THE HOUSE

Dominion, Volume 13, Issue 32, 1 November 1919, Page 8

THE HOUSE

The Houao of Representatives met at 2.30 p.m. * Amendments to the Housing Bill, the Railways Bill and the Post and Telegraph Bill were introduced by Message from the Governor-General. The PRIME MINISTER, stated that the amendments to the Railways Bill were on lines suggested by Ihe Railways Committee. THE HOUSING BILL Dr. THACKFR (Christellurch Fast) asked if a local body wliieh erected houses under the Housinr Bill would be subject to the limits of income provided in the cases of workers' homes. Mr. MASSEY replied that a gront deal of liberty would !>e allowed local bodies fu making regulations governing their own schemes of construction. The ineonio limit would not be fixed by ihe Act in respect of local bodies.

Mr. .T. P. LTJKF, (Wellington North) asked if the State Advances Office would handle the loans to local bodies for housing. Mr. Massey replied that n special department. would be created. RAILWAYMEN'S PAY. STATEMENT BY THE PWME MINISTER, The ."Right Hon. W. F. M ASSET (Minister of "Railways) moved the second reading of the Government Railways Amendment Bill, saying that the only important part of the Bill was in tho schedules fixing the rates of pay. The effect of the increases would bo to add to tlie salaries of railwaymen the bonuses they had received in the Avar period. deferring to the note dealing with promotion by merit, -which clauso ivas deleted by the committee, Mr. Mas.sev said that he had to admit his sympathy for the principle in the nole. At present nromotion was mainly bv seniority, and this was not a system likely to give opportunities to young men of ability. The committee also had recommended tho selling _ up of a board to inquire into the wages and working: conditions of men in the lisilway Service. Tt was hoped that (hi* board would make for better relations between the Service and the Government. Tt was | not at present intended that Ihe board should be permanent. Tic expressed his appreciation of Ihe loyallv and industry of tho men of the Service in the war period. Some increases wcro to be given to men in the higher Trades of the Service. The new ratiy might be considered hmh, but he would ask members to consider that if we were lo keep in our own country the best bruins it produced, we must pay n<loquis'p salaries. The salaries now offered in the new scale were ur,t higher than were paid, to similar officers in Australia. These increases would involve increases lo ihe heads of oilier Departments of tlie Public Service. Tie hoped that Ihe passing of 111" Kill would lead to an even more satisfartorv slnlo of things than had existed previously in tho Tiailway Service. The first Division. SFR- JOSEPH WARD (Lender of the Opposilion) said he did not believe in Ihf slenpini; system of increments in Hie First Division of the Service. Men should get from the beginning the full par of I heir positions, lie did. nol approve, however, of giving these bis increments o r salary lo men who i-.ere alreaiy i.i a position lo re lire if they cbnsc t.n do so. and tho retiring allowances they would receive would add henvilv lo th" Im on the S'liperannualioii Fund. !{» objrcled to the Superannuation Fund being used t" pvovid." big retirin" allo'v.T'-es, equivalent to comfortable salaries. This humanitarian scheme of superannuation would break down if big salaries were to | be pai<l by way of allowances, Some of

Ihe officers lo receive Ihese big salaries were certain to retire soon, and on Iho eve of their retirement tliev were given salaries ■.vhieli would greully increase their retiring allowances. He asked why all other officers of the Fu.blic Service wiric Ix'in;; over. Mr. M'lSSlvY said thai, he had explained before that these increases were only part of the reeummeiidalions ol the board. The recommendations respect ins other br-iriches of the l'ublin Service would come later, lie invited *>»• Joseph Ward to move lo reduce the salaneb H he wished to do so.

Amendments Threatened. Sir Joseph Ward said that he would move for a reduction in every one o Ihese high salaries, and ho would call fi'.r a reduction on every one ol t hem. 11.0 had not intended to do so, but. now tho Prime Minisver had asked him to do it. lie repeated his declaration that :t was unlair to give big retiring allowances to seine officers, equal to high salaries, while lower-paid men rccenetl insufficient allowances on which to live. He declared that when ito first established tnc .Superannuation Fund ho was opposed strongly by men associated with tlie Prime .Minister. Mr. Massey denied this vigorously, but again tin* Josepti M ard matte the statement.

Mr.' Massey: i challenge you to say that I opplsed it. Sir Josepn.Ward: "That is not what i said." Sir Joseph Hard protested against largely increased payments being madetu senior officers w lien the rank and file of the Kailwa.y Service were not receiving eiiougli to live in reasonable conitort. Some ot the lower-paid men could not avoid running into debt under present conditions, fie tliougiit the payment ot anotner bonus would be justified. Mr. Massey: A bonus would not couio into the Bill. This Bill deals with salaries. A bonus is a matter for Cabinet. Sir Joseph Ward said that lie would support ine Prime Minister in paying another bonus if it was proposed. He was sorry the JJiii had not been brought down earlier in the session. There was strong lueiiug among tile lower-paid railwayinen as a result of the preferential treatment that was being given to tlje highly-paid men. He would test the feeling of the House on the point when (he Bill was in Committee. Preferential Treatmont . Mr. T. M. WILFORD (Hutt) said it was the duly of the Government to increase the payments to superannuated railwavmen. He diu not know how the country would view the action of the Government in making greatly increased payments- to the First Division, while doing nothing tor the Second Division sin-.l tho siiuernnnuated men. Returned soldiers had not received fair treatment from the Department. A. certain man whose wife was sent to the South Island bv the doctors was ordered to go to the North Island. Ho explaiued the position. and was told that he must go north or resign from the service. He resigned and sought casual work. But the Department sent out a circular to stationmasters ordering that tha man should nut bo employed at any time. When the A.S.R.S. protested tho General Manager saitl the. circular had been issued bv mistake. A young apprentice who went to Ihe front and fought for four veins desired reinstatement in the Department on his return, and was told lie must first sign a document indemnifying ihe Department against any breakdown in his health because in his youth, Iwforo the war, he had fits. Casual llanos, even if they had been in the service for twenty years, had no right of appeal The trouble in the Railway Service was that the men of the Second Division had not received an adequate advancc. Skilled men wero leaving tho service because they were much better paid in private employment.

Mr. T. If. SIDEY 'Dunedin South) also .mentioned tho rfrievances of Second Division men. He thought the ouestion of ratlwaymen's pay was being approached front a wrong standpoint. Tho Government dccided what fares and freights were going to be charged, and' then calculated what amount of money was available for wages. The proper course would be to lix just rates of pay, and then see what fares and freights renuiied to be charged.

Mr. AA T . A. VF/ITCH (AA'angaiiui) said that, the Government oughti to provide for better wages and better conditions in the Second Division of tho service. Hewould like the Minister to consider increasing tho married man's allowance, lie assured the House that promotion in the service was not dependent wlholly on seniority, but in no small degree upon merit also. He thought it would have been very wrong to give the management tlio right to promoto regardless of seniority. He approved very strongly of Ihe proposal to set up a board, as being likely to promoto better feeling in tlio service. He would liko to see some rearrangement of duties in the head office. The General Manager should delegate some subordinate the control of staff, and he himself should geti out more among the staff and among' tho general public, tiio users of the railways. He objected also to tho retention of the division barrier in the service. Ho advocated tilic compulsory retirement qf railway men at Ihe age of GO years.

High Salaries Justified. Tho Hon. AV. H. BERRIES, es-Min-ister of Railways, said thut the complaints against the payment of too high salaries 'were not justified. Everyone knew that we did not pay our experts high enough salaries. A\'e had lost Mr. Parry, one of the best hydro-electric experls in the whole world. He had never been adequately paid here. C'onld it be said thati the chief experts of iilie Railway Department—say. for instance, the Chief Mechanical Engineer, who built those engines which were "the pride of Now Zealand and the wonder of (he world"—wero not worth tho salary of ■E1250? His' own wish was that the amount should -bo .£ISOO. In point of fact, these administrative officers wero being advanced less percentage than tho Second Division were bei"g increased. He did not think that the best results would ever be obtained by a system of promotion by seniority. The effect of if, was that the men who lived in the Department and did nothing wrong progressed as a matter of course. There was no premium on merit. This was one of the evils of classification, and he thought, that one day the classification system would have lo go. The point raised by Sir Joseph AVard about the effect on tho Superannuation Fund of the big increases in salary was of little importance. It would amount to less than .CIGOO a year.

Mr. Massey said (hat if every ono of the administrative officers got tho maximum tlie total increased charge on the Superannuation Fund would be .£S(!" 10s. Mr. (ferries .said that this was a. mere bagatelle in view of the fact, that tho Government was pulting ,075,000 into tho fund. He hoped the House would accept Ihe schedule for the Second Division, as il had been agreed to by tho A.S.B.S. It. was hoped that the cost of living would decrease shortly. If it were shown that the wages paid did not amount to a living wage, this would be discovered by Ihe board and reported upon. Rut it was (rue that Ihe railwaymen bad got a shilling a day more bonus than the members of the other branches of the Public Service. The schedule had not been accepted by the locomotive men. But it bad been considered bv himself and the Department Hull 11 fair offer was made lo Ihe locomotive men. They had, along with other branches, a fair advance in pay, and a considerable improvement in conditions. Tho men had lone asked for an eight hours day, and this had been given lo them.

Well Managed. He claimed liliat during the war the Xew Zealand railways bad bc.eii well having rogavd to the conditions obtaining. Men had to be released for seivicc, and the railways sorvic.j had In be curlailcd in consequence. But freights and fares had been raised lo_ cover possible losses, and the rale _ol profili remained much higher than in any of Hi' Australian railways. He considered that Ihe railways irid dime their duly to Ihe Slab in tho whole war period. The railw;n- polity of thus; times avis a war policy, and the facilities provided could not lie compared with those for 0 peace policy. That: was a fallacy in the too frequent criticism of Ml? Uailwav Department in its train programmes. Railway Hoiking. Mr. J. T. M. HOKNSBT (Wnir.irr,™) said that the conditions of the Second Di-

vision men ought to bo .improved very nnie.li if justice was to be done to t li»v. Tin.' inou at dome 1 railway settlements— lie mentioned Cross Creek—wero not decently housed, mid tile Department would not act promptly in this urgent matter. He urged that tiio workers in the service should lie better "aid for their labour. Koine ol' (he men were miserably pa-id having regard tu their rpF;'onsiijilmc.> and ott'en the risks of their work. So'" workers in flic scvice wen; much wree oIT to-day with their bonuses than, they were before the war.

Mr. R. M'CAU.IiM (Wnirau) said that the Prime .Minister, who was. to tie conn try for all Departments ol State, was proposing in this Bill lo raise tho salaries of high railway officers; and at the same timo also was neglecting the officers of all otter Departments. Ha had put himself into an untenable posUion. 'Hi? Opposition was going to pr';w the claims of the low-paid men. 'J'he Liberals reali=«-d they wero just about as strong as Hie Clovernnient Tarty.

Mr. Masscy. With your allies. Mr. M'Callum replied that jx>litical parties, when counting votes, did not trouble to examine whether the voters wore decent, right-thinking people. Mr. Massey. t don't think you ought to give the show awav like that. Mr. H. E. HOLLAND (Grey) said that no family man could pay his way on a wage of !fe. a day The cost of living required an increase to ,£1 a day. Yet the Government, was proposing to leave K\s low-paid men lo suffer hardship while other men who already were receiving .CIOOO a year were to have an increase of ,B5 a week. There was nothing in the management of the railways to show that the couutry got value for the big salaries. Mr. Holland complained lhat Ihe poorly paid men were discriminated against in regard to liolidays, allowances, and all other matters.

Mr. G. It .SYKKS (Mastorton) said that the members of the Hailway Service hnd rendered the country very valuable and faithful service during the war. Ho thought the salaries offered to administrative officers were not unduly high, and in support of this opinion he quoted tho salaries paid to similar officers in the Victorian and other Australian railways. He hoped and believed that the board to be set up would do good for the men m the service, and he hoped their report would be promptly acted upon by f]ie Government. He expressed the opinion that in New Zealand a. man with a family could not subsist on 12?. a day. Mr. ,T. V. BRO\\"N T (Napier) said that more wages should be paid to men of the Second Division. Tho cost of living could not fall for years ,t,o come. Conditions all over the world weie causing prices to rise, and the Government would have to face the facts.

Another Is. a Day. Mr. J. A. NASH (Pnlmerston) said that the Hallways Committee, generally speaking, hail been satisfied with the generous way in which the Minister of flnilways had met its suggestions. Local budies were paying liis., lis., and 15s. a day to their employees and the Government should not expect men to work for less than a living wage. Ho suggested an immediate increase of Is. a day. He was opposed io tli9 exercise of a veto by the Minister in nppeal cases when the appeal board was unanimous. Some relief should be given to the rnilwaymen at once, without waiting lor the recommendations of the Board uf Inquiry. Mi'. L. M. JSITT (Chrisbhureh Xortli) said that he had been Snterviowsd several times by representatives of the Sbcojkl Division men, and ho had come fo the conclusion that many of these men were enduring very real hardships, 'i'hey were a superior class of men, imbued with a desire to do well for their country, but some of them were unable to mako ends meet. This was a scandalous state .of. things in a rich young country like oursi We must pay these men their just dues. The first duty of tiio Government was to see that no decent man, doing his duty, should be put in such a position that lie could not pay his debts.

Mr. S. G. SMITH (Taranaki) said he would support the retention of tho salary of >£3000 for the General Manager of linjlwnys. The ex-Minister hud said that the. A'S.H.S. had accepted the schpdulo for tho Division, but had the representatives of tho A. U.S. A. seen the schedules for tho First Division? Hud they known of the big advances ■ to he given to men of thu First Division, they would not have been so ready lo take the dole offered to tliE-m, Only by the payment of adequate wages could the service 'be made happy and content. The railwaymen had always adopted constitutional methods of advancing their claims, and they found themselves to-day in a worse position than unions which had /lung law and order to tho winds.

The Casual Men, •Mr. H. G. ELL (Christchurch South) said that the nini at the head of tho K.u'lwny Depurt.inent seemed to Wicvc that tho Department was a proprietary ccnucrn ilistend of being ft public utiiltv owned by the people. The mil waymen were rot bette" off than they were twenty yours ago. Tlie casual hands who vei'e paid Is. Oil. per hour far broken time, were in great need of assistance. The Department required th : s rastKil lft-lxmr, and it was not justified in its alfitudo towards tho casual men. Mr. E. P. J/EE ,Oamaru) said that locomotive men lind never occr-pted the schedule in the Bill. The demands of these men were we!,: known to the head* of the Department .and ho did not understand why apparently reasonable requests had been disregarded in tho schedule. Mr. Herries: Most of them have been granted. The conditions come under reffuhnoiis. They harp got an inct'easo in pay. Mr. \\. H. FIELD (Otnki) saitf the enormous increases proposed in salaries of senior oflilQfs were going to involve tho Department in increased expenditure all round. fie Ihougltl tho increases should have been roiien' until I In l position of (h« Second Division men bad been improved. Mr. "R. W. SMITH (Wnimarino) argued in favour of an Automatic system of promotion. Mr. Herries: Wouid it have been fair to promote. m»n into the positions of men who had gone to the f-oo' ? Mr. ' Smilii said the Department should nav the wanes of efficiency to the men win had made themselves efficient. (Left sitring.)