho (Mr. Parr) was concerned, lia-1 been rudely shaken by the events of tho night—had adopted tho courso ho had followed, and had, in effect, intimated that he would form a new party, it would be a party in which there could be no bickerings or disputes, because as far as it was possible to sec, it would consist of only ono member. For his own part bo had' dono with forming new parties. That was sheer noiisenso, This country would not 6tand more than two ' parties. -The country did not want a number of groups of. members, some oi tliem no more than mere disgruntled-of; nce-scekers. ''I have no doubt, Mr. Parr, "that this is an exceedingly amusing matter for our friends opposite, an.l I regret that an old and trusted member of tho Reform Party should have thought fit to bring this matter up in this utterly futile and irrelevant way, and give. cause for rejoicing. to those who do not wish us weii." He appealed to I Mr. Statham to withdraw-his motion. I The Opposition Leader i Mr W:"D. S. MACDONALD (Loader ' of tho Opposition) said that to mom- : ber for Dunedin Central had levelled a definite charge .against three new members of the Ministry, and there had refutation of it. He though* he could tell the House more than had been told by the Minister of Education and the Prime Minister. The. Minister , of Education had sent out a tajy and dense smoke cloud, but. the fact ~-ns that they had given certain Pledges, and it seemed that they bad not. kept, them. Thero had been no loyalty among 1 certain members of the party last session He. could tell something about overtures made by members of tho Keforin Party last year Mr. Jfawey: What about overtures "for a Speaker if you got a majority? Mr. Mac Donald :;I challenge the ! rime Minister or any member of the ilmistry to say wh«ther I ever approached n member of Parliament for his vote, or ever tried to take a man away from his party in any way. I never mentioned tile Speaker's name to anyono. Mr. Massey: Not the present Speaker, of course. , Mr. Mac Donald: "No, nor any other Speaker. I never discussed tho Speakershin with any member' of your party, and I challenge every member of your partv here now as to whether that is or is not so. I am not built for intriguing in any way at all. Mr. Mac Donald advised the Prime Minister to adjourn the debate and giro the Ministers whto had been named timo to consider their position. If they did the right thing they would resign their portfolios at once. "I know some members of this House liavo no political honour in their systems," said Mr. MacDonald. "They are quite willing to barter their party if it suits them. If my honourable friends on the other side are going to take these matters lightly, I don't think tho public will take tho same view. I think ft most serious accusation has been made against a body of men —men who have been taken into the highest councils of the country. Their word and their pledge should be beyond reproach." Ho did not wish to give aw a) confidences. He would not say. what some of these gentlemen had said they would support. They bad not offered to support him. Mr. Parr: Do you suggest that I gave any confidence to your Mr. Mac Donald; No. You aro ono of the gentlemen I don't talk to very much. Mr.~ Massey; I don't think you are keeping up the dignity of Parliament. Mr. Mac Donald; I want the Prime Mir.idter to maintain the dignity and honour of Parliament ..as much as anyone how, and lib can do that to-night by asking these honourable gentlemen who have been charged here to-day— Mr. Parr: Tell lis what is the charge. Mr. Mac Donald: You have been told the charge. I think, it' is tho most regrettable thing I have seen during my ' political lift. I know of my own knowledge why certain gentlemen were. appointed to tho Ministry. When it is I said that it was selection, I say it was demand. Assumption Without Knowledge. Mr. E. P. LEE (Minister of Justice) said the Leader of tho Opposition had been too ready to assume without knowledge that everything Mr. Statham had said was correct. Mr. Mao Donald knew nothing of tho facts. Ho was championing the cause of Mr. Statham for his own purpos.es. The Liberal leader had been a disappointed'.man after the , election, and that fact emerged from . his speech. What were tho charges to which Mr. Mac Donald had' referred? . No definition had been offered. The 1 cliarge apparently was that members ot i the "Progressive" group had undertaken 1 to demand an elective Executive, and to support no " Ministry. That ■ charge, as far as Mr. Lee himself was i concerned, wan not justified. "I do . not support tho electivo Executive," said . Mr. Lee. "The Leader of the Opposi- . tion cannot say that I have supported • an elective Executive at any timo." In any case the amendment now before tho i House had become e> want-of-confulence motion, and so its subject matter , submerged in the question of tho Gov- . erument's position. Mr. Lee added that he had regarded tha mqeting? of the "Progressives" as confidential." Ho liimi solf had- not sought office. Ho had refused office tho first timo it was offered, 1 and had pledged himself'to support Mr. J Massey at tho general election regardless i of any question of office.- Mr. Statham [ had not served the cause, indicated ih , his amendment by dragging in ,the names of his brother members. Ho had I merely belittled those members in the , eyes of tho public for no objcct what- . ever. Mr. Statham, in personal explanation, j asked if Mr. Lee had not known that j the first plank in the platform of tho Progressive Party was tho election of the Ministry. , Mr. Lee said the plank had contained , many suggestions, and their order did not matter much. He had not pledged himself to any particular plank, and ho had never understood that tlio_ party was pledged to support no Government that was not elective. . Tho Hon. J. A. HANAN (Invercargill) quoted an "eminent authority" as sayinij that party government made political liaTS of politicians by necessity. The House had witnessed 6ome political lying and wriggling on tho part of some individuals. Tho Speaker: The honourable member must not Mr. Hanan: "I withdraw those expressions." (Laughter.) The revelations made that day had placed Mr. Massey in si most awkward posrition, It was clear tbnt men now associated with him had tried to use the political stiletto behind his back. The party system- produced that sort of-thing. Mr. Hanan proceeded for some time along these lines, and presently crossed svords with Mr; Massey. who called him a "political contortionist," Mr. nanan mado an angrv reply. » Mr. Massey: Does the honourable mem- : ber deny that he was willing to take ■ office under meP

Mr. Hanan: I deny that emphatically. Mr. Masscy: Then I say you were, (laughter.) ' Mr. Hanan: That emphasises the point that T made in connection with tho remarks of that eminent authority. The New Party was Dead. Mr. '3. J. ANDERSON '(Minister of Internal Affairs) said he had been chairman of, the Progressive Party. What happened in that party, or in the Kefrom Party, had nothing to do with Parliament. The House was seeing private duty linen tfashed in public. Alcmbern of tho Progressive Party had pledged themselves not to accept 6cats in a Ministry without tho consent of the others, but after tho election the party was dead and the wholo business was ended. He had felt freo to take office when it was offered him, and he did not feel now that he deserved any of the nspcrwons that other .members had Fought to place upon him. The discussion continued for some time, not at all on tho merits of Mr. Statham's motion, but on the merits of his charges against Ministers. Mr, Mnssey rose nt one stnge to deny tho statement that he had had to givo oflije to certain Ministers because of their demands. On the contrary, ho said, not dno of them had asked him for ft sent in the Ministry, He said also that Mr. Anderson had come to him early in, the evening and offered to re-

sign if he (Mr. Massey) thought him to blame. "That," said Air. Alassey, "was the act of an honourable man. I urn 6ony that the proceedings of this House have lowered Parliament in tho estimation of- this country more than anything that has happened in tho past 20 years." "I am not to rnke up the wretched past," said Dr. Newman (Wellington East). "Tho Progressive Party began as a party of very high principles. But they melted, and our leaders 6eem to have sold us for a handful of'silvcr." He would vote for the amendment. He had proved his loyalty to tho Government on earlier motions, and ho stood pledged to support tho electivo Executive sydtem. Tho amendment was defeated by 41 votes to 30. Tho Houso rose at 2.10 a.m. fdtureToans COMPULSION IS PROBABLE. Compulsory loans in the future wero foreshadowed by the Prime Minister in tho Houso of Representatives Inst night. Mr. Alassey said tho Government had been told during tho afternoon by Air. Statham (Dunedin Central) that it should have raised compulsory loans during tho war. That was exactly what it bad done. He could tell the House that money was' still reaching i the Treasury in oonsequenco of the operation of tho compulsory provisions of the war loans. "I fully expect," added Air. Alassey, "that we will require again before very long to adopt the principle of compulsory .contributions to 10.m5." SOCIAL HYGJENE ACT NOTIFICATION OV VENEREAL DISEASE. The Hon. Colonel Collins . yesterday moved in the Upper House: "That in the opinion of this Council it is desirable that the Social Hygiene Act, 1.U17, 'should be so amended as to provide for the compulsory notification by medical Sractitioners and others to the Health department of cases of venereal disease, and that 6Uch notification should bo by numbers or other symbols and not by name, except in cases where, owing to the failure of the patient to take necessary precautions,, it may be advisable, in tho interests cf public health, that tho identity of the patient should be disposed; nnd, further, that officers of the Health Department be under an obligation of secrecy with respect to information (as to individuals) coming to their knowledge in the course of their duties under tho Social Hygiene Act." The mover said that the system of notification ho suggested would involve _no breach of the secrecy owed by ft medical piactitioner to his patient. It had lons been apparent from the figures placed before tho Australasian Aledical Congress at its triennial conferences thai active measures must be taken to winbat venereal disease in Australasia. An international conferoneo of specialists in 1913 had pronounced in favour of a system of confidential notification. He believed the medical profession, generally supported notification as a means of .providing statistical information about tide amount of disease that had to be controlled.

The Hon. R. Jfoore seconded the motion, and expressed his conviction that drastic measures should be taken to repress venereal disease. Sir Francis Bell (Leader of the Council) said that if only men and women could be got to use common een6«, venereal disease might bo wiped out of existence in New Zealand. The people should be made to understand that the disease could actually be stamped out within two generations. With reference to tho motion bc-foro the Council, he thought that its main object might be achieved by a better means than the amendment of tho Social Hygiene Act. It was almost certain that Parliament would this session have to consider important amendments to tho Public Health Act Tbo introduction of compulsory notification might conveniently be advocated when the Public Health Act w:as under review. Sir Francis Bell reminded Councillors tliat tho "notification" proposed by the motion was notification to the Health Department. It was already Rn offence for a person suffering from venereal disease not to seek the aid of a medical practitioner. The motion was carried on tho voices.

THE POTATO EMBARGO DB, THACKER HAS AN IDEA. ' Attain questions were asked in the House yesterday about the embargo on the importation of New. Zealand potatoes into Australia. Dr. Thacker said that tho potato crop in Canterbury had' been very prolific and very free from blight. Ho had himself sent a telegram to the Premier of New South Wales, who, in turn, had sent it on to the Primo Minister of Australia. Mr. Hushes had replied to the telegram to the effect that thoi embargo could not be removed owto . the danger of introducing into Australia tho disease known as "powdery scale," _ and owing to the need for the protection of tho Australian pota'o industry. Farmers in Canterbury, said Dr. Thacker, had been exhorted: to grow as many potatoes as possible, and now they were loft with the prospect of getting J?,l a ton for them, whereas if they could export their potatoes to Australia, they could get JSH 10s. a ton. He suggested to the Prime _ Minister that ho should act in conjunction with tho leader of the.Labour Party in the Houso, and get into touch with the Labour Premier of Now South Wales, with a view- to having the embargo removed. Mr. Massey said that the embargo had beon imposed, not by the State Government of New South Wales, but by tho Federal Government. Dr. Thacker: The State Government could force the thing. It is only a trivial little matter. Mr. Ma6sey said ttat ho did not agree as to this. If the Federal Government hud made up its mind not to nllow our potatoes to be imported, it would be difficult for the New South Wales Government to do anything-. He had made repeated representations on tho matter to the Australian Government, but without succese. He had a great deal of sympathy with tho ]>otato growers in their predicament, and if there was anything that ho could do moro for theAi ho would bo very glad to do it. j Dr. Thacker The Labour Party here could help you. I Mr. Massey: I tldnk tho Mayor, of Christchurch should go over there and present tho position from the point of view of Canterbury. (The Mayor of Christchurch is Dr, Thooker.) . ■ PAPER-SAVIMGGESTION The Hon.- G. Jones yesterday asked tho Lender of the Legislative Council the following question:—"Whether, in order to utilise to tho greatest advantage tho limited supplies of papor available for printing Parliamentary publications and to avoid the utter t.hoso Bupplies in meeting demands winch might be quite unnecessary, tho Government will mako an adequate oharge in accord-; anco with tho.cost, of production for Par- | lkmentary publications conferred on members beyond a-single copy of each of I such aa may bo printed; and whether tho Government will also restrict tho number of copies of publications conferred on members, or, whenever possible, issue Parliamentaiy publications ' only whon members apply for them?" Mr. Jones was informed that the problem of paper supplies and the present shorfcigo would be discussed by a joint committee of both Houses. MAORI WAR VETERANS A motion for tho introduction of Mr, It. A. Wright's Maori War Medal Bill provided an opportunity for the revival of a familiar appeal. Several members urged the Government to extend its concessions to tho diminishing band nf Maori war veterans, by permitting tho award of medals and tho payment of pensions to men who had not so far been able to prove that they were actually under firo during tho Maori wars. Tho Bill was mid a lirst time and set down for second reading. A SURE CURE Mr. Massey gave a prescription last night for tho social ill of land speculntton. "I am quite certain," he said, "that tho financial position into which we arc getting will stop speculation. Dear money will stop it as nothing else will."

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https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/DOM19200709.2.67

Bibliographic details
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Dominion, Volume 13, Issue 244, 9 July 1920, Page 8

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7,653

ADDRESS-IN-REPLY Dominion, Volume 13, Issue 244, 9 July 1920, Page 8

ADDRESS-IN-REPLY Dominion, Volume 13, Issue 244, 9 July 1920, Page 8

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