WOMEN BARRED

Dominion, Volume 13, Issue 25, 24 October 1919, Page 7

WOMEN BARRED

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL BILL REJECTED

ARGUMENTS M AND AGAINST

AN INTERESTING DEBATE

In- the Legislative Council Sir Francis. Bell -yesterday moved tlie second rending of the Women's Parliamentary 'Eights. Bill, No. 2, which provided that women Bhould be eligible for appointment- to the Upper House. The- Lender of the Council recounted the course of events which had made it necessary to introduce snjh a Bill in the Council instead of passing the Bill that had-originated in the Lover House. It would-, lie said, bo dishonest to contend that the question of admitting women to the House of Representatives ivas identical with the question of admitting them to (ho Council. The difference between the questions l.nl ten emphasised when they were debated by the Lords and the Commons, in the Old Country. In New Zealand we had at the present moment the same position. as. existed at Homo. Bill had been passed allowing women to ait in the representative House,, but not in the appointed ChjuiiJier; It had been said mute recently'that the Lords were .about to pass a Bill in the terms that they had rejected last year. His information was, however, to-the opposite'effect. . The Act of 1914. "Now haying disclaimed the unfair and unreasonable argument that what applies to the representative House necessarily applies here," proceeded Sir Francis Bell, _ I come to the question whether tho Bill is not the logical'sequence of the Bill that has already been pnssed.The answer that has been given is this, and" in sonie ways it is a forcible answer io mynrfunient: As soon as.this Parliament ri"«es an its present session/ the Legislative Council Act, 1914, will be proclaimed and in one year it will become th* law of the land. The Prime Minister has announced that in'another place. That-means that there frill remain n year during which appointments can ■be made to the Council. The Legislative Council Act provides, first, that,after its commencement not leas than one year after its nroclamation, no appointments shall be'made to the Council; and, second, that women inn.v be elected to the Council Wliat this Bill provides for is- the snace of time between the present moment and one year >ieiice—a littlr- no-cthvi rue \mr hence-during which period jnriintment jl". i ma -' O, Xt )lns ljoon answered to that that it is unnecessary to alter (lie constitution of the Council for, that limited period. To that T answer that that period exists, that during that period the power of: appointment remains., and that it does appear to be illosica) that there shnll. be .in the next election a right of the constituencies to elect women and no right of the Government in appoint women.. .'. I advocate the se S? n V,?Sv lu, K' nni ' I shall vote for it." Mr William Hall-Jones considered the Bill to be the complement of the one already passed. The question was harrowed to that of allowing nomination!) ol women for one year. He was in favour ot such nomination being m:-de.

"No Desire for the Change." The Hon. H. L. Michel- slated his intention of .voting against Hip Bill. He-be-lieved that women hnd alwavs exercised the vote m the interests of lovnlty, honesty, temperance,, nml nil that went to .make a people ..hc-my and a ...country great.'As regarded:the question of.women sitting,.in Parliament, -.however, ho believed that there was no general desire on the part of the women for Ihe'su*gestcd change. After it had Ven made possible for. women to,become Jfayoia of towns, onlv one woman had been returned in fifteen yenrs-nnd" the exneriment had not been repeated. Not one woman had been elected to the Brit'sh- House of Commons.' If lie saw women returned to Hie Lower House in New Zealand lie ??«.,. ,)e Prwred to concede that the Bill imder.eonsid°ration was a logical sequence of the Bill recently passed;

Elcctionoerjnq Imputed. - The Hon. 0. Samuel ask"'! whsf was to be (rained bv the proposed leirslntion? He suggested that the Government could have no other object than thatof using its power of appointment fo* electioneering purpose. Hewou'd v-r- with Hie 'now." Tho Hon. the Tender of the Council had ingeniously smrircs'ied that the power of appointment, would be gone within a. year. The tre«'of was to he cut down—m-d ypt forsooth it was to he onmed With tb» arrival of the day when the Second Chamber became elective would, come nni-onmp'ral Government: the Council won''' be ebnlished. He hoped that it \vo<'.\l not lie Abolished: but it was clehr that if flip Act of 1(111' was Coming into forro. the present Bill would not-be of such importance ■to the Council nt it micTit otherwise have been. For, as he hm! sa'd, the. Council .would: cense to p.vst..' To ask the Council at this t : me to w*t> the measure was iwfittin<r, and showed a want of recognition of' the tfrgcut necessities of the Dominion. , . The Hon. G...Tones welcomed the flilL Tho Government, in his opinion, had responded admirably ( to advanced thought. In all moral rpopppts womnn were superior to men. The hon. gont'eman delivered an enthusiastic panerrrie upon the virtues, of the Rentier srx. Parliament, ho said, had disregarded its' social and moral obligations : n the' Iporiclation it had formerly passed. It would have been different if w/'inen had taken their place in the Legislature. Let tho Country Decide. ~T i l t' J 101 !. Tn Hen Hen Tiik'no urged that the country shou.'d be allowed to decide the issue. He believed that n majority of the women of New Zealand would vote against the, prvwjnl ''yit women should ■enter, Parliament."and that a majority of the men would vote in the flame way.' '

The Hon. J. T. Paul asked what rii'hl the Council hnd lo disqunPfv half the population from lipin.tr in if. It was questionable whelh,V,'i> niop cp-.-U! represent the opnosito scv as it would b" represented, by women. Han'titr admitted women to the fi'ancVse. t'vy must in logic and justice admit women to a sharp In the other political ritrltfs of men. TV women had fought for the franchise. Had they not fought for-'t.tW would not have had it to-dav. Touching upon legislative Council reHin. he expired the belief Unit the Norwepian system would he. tried some duv. An argument of the Hon. Mr. SnniM that the Government might appoint women to the Council prior to the qonerai election ivns designed merely to throw dtwt in the eyes of other councillors. Such ennointmente. as were hinted at would be contrary to all modern practice. The Hon. W. Earnsho'v maintained that tho Government had no mandate from the people for the measure tinder discussion. He was against neniiittiiirr women to have a place in Piirl : nnienf. He claimed inevlentitlly that C'e Ca»»cil had had no judication at any time ef the personal opinion of tlm T.cade" nf the Council upon Hie question. Riiprowii'c the country d''l not- e?nr.f ; wnni"ii In th* Lower Hoi-". fh° <"'-v.- : l nv.n',l ],* wit', the ri'k Hi-1 M'P r!n.-ornin»ntmidlt ctnff tin,* r'nnivil with ivom'ii i-. « r J *p nf lb? ponul" '"■ . 1f "•-" ""'' ;■ of t'.o Oovernni"',.' to i-rn" ''v.' 1 >" » " n '"'' in the dviug horn's of <'■<■ -o=v "«-i,..t would have happened, tV"»■*»»-*' •-*■-'. we- !' half of the National Gove;. -,'it hid been women?" asked the hou. fentleman later. No woman, he concluded, should enter the Council until the electors had proved themselves i« favour of women sitting in the reprr,'"iitaHve House.' The Hon. E. Moore briefly endorsed the Hon. Mr. Earnshaw's final ar„?iwient. Ho intended to vote against tho Bill. Tho Hon. J. Grimmond spoke in support of the Bill,

The Division. The Bill was dofeated upon a division by 18 votes to 8. Ayes 8. Aitken Hall-Jones Bell Jones • Fleming Paul Grimmond ' Thomson Noes 18. Barr MacGibbou Earnshaw ■ MacGregor Fisher Patuki Geddis Stewart Gow Simpson Hardy Sinclair Hawke Samuel Harris Te Hen, Heu f Michel Tukino . Moore DEPUTATION TOPrTuE MINISTER FltOM WOMEN'S ORGANISATIONS.; A deputation of representatives of women's orßaiiisations throughout New Zealand waited on the Prime Minister yesterday to offer him their thanks and congratulations for the introduction of tlie Women's Parliamentary Eights Extension Bill, and to urge' that the second instalment of the Bill, that before the Lesnsialivo Council, should be put through if possible. Mr. Downie Stewart, introducing the deputation, said that the object of the deputation was to thank Mr. Massey for what he had done up till now, and to strengthen his hands for any effort he might have to make to get the Bill through the Upper House. It' had been said that the women of New Zealand 'wore not vexercising themselves about thfs-measure, but this was not so. The women were intensely interested in it. Miss N. E. Coad said that their puroose in coming to the Prime Minister was to find out if possible what tho chances were of the women's rights Bill passing the Upper House, and to lay before him the opinion of women on the present situation.' They would like to ask whether this Bill being introduceo' into the Council would get the same measure of support in was generally accorded ,to Government measures in that Chamber. Thev asked the Council to take into consideration the fact that the measure had been passed unanimously by the other Hou=e. Thev knew that the Leader of the Unber- House -was going to take charse of the Bill, and they looked upon him.as a supporter of the Bill, in view of his previous utterances on the subiect. Ml the old arguments about the unsnitabilitv of women -for these duties could not lonser be sustained, As a mat'er of fact, women would' litjve to take a larger part in the governing of the country if some of tlie reforms urgently reouired wore to be properly made. Mrs. A. K; Atkinson said,..that Mr. Mo.'sev had done much more than he ■had'-promised to do in connection with this Bill to 2ive, women the right to sit in Parliament. ' She asked Mr. Mas»ey to tell the'denization something of his on 'he haimcnir.jts in the. Upper House. Thev wished to know also who-, fher the Legislative Council Bill was likely to be nroclnimpd soon, and whether, before tho proclamation, some apniiintmeiits of women would be made to the Tinner House. r rs. Deck also consratulntco' the P''ime ' Minister on having introduced tho Bill, and expressed the hope that the second twrl of it would pass the Legislative Council.' ' ■ .'

Mi-. AWey thanked the denntation->fov congratulation" offered to him The niirt nf the Bill dealing (with the cH-ibil-it.v of women to sit in the Lower Hnii?e wOu'd be passed into law. of a-certainly in the course of a few days. As to the other part, dealing- with the right of women to sit in the Legislative Council, he was not nearly so certain. However, the Bill would be introduced as a Government measure, and possibly this fact would influence tho members of the council to pass it into law. His own share in the legislation he had done as a master of duly.- He had. recognised alwavtf since women had been given the franchise that they should bo given the right to sit'in Parliament so soon as they expressed a wish to do so. : It was very easy to aak that he should use his infludnci'ffith the Legislative Council to set the Bill through. ..He' had the greatest respect for tho Council and for the memberf of it, but if there was a question ol privilege at stake they became minacious at once. He hopeo.' that when Hie second half of the Bill came up'for consideration thev would be in a better frame of mind than they' had been a fortnight ago. The time was not far distant when the Council would be made an elective body. This was actually tho lnw of (he lnnd to-day, but tho operation of the Act had been suspended, mid a promise l lino, been given to tho House that bnfore it became lnw Parliament would have another opportunity of considering it, . His own opinion was that the Bill Would come into operation next year, but it must first como before the House, and he. thought that the Bill might, be nmended by Parliament. It would still remain an elective Bill, but it waa hist possible—for the feeling was growing in this direction—that provision would be made for the nomination of a nropor'-ioii of members of the Legislative Council. Provision was made in tho Bill for tho election of women to the Legislative Council. He hoped thai: women would take advantnge of the ehamre in the, law allowing them to be candidates for Parliament. He. hnd already had a for his snnpnrt. for one woman candidate, ano he had given her a favourable reply. He mentioned that he had been elected first-to the House at the elections at which women hnd fl-st had the vote, and he thought that the women of Franklin had had a great deal to do with keeping h ; m in Parliament ever since. He thanked' the deputation for Ibeir congratulations, and he honed and believed Hint what had been done.would bo for the good of the country-