THE HOUSE

Dominion, Volume 13, Issue 29, 29 October 1919, Page 8

THE HOUSE

The House of Representatives met at 2.30 p.m. MAORI REPRESENTATION. The Maori Representation Bill was introduced and read a first time. EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE. The Expiring Laws Continuance Bill was introduced by Governor's Messago and read a first time. RAILWAYS AUTHORISATION. Silt 'WILLIAM ERASER (Minister of Public Works) moved the second reading of the 'Railways Authorisation Bill. Ho said that in the schedule of the Bill two railways had been mentioned by mistake. tho Te Roii-Opunake extension and tho branch from the North Island Main 'trunk into Kailui Valley. '.Mr. T. M. WILFOIU) (Hutt) said that t'lv.l tirst soil of a railway from Featherst.oll to Murtinborough had been turned hut. no work had been done. _ He was particularly concerned with this question because ho believed that 0110 'day a railway from Wellington to Martinborough by way of Wainui-o-mnta would,bo authorised. Jle urged tho advantage of such a, deviation to avoid the Itimntaka incline. He asked what prospect thero was of having a survey maae of either of the proposed routes. Possibly, if funds were not available in any other way, tho Government would allow tho people of Wairarapa and Wellington to raise tho money.

Mr. H. M'CALLUM (Wairau) said that, the.member for the district had wished to have this Martinborough lino laid. There could not' be doubt that the railway would open up a. large area of very valuable territory. Mr. J. T. M. HORNSBY (Wairarapa) also spoke of tho need for tho Eimutaka deviation. He said that an official return had shown that the saving of running on tho Upper Hutt and Cross Creek section would pay 3 per cent. 011 the cost, of the doviation, with one per cent, sinking fund. Much wasteful expenditure would bo saved by the donation, and tho people would have advantage by the good service. lie askod for better housing and sanitation at tho Cross Creek railway settlement. Referring to the Martinborough railway, he said that tin: Tauheremknu camp railway was the first portion of this railway, and JMOOO more was provided for the extension of the line. Ho hoped that tho Minister would spend moro on this lino. The Hon. A. T. Nf-lATA (Eastern .Maori) urged that members representing districts already supplied with good roads and railways should look at questions of railway authorisation more from the point of view of those newer districts less well provided for. Ho feared that if more authorisations were made for now 'railways l.n settled districts, it. would prejudice the interests of tho newer districts; Ho made a special aplieal 011 behalf of the East Coast and Bay of Plenty districts. Ho hoped that the East Coast Denelopmijiit League would invite members of Parliament to visit their district. M'r. W. 11. FIELD (Otaki) spoko of tin* proposed deviation of the Main Trunk railway in Paeka.kariki, and of tho road question to supply the district. Tho new railway was to be taken round the coast, and his suggestion to tho Public Works Department was that the new road should follow tho present railway route. As the road question was a pressing one, ho urged tho Clovernment to go 011 at once with the railway round the eo:v-f. He could not understand the proposal of the Fublio AVorks engineers that the road should be taken along a route different from that of the present railway. The Minister of Public Works 'Sir William Fia-,or), in reply, said that 110 had great hopes flint a practical route to Hi" Wairarapa would bo found via the Wainui Valley, but 110 complete survey hud yet been completed. Tho route was very gor: ; up to a certain noini. but there wi some difficulties Inter. The Hill was read a second time and committed. Sir William frnser moved to strike out of the schedule tho two lines mentioned bv him earlier. Tho amendment was adopted without discussion.

Dr. Newman asked tho Minister lo authorise Ihe deviation between Ngaraulinnga and Tawa Flat. This was a. iteccfsarv corollary t<> the Pliimnerton-Pae-knl.ariki deviation. Sir William Eraser said ho had provided the half-loaf. . The other half would have to wait for a later occasion. The Depart men I required' lo economise labour, and it had quite enough lines on hand at the present time. He recognised the desirability of imnrovinsr Ihe line to Tawa Flat. Tho Bill was reported from committee. read a third time, and passed. COAL MINES AMENDMENT. A LABOUR PROTEST. SIR WILLIAM PHASER (Minister of Public Works) moved the second reading of the Coal Jlines Amendment Bill. Mr. R. SEJIT'LE (Wellington South) obiccted to the provision authorising tho Minister of Mines to issue permits for men to. work at the face without tho term ot practical apprenticeship at present required. This was to allow the Jlinistcr to fill coal mines with unskilled labour at times of strikes or lock-outs. An unskilled man fin a mine was a danger to himself and everybody else. The miners would resent the provision very warmly. If it was carried in the face of their protests, the outcome would be discontent, and trouble. The. provision would not make for industrial peace. Mr. H. HOiiLAND (Grey) also objected to the proposed extension of the Minister's powers. All tlio minors asked was that no man shquld bo allowed to take charge of a face in a coal mine until ho had had three years' experience. The miners' representative had ai'.rmdy protested against the clause, which would allow inexperienced men to be put into a mine for strike-breaking purposes. The mine representatives in the House would have to tight: the clause with all tho means permitted by the forms of the House. He appealed to tho Minister to consent to the withdrawal of the clause. SIR WILLIAM FRASER said he could not conceive of a Jtinister of Mines risking life in the way suggested. But a 'Minister might be able, to put into a mine men fully competent but , did not fulfil the conditions of the old law. The rule, now proposed was the law in New South Wales. Mr. Holland: As n result of strike conditions. , Sir William Fraser s-vtl the evidence taken by the Mines Committee had shown that » gold miner, although thoroughly experienced, was not allowed to take charge of a face in a coal mine. The Bill was road ft second time and committed. . An amendment moved by the Minister, giving workmen's inspectors the right, to inspect genr Jit conl mines, was iidopted. Dangers Alleged. Mr. P. Fraser urged the Jlinistcr of Mines to delete the clause objected to by the Laboui members. The present law provided thai no miner should have charge of a face in a raal mino until he had had at least, three years' experience oi coat mining, of which one year had been at the face, with an experienced miner. That provision had been adopted m lpj after the Hunlly disaster. It provided necessnrv protection for the miners, who were all" at the morcy of one inexperienced man. * •, i Mr T. M. Wilford (Hntt) said lie would like the Minister to answer the ihfit lintl been put fonvfiiu bj previous speaker?. Tho Government uns not entitled to risk the lives of miners. He remembered the Huntly disaster and realised the importance of siwrtling against any amendment of the l«v\v tiuir would endanger life. . Sir Joseph Ward (Leader of tho Opposition) said ho would oppose the clause. The proposal was to give tho Jtinister of Jlines power to put any man at all into a coal mine, regardless ot m» experience or qualifications. Hub was not right. The efiort of Parliament for many years had been to 111111Hon. W. Nosworlhy: How is a man c?oing to learn coal mining? ° Sir Joseph AVard. replied that it would be" as reasonable for the Minister to issue, permits to inexperienced men to drnc engines. statement _ Sir William Fraser said (lie Bill had come from Sir Joseph Ward.s colleague, Ihe late Minister of Mines, it had the present. Jlinistcr's approval The provision to which exception was beiii, taken had been inserted because theio was a close corporation among the coal miners now. Tho position now was that in the event of a strike, tho public could ot get a bucketful of coal except "t the sweet will of the _ miners. Did the mines belons to the 01 to tho people of Now Zealand P lhnt w tho question. So long as tho piosent law stood the Minister of Jlines would not ave Dower in case of an emergency such as a strike, to allow men who had volunteered to work the mines and extract coal. That was one object of tho new clause.' That was why a similar provision had been adopted in Mro South AVales. It was not tho sole olv iect. There wero occasions; quite apart from strikes, when it might, be desirable for the Jtinister to issue permits. A eold miner could not be put into a coal mine under present conditions Would the House accept the responsibility of leaving the mines under the control ol the mine unions? He could not conceno of aiiv Minister risking life in the coal mines':' But it would be iiossib e under the provision now proposed for the .Minister to put. into a mine, in caso of necessity men who did know something of mining, but idid not possess all the qualifications required by the prosont low The Government should not be left in the position of having to break a law if it made provision to supply coal to the people in case of necessity Tie lnd spoken plainly because lie had been nsk"d to do so. The clause would have •l' s'dutarv effect upon tlio.se who wero disposed lo make trouble at the mines Mr Holland said the Government had not hesitated to do illegal tilings at the. time of the 1913 strike. He- proceeded to refer to "bogus unions." A Safeguard Ottered. Sir William Prater, replying to declarations by Jl r - Holland, that tho introduction of inexperienced men would make for danger in t'tio mines, said that some such provision was necessary to prevent one section of the community from dictating to tho whole of the rest of the community, and saying whether tlic. poople should lmve coal or not. He wou'd, howover, m-ivo to add tho followin" words to the clause:-"Provided that the Jlinistcr shall not exercise this power except, in urgont cast's, and then only on t.lio recommendation of a Judge of the Supreme Court, who may hear such evidence on the question as lie may de,em to bo necessary." , . Jlr. G. Witty said that ho had intended to vote against Llie clause, but after hearing the Jlinistcr's statement mid his proviso, he would vote for it. Ho considered it a . fair proposal, which should be accepted by all parties. jlr, B. Simple said thai the chuiso was not being inserted ill tlio interests of the public, but in tlio interests of the mino owners. Freo labour in mines would endanger the lives of men. tlio nullify disaster had been caused by free labour. He objected to the giving of autocratic power to any man, be ho Judge or Jtinistor to phiv with tho lives of men. jfr. L. Jt. Isitt said that Jlr. Scrapie's apccch had been a clear case of special pleading. Ho denied that all. the anxiety for the lives of miners was monopolised by the five members claiming to represent Labour. In any case, it tho miners gavo the people coal tlicro would bo no free labour, and if there was to be danger it would not be to tho stiiking minors, but to the free lahourcis. Jlr J M'Combs also disapproved of -Win'.' authority or responsibility to_ a ,Tud"P. He would sugCTwi' that the Minister bo not empowered to tako action except with Ihe consent of the Parliament of Mew Zealand. Mr W J- Veitell said that the amendment, was on wrong lines. Tiio Government and Ihe House when considering the safety of workers in mines should not take account of such nllnirs as Strikes Tie npprsfvl th<> w'-nl<> c'au-e. Jlr. 0. W. Russell said that he regretted the introduction of he clause. He was no supporter of strikes or utrikors. but the Jlinisler was askuif, 100 much of tin? House when he od tho sel'lins aside of important wifeguards rid the employment of unskilled men. He did not think a Judge of tho

Supreme Court could determine the ques. lion of safety or otherwise with full knowledge. Sir William Prefer said that there was no thought of taking action under tho clause in normal times, and this was shown clearly in tho clause. R would apply in cases of emergency only. Mr. Semplo said he was not concerned about tho strike-breaking question at all, liecauso he knew that the mines could not bo manned with free labour, but ho was concerned about tho safety of men in mines.

Mr. J. Payne said that the clause was in tho Bill in the interests oi "tho money-bags." Miner and Public.

Sir Joseph Ward said he would not bo a party to allowing untrained men to go down into a mino and endanger theiilives even of their own accord. He would like to see tho clauso withdrawn. Whoever was responsible for the go-slow policy, he thought it was a mistaken policy, antagonistic to the workers' interests. Ho was not expressing these opinions from any party point of view. Sir John Findlay said it might be necessary for a Government to possest* exceptional powers. If tho clauso was merely a strike-breaking clause, which would foreo men to face danger in tho mines, he would not support it. But the power to use tho clauso was being placed in tho hands of a Supremo Court Judge. A position might arise whore tho safety of thousands of people would require the use of a power that would not bo exercised in any ordinary circumstances. A Judge could be trusted not: to act lightly. Mr. It. Semple Raid a Judge should not bo expe?tc-d to take sueli responsibility. T'ao Government should seek tho cause of the unrest among tlie miners' and not seek to crush that unrest with such a clause as wa-s now proposed. If tinGovernment or a Judge tried to force miners to outer tho mines with inex. perienced men, they would refuso to go, and ho himself would be the first to advise them to refuse. Mr. .T. Payne told the House that tho clauso would bo inoperative because the miners would not pormit its operation. It would simply breed trouble.

The Clause Adopted. After further debate the proviso proposed by the Minister was adopted on the voices. Tho clause as amended was carried by 33 votes to 1!). Tho division list was as follows:— Aves (33). Noes (19). Allen Anstey Andcrson Buddo Bollard Fraser, F. Conies Glover Crai"ie Holland Dickson. ,T. M. Jennings Field, W. H. M'Combs Fraser, Xgata Guthrie Pavne Harris Uussell Honaro Seddon Hcrrics Semplo Hino Sidey 1 sitt Smith. S. G. f,eo Talbot Luke Veiteh , M'Callmn WtUfor Marnier Ward Massev A\ilford Myers Nash Newman, E. Nosworthy 1 'arr Reed Rhodes, R.' H.' Rhodes, T. W. Scott Smith, G. H. Smith, R. W. Witty Wright Young The Bill was road a third time without debate, and passed. BOARD OF TRADE BILL. A message was received from the Legislativo Council insisting 011 it»s amend* ments in the Board of Trade Bill, Mr. Masscy moved that tho Houso should ask for a conference, and that tlie managers for tho House should bo tho Hon. W. D. S. Mac Donald, Mr. Hornsby and tho mover. Tho motion was agreed to.

ELECTRIC POWER WORKS, Silt WILLIAM FRASEIt (Minister of Public Works) moved the. second reading of tho Elcctric Power. Works Loan Bill. Ho proceeded to mako a statement regarding tho purchase of the Hora Horn works by tho Government. Ho had liecn criticised, he said, for not taking tlio works compulsorily in terms bf the license. He could hfivo dono this, but the prico would have been higner than if ho mado a bargain. The price under compulsory purchase would have been fixed by arbitration, and the basis of j the price would have been the cost of j erecting such works to-day. He had i told tho Waiiii Company that lid was not prepared to go beyond a certain price Tho company mado an otter which was a high one. Thero were negotiations, and the nricc final!}' agreed upon was .£'212,000. This was about tho prico at which Jlr. Parry had said the works could safely be purchased. Ho behoved j lie had saved <£10,000 by his method of purchase. Ho had made it clenr that lie was buving for tho public and that his first duty''in the supply of power would he to the public. A prico had been fixed for tho supply of power to the company. The prico was 10s. por horse-power per year. • Tlio Waihi Company was going to accept payment for the works in tlebenlures. The agreement was for a period of twenty years. The works were producing about BMO horse-power. The company was to have 2500 kilowatts. He intended to erect transmission lines round by Cambridge, Hamilton, and other centres. Tie could not supply anybody excent the company at present. ;He intendod now to pet into touch with possible consumers. The amou.nt of current available for distribution, if two more turbines were put in, would be. at least (urn" horse-power. This allowed for tho needs, of the comnany and for a suitable reserve Tf tho rountry districts did not require all the power, the snrnlns could b" sent to Auckland. Local bodies in the Waihi and Thames districts were e ready offering to take the power in talk and undertake distribution on their own account. He would not overlook the posoiKie needs of industries. SIR. JOSEPH WARD (Leader of the Opposition) said lie was glad the purchase had boen completed. It ought, to have been undertaken long ago. the station would not be very useful after the Arapum station has b.en completed, and he thought tho JVailn Company .had made a pretty good bargain It had disposed ot works that would have been of no great value to the company a few years hence Sir Joseph Ward asked for information as to the prico at which power could bo supplied to consumers

A Careful Minister. Tho Hon. A. M. MYKRS (Auckland iCast) said that in his opinion the Milliliter of Public Works had inside a good |iar«a.in for the country in the purchase of the Hora Horn works-, tho price wis fair and ''Msonablp. He had been associated wit.U tho Minister in tho negotiations for the purchnso, and lie had been much impifscd wath. the industry and vigilance of the Minister in safeguarding the. interests of the country. llr. G. V. I'KAUCK (Patea) said that he did not specially approve of the acquisition of the little Hora TTora scheme. He would rather have seen tho Aninuw scheme pushed on. It appeared to Inn that uniler the schemes m Proi'° ll » dc f "by tho Minister, Auckland, laianaU and Napier would got nothing Wellington, Palmcrston, and the Uaikato would "Ct al' the current, anil those otliei pi"™ B would not 1* touched for toil years, the Government should press on witl Ai»puni and Waikaromoann in ordc. to supply the whole North Tsln id. When these' hi? works were completed theio wou'd b? no U.--.0 for the Hora Hora T-T POT/AMI (Ohincmiiri) said tint h« the danger that the inireh as e of a small i.la.it might delay the big works, but Hora Horn would e.iwavs be worth its money ns'a stand-by plant in the event of a break down at onv Wt station. „ . . Mr. C. J. PAI11? Ivlen said at l c stioii"iv supported the whole .Mill le could' see no eround for the ieai tluit h™ Horn Hon. M !*"> Piuchasc-d there would be delay in connection with A sTt\ YOUNG (Wnikalo) expressed the strongest approval of the purchase.

Waikaremoana Scheme. Mr. G. HUNTER (Waipawa) said that ho hoped the Minister would press nil with (he surveys preliminary lo the launching of the Waikaremoann scheme. The Hon. A. T. NGATA said Ihnt Ihe Bay of Plenty and Ihe East (.'oast would not bo served either 'by the Arapuni or TLora Horn si-homes. He asked also for the vigorous prosecution of the Waikarenioana scheme. Mr. J. P. LUKE (Wellington North) agreed lliat Ihe Waikarcinoana scheme was highly importanl, lint other works were more important. The Jlangahao scheme.would have earning power directly it was completed. The market for .the current existed already in the city, and ho would liko Hie .Minister to say what amount of power was going lo reach Wellington. About 10,0(10 horse-power was Jioing generated in Wellington now. The Jfangahao scheme was lo provide 25.(100 horse-power, ami by the lime tho station was completed tho city would be able to ah=orl> tho whole quantity. Tie hoped lb" Minister would not hesitate to push ahead with the Jlangahao scheme. Mr. R, M'CALLUM (Wairua.) asked that provision sliould be mado for a scheme at the headwaters of the flullcr River. Mr. W. A. VEITCH (Wanganui) feared Hint Wellington and Palmerston North might use all the Mangaliao power and leave none for Wangamii. The Minister's Reply. Tho Minister, in reply, said ho could not give exact information as to power and prices. The schemes would require to Ix: carried out not on potitical lines but on purely business lines. The Department could not quote prices until it knew what quantity of power was going to be bought. A maximum price could bo fixed, but ho did not intend to hamper tho Department in its negotiations by giving away information in advance, ite could not bind anybody as to the quantity of power to 'be supplied to Wanganui or any other centre. An Electric Power Board, working on business lines, would be ablo to attend to matters of that kind. It. had been clearly understood that after the experimental station at Lake Crt.eridge had proved a success, the needs of Wellington and Auckland should next receive attention. He was working on that line. But 9 start' would be made with tho Waikai'cmoana scheme, which would serve the Bast Coast, as soon as labour was available. An immigration scheme was required to provide the labour. It was not reasonable to state that he would got labour by raising wages. That would simpT.y attract men from olhor industries. The Dominion needed more man power. Works wo-;ld cost more if they were put in hand with inadequate labour. The Bill was put through committee without amendment, read a third time, and passed. COMPANIES AMENDMENT BILL. SIR .TAJIKS ALLEN (Jtinister of Finance) moved the second reading of tho Companies Amendment Bill, receivco' frum tlic Legislative Council. The Bill was put through all stages and passed. HOUSING BILL. The PETJIE MI.XISTKR moved that the amendments made by the Legislative Council in the Housing Hill should be agreed to. The. motion was carried without discussion. Tim Prime Minister said that some important amendments lo the Bill would be brought down by Governor's Message. COUNTIES AMENDMENT BILL. The amendments made by the Legislative Council in the Counties Amendment Bill wero agreed to. Tilt; House rose at O.iO a.m.